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    Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:41 pm

    AESA radars get cheaper with production numbers so putting them in air to air missiles is a good thing because the more modules you make the better...

    The first production batches will have a reasonable dud rate and reliability might not be 100%m but with missiles that only use them for a short period once it is fine... they can get better at making them over time... and most of the time even if 20% are faulty in an AAMs nose it should still have a good chance of doing its job and hitting the target.

    Such a high failure rate for fighter aircraft is not good so production of a few thousand missiles with 60 or more modules per missile, that is a lot of modules in serial production...

    Assuming 1,700 per fighter, probably more for a big fighter like an Su-35 and probably the same or slightly less for a smaller fighter like a MiG-35 , or in an external weapon pod for use in smaller fighters or helicopters or drones that don't need radar all the time... they are going to have to make them in the millions....

    Which is fine... 64 modules for the R-77 sized weapons, 8x8 grids of elements, but probably a 16 x 16 grid for a bigger missile like R-37M so 256 elements and possibly more for bigger missile like the Kh-31 anti ship missiles...
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:17 pm

    Russia and India to Build AWACS Killer Rocket
    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 13 1_d_850

    The Russian-Indian joint venture "Bramos" has begun work on a new version of a cruise missile designed to destroy long-range radar surveillance aircraft (AWACS). The weapon will be a variant of the Brahmos, an air-launched supersonic cruise missile.

    - The air-to-air design of the air-to-air Bramos missile system was approved for the destruction of targets such as AWACS aircraft. Completion of work for the first start-up is scheduled for 2024, - Alexander Maksichev, co-director of the joint venture from the Russian side , told RIA Novosti .

    The existing missile modifications are designed to destroy sea and ground targets. The new version is being created on the same platform - with some improvements - but uses a different seeker designed to search for a radar, that is, a contrast target, Maksichev said.

    https://rg.ru/2020/09/14/rossiia-i-indiia-sozdadut-raketu-ubijcu-awacs.html

    What's interesting is that there was talk back in 2009 that Kh-31's could be utilized in the AWACS killer role:

    Zvezda Kh-31 (AS-17 Krypton)

    The Kh-31 family of missiles entered production as a fast supersonic antiradiation missile, designated the Kh-31P. Its L-111E seeker employs a unique antenna arrangement with an interferometer array of six spiral antennas on a steerable platform. Two fuselage configurations are known, the 'shortbody' variant claimed to achieve a 60 NMI range. The missile uses a liquid ramjet with a solid booster stage, achieving sustained high altitude cruise speeds in excess of Mach 4. China has licensed the Kh-31P as the YJ91, with Chinese source claiming its intended use as an 'AWACS killer' and conventional anti-radiation weapon. An active radar seeker equipped version also exists, designated the Kh-31A and intended for anti-shipping applications. Russian sources claim an adaptation of this seeker allows the weapon to also be used as an 'AWACS killer'.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20090126154153/http://ausairpower.net/DT-Missile-Survey-May-05.pdf

    Funny I also suggested a AshM (Kh-47m2 Kinzhal) could be used to hit aerial targets like AWACS and ballistic missiles.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:17 am

    Ramjet powered Kh-31s were suggested simply because they would be the same as the anti radiaton version, but talking about an anti radiation missile to shoot down AWACS planes... you might as well call it an anti colonial anti HATO missile and because AWACS aircraft operate at medium altitude it could fly high all the way and quite fast... but would likely lead to HATO developing anti missile missiles for the purpose, or at least upgrading AMRAAM for the purpose, which compromises the R-37M which essentially can do the same thing.

    The R-33 and R-37M were already in service and paid for so the Russians are not so likely to fund another missile to essentially do the same thing.

    Another factor is that ramjet powered missiles have similar flight speeds to similar sized solid rocket powered missiles, so there was little chance of dramatically better performance from the Kh-31... both are 600kg area weight missiles.

    What has changed however is scramjet propulsion... think of ramjet as being a turbo powered propeller which is simpler and lighter and much more powerful than any similar piston or radial engine turning a propeller. A scramjet model is not limited to speeds similar to rocket powered weapons of similar size and design, and as shown with Zircon are able to double the flight speed of a ramjet powered equivalent... the upper speed limit of the Kh-31 operating at altitude is about mach 4, but a scramjet powered model could reach double that speed and would not burn fuel at a much higher rate... not having to restrict airflow to make combustion subsonic they can have a low more air flowing through them at much higher speeds... with similar engine burn times and twice the flight speeds flight ranges are often increased by double, but heat becomes an issue that needs to be managed...
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    Post  limb on Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:07 pm

    Why are almost all photos of rusdian fighters only with R-27s? I know there is the upgraded R-27 model with 130km range, but can find no info of how much in stock it is. Is is it true that the bvr missile stocks are majority base model R-27s? Apart from being very obsolete, these missiles have limited shelf life, which makes them more vulnerable to malfunctions in the electronics.

    I read western propaganda that russia only started producing the base model R-77 after 2010, which us extremely late. Are R-77Ms in enough stock, or we can only expect russian aircraft to ve mainly equipped with them by the late 2020s.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:55 pm

    Yep that's true. They have mainly r-27 and r77-1 was bought after 2010 with su-35.

    They just signed a multi million dollars contract for a huge quantity of r-77-1.

    R-77M is still not produced and will be bought with su-57 IMO starting in 2021.

    R-27 must be at the end of their life and are quite old. Their efficiency is not known specially against modern jammers and LO jets. Export R-27 that west had access to (Germany for ex) are downgraded models.

    IIRC r-27 was build in Ukraine and Russia didn't have any productiin line after USSR fall. Not sure of that.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:02 pm

    No, only two models of R-27 was made in Ukraine. Others were made in Russia
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    Post  limb on Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:11 pm

    Isos wrote:Yep that's true. They have mainly r-27 and r77-1 was bought after 2010 with su-35.

    They just signed a multi million dollars contract for a huge quantity of r-77-1.

    R-77M is still not produced and will be bought with su-57 IMO starting in 2021.

    R-27 must be at the end of their life and are quite old. Their efficiency is not known specially against modern jammers and LO jets. Export R-27 that west had access to (Germany for ex) are downgraded models.

    IIRC r-27 was build in Ukraine and Russia didn't have any productiin line after USSR fall. Not sure of that.
    This is extremely worrying. This means the vast majority of russian fighters only have the option to carry completely obsolete 80s AAMs while most of NATO has large stocks of AIM-120c-7s.
    Why is it taking so long to bring the R-77M into service?
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:13 pm

    limb wrote:
    Isos wrote:Yep that's true. They have mainly r-27 and r77-1 was bought after 2010 with su-35.

    They just signed a multi million dollars contract for a huge quantity of r-77-1.

    R-77M is still not produced and will be bought with su-57 IMO starting in 2021.

    R-27 must be at the end of their life and are quite old. Their efficiency is not known specially against modern jammers and LO jets. Export R-27 that west had access to (Germany for ex) are downgraded models.

    IIRC r-27 was build in Ukraine and Russia didn't have any productiin line after USSR fall. Not sure of that.
    This is extremely worrying. This means the vast majority of russian fighters only have the option to carry completely obsolete 80s AAMs while most of NATO has large stocks of AIM-120c-7s.
    Why is it taking so long to bring the R-77M into service?

    Because the aim-120 proved to be useless shit and that R-27 was more than sufficient for years.
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    Post  limb on Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:18 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    limb wrote:
    Isos wrote:Yep that's true. They have mainly r-27 and r77-1 was bought after 2010 with su-35.

    They just signed a multi million dollars contract for a huge quantity of r-77-1.

    R-77M is still not produced and will be bought with su-57 IMO starting in 2021.

    R-27 must be at the end of their life and are quite old. Their efficiency is not known specially against modern jammers and LO jets. Export R-27 that west had access to (Germany for ex) are downgraded models.

    IIRC r-27 was build in Ukraine and Russia didn't have any productiin line after USSR fall. Not sure of that.
    This is extremely worrying. This means the vast majority of russian fighters only have the option to carry completely obsolete 80s AAMs while most of NATO has large stocks of AIM-120c-7s.
    Why is it taking so long to bring the R-77M into service?

    Because the aim-120 proved to be useless shit and that R-27 was more than sufficient for years.
    What made it so sufficient?

    Also its fatal to underestimate the enemy. Your claim is on same tier of arrogance as those westerners who say the R-27 was useless because it missed all its targets in the ethiopian eritrean war.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:21 pm

    Why is it taking so long to bring the R-77M into service?

    It's developed for the su57 and both are being tested right now. It should be ready in the next years for production.

    R-77-1 is a very good counterpart to the AMRAAM. R77M is to counter meteor and give a huge advantage to su-57/35 over 4th generation fighters. They are buying lot of them to replace the r27.

    Also its fatal to underestimate the enemy. Your claim is on same tier of arrogance as those westerners who say the R-27 was useless because it missed all its targets in the ethiopian eritrean war.

    Russians don't bet on BVR and they have r-27ER/ET/P (radar, IR, passive radar). AMRAAM is only a radar guided with its small inboard radar and not really effective against modern jammers.

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    Post  limb on Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:53 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Why is it taking so long to bring the R-77M into service?

    It's developed for the su57 and both are being tested right now. It should be ready in the next years for production.

    R-77-1 is a very good counterpart to the AMRAAM. R77M is to counter meteor and give a huge advantage to su-57/35 over 4th generation fighters. They are buying lot of them to replace the r27.

    Also its fatal to underestimate the enemy. Your claim is on same tier of arrogance as those westerners who say the R-27 was useless because it missed all its targets in the ethiopian eritrean war.

    Russians don't bet on BVR and they have r-27ER/ET/P (radar, IR, passive radar). AMRAAM is only a radar guided with its small inboard radar and not really effective against modern jammers.
    Russia doesnt use R-27Es. They're only for export. It seems like the majority of their R-27 stocks have 80km max range compared to 105km on the AIM-120C-7, and 160km on the AIM-120D.
    The R-77-1 has 110km range while the more common R-77 base model also has 80km range, so they're not AIM-120D equivalents, but only AIM-120C-7 equivalents.
    Also why do you assume US(and french for that matter) missile designers are bumbling fools who havent taken into account the jamming threat on ARH missiles and created jam resistant designs?
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:04 pm

    limb wrote:Why are almost all photos of rusdian fighters only with R-27s? I know there is the upgraded R-27 model with 130km range, but can find no info of how much in stock it is. Is is it true that the bvr missile stocks are majority base model R-27s? Apart from being very obsolete, these missiles have limited shelf life, which makes them more vulnerable to malfunctions in the electronics.

    I read western propaganda that russia only started producing the base model R-77 after 2010, which us extremely late. Are R-77Ms in enough stock, or we can only expect russian aircraft to ve mainly equipped with them by the late 2020s.

    They had other priorities apparently and probably wanted to burn their inventories of older missiles, but recently a very big contract for modern R-77-1 was placed, I think it was linked in the forum
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    Post  limb on Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:20 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    limb wrote:Why are almost all photos of rusdian fighters only with R-27s? I know there is the upgraded R-27 model with 130km range, but can find no info of how much in stock it is. Is is it true that the bvr missile stocks are majority base model R-27s? Apart from being very obsolete, these missiles have limited shelf life, which makes them more vulnerable to malfunctions in the electronics.

    I read western propaganda that russia only started producing the base model R-77 after 2010, which us extremely late. Are R-77Ms in enough stock, or we can only expect russian aircraft to ve mainly equipped with them by the late 2020s.

    They had other priorities apparently and probably wanted to burn their inventories of older missiles, but recently a very big contract for modern R-77-1 was placed, I think it was linked in the forum
    That seems more plausible, they simply didnt have money and relegated what little money there was to SAMs probably.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:37 pm

    limb wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    limb wrote:Why are almost all photos of rusdian fighters only with R-27s? I know there is the upgraded R-27 model with 130km range, but can find no info of how much in stock it is. Is is it true that the bvr missile stocks are majority base model R-27s? Apart from being very obsolete, these missiles have limited shelf life, which makes them more vulnerable to malfunctions in the electronics.

    I read western propaganda that russia only started producing the base model R-77 after 2010, which us extremely late. Are R-77Ms in enough stock, or we can only expect russian aircraft to ve mainly equipped with them by the late 2020s.

    They had other priorities apparently and probably wanted to burn their inventories of older missiles, but recently a very big contract for modern R-77-1 was placed, I think it was linked in the forum
    That seems more plausible, they simply didnt have money and relegated what little money there was to SAMs probably.

    None at all.

    Because most shootdowns was done by WVR missiles. Not BVR. Recent example of questionable performance was in Syria against an Su-22.

    So I stand by my "arrogance" as you put it. Cause there is actual data to back it up of its rather questionable performance.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:26 pm

    limb wrote:
    Russia doesnt use R-27Es. They're only for export. It seems like the majority of their R-27 stocks have 80km max range compared to 105km on the AIM-120C-7, and 160km on the AIM-120D.
    The R-77-1 has 110km range while the more common R-77 base model also has 80km range, so they're not AIM-120D equivalents, but only AIM-120C-7 equivalents.
    Also why do you assume US(and french for that matter) missile designers are bumbling fools who havent taken into account the jamming threat on ARH missiles and created jam resistant designs?

    The E in R-27ER means "extended range" and not export like for other missiles.

    Mig29A/B had the 80km range R-27R/T missiles.

    Su-27 had a better and longer range radar around 120km for a 5m2 rcs target so they developed an longer range version which is R-27ER/ET to use it efficiently.

    Mig-29A/B had a radar with ranges around 80/90 km.
    I dont think there was a R-27EP, passive homming.

    Mig-29S was the first to use R-77. But russians weren't really happy with it and its 80km range. They developed the R-77-1 with 110km but didn't had many plateforms that could use it until smig-29SMT, Su-30SM and su-35 came in. So after 2010.

    Everyone has taken into account jamming but those missiles have tinny radars powered by batteries and far less powerfull onboard computers to deal with a jammer powered by the engines of a modern jet. Moreover they are all doppler radars which very well jammed by DRFM jamming.

    Russians have 4 sorts of missile for BVR: Semai active radar using planes radar emission, active radar missile, IR missile and passive missile. They would fire mix in a salvo against a same target.

    AIM120D isn't exported and its range will never be 160km. Max range is around 140km but just like other missiles its effective range against a fighter would be 60-70km. If you launch a missile at max range it can only hit a big plane.

    The only missile that is very good at its max range is the meteor because it is powered all the way. R-77M will be a dual pulse motor, it start like old r-77 and then in final phase start its engine again to regain its speed and increase the range.
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    Post  thegopnik on Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:41 am

    [quote="GarryB"]
    With a point defence missile like Morfei that can engage that incoming missile away from its intended target restores a level of protection for Russian assets that means to effectively defeat them you need to resort back to nuclear weapons, which of course returns the status quo to suicide... which is where we all like it. Smile

    Do you have information of this morfei defense system like a source, image, range or size of said missile or where its located in the Su-57. I hate feeling left in the dark when other users know what it is but i dont.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:44 am

    That's only speculation. We don't even know if they will use the Morphei on Su-57. It is just a ground to air missile as of now and it will certainly not be used to target incoming missiles.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:04 am

    thegopnik wrote:

    Do you have information of this morfei defense system like a source, image, range or size of said missile or where its located in the Su-57. I hate feeling left in the dark when other users know what it is but i dont.
    [/quote]

    It's back in 1996. 9M100 and 9M96 was proposed for A2A application by Fakel. 9M100 was to compete against the K-30 missile from Vympel.

    Nonetheless nowadays it appears Fakel will not enter any A2A application anytime soon. 9M100 and 9M96 would be part of S-350 system.

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    Post  Sujoy on Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:33 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:It's back in 1996. 9M100 and 9M96 was proposed for A2A application by Fakel. 9M100 was to compete against the K-30 missile from Vympel.

    Nonetheless nowadays it appears Fakel will not enter any A2A application anytime soon. 9M100 and 9M96 would be part of S-350 system.
    Good point Stealthflanker, as always.

    And that's why it's interesting that Brahmos is now entering this [air to air missile] arena.
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    Post  limb on Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:04 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    limb wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    limb wrote:Why are almost all photos of rusdian fighters only with R-27s? I know there is the upgraded R-27 model with 130km range, but can find no info of how much in stock it is. Is is it true that the bvr missile stocks are majority base model R-27s? Apart from being very obsolete, these missiles have limited shelf life, which makes them more vulnerable to malfunctions in the electronics.

    I read western propaganda that russia only started producing the base model R-77 after 2010, which us extremely late. Are R-77Ms in enough stock, or we can only expect russian aircraft to ve mainly equipped with them by the late 2020s.

    They had other priorities apparently and probably wanted to burn their inventories of older missiles, but recently a very big contract for modern R-77-1 was placed, I think it was linked in the forum
    That seems more plausible, they simply didnt have money and relegated what little money there was to SAMs probably.

    None at all.

    Because most shootdowns was done by WVR missiles.  Not BVR.  Recent example of questionable performance was in Syria against an Su-22.

    So I stand by my "arrogance" as you put it.  Cause there is actual data to back it up of its rather questionable performance.
    Well the AIM-120 actually managed to shoot down the Su-22 while the sidewinder failed miserably(although this allowed the americans to quickly improve it).
    There hasnt been a major air war since the 90s. BVR technology has improved massively since then. You're like those generals who said that cavalry will always be superior to tanks.

    isos wrote:AIM120D isn't exported and its range will never be 160km. Max range is around 140km but just like other missiles its effective range against a fighter would be 60-70km. If you launch a missile at max range it can only hit a big plane.

    The only missile that is very good at its max range is the meteor because it is powered all the way. R-77M will be a dual pulse motor, it start like old r-77 and then in final phase start its engine again to regain its speed and increase the range.
    The AIM-120D is still being produced in significant numbers for the USAF, which is Russia's principal opponent. According to the US airforce it has 160+km range. Where did you get 140km from? The no escape zone for a missile is proportional to its range. The one for R-77-1 is even smaller than for the AIM-120D.  
    Also if the americans are exaggerating their missile performance whats the chance the French and Russians are too?
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:11 pm

    Well the AIM-120 actually managed to shoot down the Su-22 while the sidewinder failed miserably(although this allowed the americans to quickly improve it).
    There hasnt been a major air war since the 90s. BVR technology has improved massively since then. You're like those generals who said that cavalry will always be superior to tanks.

    Su-22 is old. It doesn't even have automatic jammers, auto chaffs dispensers and can't really hit back at an f-18 and probably didn't even know it was there until last moments. Overall it's a defeat for US air force.

    I doubt it was improve. You don't just improve such tech in very short time and certainly not missiles that are deployed.

    Improve is also a big word. They can change the alghoritms but at the end they don't know if it will work better.

    Infantry with ATGM proved many times to be better than tanks... yom kippur war around 1000 israeli tanks destroyed by at-3, Syrian war, Afghan wars...

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    Post  LMFS on Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:34 pm

    limb wrote:The AIM-120D is still being produced in significant numbers for the USAF, which is Russia's principal opponent. According to the US airforce it has 160+km range. Where did you get 140km from? The no escape zone for a missile is proportional to its range. The one for R-77-1 is even smaller than for the AIM-120D.  
    Also if the americans are exaggerating their missile performance whats the chance the French and Russians are too?

    The only known gains in AIM-120D are related to scheduling of flight profile and loft performance, no improvement in engine or kinematics that we know. So it reaches further in case of very far launches by profiting from very thin air and optimizing of the climb to high altitude, it does not mean it has more energy available or an intrinsically bigger no-escape zone than the C7 for instance.

    In any case, those very far launches have small tactical significance against fighters and will fail every time, unless the target is unaware of the attack.

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:33 pm

    Do you have information of this morfei defense system like a source, image, range or size of said missile or where its located in the Su-57. I hate feeling left in the dark when other users know what it is but i dont.

    There has not been a lot of information released about it, though I have read mention that it is intended as a self defence missile for fighters and strike aircraft and bombers and can be carried internally because it uses a lock on after launch IIR seeker.

    For a bit I got confused because elsewhere it was mentioned that a new missile had that guidance but that turned out the be Hermes and uses a two way datalink, but that is interesting too because Hermes is supposed to be able to be used against aircraft as well as ground targets.

    It is supposed to be used on the S-350 twelve tube TEL for the 9M96 missile system intended to replace old model S-300 batteries using two ARH missiles with 60km and 150km range missiles as well as the 9M100 short range missile that can be loaded four 9M100 missiles to a 9M96 missile tube.

    The S-350 can carry 12 9M96 missiles or each of those 12 missiles can be replaced with 4 9M100 meaning if you carried only 9M100 missiles on the TEL it could carry 48 9M100 missiles.

    The Redut SAM system is supposed to be the naval equivalent of S-350 and carry the same number of missile combinations...

    If Hermes and 9M100 turn out to be the same missile it would be quite interesting because the length of the tubes for the S-350 and Redut means the 100km ground launched models with the large solid rocket boosters could possibly be loaded if there is room meaning 100km surface attack missiles and IIR guided missiles could be used in those systems.

    The boosters are probably too fat however... but with slightly bigger tubes...

    Why are almost all photos of rusdian fighters only with R-27s? I know there is the upgraded R-27 model with 130km range, but can find no info of how much in stock it is. Is is it true that the bvr missile stocks are majority base model R-27s? Apart from being very obsolete, these missiles have limited shelf life, which makes them more vulnerable to malfunctions in the electronics.

    The Russian Air Force didn't have many fighters able to use R-77s for the 1990s and for most of the 2000s so there wasn't much point in buying them.

    They didn't make huge numbers of them and most went to China and India, and being ARH they were not cheap.

    I read western propaganda that russia only started producing the base model R-77 after 2010, which us extremely late. Are R-77Ms in enough stock, or we can only expect russian aircraft to ve mainly equipped with them by the late 2020s.

    The missile they call the R-77 is the RVV-AE and was mostly sold to export customers... the Russian military as I said had very few aircraft that could even use it so it wasn't a big priority. The missile they started buying in 2010 was the R-77-1 which had some minor improvements and called RVV-SD (110km range and digital electronics). The missile they use and will probably buy in big numbers is the R-77M which is rather recent and has roughly twice the range... (likely AESA radar and 200km+ range).

    R-77M is still not produced and will be bought with su-57 IMO starting in 2021.

    I thought they said they started production in 2018 or so...

    R-27 must be at the end of their life and are quite old.

    They were a reasonably good missile for their time and were bought in numbers. Upgrades would be easy to improve performance... their unusual shaped control fins reduced drag in turns and improved performance over much less effective triangular fins seen on western missiles.

    The US Navy still uses upgraded Sparrow missiles for ship defence, and with digital upgrades they are supposed to be quite good.

    They certainly are quite heavy at about 320-340kgs each for the long range models.

    Recently saw a video of a Flanker intercepting a B-52 flying near Russia and the Flanker has two wing mounted R-27ER and two R-73 missiles visible...

    Their efficiency is not known specially against modern jammers and LO jets. Export R-27 that west had access to (Germany for ex) are downgraded models.

    They have more model R-27 types than HATO has assault rifle types... with a 40kg HE payload it would be interesting to turn them into anti radiation missiles...

    IIRC r-27 was build in Ukraine and Russia didn't have any productiin line after USSR fall. Not sure of that.

    Not true. Actually I think it was parts of the R-77 that were made in the Ukraine but all their air launched weapons are now made in Russia...

    This is extremely worrying. This means the vast majority of russian fighters only have the option to carry completely obsolete 80s AAMs while most of NATO has large stocks of AIM-120c-7s.
    Why is it taking so long to bring the R-77M into service?

    The effectiveness of BVR missiles against aware modern targets is not actually very good at all.

    Interestingly the Soviets developed an anti missile version of the R-27 that used a seeker head that detected a target illuminating beam normally directed from a fighter aircraft at a target to guide a SARH missile.... so for instance if an F-15 wanted to launch a Sparrow at a Flanker it needed to get a radar lock and illuminate the Flanker with an illumination beam. It could then launch a Sparrow missile to detect the reflection from that beam and home in on it. The R-27P and R-27EP would home in on the signal directly from the F-15 and hit the F-15... which was busy illuminating the Flanker and would not see the incoming missile. The R-27EP is faster and longer ranged than Sparrow so even if the Sparrow was launched first the F-15 could still be hit before his sparrow hit. When the F-15 is shot down the Sparrow loses its target and will not hit anything. If the F-15 realises it is under attack and turns it can lose lock and the Sparrow will miss. Once the Flanker has fired his missile he is free to do as he likes because his missile is homing on the targets radar beam.

    In theory the same missiles... the R-27EP and R-27P should be able to use the same method to target AMRAAM missiles close to their target illuminating them with their own radar... but there would be much less time... perhaps part of the self defence suite could detect the incoming AMRAAM and prepare a missile for launch and when the AMRAAM illuminates the aircraft for the terminal engagement the missile can be launched to hunt down and try to kill the AMRAAM...

    Also its fatal to underestimate the enemy. Your claim is on same tier of arrogance as those westerners who say the R-27 was useless because it missed all its targets in the ethiopian eritrean war.

    Export missiles are not great, and BVR missiles rarely have high PK (kill probabilities) at the best of times... they are normally intended for shooting down bombers and spy planes and are not ideal for shooting down small manouverable fighters.

    R-77-1 is a very good counterpart to the AMRAAM. R77M is to counter meteor and give a huge advantage to su-57/35 over 4th generation fighters. They are buying lot of them to replace the r27.

    Su-57 carries R-37M which is their counterpart to meteor...

    They are buying all sorts of new missiles in numbers they never bought missiles before, but when intercepting B-52s R-27s and R-73s and of course the 30mm cannon are just fine...

    Russians don't bet on BVR and they have r-27ER/ET/P (radar, IR, passive radar). AMRAAM is only a radar guided with its small inboard radar and not really effective against modern jammers.

    Only the French have variety in BVR missiles like the Russians do... respekt

    Russia doesnt use R-27Es. They're only for export. It seems like the majority of their R-27 stocks have 80km max range compared to 105km on the AIM-120C-7, and 160km on the AIM-120D.

    E often means export on Russian stuff but in this case it means enlarged or extended rocket motor.

    They use R-27 and R-27E missiles in enormous numbers and in a very wide range of types and versions... you would actually be hard pushed to find a photo of an R-27... they are not widely used and are smaller and lighter and shorter ranged than the R-27E models.

    The R-77-1 has 110km range while the more common R-77 base model also has 80km range, so they're not AIM-120D equivalents, but only AIM-120C-7 equivalents.

    As already mentioned they don't use the R-77 base model, all their missiles are 110km and the new 200km plus range models.

    Also why do you assume US(and french for that matter) missile designers are bumbling fools who havent taken into account the jamming threat on ARH missiles and created jam resistant designs?

    They are not, but before the US encountered Russian systems in Syria and Ukraine they assumed Russian electronic capabilities were crap.... they were wrong.

    About a lot of things.

    That seems more plausible, they simply didnt have money and relegated what little money there was to SAMs probably.

    Why buy thousands of missiles that most of your in service planes can't use would be the obvious answer to the question why they didn't buy any before 2010.

    I dont think there was a R-27EP, passive homming.

    There were both R-27P and R-27EP to protect the MiG-29 and Su-27 respectively from Sparrow armed F-15s and Skyflash armed British fighters.

    Mig29A/B had the 80km range R-27R/T missiles.

    The MiG-29A/B could not use the R-27T, only the R and P models.

    its standard armament was two R-27Rs and four R-60s until production of R-73s made them standard instead...

    Mig-29S was the first to use R-77. But russians weren't really happy with it and its 80km range.

    It was very expensive and the clunky cockpit design meant it was not as easy to use as it would be in a later model MiG, and its range was less than the E model R-27s too.

    AIM120D isn't exported and its range will never be 160km. Max range is around 140km but just like other missiles its effective range against a fighter would be 60-70km. If you launch a missile at max range it can only hit a big plane.

    Max ranges normally assume high altitude high speed launch against a closing non manouvering large aircraft...

    Any BVR missile near its max range is next to useless and can easily be evaded.

    The only missile that is very good at its max range is the meteor because it is powered all the way. R-77M will be a dual pulse motor, it start like old r-77 and then in final phase start its engine again to regain its speed and increase the range.

    Even ramjet powered missiles are nothing light little fighter planes... the speeds they will be moving at are enormous and their actual control surfaces are tiny so super high g turns might turn a few degrees in either direction per second.... if these missiles miss then they are probably not going to do a U turn and come back and have another go... at max range they will be flying a high lofted trajectory and will likely come roaring down on the target at mach 5 or mach 6... at such speeds it would need 150kms to turn 180 degrees and if it was coming down from high altitude at you that means you would have to be 180km up in the air for it to have enough room to blow past and then turn around and have another go.

    Having said that at mach 5 or six.... one second before impact it is going to be over one kilometre away and pointing directly at you the size of a small bread and butter plate with fins sticking out... in the one second when it covers that last kilometre from where it is to where you are you wont have time to see it and turn out of its way... that is just silly.

    That's only speculation. We don't even know if they will use the Morphei on Su-57. It is just a ground to air missile as of now and it will certainly not be used to target incoming missiles.

    It will be used in the ground based version to defend the vehicle from enemy standoff weapons... the S-350 will use 9M96 missiles against aircraft and cruise missiles out to 150km and 60km respectively with two different sized 9M96 ARH missiles and the 9M100 are supposed to perform the role of the TOR system to defend the battery as they replace old model S-300 batteries. In the Naval version the same setup is used with 9M96 for shooting down anti ship missiles and aircraft and the 9M100 for close in self defence like a SEA RAM type but with vertical launch (more stealthy) and an IIR seeker with two way digital datalink and lock on after launch.

    [quote]
    Nonetheless nowadays it appears Fakel will not enter any A2A application anytime soon. 9M100 and 9M96 would be part of S-350 system. /quote]

    The lock on after launch capability and IIR seeker and digital datalink make it ideal for internal carriage on stealth aircraft like fighters and bombers.

    The wing mounted location for the R-73 on the Su-57 is supposed to be the launch location for the 9M100 but because it is smaller and lighter they would probably be able to carry three or four in each location the way four are carried for each 9M96 missile tube.

    There hasnt been a major air war since the 90s. BVR technology has improved massively since then. You're like those generals who said that cavalry will always be superior to tanks.

    But in this case we are talking about a super power shooting at Su-22s and still failing... unaware targets with no capacity to defend themselves should be ideal and easy targets, yet their best weapons miss. The AIM-9X was described by many in the west as a Hittile.

    The AIM-120D is still being produced in significant numbers for the USAF, which is Russia's principal opponent.

    When they start launching AAMs at each other I don't think either missiles will be hitting much...

    According to the US airforce it has 160+km range. Where did you get 140km from? The no escape zone for a missile is proportional to its range. The one for R-77-1 is even smaller than for the AIM-120D.

    Max range is under ideal situation and never used because it makes it trivial to evade... just change direction and altitude and speed a couple of times and it will drop to the ground.

    Also if the americans are exaggerating their missile performance whats the chance the French and Russians are too?

    The Americans are the worlds best salesmen... which also makes them the worlds biggest liars...

    In any case, those very far launches have small tactical significance against fighters and will fail every time, unless the target is unaware of the attack.

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    Isos
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    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:09 pm

    Only the French have variety in BVR missiles like the Russians do... respekt

    Yes and no. They have ARH and IR MICA which are used as bvr and wvr missiles and they have 80km ranges (but it could be >100km in the same conditions when a r-77-1 reaches 110km). French give generally effective ranges and not "max" ranges for their missiles.

    They don't have a r-73/Sidewinder type.


    Even ramjet powered missiles are nothing light little fighter planes... the speeds they will be moving at are enormous and their actual control surfaces are tiny so super high g turns might turn a few degrees in either direction per second....

    Meteor is a mach 3-4 and can reduce its speed smart way.

    What you say applies for R-37M. And that's why it is used against awaxs or cruise missiles that have straight trajectories.
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    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:29 pm

    GarryB in su-27 thread wrote:They are putting an IIR seeker on the Hermes missile for use against ground and air targets that has a two way datalink and a lock on after launch guidance system.... fitting such a seeker to an R-27E missile... or even an R-37M missile would be rather interesting don't you agree?

    I answer her.

    I think that future missiles will have dual seakers. ARH and IIR. A bit like the new kh58USHKe that has a passive anti radiation radar and IR seaker.

    Modern electronics are small enough to allow both on a same missile.

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