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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    GarryB
    GarryB


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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty AFAIK Morfei will be a very ambitious weapon whose capability will be rather impressive.

    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:46 am

    AFAIK Morfei will be a very ambitious weapon whose capability will be rather impressive.

    It is a force unified missile so the Air force will use it as the standard short range IR guided missile, while the Army will use it as a short range SAM and the Navy will use it as a CIWS short range missile.

    It is reported to use IIR QWIP sensor that actually sees the world in images rather than hot points like old IR guided missiles.

    Just as importantly it has a datalink that allows lock on after launch capability... in other words on a ship or submarine you can have these missiles in vertical launch tubes... when the target is detected a missile is launched on autopilot and it flys in the direction of the target and starts looking with its IIR sensor... finds the target and locks on.

    this is critical for 5th gen stealth aircraft as it allows the missile to be ejected from an internal weapons bay and fly towards the target and then get a lock. In comparison the fairly clumsy arrangement on the F-22 has the Sidewinders extended out of the weapon bays to allow the seekers see their targets before launch.

    Lock on after launch or LOAL means much shorter periods with bays open and also opens the possibility for similar seekers to be used in situations like tank gun launched anti tank weapons where the target is acquired after launch including a top attack munition with a diving top attack profile.

    QWIP sensors wont be cheap initially but over time their costs should drop the way CCD sensor chips have to a few cents... making diving top attack munitions cheaper but also much more capable.

    The datalink can be used to select targets from the launch platform so firing multiple missiles does not lead to them all locking on to the same target or each other.
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    Austin


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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  Austin Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:55 pm

    what ever happened to the Ultra Short range missile under development that was similar to Iron Dome in concept , suddenly there is no news there ?
    franco
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  franco Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:30 pm

    Austin wrote:what ever happened to the Ultra Short range missile under development that was similar to Iron Dome in concept , suddenly there is no news there ?

    Read last year there were development problems. What I don't know.
    GarryB
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty what ever happened to the Ultra Short range missile under development that was similar to Iron Dome in concept , suddenly there is no news there ?

    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:23 am

    what ever happened to the Ultra Short range missile under development that was similar to Iron Dome in concept , suddenly there is no news there ?

    You mean Morfei? 9M100?

    Well I remember in the late 1980s the Mi28 was revealed at foreign airshows, but the Ka-50 was kept secret... mainly because the Ka-50 was accepted for service and the Mi-28 was not.

    Silence can mean problems with development or they can mean they are not prepared to export them any time soon so they don't reveal any information about them to the public.

    d_taddei2
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Another question How effective is Tor M1&M2 and Buk M1,M2, M3 and tunguska against western aircraft?

    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:06 pm

    Another question How effective is Tor M1&M2 and Buk M1,M2, M3 and tunguska against western aircraft?
    GarryB
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:44 am

    I doubt we will find out because I doubt western aircraft would knowingly fly within range of any such systems.
    Isos
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  Isos Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:I doubt we will find out because I doubt western aircraft would knowingly fly within range of any such systems.

    The best thing to do is to ambush fighter by turning radars on jut when they are in range. They should have however good communictions to know fighters are there.

    Another question How effective is Tor M1&M2 and Buk M1,M2, M3 and tunguska against western aircraft?

    Israeli mannaged to evade Syrian Buk missiles. Who knows how they managed to do that (jamming, being at limit range and escaping missiles ..) but they are very good system specially Buk M3, they (specialist who made it) said that it is better than S-300P.
    miketheterrible
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  miketheterrible Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:16 pm

    How they managed to strike Syrian Buks are rather easy - they either struck them while they were on the move (their missiles wouldn't be protruding and radar obviously not in use) and or they struck it outside of range (flying in Israeli territory and dropping a guided munitions than 50km away).

    While Buks are awesome systems, they are rather static when they are to be deployed. So they are good for providing air cover for a forward operating base or some kind of formation that isn't mobile at the time. Tor is mean for fighting while on move and against PGM's.
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  extreme_one Sun May 13, 2018 2:42 am

    If you were to purchase the very best Russian systems for an imaginary country with no existing SAMs and no limit on money what would your choices be for the air defense force, army and navy?
    Feel free to suggest if any of the below systems shouldn't even be in the discussion or changed to a newer version I haven't listed.

    9K333 Verba
    9K33 Osa
    9K35 Strela-10
    2K22 Tunguska
    Pantsir-SM
    Buk-M3
    Tor-M2U
    Sosna-R
    Bagulnik
    42S6 Morfey
    S-350E Vityaz 50R6
    S-300V4
    S-400
    S-500
    A–235
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    extreme_one


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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  extreme_one Sun May 20, 2018 9:40 pm

    Is this forum dead? =(
    Hole
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  Hole Mon May 21, 2018 11:38 am

    Yes, you killed it. Very Happy


    Suggestions:

    Army: S-300V4, Buk-M3, Tor-M2, Tunguska-M1, Sosna, Verba

    Air force: S-500, S-350, Pantsir
    George1
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  George1 Mon May 21, 2018 2:10 pm

    extreme_one wrote:If you were to purchase the very best Russian systems for an imaginary country with no existing SAMs and no limit on money what would your choices be for the air defense force, army and navy?
    Feel free to suggest if any of the below systems shouldn't even be in the discussion or changed to a newer version I haven't listed.

    9K333 Verba
    9K33 Osa
    9K35 Strela-10
    2K22 Tunguska
    Pantsir-SM  
    Buk-M3
    Tor-M2U
    Sosna-R
    Bagulnik
    42S6 Morfey
    S-350E Vityaz 50R6
    S-300V4
    S-400
    S-500
    A–235

    depends on the adversary..
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  extreme_one Mon May 21, 2018 4:37 pm

    George1 wrote:
    extreme_one wrote:If you were to purchase the very best Russian systems for an imaginary country with no existing SAMs and no limit on money what would your choices be for the air defense force, army and navy?
    Feel free to suggest if any of the below systems shouldn't even be in the discussion or changed to a newer version I haven't listed.

    9K333 Verba
    9K33 Osa
    9K35 Strela-10
    2K22 Tunguska
    Pantsir-SM  
    Buk-M3
    Tor-M2U
    Sosna-R
    Bagulnik
    42S6 Morfey
    S-350E Vityaz 50R6
    S-300V4
    S-400
    S-500
    A–235

    depends on the adversary..

    This is a shopping list for Iran. Disregarding the current equipment they have.
    I would think in the first days of the attack they would launch around 500 cruise missiles.
    Google has a map with all the US bases around Iran
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=29.075375241390315%2C53.876952687499966&spn=30.823114%2C43.945313&t=h&msa=0&z=5&source=embed&ie=UTF8&mid=1XmUD73hHQVBbdm8UcIrRtAcCgTg



    miketheterrible
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  miketheterrible Mon May 21, 2018 5:53 pm

    In that regard, to being hit by ridiculous amount of missiles, then SHORADS and possibly medium range missiles, with a whole lot to dispense, is ideal.

    So in this regard, Pantsirs are much needed and possibly the best option next to modern Tor-M2 using the newest missile 9M338.

    For medium range, HQ-16, Shtil knockoff for land use, may be a good option as it carries more missiles.
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    Post  extreme_one Mon May 21, 2018 6:17 pm

    They have a $16B/year military budget.
    Makes you think what they spend it on since they are not buying anything.
    They have a massive need for hardware and I think the US withdrawal is the perfect excuse to not follow the weapons embargo. Although I think Russia has turned soft in recent weeks.

    After the initial cruise missiles strike, aircraft would start attacking.

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Mon May 21, 2018 9:54 pm

    Iran has its own arms industry. They build there own drones, ASM´s, SAM´s and a lot of other stuff.
    George1
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  George1 Mon May 21, 2018 10:30 pm

    extreme_one wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    extreme_one wrote:If you were to purchase the very best Russian systems for an imaginary country with no existing SAMs and no limit on money what would your choices be for the air defense force, army and navy?
    Feel free to suggest if any of the below systems shouldn't even be in the discussion or changed to a newer version I haven't listed.

    9K333 Verba
    9K33 Osa
    9K35 Strela-10
    2K22 Tunguska
    Pantsir-SM  
    Buk-M3
    Tor-M2U
    Sosna-R
    Bagulnik
    42S6 Morfey
    S-350E Vityaz 50R6
    S-300V4
    S-400
    S-500
    A–235

    depends on the adversary..

    This is a shopping list for Iran. Disregarding the current equipment they have.
    I would think in the first days of the attack they would launch around 500 cruise missiles.
    Google has a map with all the US bases around Iran
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=29.075375241390315%2C53.876952687499966&spn=30.823114%2C43.945313&t=h&msa=0&z=5&source=embed&ie=UTF8&mid=1XmUD73hHQVBbdm8UcIrRtAcCgTg




    even though, ABMs S-500 and A–235 aren't for export.
    GarryB
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  GarryB Tue May 22, 2018 10:14 am

    Well, to be honest the Pantsir has proven to be effective against cruise missiles, but I would back it up with 4-6 A-50s and later with an export model of the A-100.

    I would sell to the Iranians the licence to produce as many Pantsir missiles as they like for 1 dollar, on the condition that it is only for domestic Iranian self defence use... they can put them on trucks, armoured vehicles, ships, they can mount them on aircraft... manned and unmanned.

    I would also sell them some MiG-31s and a licence to produce R-33s... for domestic use only.

    Looking at that map of nearby US bases I would also sell them Iskander missiles, and the licence to produce them minus the guidance, which I would sell to them... as many as they wanted.

    But most important I would provide them with a communications network and command system that allows all of their SAM batteries to communicate, and work together to deal with external threats together in a unified way.

    The British won the battle of britain, not because they had more planes or better planes or better pilots... they won because they had better command and control and radar. They didn't need to patrol all the time looking for threats or attacks... they could rest planes and pilots but when an attack came they could concentrate their forces to meet that attack. They had fewer planes but in the air they could bring as many aircraft to bear as they needed to get local superiority.

    It is the same with attacks from cruise missiles... and it is easier to use air and ground assets together.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Tue May 22, 2018 10:30 am

    Russian-Iranian company. Best way for both sides. Earn money. Get modern weapons.
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    Post  extreme_one Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:07 pm

    What role would Bagulnik (replacing 9M337 Sosna-R) play in combination with other SAMs?
    Point defense I guess. I don't see many people talking about it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M337_Sosna-R



    Last edited by extreme_one on Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  extreme_one Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:39 pm

    My shopping list for Iran would be:

    Pantsir-SM on MAN SX 45 8x8 trucks
    Buk-M3
    Tor-M2U
    S-400 (Tuf-MA and Tuf-M2)

    Although it seems that 40N6 missile is not yet operational as a single S-400 TEL would be able to carry only two 40N6 missiles and currently
    we only see TELs with standard 4 missiles configuration.
    So if a country would like to have the longer range SAM, S-300V4 with 9M82MD missiles would be the choice for immediate delivery.

    The current state of 42S6 Morfey and 50R6 Vityaz missile system is also unknown.
    Hole
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    P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: P.V.O. (Russian Air Defence) General Thread:

    Post  Hole Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:13 pm

    extreme_one wrote:What role would Bagulnik (replacing 9M337 Sosna-R) play in combination with other SAMs?
    Point defense I guess. I don't see many people talking about it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M337_Sosna-R


    Sosna will replace Strela-10 in the role as short range air defence system to defend the batallions of a brigade.
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    Post  extreme_one Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:18 pm

    Hole wrote:
    extreme_one wrote:What role would Bagulnik (replacing 9M337 Sosna-R) play in combination with other SAMs?
    Point defense I guess. I don't see many people talking about it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M337_Sosna-R


    Sosna will replace Strela-10 in the role as short range air defence system to defend the batallions of a brigade.


    I thought, after reading Wikipedia, that Bagulnik will replace Sosna.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:21 am

    What role would Bagulnik (replacing 9M337 Sosna-R) play in combination with other SAMs?
    Point defense I guess. I don't see many people talking about it.

    Short range point defence, it will replace SA-9, SA-13, and in some roles it will replace Pantsir because it is smaller and lighter and cheaper, though not as effective.

    It will also likely replace the ZU-23-2 towed 23mm anti aircraft system for use against drones.

    I thought, after reading Wikipedia, that Bagulnik will replace Sosna.

    SOSNA-R is Bagulnik.

    It is a very high speed high acceleration two stage short range missile that is rather small and compact compared with other two stage weapons like SA-19 and SA-22.

    The missile is very low cost and has mostly optics for fire control so it is very low emission.

    It is rather small and light and relatively cheap, so it will be rather mobile.

    think of it as a two stage mach 3+ Kornet anti tank missile but optimised for engaging air targets. (it is a laser beam rider, so DIRCMs wont stop it like they will IR guided weapons like MANPADS or SA-9 and SA-13).
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    Post  bolshevik345 Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:22 pm

    Does the PVO have any strategies to deal with mass MALD deployment and SDB launches? I am not an electrical or software engineer, but AFAIK the smaller the guidance system, the more easily its jammed, and the SDB is small. Or am I wrong?

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