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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:49 am

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:55 am

    The apparent curve of the magazine is interesting... especially considering it should be in 5.45mm calibre.

    Note the curve of a mag is based on the shape of the cartridge case. A conical shape means you are putting a small round through a big hole so less resistance in the chamber because after it has moved a few mms even if the case expanded during the shot it should still come out fine. The main problem is that it wont stack vertically and the more angled the case walls the greater the curve required to store the ammo.

    The 5.56 and 7.62 x 51mm NATO both have nearly parallel walls so can stack in a near vertical magazine. The AK 7.62 x 39mm round requires quite a curved mag because the neck of the round near the bullet is narrower than the diameter at the base of the round.

    This very curved mag seems strange as the 5.45mm case is fairly parallel, so it might be a different calibre.
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    Post  njb1 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:35 pm

    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=506&p=30

    Take a look at this...looks like its an up graded AK103 in 7.62x39mm , new stock , compensator , front hand gaurd , rail on top , front & rear sights.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:07 pm

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:52 am

    So it is pretty clear it is in 7.62 x 39mm calibre.

    I wonder if they are working on hotter loads for the old AK round?

    The 122 grain bullet at about 710m/s had good penetration, but the new US rounds like the Grendal and others use a smaller calibre bullet in a similar weight range travelling a little faster in the 850m/s range to extend useful range into the 600m-800m field.

    The most popular 7.62 x 39mm round for the AK seems to be the 154 grain that leaves the muzzle at about 625m/s... with new more powerful propellent launching the 154 grain bullet at perhaps 850m/s its performance could be very similar to the 7.62 x 54R cartridge out to 800m or so.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:08 pm

    It's a 5.45x39 AK-12. They are working on a drum for the 5.45x39 AK-12.


    GarryB wrote:So it is pretty clear it is in 7.62 x 39mm calibre.

    I wonder if they are working on hotter loads for the old AK round?

    The 122 grain bullet at about 710m/s had good penetration, but the new US rounds like the Grendal and others use a smaller calibre bullet in a similar weight range travelling a little faster in the 850m/s range to extend useful range into the 600m-800m field.

    The most popular 7.62 x 39mm round for the AK seems to be the 154 grain that leaves the muzzle at about 625m/s... with new more powerful propellent launching the 154 grain bullet at perhaps 850m/s its performance could be very similar to the 7.62 x 54R cartridge out to 800m or so.
    It's quite an interesting looking AK variant. I doubt it's an AK-12. I'm betting it's a modified AK-109 perhaps, or a modified AK-104. It's interesting they are still tinkering with the 7.62x39.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:49 am

    Video with English subtitles about the VSS.

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:11 am

    Well that is an interesting post Swat pointman... it says that Izhmash must release 2-3 new products each year... that is interesting.

    Nice vid BTW.
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    Post  Zivo on Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:44 am

    I've only ever seen pictures the VKS until now, thanks for the video.

    I'm kind of surprised how well the integrated suppressor works. Any idea how many are in service? I've seen lots of FSB footage in Chechnya, Dagestan, etc. and have never even seen the rifle.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:48 am

    I suspect because of the effective range of the weapon that the operators of such weapons would not need to operate near the cameras and because of the nature of their work they would definitely avoid exposure to cameras.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:33 pm

    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsru.com%2Frussia%2F12feb2013%2Fak_12.html

    This article is about the AEK being trialed. Apparently there were some problems with it in testing. Considering it's been around for years, it shouldn't be that way. And if the translation is correct, it talks about a new cartridge being developed for the AEK. It also talks about a new and improved loading of the 5.45mm is being issued to the Russian army that is described as having a "modified center of gravity".
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:36 am

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 20 Saiga_mk_107-660x216
    Izhmash will debut the long anticipated Saiga MK-107 at the IWA show in Germany tomorrow. This gun is the first ever civilian-legal variant of the AK-107 / AK-108 with its famous balanced recoil system.

    The balanced recoil system moves a counter weight forward when it pushes the piston/bolt carrier back. This counteracts the force of the bolt carrier slamming against the rear of the receiver and against the chamber. The animation below demonstrates how it works.The MK-107 also features some improvements over the original AK-107. The standard AK charging handle has been replaced with a rounded, more ergonomic, handle. The iconic AK selector switch has been replaced with a button-style safety above the trigger guard. The AR-15 syle pistol grip and stock are made by Israeli firm CAA Tactical. Also unlike the original AK-107, the MK-107 features a full length top picatinny rail.

    In its current form it could not be exported to the USA but I expect we will see it arrive in the near future. It could be imported a sporterized form (no pistol grip), or imported as a parts kit with the final manufacturing done stateside. This gun would fly off the shelves!
    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/03/06/saiga-mk-107-the-civilian-ak-107-with-balanced-recoil-arrives/
    At the moment, this is only going to be marketed to civilians. It's possible they might market a select fire version to the Russian military or other countries, but I doubt it. Since it seems they are putting all their bets on the AK-12 for the military markets. Quite interesting though.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:41 am

    At the moment, this is only going to be marketed to civilians. It's possible they might market a select fire version to the Russian military or other countries, but I doubt it. Since it seems they are putting all their bets on the AK-12 for the military markets. Quite interesting though.

    Interesting but missing a few key features that I liked about the AK12 that would be relevant to a civilian shooter.

    They have clearly modified the mag well to make inserting mags easier, and the mag release lever is huge.
    The pistol grip looks more comfortable, but not otherwise very important, while the buttstock looks very AR like but its most important feature is that it is adjustable for reach so you can change the length of pull if you have heavy or light clothing on.

    The top cover has the new latch mount and it has rails all over it for adding stuff.

    The only real change is the new safety... I guess they decided a complex selector wasn't needed if you only need two options (safe and fire).

    I would have thought the new cocking lever that could be swapped from one side to the other would have been considered, though with that photo we can't tell if the cocking handle can be swapped to the left side or not.

    The balanced recoil method should make it much smoother to fire... even in single shot but it lacks the more user friendly selector and cocking handle of the AK12 which I think would have been appreciated by civilian shooters.

    Doesn't seem to have bolt hold open capacity either.

    Without the balanced recoil aspect this is largely a modified AK with aftermarket grips and rails, mag well adapter and extended mag release with a new safety selector.

    Wouldn't say no to testing one, but wouldn't walk through fire to get one either... unless it is a multi calibre weapon (ie 9 x 39/7.62 x 39/5.45 x 39/5.56 x 45).

    Just looking at the angle of the mag in the image it is 5.45mm.

    Will be interesting to see what they release at the show...
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    At the moment, this is only going to be marketed to civilians. It's possible they might market a select fire version to the Russian military or other countries, but I doubt it. Since it seems they are putting all their bets on the AK-12 for the military markets. Quite interesting though.

    Interesting but missing a few key features that I liked about the AK12 that would be relevant to a civilian shooter.

    They have clearly modified the mag well to make inserting mags easier, and the mag release lever is huge.
    The pistol grip looks more comfortable, but not otherwise very important, while the buttstock looks very AR like but its most important feature is that it is adjustable for reach so you can change the length of pull if you have heavy or light clothing on.

    The top cover has the new latch mount and it has rails all over it for adding stuff.

    The only real change is the new safety... I guess they decided a complex selector wasn't needed if you only need two options (safe and fire).

    I would have thought the new cocking lever that could be swapped from one side to the other would have been considered, though with that photo we can't tell if the cocking handle can be swapped to the left side or not.

    The balanced recoil method should make it much smoother to fire... even in single shot but it lacks the more user friendly selector and cocking handle of the AK12 which I think would have been appreciated by civilian shooters.

    Doesn't seem to have bolt hold open capacity either.

    Without the balanced recoil aspect this is largely a modified AK with aftermarket grips and rails, mag well adapter and extended mag release with a new safety selector.

    Wouldn't say no to testing one, but wouldn't walk through fire to get one either... unless it is a multi calibre weapon (ie 9 x 39/7.62 x 39/5.45 x 39/5.56 x 45).

    Just looking at the angle of the mag in the image it is 5.45mm.

    Will be interesting to see what they release at the show...
    They definetely set up it to appeal to the US market. The safety is probably a thumb safety on the left side. The button above the trigger might be a manual BHO? I guess the reversable cocking lever was deemed less necessary. It's just a semi auto only AK-107 with rails and different furniture, they look like they are keeping it simple to avoid problems. The AK-12 is the more ambitious project I believe. The blown up picture actually says 5.56x45 http://www.izhmash.ru/pix/news/saiga_mk_107.jpg I'll probably get one with along with the AK-12, since I love AK's so much. It would be smarter for them to make the 5.56x45 AK-107 accept AR15 magazines. That would have huge prospects on the USA civilian market.
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    Post  Zivo on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:05 am

    Too bad it will be neutered if it's imported.

    Izhmash should just create an "Izhmash U.S.A." division and manufacturer their weapons over here to bypass all the import bull.

    I'm a big fan of authentic con-converted weapons of soviet/russian origin.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:31 am

    Zivo wrote:Too bad it will be neutered if it's imported.

    Izhmash should just create an "Izhmash U.S.A." division and manufacturer their weapons over here to bypass all the import bull.

    I'm a big fan of authentic con-converted weapons of soviet/russian origin.
    Arsenal,fime, or some other company will probably convert them to a non neutered state.
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    Post  Zivo on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:07 am

    Fingers crossed for an easy conversion, but the US "sporter" version will probably need a significant amount of investment to get it too look like the original. If they can at all considering 922r.

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 20 Saiga_mk_107-660x216

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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:12 am

    Zivo wrote:Fingers crossed for an easy conversion, but the US "sporter" version will probably need a significant amount of investment to get it too look like the original. If they can at all considering 922r.

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 20 Saiga_mk_107-660x216

    It shouldn't be that much different from what they do with the SGL21.
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    Post  Zivo on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:40 am

    Without knowing what the import version looks like it will be hard to tell what needs to be fixed. Aside from the hand guard and pistol grip, I doubt the other parts will be easily attainable, 922r is going to make a correct restoration a challenge.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:02 am

    The safety is probably a thumb safety on the left side. The button above the trigger might be a manual BHO?

    In the text that came with the photo: "The iconic AK selector switch has been replaced with a button-style safety above the trigger guard. "

    Which suggests the large button above the pistol grip is a safety button to replace the safety/selector lever.

    The blown up picture actually says 5.56x45

    Which would explain the AR type buttstock and pistol grip...

    It would be smarter for them to make the 5.56x45 AK-107 accept AR15 magazines. That would have huge prospects on the USA civilian market.

    I agree and disagree... it would be excellent for the shooter in terms of commonality and low cost mags, but I suspect there would be a huge penalty in terms of reliability and Izhmash would not earn money from sales of Mags.

    For me, a sporterised model needs a fixed rather than folding stock so a thumbhole stock with adjustable length and cheek piece would be amongst the changes I would want.

    I liked the thumb selector/safety even with only two positions instead of four on the military model, and the ability to change the side the cocking handle resides was a good idea to me too.

    The balanced recoil mechanism is a complication that I would have to fire the AK12 and AK107 to see if it is worth it as it will likely complicate assembly and cleaning.

    I am just looking forward to seeing what they reveal at this IWA Show... I suspect if I were in their shoes I would aim at least two rifles at the huge US market with one being AR like (ie low recoil, good paper ergonomics) and the other to look like the AK the Russian military might adopt to cover both sides of the market... both at half the price of an AR.

    A third rifle that is multicalibre, and ergonomic that is more expensive but where you can buy the calibre kits so that it can replace several other rifles and therefore be worth the money.

    The modular nature of that third rifle could mean that you have a small (rimfire and small calibre like .22 Hornet), a medium (222, 223, 5.45mm, 7.62 x 39, 9 x 39mm 6.8mm etc) rifle, and a large rifle (308, 7mm magnum, 338 LM etc.).

    The modular rifle could be designed to have adaptors to use different magazines... ie in 223 you could have a NATO standard adapter for M16 mags, or AUG adapter for Steyr AUG mags, while the 7.62mm NATO rifle could have adapters for M14 mags, FN FAL mags, and G3 mags etc.


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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:11 am

    I see on their site they have the new rifle Vulture, which is a semi auto equivalent of the Sobol/SM-2 in .22lr.

    Would love to see them develop a Bars-4 in 7.62 x 39mm that can take standard AK magazines. Right now on the New Zealand market there are Czech rifles in 7.62 x 39mm and Chinese rifles in that calibre in bolt action... and that is pretty much it.

    We don't really have any dangerous game here so it is ideal for deer and goats and wallabies.

    Being a short cartridge the rifles can be smaller and lighter than heavier rounds like the 308 winchester or 303.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:10 am

    I think that's just an error by the author. I don't think that's the safety. They will probably do the AR look for all USA models. The AR magazines never were known for their reliability. There might be penalities in reliability, but I'm not sure. There was a recent review on a USA converted Saiga .223 to take AR magazines, and it seemed quite reliable. If you look at it this way, many people might not buy the rifle in the first place if the rifle can't take AR15 magazines. In semi auto only mode, I imagine it would be difficult to see a difference. I imagine they will make changes to various markets around the world to make them legal for sale there.

    The Australians actually made a sporter enfield action in 7.62x39 that took AK magazines I believe. I use to own a savage bolt action in 7.62x39, very accurate. I don't carry my guns in the field, but I guess for a bench rest shooter like myself, it was hard to justify a 7.62x39 bolt action. The 7.62x39 seems to have the most benefit in autoloaders in my eyes.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:55 am

    In semi auto only mode, I imagine it would be difficult to see a difference. I imagine they will make changes to various markets around the world to make them legal for sale there.

    I remember reading one of the failings of western rifles was cheap M16 magazines... even the SA80 suffered from them, as they have very thin lips and any damage made them very unreliable.

    In comparison the feed lips on an AK mag are thick steel, rather than thin Aluminium and would be rather more difficult to damage.

    If they have any sense they will customise their products to the various markets to make them as desirable as possible. Of course one of the best ways to make not using standard M16 mags not a problem is to sell 223 AK mags really really cheap.


    Of course buying decent M16 mags and then looking after them, I suspect they should be fine... Hunters don't die if they can't shoot every time, so reliability is not as important... unless you have a bear charging you...

    I think that's just an error by the author. I don't think that's the safety.

    I have looked really closely at that enlarged photo you linked to and it pretty much has to be it... there is no safety selector arm... I suspect it is a push through button... pushed in from the left is fire and pushed in from the right is safe so you should be able to push it through with your thumb of your trigger hand (right handed) to make it ready to fire.

    The location (near the trigger mechanism makes it ideal for a safety and not so good for bolt release).

    Note also looking closely at that enlarged photo you posted a link to you can see right through the rear receiver slot for the cocking handle... you can see the white background and the hammer in its raised (fired) position.

    This tells me that the cocking handle must have an open slot on both sides so the cocking handle therefore can clearly be swapped from left to right as there is a slot down the receiver for it to move during firing... hurrah!

    I suspect the metal guard above the cocking handle visible in the picture stays where it is and the rifle ejects on the opposite side to where the handle is positioned, so only one side is "open", which should reduce the amount of dirt and dust that can get into the mechanism with both sides of the receiver open for bullet extraction and cocking handle movement.

    The 7.62x39 seems to have the most benefit in autoloaders in my eyes.

    That is a common belief, but in my opinion that is not totally true.

    Most rifles benefit in terms of weight and size by being made shorter. The 7.62 x 39mm cartridge allows a much shorter action, which means the rifle is lighter and more compact. The round does not rely on high velocity for effect so a shorter barrel does not effect performance in any drastic way but further adds to the compact and handy nature of the weapon designed for it.

    The Aussies realised this fairly quickly, and their production facilities for producing Lee Enfield rifles were ideal for making AK calibre rifles because the 7.62 x 39mm round is actually a .311 calibre cartridge... exactly the same as the .303.

    The result of adopting the 303 action (smooth and familiar to the Empire) with the commie round (compact and effective enough over shorter ranges) results in a very good little rifle that is cheap to fire as the ammo is easily available and cheap... unlike 303 ammo here.

    You certainly can't hunt elephants with it... but the Zoo keepers in NZ get upset with hunters entering their parks anyway... Smile

    I just want a Russian rifle.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:09 am

    So assuming the crossbolt button is the safety, and the cocking handle can be swapped for left or right side activation, this rifle seems to have most of the features of the AK12 in a design that has a balanced recoil mechanism that the AK12 does not have.

    Add a calibre changing mechanism and this would be the ideal rifle for civilians.

    For the military obviously the 4 position selector is better as it offers full auto and 3 round burst capacity and by moving the cocking handle forward there are no open slots in the rear receiver for dirt and dust to get in, but otherwise it looks like a much better rifle than I initially thought it was... I have started saving up... Smile

    I would just need one with shorter mags and a stock without a pistol grip.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:05 am

    "I remember reading one of the failings of western rifles was cheap M16 magazines... even the SA80 suffered from them, as they have very thin lips and any damage made them very unreliable.

    In comparison the feed lips on an AK mag are thick steel, rather than thin Aluminium and would be rather more difficult to damage.

    If they have any sense they will customise their products to the various markets to make them as desirable as possible. Of course one of the best ways to make not using standard M16 mags not a problem is to sell 223 AK mags really really cheap.


    Of course buying decent M16 mags and then looking after them, I suspect they should be fine... Hunters don't die if they can't shoot every time, so reliability is not as important... unless you have a bear charging you..."
    M16 magazines have improved quite a bit. Though they aren't standardized, polymer PMAG's have are quite an improvement over the original aluminum GI mags in durability. If they are as reliable as an AK-74 mag, I'm not sure. I suppose that button is the safety.


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