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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:21 am

    Actually the pistol looks very much like a Glock.

    Previous pistols they have shown for potential Russian service use have seemed a little complicated with lots of small parts.

    I guess with the choice of the more powerful western ammo they can't use simple blowback pistols like the Makarovs any more.

    I don't have much experience with pistols, but I would think that for the military a 9mm makarov bullet will make the same 9mm hole in the target as a 9mm NATO round...
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    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:58 am

    I am suspecting the upcoming AK-200 will be based on the AK-12 with the balanced recoil mechanism of the AK-107.
    If my guess turns out to be correct, I will congratulate Izhmash for recreating their competitor from the Abakan program... Kovrov's AEK-971.


    Last edited by TheArmenian on Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  njb1 on Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:41 am

    TheArmenian wrote:I am suspecting the upcoming AK-200 will be based on the AK-12 with the balanced recoil mechanism of the AK-107.
    If my guess turns out to be correct, I will congratulate Izhmash for recreating their competitor from the Abakan program... Kovrov's AEK-919.

    So..is the AK12 in fact the AK200 or are they seperate designs? confussed ? Also the so called built from scratch new Izhmash design - is this the AK-12 or some thing different yet to be seen - any sound ideas !

    As regards the shown AK-12 this looks look a logical step in design from the AK-74m will be interesting to see if different barrel length versions will come out of it.

    A good start i think.

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    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:26 pm

    As expected, these photos and revelation will raise more questions than they provide answers. Here is another AK-107 which seems to have a longer barrel. RPK replacement maybe???? It also has the 60 round magazine.

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 11 0_6c67e_260ca6b2_XXL
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    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:38 pm

    Regarding the "Strike" pistol: Izhmash does not have a tradition of making pistols.

    The Makarov is made by the Izhevsk Mechanical Plant (Izhmekh), also known as "Baikal". It is still being produced for certain clients and its 9x18 caliber round is adequate for most purposes.

    Izhmekh also makes the more powerfull current Russian Army pistol: the PYa (Yaryagin) which uses the more powerfull 9x19 round. That round is also used by its competitor pistol GSh-18 made by KBP. Both pistols can also use the armour piercing hotshot version of the 9x19 round.

    An even more powerfull pistol using the unsurpassed superduper 9x21 caliber is the SR-1M Gyurza (Vektor) pistol designed by Tsniitochmash.

    I don't understand why Izhmash felt the need to develop a pistol. And why would they assign a foreign (Strike) name to it?
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    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:37 pm

    Just found this:

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 11 1327480187ak12spravasos

    Higher resolution photo here:
    http://izhlife.ru/uploads/posts/2012-01/1327480187_ak-12-sprava-so-shtatnym-magazinom.jpg
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    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:12 pm

    Photos are still trickling in:
    A couple of AK-107s and a couple of Kovrov's AEK-971 models.

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 11 Aw1nlnz6lnj1l3vwaw1nlzu
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:38 am

    Very interesting info here:

    http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/kalashnikov-ak-12-e.html

    Interesting things like the 22mm calibre muzzle which allows NATO standard rifle grenades to be used... I thought it looked longer and narrower...

    This sounds to me like it is a weapon they want to sell to the new NATO members from the former warsaw pact...

    A 5.56mm rifle and a 7.62 x 51mm designated marksman rifle would be ideal for use in afghanistan right now...

    I wonder if the heavier model includes up to 338 LM power?
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:19 am

    It mentions light and heavy AKs, I wonder if they might take it further and expand the heavy to not just larger calibre options but also use the heavy version as the basis for a light machine gun version in smaller and larger calibres?

    If we look at the high res photo and read the article on Max's page there is clearly a small silver oval below the front mounted hinge of the receiver where the iron sights used to be.

    Based on his description I suspect that if you open the hinged top cover fully that you could rotate the cocking handle 180 degrees over so that it sticks out where that silver oval is which will mean looking from the other side the silver oval will be visible there and the cocking handle will be on the other side.

    This means that you can quickly set the weapon to have the cocking handle on the side you prefer without it being too fiddly.

    Add a length adjustable folding stock, rails, and 4 position selector on both sides within thumbs reach, new peep sights with a much longer sight base than pretty much any western rifle... it sounds like a very good rifle.

    Doesn't look very pretty at the moment... it seems to have a longer barrel too.

    Will be interesting.

    Should be kept in mind that the AK-47 didn't enter full production till about 1952-1953, and in many ways what entered service was an interim rifle till they had mastered stamped steel rifles that were durable enough... which came in the form of the AKM.

    The question is, is the AK-12 an independent factory shot at the prize with the AK-200 being the official stab at the pie.

    When they first revealed the AK-12 they said it was the AK-200 renamed for 2012.

    They might reuse AK-200 for the new, from scratch design.

    Could be some liquid propellent EM weapon for all we know.... Suspect
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:27 am

    Max said:

    Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle is planned to be available in two versions – “light” and “heavy”, with former adapted for cartridges like 5.45x39, 5.56x45, 6.5 Grendel and 7,62x39, and the latter for more powerful cartridges like 7,62x51 NATO.

    Now what I think he meant was that there will be a heavy AK-12 design that can be bought in heavy calibres like 7.62mm NATO or 7.62 x 54mm, and a light version that can be bought in a range if different calibres.

    If he meant there were two basic rifles, with a heavy rifle in 7.62 x 51mm NATO and the light rifle able to switch between the lighter calibres... which presumably requires a change of bolt, magazine, and barrel then that would certainly be much more interesting and exciting really.

    Not because of the ability to pick up enemy ammo, but to be able to adapt the weapon to the type of fighting expected.

    Quite frankly at short range being able to use 7.62 x 39mm would be quite useful, while longer range work would make the 5.45 x 39mm or even 6.5mm grendel options a bit more interesting for non military users. (Soldiers rarely get a choice of weapon let alone ammo).

    Just looking closely at the rifle in the photo however I don't think it looks removable.
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    Post  Austin on Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:49 am

    I think balance recoil mechanism still has a big advantage

    http://rusguns.net/?ASSAULT_RIFLES/AK-107_and_AK-108_with_balanced_automatic_configuration

    Under the action of the recoil mechanism both masses simultaneously return in their initial positions, so the recoil impact impulse is also considerably dampened. As a result, the AK 107 assault rifle outperforms the AK-74M 1.5-2 times in terms of a low dispersion shot pattern during automatic firing from unstable positions.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:05 am

    Of course there is no question that it greatly improves handling during automatic fire, but the question is does that improvement compensate for the extra complication of the design, the expense of manufacture, the potential extra points of failure.

    Also at the end of the day there is little point in improving accuracy in bursts if they are going to start training their soldiers to fire single shot at targets.

    Also the addition of a 3 round burst could be seen as a mechanical limiter to prevent inaccurate spray fire, while the fact that they have adopted a 3 round burst option yet also retained the full auto capability means they are giving the soldiers the choice as to what fire mode is appropriate to the situation... where of course the soldier is in a much better position to decide than the designer is.

    I would think a minor change to the barrel design to allow the barrel and gas tube to be removed and replaced with different length barrels of different calibres would make this a most excellent new design.

    It can use NATO standard tacticrap, and more importantly NATO standard rifle grenades, it has a long barrel, a long sight base, fully ambidexterous controls, a length adjustible stock so you can get the right stock length in a singlet or heavy body armour, yet it folds too so you can not only make the whole rifle a few cms longer or shorter you can make it significantly shorter when needed.

    They probably lightened the bolt carrier a little bit which should improve balance during firing while at the same time they have a rifle that is not hugely more expensive or complicated to make.

    The more I look at it the more I like it.

    Add the 60 round mag and it is not an AK turned into an AR, it is a combination of the best things about an AK with the best things about the AR added while retaining the low price and the reliability.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:16 am

    Of course the obvious issue with multicalibre options is the danger of the wrong components being put together to make a weapon that cannot fire.

    I mean a 9x39mm magazine (filled with 9 x 39mm rounds), with a 9x39mm bolt and bolt carrier, but a 5.45mm barrel.

    The 9 x 39mm round wouldn't chamber of course but the fact that it doesn't blow up in his face is no great consolation to the soldier that lines up his first target and finds the bolt wont cycle and close properly.

    I would think the best solution is to make each extra calibre set as a set so that when the 9 x 39mm bolt and bolt carrier and magazine are inserted the only barrel that will fit is the 9 x 39mm barrel and vice versa.

    As I said before this is a logistics thing so the average soldier wont care because they will be issued a 5.45mm rifle and that is the only one they will use.

    Being able to switch between 5.45 x 39mm and 7.62 x 39mm and 9 x 39mm will be of tremendous use to some spec ops soldiers, so instead of having to buy kit for 3 different rifles they can just use one, which means more training time on the one weapon, yet reaping the benefits of calibre flexibility.

    Also for a country that might want a new Assault Rifle in 5.56 and in 7.62 x 39mm, yet perhaps also wants a very very similar rifle in 7.62 x 51mm... they just need to buy two rifles instead of three.

    More importantly they can use the calibre kits to change the light rifles from one calibre to another and back again so they could probably get away with buying far fewer rifles.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:50 am

    A must see: Weapons from Barishev:

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    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:54 am

    A series of videos in several segments:

    First segment:


    The other segments are as follows:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkQqNtOIENo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2NBZJen6vM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ofyO2QftdE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enufRlfkmZI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ajch752WRk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCwGpbPECn4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH1U2-0hnjU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnAs_coDMVU
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    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:00 am

    More photos are trickling in:

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 11 5638787

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 11 5642424

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 11 5642425
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    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:02 am

    Someone has worked hard to create this presentation:



    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 11 5642243
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:28 am

    Having just seen the first video you posted there theArmenian, I must say the performance of the 7.62 x 54mm seemed to be the most outstanding.

    I remember those rifles being displayed in the mid 1990s but they were described as Serbian designs if I remember correctly.

    The ability to fire the 30mm grenade launcher with such ease is impressive too as it is a full power grenade... unlike the much less powerful grenades as used in US and Russian underbarrel 40mm grenade launchers.

    Thanks for the vids.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:12 am

    In that last photo, I wish that shot of the AK-12 with its mechanism open included the bolt and bolt carrier so we could get an indication of what the cocking handle design might look like.

    BTW downloading those segments in high resolution is slow going... but it should make an interesting DVD.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:46 pm

    I think it is very clever to have modified the muzzle brake to allow standard NATO rifle grenades to be used.

    Rifle grenades are one area the Russians haven't really done much work on recently, though it offers certain features that an under barrel grenade launcher can't.

    First of all your average rifle grenade tends to be larger and heavier with no restriction on calibre.

    The best ones use a shoot through design where the bullet passes right through the grenade but the gas is captured to propel the grenade to the target area.

    A normal load of 40mm grenades would be 10-20 grenades while with rifle grenades you might be carrying 4-6.

    The rifle grenades are much heavier and also therefore more effective in some roles.

    Obviously with all sorts of reusable and disposable RPGs and RPO type weapons a Russian unit is not at any disadvantage not having a rifle grenade.

    Anti armour rifle grenades have the advantage of hitting at steep angles generally against the upper armour of a vehicle, though of course with not so good accuracy.

    The point is that a volley from several soldiers at once will be quite a threat to many different vehicle types.

    Another point is that a former warsaw pact country could use this rifle within NATO using NATO ammo and NATO rifle grenades, and with the rail system easily use NATO sights and lights and lasers and grips and grenade launchers with ease.

    The more I look at it the more I am starting to really like this new prototype.

    Would like to see some decent optics fitted and a guy in combat gear on a range shooting it.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:14 pm

    Actually I was just posting on a blog about the AK-12 and was talking about how they mention a heavy and light AK-12 model, yet they mention the heavy model in 7.62 x 51mm calibre but they don't mention 7.62 x 54mm.

    Perhaps, if we think back to when they were talking about the weapons they mentioned another secret calibre, they were referring to the 6 x 49mm as I speculated.

    For a new sniper team a soldier with an SV-338... which will be 7-8kgs at least might only have a SMG like Kashtan or perhaps Kedr/Klin, so their spotter needs a decent rifle to protect them from enemy forces, and it would be useful if they could engage targets out to medium range, so the ideal rifle for a spotter would be an AK-12 in 6 x 49mm calibre... which could be effective at ranges of 800m or more.

    It would be a straight sided cartridge that will stack well in straight magazines... likely of 20 and perhaps 30 round capacity.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:16 am

    With 15 years or so since the 6 x 49mm was being worked on, perhaps they might go for something even more radical like a caseless round.

    The new high power powder used in the new Sabot rounds for underwater use in the ADS could make the 49mm case of the 6 x 49mm large, so more of the case capacity can be used for a longer heavier bullet and less room needed for powder.

    Have read the bullets were 70-80 grain at 1,200m/s, so I would think with the new powder perhaps 120-130 grain projectiles at high velocity rifle speeds of 950 to 1,050m/s muzzle velocity might get excellent ballistics and range with the heavier projectiles retaining speed better and less wind deflection would be a bonus.

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    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:19 am

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 11 Ii1201115ak4

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 11 Ii1201115ak3

    Garry, we will eventually get all the details and answers to our questions.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:20 am

    Even those pictures you just posted then look better, with a modern composite resin type material like the 100 series...

    I just hope I don't get to like it too much and have the military not adopt it... like the AEK.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:59 am

    Any top down photos of the front of the gas tube?

    From the side it looks like they have put a short rail there, but as the tube section does not have gas venting holes perhaps what looks like a short rail is actually just venting holes for the gas system.

    Directing them up like that might result in dirt on optics and also the potential to interfere with the view created by thermal sights.

    By venting gas there however it could reduce the force of the cycling and reduce recoil both directly by venting gas upwards and also by reducing pressure rapidly in the gas tube which should soften the recoil stroke while ensuring enough gas and pressure to get the piston moving.

    Can't really think of anything you might want to mount that far forward on top in line with the sights.

    They have said they haven't altered the gas system much, so I suspect they wont have gone with a short stroke mechanism for the light rifle. It might be useful for the heavy rifle version however.

    The use of polymers on the new photos is great... polymers wont burn your skin off in extreme cold and extreme hot like bare metal can...

    Edit having looked at some photos previously posted on this thread.. specifically the page before this one I can see a top down view of the gas tube mount and it clearly is another rail attachment point for kit...

    Would be interesting if new Russian vehicles had rail mounts in their fire ports and this could be used to attach your rifle to the in vehicle rifle port mount... Smile

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