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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:21 am

    I looked up the Baryshev rifle on world guns and it had an interesting little article here:

    http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/baryshev-ab-762-avb-762-e.html

    It seems the design is from the 1960s and its main advantage is low recoil... even using very powerful rounds.
    Its main problems were lack of accuracy in single shot mode and not so great reliability.

    I would think the burst fire accuracy would make it ideal for a light machinegun in a full rifle calibre like the PKP (Pecheneg), but reliability issues make it rather less desirable.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:25 pm

    The more I look at the gas piston the more it looks like the short rail mount on the side of the stock.

    Venting hot gas directly up into the line of sight would not be the best idea the more I think about it.

    The new muzzle attachment that allows NATO standard rifle grenades to be fired has renewed my interest in rifle grenades...

    Earlier on they also mentioned that the new AK-200 will have different barrel lengths for different roles.

    I would think that their decision that the SAW role be taken by the Pecheneg (PKP) will not change and that any LMG model of the AK-200/AK-12 will need to be the heavy version in 7.62 x 51 and perhaps 6 x 49mm calibre.

    The Russians have decided that while a LMG is a good idea that small calibre 5.45/5.56mm weapons have limited range... often shorter than rifle range in the case of the Minimi that has a shorter barrel in most versions used in the west. The RPK-74 on the other hand does extend the range of fire as its barrel is longer than standard rifle length weapons, but the Russians still felt it lacked range and power, so the solution is the return to the belt fed PKP (Pecheneg).

    This means that while the Russian SAW is bigger and much much heavier than the western equivalent, it is also much more powerful and with an effective range that is 4-5 times greater than the western equivalent.

    I have seen sources that claim that in British use they have decided that the FN Minimi with the short paratroop barrel has an effective range of 200m. The 7.62 x 54mm cartridge in what is basically a GPMG with a fixed barrel is effective to 800-1,000m or more.

    In a new more modern calibre I would expect the effective range to remain the same or perhaps extend slightly further with a lighter round that is easier load/store.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:31 am

    Any Russian speakers care to translate some of the comments on this poster:

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 12 Ak_12_10

    Sorry that it is so blurry.

    The things I am interested in knowing that this chart might reveal is, what does the caption that is pointing to the iron sight say, and also the caption with the line pointing to where the cocking handle is...

    And all the other ones... Smile
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    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:32 am

    I can read Russian, but my level of comprehesion in that language is limited cry

    I think you might like this new preparation:
    http://talks.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/005662/5662762.jpg
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:19 am

    Interesting... thanks for posting...

    It seems there are two different lower stocks... presumably the smooth one for when the under barrel grenade launcher is attached.

    This is kinda strange... you'd think they would make the lower stock with rail mounts compatible with the under barrel grenade launcher... just so they didn't need to lower stock types.

    Also the upper rifle appears to be a balanced recoil model, but it could just as easily be the short barrel carbine version for special forces troops rather than a real separate prototype with a balance recoil system... that would of course require a redesigned bolt carrier mechanism.

    It shows two bolts and bolt carriers, one from the new AK and the other from the old AK-74M.

    The view of the other side of the rifle at the bottom is the most interesting as it shows where the cocking handle is, and the blank on the other side suggests it is reversible... though not rapidly by simply rotating it as I suggested earlier.

    I am starting to really like it actually.

    Especially if it is issued with the small scope in the top left corner as standard.

    There is little point in making lots of changes and improving rifling and ammo to increase effective range to 400-600m range or so without adding optics... which greatly simplifying shooting.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:26 am

    Garry,

    Note that this presentation is not official. It was created by a gun buff.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:30 am

    And some interesting news from IZHMASH today:

    US Police to Buy IZHMASH Shotguns

    Izhmash, the manufacturer of the legendary Kalshnikov AK-47, will supply Saiga-12 semi-automatic smoothbore shotguns to a number of police forces in the U.S., Izhmash reported on its web site on Tuesday.

    The contracts were signed at the Shot Show exhibition in Las Vegas on January 17-20. “The first Saiga-12 deliveries to U.S. law enforcement were already made in January 2012,” Izhmash General Director Maxim Kuzyuk said.

    At the exhibition, Izhmash also signed an agreement on exclusive imports to the U.S. market with Russian Weapon Company and an agreement with Fime Group as Izhmash’s partner for manufacturing classic firearm models.

    Shot Show also provided an opportunity for buyers from Central American countries to sign contracts on direct delivery of Izhmash sporting and hunting weapons for the first time. Previously they had only been able to buy Izhmash products via intermediaries in the U.S.

    "The results of the exhibition are inspiring. The American market in non-military weapons is booming. We project a 20 percent increase in deliveries this year," Kuzyuk said.

    Source: http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120131/171045859.html
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:49 pm

    So if sales are expanding why all this doom and gloom about the end of the Kalashnikov?

    AFAIK Cuba is signing up for its ammunition industry to be upgraded to the standard that Venezuela got, and they will likely want a rifle factory to make AK-103s too in the near future.

    BTW those photos might have been put together by a gun buff the the reverse side view showing the cocking handle and the top view with the shortened barrel look realistic enough to be real photos.

    If they are photoshop jobs then they are probably the most realistic views of what the actual rifles will be like based on available information.
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    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:44 pm

    AK-12

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171916
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:44 am

    Thanks for that Austin....

    With the clearer view, note in the bottom right corner where it compares the AK-12 with the AK-74M it has a section comparing weights of magazines and it has for the AK-74M a 30 round mag, but for the AK-12 a 30 round mag, a 60 round mag, and a 95 round mag!

    I presume the latter is a flat horizontal drum design they have been working on. It doesn't protrude down as far as the 30 round mag so you can get down lower and if using and RPK-74 with a bipod it doesn't keep hitting the ground so much.

    Other figures of interest show the new rifle is slightly longer overall at 945mm, compared to 943mm, and with the stock folded the 725mm of the AK-12 is longer than the 700mm of the older rifle, but what I find interesting is the rate of fire is given as 600 rpm for both rifles but 1,000rpm also for the AK-12.

    Perhaps it fires its 3 round burst at the higher rate of 1,000rpm???

    Or is that range... with the 1,000m for the 7.62 x 51mm calibre model?

    I don't really know...
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:12 pm

    I think it is 600 and 1,000 rpm.

    Also on the poster there what appears to be an oval button on the side of the piece behind the magazine on the magazine release mechanism and after looking up the label the quick and dirty translation said "Stop shutter", which I assume means bolt hold open button... which hasn't been mentioned so far.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:48 am

    Sorry, I can't find a photo of the 95 round drum... I had one of a 90 round experimental drum they have showed in the past.

    If you think of a standard drum shape like that used with a PPSh-41 SMG and then lay it flat so from the side it looks like a rectangle and from above it looks like a disk.

    Then take a short 5 round AK mag and attach it to the top of the drum so the drum itself is still horizontal with the rounds pointing forward directly below the mag well, but pointing towards the centre of the drum all the way around.

    The result is that the drum can hold lots of rounds but does not stick down below the weapon as far as a standard 30 round mag.
    It protrudes forward and to the sides like a drum, but allows a lower firing position than even the 30 round mag while carrying in this case more than 3 times the number of rounds (95).

    Quite clever.

    Of course it is also possible that the 95 round mag is just a quad stack 45 round mag with slightly more capacity than double, but it would be a very long mag that would run the risk of monopoding while firing.
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    Post  NationalRus on Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:52 pm

    this thing is a f**** farce

    revolutionary my ass, moded litghtly rebuild AK-74M with picatinny rails
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:50 pm

    Who said it was going to be revolutionary?

    This is not the rifle equivalent of Armata or PAK FA or PAK DA.

    This is an extreme upgrade of the existing system designed to take care of all its obvious flaws and problems to make the best of what they have without a complete redesign from scratch.

    This is a T-90AM or Su-35/Mig-35 or a Tu-22M3M/Tu-160M/Tu-95MS16M.

    It has not turned into an AR, but it has taken some western features that make it more useful, but kept the things that made the AK what it is.

    Complaints about the AK have been short iron sight base, lack of a peep iron sight, difficult to fit optics to, no bolt hold open option, controls on the wrong side of the gun and not ambidextrous, folding stock not adjustible in length for when wearing body armour, hard to put tacticrap on...

    Not only have they fixed all that but they also added rifle grenade launcher capability and compatibility with all existing NATO standard rifle grenades, they have added a three round burst capability, they have looked at soldiers in the field taping two 30 round mags together and they have developed a 60 round quad stack mag that is no longer than the existing 30 round mag but they don't have to turn it around after 30 shots fired.
    They have rails for all sorts of tacticrap but without ruining the front grip for holding the weapon.

    They have altered the rifling of the weapon to improve accuracy.

    I would say this rifle is now better than an M4 or M16.

    It retains the reliability advantage by keeping the mechanism, but adds all the user friendly features of the western rifles with the added advantage of a better placed cocking handle you don't need to take your cheek off the stock to operate.
    Safety and fire controls are conveniently located and the peep sight base is much longer than either US weapon.

    More importantly the round this rifle fires retains its lethality at any impact velocity so it is not range limited to about 200m like the 5.56mm.

    Of course this is one entry, and the military has not even committed to a new rifle yet and might wait for the new designs created from scratch that will represent modular construction and may have calibre kits so a light rifle can have extra barrels and bolts and magazines in light calibres... or perhaps they might take it a step further and have a base rear end with a range of light and heavy uppers so you can have everything from a SMG to a belt fed machine gun and everything in between...

    These from scratch rifles will probably start appearing after 2015, so the AK-12 from Kalashnikov... and possibly a similar rifle based on the AK-107 with a balanced recoil mechanism so the Army can choose between the two... to see if they think the complication and extra cost is worth it.

    They will also have the ADS from KBP and no doubt a rifle from Kovrov (AEK) and also likely Nikonov has not been sleeping all this time either, so an improvement on the An-94 can be expected too.

    From the thread on the VDV reequipping it seems the VDV are getting new underwater rifles and that means ADS. If they have accepted it into service then we can assume the Russian Naval Infantry will be adopting it too.

    The question is, will they adopt it as their standard rifle, or just as a specialist weapon?

    In 5.45mm standard ammo it is supposed to be effective out to 600m, which is very impressive if true.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:24 am

    Considering there is a new entire family of weapons on the way I doubt this new rifle, if adopted will replace the existing stock of AKs.

    I think it will be very much like the AN-94 that will be introduced to special teams in the Army and in other units, to test its performance in real situations.

    I think they will probably buy 20-30,000 rifles and test them... I also think perhaps the 5.56mm and 7.62 x 51mm rifles might interest former eastern european countries and a few other countries besides, especially being able to fit NATO standard sights and rifle grenades and equipment to them.

    I actually think they would sell very well in the US on the civilian market, where the shooters will appreciate the easier to use controls, and being the guy on the shooting range not carrying an M4 or M16...

    20-30,000 rifles sounds like a lot, but these weapons will be put through their paces by as many different soldiers in as many different conditions as possible, and will be used by non military personel as well like FSB and MVD/border control in addition to special forces in the air force, army, and navy.

    AKMs fire underwater, so I suspect this rifle would also fire underwater too, and with the new standard 5.45mm ammo developed for the ADS then perhaps this rifle could be used underwater too... with the right sabot ammo.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:49 am

    The Cubans visited the new rifle and ammo factories in Venezuela built for them by the Russians and were impressed enough to give the Russians a contract to upgrade one of their ammo factories to the new standard.

    There were rumours that this might lead to contracts to upgrade other Cuban ammo factories, and also possibly a rifle making factory to build AK-103s.

    Now I suspect perhaps the Cubans might look at the new AK-12 before deciding what sort of rifle factory to build... an AK-12 in 7.62 x 39mm might be interesting... especially if it is based on the AK-107 balanced recoil mechanism too... they might decide the expense and complication is worth it.

    Of course they might equally decide the AK-103 is good enough.

    Also a factor to take into account is that one of the accuracy issues with the 7.62 x 39mm is that it has a fairly steep trajectory fall off beyond about 300m or so, so while you could likely hit targets out to about 600m and still hit them hard enough to be effective in terms of lethality, the problem is range estimation, which requires a lot of practise to get any good at.

    The thing is that with the new scopes with built in laser rangefinders and ballistic computers then this range estimation problem is suddenly and effectively eliminated.

    A good quality 7.62 x 39mm rifle would greatly benefit from such a scope, and like it or loath it, a 7.62 x 39mm projectile at 500m will do rather more damage than a 5.56mm projectile simply because if its larger calibre. Both will likely punch straight through unprotected targets, but the larger calibre round will of course make the bigger hole.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:27 pm

    Here is ASh-12 (not AK-12) and some friends:

    A high resolution/large size original here: http://talks.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/005710/5710493.jpg

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 12 5710493

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:43 am

    Nice photo... thanks for posting.

    BTW I guess it is the forum software, but I could only see a fraction of the actual picture you posted.

    A PC shortcut to resize your screen is to press Ctrl + the 0/Ins button on your numeric keypad and it will resize the text and photos so the full photo is visible... though in higher resolutions the text does get quite small.

    This picture you have posted is very interesting for several reasons...

    First of all from left to right on the table part of an AK-74M, then perhaps two versions of the ASh-12, or perhaps with the small mag of the first rifle it is a designated marksman/sniper type rifle while the next rifle is the ASh-12 with a larger capacity magazine... perhaps with the former rifle firing the subsonic 12.7 x 55mm and the latter rifle firing higher velocity 12.7 x 55mm ammo. The underbarrel attachments are different and unusual on both rifles.

    The next rifle, which has yet another under barrel attachment that looks very much like the old 30mm suppressed BS-1 "Tishina" grenade launcher formerly fitted to AKS-74U. The rifle itself is a Groza, but I think it is in a 9 x 21mm calibre rather than 9 x 39mm of the standard Groza and up against the wall is a 9mm round and two grenades that look rather slimmer than the grenade at the front of the table, which leads me to think they are 30mm calibre. The double length grenade is interesting... perhaps trading range for a heavier payload.
    The four weapons at the end of the table are grenade launchers with the pump action weapon being the GM-94 which is a 43mm calibre weapon with the grenade at the front of the table one example of the ammo it fires. Note the weapon is largely made up of two tubes with the lower tube the barrel and the upper tube is a magazine holding 3 rounds.

    The next weapon on the table is the 6 shot revolver 6G30 grenade launcher that uses the same standard underbarrel 40mm grenades as the two underbarrel grenade launchers below it. The two grenade under barrel launchers bottom right on the table are likely either the GP-25, GP-30, or GP-34... they are muzzle loaded and have no shell case so the grenades are very much like little mortar shells. They can only be fired while attached to a rifle and will clip straight on to an AK, an AKM, or AK-74 and other related weapons using a bayonet like attachment. (note if you look closely at a high resolution photo of an AK-74 it seems to have two bayonet lugs as the original position on the AKM that was used for the under barrel grenade launcher was too far back on the AK-74 because of the new muzzle brake so rather than have different grenade launchers for different rifles they simply gave the AK-74 a forward bayonet lug and a rear mounted grenade launcher lug.

    Finally leaning against the wall is the ADS, which is being adopted by the VDV. It has special sabot ammo that can be fired underwater, while still using standard AK-74 magazines and 5.45mm ammo.

    Thanks for posting.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:56 am

    Actually now that i think about it the silver tipped gray 30mm grenades against the wall to the right side of the photo... the original 30mm grenades had shaped charge warheads for anti armour use.

    I guess it is possible that the double grenade might have two separate warheads to penetrate ERA or to increase penetration.

    The low velocity means the grenades have a fairly steep trajectory so would be useful against thin top armour.

    Accuracy would be a problem, but with a group of soldiers firing a volley of grenades the chances of a hit are increased.

    If they have fragmentation effects they can also damage aerials and optics even if they don't penetrate the vehicle and they would have an anti personel effect too.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:26 pm

    Video of AK-12.

    http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=396726
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    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:44 pm

    Kalashnikov 5: Brand-new AK-12 rifle unveiled (VIDEO, PHOTOS)
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    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:43 pm

    New Strizh pistol being develloped by private enterprise

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:39 am

    So to look at the potential for the new Russian small arms family, lets look at the various weapon types that could be incorporated... based on existing types.

    At the small end we have the Vityaz and Bizon SMGs which are loosely based on the AKS-74U and are chambered in 9x18mm and 9x19mm pistol calibres.

    Next up we have the SMG in assault rifle calibre, or the AKS-74U itself.

    Then comes the short barrel carbine in the form of the AK-105.

    Next is the AK-74M which is the 5.45mm full length rifle in the AK-100 series.

    Then you would also have the AK-9 in 9 x 39mm calibre as a specialist weapon.

    Above that would be a weapon along the lines of the DT or ASh-12 in 12.7 x 55mm calibre.

    The next weapon up would be the RPK-74.

    Then an RPK-74 length weapon in a more powerful calibre in the class of the SVD.

    At the top of the scale we would have the PKM/PKP class weapon in a heavy calibre and belt fed.

    So this means a pistol calibre SMG, an assault rifle calibre SMG, a short barrel carbine, an assault rifle, a specialist silenced assault rifle, a specialist silenced sniper rifle, a LMG, a desingated marksman rifle, and a GPMG.

    If I was designing them the pistol calibre would be 9 x 21mm, the assault rifle would be 5.45 x 39mm, the silenced assault rifle would be in 9 x 39mm and the silenced sniper rifle would be in 12.7 x 55mm and the LMG, the DMR, and the GPMG would all be in 6 x 49mm.

    The LMG and GPMG will be belt fed and the DMR would have 25 round magazines, while the assault rifles will have 60 round mags in 5.45mm calibre and 30 rounds in 9 x 39mm and 20 rounds in 12.7 x 55mm. The 9 x21mm mags will be 20 and 40 round capacity sticks or 64 round spiral tube mags.

    Like the AK-12 the new guns will be modular, with box feeds for everything except LMG and GPMG.

    The LMG, heavy suppressed sniper rifle, DMR, and GPMG will be larger heavier weapons with stronger frames, the assualt rifle calibre weapons will be medium framed weapons and the pistol calibre SMGs will be light framed weapons.

    The assault rifles would be bullpups to reduce length.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:21 am

    Forgot to add a 12 gauge model too to complete the family... in fact the only member that wouldn't make sense would be a pistol.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:16 am

    Hate to break it to you Garry, but there is an assault rifle called the DT, but it isn't 12.7mm and isn't intended for 800 m use either. It's just another Russian under water assault rifle, already obsolete compared to the ADS.

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