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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

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    Post  Cpt Caz on Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:39 pm

    Interesting to hear some of your opinions, thanks.

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 24 NOmTmiI

    Not entirely on-topic but probably the best place to post this. Check out the scopes on those rifles. Thermals?

    Btw, guys in the photo are members of the security forces actively serving in the North Caucasus.
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    Post  Regular on Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:12 am

    GarryB wrote:It would not hurt to integrate both weapons, but I suspect the multi calibre AK12SN might have an advantage with SMG, carbine, rifle, and LMG weapons shown already.

    I think the AK12 has better ergonomics than the AEKs we have seen, though to be fair we have not seen many AEK models in recent versions.
    AEK ergonomics were greatly improved
    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 24 Aek97110
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:26 am

    They look german...

    Besides I have read that the balanced recoil mechanism can be tricky and needs care and attention for it to work properly... which doesn't sound soldier proof to me...

    The AK12SN family of weapons sounds more mature and safer in terms of production and use but I am sure selected units could use more complicated rifles if the result is worth it.
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    Post  Regular on Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:02 pm

    It does have HK MP5 look. Why reinvent the wheel? Russian special forces have used HK MP5 and probably they liked thing or two. It looks more Kalashnikov than anything else. Smile
    Weapon maintenance is everyday chore in Russian army. It would be problem in some third world country like Ukraine. I would think Russian soldiers can be trusted sophisticated equipment like electro optical sights or even weapons that require pristine care, like long range sniper rifles. Culture of weapon handling is high as in any modern army.
    I agree that AK-12SN would be optimal rifle for army, but some units could receive AEK rifles along with other specialised weapons, it won't be logistical nightmare. I assume it will be in production in small numbers. Think of Vintorez or similar weapons
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:04 am

    Weapon maintenance is everyday chore in Russian army. It would be problem in some third world country like Ukraine. I would think Russian soldiers can be trusted sophisticated equipment like electro optical sights or even weapons that require pristine care, like long range sniper rifles. Culture of weapon handling is high as in any modern army.

    Don't get me wrong... I am sure no matter how complicated it was they would develop sound training to make sure there were no issues.

    What I wonder about is if the complication is worth the result.

    Multiple hits increase kill probability and firing short bursts with improvements in mechanism design in the AK12 to reduce mass movement and improve stability could result in comparable performance without the complication of gears and balanced recoil mechanisms.

    I agree that AK-12SN would be optimal rifle for army, but some units could receive AEK rifles along with other specialised weapons, it won't be logistical nightmare. I assume it will be in production in small numbers. Think of Vintorez or similar weapons

    I totally agree, though I suspect the AK12SN might become a standard military weapon with the ADS used by VDV and naval infantry, while paramilitary forces might get different weapons like these new bullpups that have been revealed...

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 24 Jode110

    In terms of Army weapons the AK12SN will likely include Vintorez type weapons and PKP and RPK-74 and AK-74 and AKS-74U and Vityaz-SN type weapons.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:45 pm

    Is this the modernized version of the AEK-971 being tested in state trials?

    (top rifle)

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 24 AEK971

    ...btw what's gun at the bottom of the photo?
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    Post  Zivo on Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:59 pm

    Presumably.

    It's an AEK-973, at least I think that's the numerical ID for the 7.62 variant.
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    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:24 pm

    Yep it is AEK-973.

    http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/aek-971-e.html

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 24 Aek971_762

    But i don't like the Stock, i like the AK-12 stock.
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    Post  Zivo on Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:35 pm

    I don't mind telescopic stocks. Generally speaking, they're not as solid as a fixed or side folder, but there are exceptions if it's designed correctly. The advantage telescopic stocks have over side folders is that when they're "in", the stock doesn't interfere with the function or handling of the weapon. They're suited for confined firing positions, clearing rooms, etc.

    Folding stocks are better for troops who ride in vehicles, who keep the weapons folded when not in use, and unfold them when they dismount. So interference from the folded stock isn't a problem.

    The AEK's if purchased would be used by special forces, so telescopic stocks would suit their mission.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:04 am

    Werewolf wrote:But i don't like the Stock, i like the AK-12 stock.

    Werewolf, I think you briefly mentioned that your a veteran of German military forces? Doesn't it seem like the AEK-973 was heavily inspired by Heckler & Koch? Which isn't necessarily a bad thing unless were talking about the notorious heating and reliability issues of the G-36. I think both rifles are excellent and both should be adopted...but for different branches of the Russian military. Like you said the stock is not suited for the Russian army, and soldiers will accommodate better with the AK-12 than they would with AEK-973, so naturally the AK-12 should be chosen over the AEK-973 for the army because it's most similar to the AK-74M that the average soldier is the most experienced with. While that being said the AEK-973 is a rifle of incredibly high quality and is among the best rifles in the world in durability, reliability and accuracy an should naturally still be adopted, but for a different branch of the Russian military, specifically for the Russian internal forces for the very reasons Zivo states:


    Zivo wrote:They're suited for confined firing positions, clearing rooms, etc.

    Folding stocks are better for troops who ride in vehicles, who keep the weapons folded when not in use, and unfold them when they dismount. So interference from the folded stock isn't a problem.

    The AEK's if purchased would be used by special forces, so telescopic stocks would suit their mission.
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    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:35 am

     the stock is not suited for the Russian army, and soldiers will accommodate better with the AK-12 than they would with AEK-973, so naturally the AK-12 should be chosen over the AEK-973 for the army because it's most similar to the AK-74M that the average soldier is the most experienced with. 

    Look, AEK is very similar to AK mechanics too. Rifle stock is just a feature. And yes, it looks like H&K, but I like their style. Rigid stock is better in a hand-to-hand combat, but has no impact on accuracy due to balanced mechanics of AEK (less perceptible recoil)

    Most soldiers wear body armour and no two soldiers are the same size so adapting the length of the stock to suit the individual soldier should make it easier for them to hit their targets and use their rifles for long periods.

    Good point

    BTW there is another version of AEK's stock

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 24 1297709006_1
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:43 pm

    Asf wrote:
    Look, AEK is very similar to AK mechanics too. Rifle stock is just a feature. And yes, it looks like H&K, but I like their style. Rigid stock is better in a hand-to-hand combat, but has no impact on accuracy due to balanced mechanics of AEK (less perceptible recoil)

    Accuracy isn't the problem here (because I already praised the AEK for it's accuracy and it's reduction in recoil), it's weather or not the average soldier will like and be accustomed to a stock that's significantly different from the stocks that are attached to the AK-74, and AK-74M series of rifles that the average soldier has been wielding for nearly 40 years.

    Asf wrote:BTW there is another version of AEK's stock

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 24 1297709006_1

    That's a computer generated image, an actual image of the AEK-973 with a folding stock would be much better.
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    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:21 pm

    Not a problem

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 24 1280px-AEK-97110-copy
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    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:23 pm

    It seems the MoD wanted the picatinny rail for Ratnik. On this pictures there is only standart V-shaped rails. And a diopter sight insted of open one similar to AK-74, I presume



     it's weather or not the average soldier will like and be accustomed to a stock that's significantly different from the stocks that are attached to the AK-74, and AK-74M series

    I don't think is a great issue. There were AKs with folding stocks
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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 24 Ak-74s-steel-body-rk-10-by-dboy-1914-p
    Actually one of the few critic statesment toward AK-74M is what it's stock can't be regulated for different persons and body armor
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    Post  Regular on Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:20 am

    I'm not too sure about those stocks. Something like newer magpul stocks could be better.
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    Post  Zivo on Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:09 am

    Regular wrote:I'm not too sure about those stocks. Something like newer magpul stocks could be better.

    AR stock conversions for AK's are hit or miss. Last time I checked, Magpul doesn't offer a stock with their friction lock technology and a cheek riser, something you NEED if you're using a AK pattern weapon + optics of any kind. I use Magpul gear, I like it a lot, but it has its limitations.



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    Post  Asf on Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:00 am

    Sometimes I wonder how did people fight effectively without all whose "absolutely needed" gear. Civilisation made us weak.Nowadays we loosing wars not because of strategy but because of military budget expences for sport equiment for basic rifles and helicopter nachos delivery right into the trenches.

    I saw youtube vids about NATO soldiers in Afghanistan - they just spray bullets into an area because the need of fire suppression or due to panic just like a century ago. Are all those regulated stocks and staff realy that needed or it's just for comfort of contract jarheads who fetishize military gear?

    Just call me conservative, but I prefer reliable men with old AKs, a good fire support man and a good plan of advance rather than wannabe machos equipped to the teeth who shoot on sight, get nervous under fire and looses discipline if there are no porn journals and ice cream.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:29 am

    A lot of bits and bobs are just to make things easier... a nice red dot sight for instance.

    Most of the torches and front grips and special 3 point slings is just extra weight to carry.

    I do like a good suppressor though.
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    Post  Zivo on Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:33 pm

    Asf wrote:Sometimes I wonder how did people fight effectively without all whose "absolutely needed" gear. Civilisation made us weak.Nowadays we loosing wars not because of strategy but because of military budget expences for sport equiment for basic rifles and helicopter nachos delivery right into the trenches.

    I saw youtube vids about NATO soldiers in Afghanistan - they just spray bullets into an area because the need of fire suppression or due to panic just like a century ago. Are all those regulated stocks and staff realy that needed or it's just for comfort of contract jarheads who fetishize military gear?

    Just call me conservative, but I prefer reliable men with old AKs, a good fire support man and a good plan of advance rather than wannabe machos equipped to the teeth who shoot on sight, get nervous under fire and looses discipline if there are no porn journals and ice cream.


    'merica. If you don't like our barbie guns, you can get out.   Laughing

    I am certain I'm not the only tall person in the world with long arms, and prefer a stock that "fits". In this day and age, there's no reason a newly designed rifle shouldn't be adjustable for each individual user.


    Don't let the $1000 a piece laser-cut tier one operator gucci accessories and other crap push you away from Eugene Stoner's contributions to rifle design.
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    Post  Asf on Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:13 pm

    And what wars that would be Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 24 Icon_biggrin ?  

    Iraq and Afghanistan? Relatively small loses but still they are viewed as a defeat because lots of money are thrown into nothingness. Bearded half barbaric insurgents with non-licence AK copies are much more cost-effective in terms of assymetcric warfare than high-quality american jarheads with UAVs. Because then you kill a couple of those guys with more than 100K $ rocket you still loose the war of attriction.

    No, mosin nagant with bayonet is only thing soldier needs.

    A halberd. F**k those bullet-sprayers, they just waste the goverment's money!

    Seriously, an assault rifle gives a soldier serious innate advantage over the mosin-armed one, and custom gear for assaul rifle dosen't. It isn't a sniper rifle and isn't designed for sharpshooting , so the stock, for example, have a little impact on real combat accuracy imho, and even this impact has no actual benefit as a modern military unit already has wide array of specfic and costly tools for their job. For example, every motorised infantry squad has high calibre precise "sniper rifle" in a shape of an autocannon and a designated marksman with at least SVD, why would it need every soldier to have a slightly increased chance of sniping an insurgent in the eye like if it was a squirrel hunt in siberian taiga? Basic rifle gonna do a basic rifle things, no?

    Would You trust a conscript?

    I dosen't matter concript or not. I wouldn't trust any man more if he has a fancy gear.

    What good plan of advance?

    My pitiful English skills let me down sometime. What is an exact term for a plan of some unit's advance during an offensive? I meant good tactics is superior to the equipment.
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    Post  Asf on Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:45 pm

    When it comes to training US troops are probably the best trained in the world. 

    Look, it has no relation to my post. There are many "jarheads" (let's just call them fanboys) in the Russian army and among "chairborne" military experts who think themselves rangers, marines or something and are eager to buy fancy gear because of fashion. I don't even think they see the difference between a US marine and a national guardsman on a picture, they most likely refer to a "soldier of the US army". Dunno, it's like a cargo cult of some sort. I've read an article not a long time ago which stated the syrian army has no chances to win the war because their soldiers aren't equipped with knee guards. I'm not kidding. It was a true unadequate thing, but people want to copy the US army in some strange way. You know, US soldiers wear knee guards and ballistic googles, we need them too! There is no way to fight without them! Like a bunch of our economists who can copy only the most stupid western ideas not understanding what is really important and what isn't.
    It's their business actually, but there are plenty of companies who want to make profit on lobbying "absolute neccesary modern gear" to the Army. It's better to save the budget's money for really helpful things like a IR sights. Really good sight give you advantage, a custom folding stock for your basic rifle gives you a comfort maybe or slight increase of accuracy in a firing range, makes you look like a badass high-end commando, but not a true advantage. 

    To be all fair I don't know where You get all porn journals and icecream thing, soldiers are more interested in drugs when they are on deployment.

    I wasn't speaking literally. Modern soldiers require more spendings than a century ago thanks to consumer society progress. You wouldn't want to fight and risk his life far from home if you won't have all those small joys he had at home?
    Drugs aren't supplied officially to an army, so soldiers can't blame their command for a drug shortage.


    Last edited by Asf on Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  Asf on Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:01 pm

    WTF??? Tell me what is this?

    What do you mean? A shovel throwing?  Smile It's a show mostly like a VDV ninjas, who breaks bricks and bottles with their heads.

    Roll... Wtf? Running and shooting. Nice. Look how they storm the building.

    You really think this is a true excercises? I know how those films are made: TV men come and tell you: "Do something interesting, we need action!" Once I was supposed to wave hands over a nice-looking blueprint as if I was showing something to my colleagues just like it's a typical design engineer work day. It seemed stupid too.

    Why they are running like this? So hastily like high on speed?

    I doubt it's a first take cameramen made them to do. Plus they're running in a deep snow in cubersome winter clothings.

    Running and shooting. 

    Why so much western complains about soviet and russian soldiers running and shooting at the same time? If it was a real combat, those naval infantrymen would been stopped by a single MG in the building lacking long range fire support, but still if you need to cross a field of fire it's better to shoot in return hoping for a lucky shot or for small supression than just run into jaws of hell. It has a psychological effect mostly, but still

    How do You even call this formation? Who is covering what? 

    It's a line formation, a bit tight imho. Nobody seems to covering nothing (they just run in pairs - one running, one sitting) as it seems like a couple of out of daily duty soldiers who was ordered to run in front of a camera.
    BTW, I've heard a lot of runt about the line formation being too rubbish in a modern combat, but in a given situation with an MG on a higher ground, an open field and no support (not even MG) there in nothing better.

    use their AKs as Bolt action rifles.

    What do you mean?
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:00 pm

    but people want to copy the US army in some strange way.

    I appreciate what you are saying and I don't like copying for copyings sake.

    What I think here is that people look at the AK12 and think it has been turned into an AR.

    This is really not true.

    They simply had a good hard look at all the perceived and real problems with the AK series, plus all its good points and superior areas of design and tried to correct the errors without taking away from the good features.

    I don't know because I have never tried them myself... (My test sample didn't make it all the way to my address... I must speak to someone at Izhmash/Kalashnikov about that...) but the changes seem to be sensible and practical and add up to make the rifle easier to use and more effective.

    It is not revolutionary, but it is clearly more than just rails and a big magazine.

    I know with my SLR (L1A1/FN FAL) that having a cocking handle on the left side is handy, but on the AK12 it can be moved left or right. I know having the fire selector/safety within easy reach of my thumb is also useful.

    A conventional rifle design I can shoot left or right very easily is also a plus for me.

    However as a civilian hunter the full auto and 3 shot burst are meaningless, though a multi calibre version is very interesting and something I will be looking for in the future... in terms of cost having a rifle in 7.62 x 39mm and other calibres including shotgun calibres makes a lot of sense... the rifle itself will probably be about $1,500 to $2,000, but new barrels/calibre kits will likely be $500-$800, so instead of two grand a rifle I can have several calibres and indeed barrel lengths for rather less. A long barrel 7.62 x 39mm is not hugely useful as the round generally does not rely on velocity for effect, but a .223 calibre model... or even better a 5.45mm version with a long barrel really appeals to me.
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    Post  Asf on Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:38 pm

    It is not revolutionary, but it is clearly more than just rails and a big magazine.

    Yes, it's what I'm saying. AK-12 looks like an upgrade over a general soviet assault rifle. And AEK has a unique feature. It already has a diopter sight, picatinny rail, short-burst selector, ect, plus the balanced mechanics. In what sence it is inferior to AK-12?
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:07 am

    Asf wrote:
    It is not revolutionary, but it is clearly more than just rails and a big magazine.

    Yes, it's what I'm saying. AK-12 looks like an upgrade over a general soviet assault rifle. And AEK has a unique feature. It already has a diopter sight, picatinny rail, short-burst selector, ect, plus the balanced mechanics. In what sence it is inferior to AK-12?

    I don't think either system is truly inferior over the other, it's more like a mother (Russian MOD) having to pick between their children to find their favorite child.

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