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    BMP-1 & BMP-2 in Russian Army

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:21 pm

    I would add that the BTR series had 14.5mm far better than what western APC had at the time which at best was .50cal but in British army 7.62mm was the best you got. The 14.5mm would have zero problem ripping through Saxon and 432 which only had 7.62mm protection at certain ranges and not against 7.62mm AP rounds. And bear in mind they used these Saxons and 432 well into the mid-late 2000's. It was only Afghanistan and Iraq that changed this. Snatch Land rover was also used this again only useful for Northern Ireland.

    I remember the BTR-90 the west was genuinely concerned and was pretty thankful that economic woes had hampered procurement of these. These came out at time when the west seen how useful 30mm actually was during Kosovo conflict the 30mm proved to very useful and the west liked it and wanted more. The Russians came out with a BTR series vehicle that not only had 30mm(in West it was seen that this type of gun was more for tracked armour than wheeled) but had konkurs and improved armour and still retained its great mobility and amphibious capabilities this concept was generally unheard-of in western systems. If you look into it the west only started to have similar type vehicles in the 80/90's and they weren't heavily armed. The west saw how useful the BTR-60/70 was and basically designed their own version.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:49 am

    The BTR-90 was closer in spec and cost to a BMP than a BTR.

    The concept of the BTR was effectively bullet proof amphibious truck made of existing bits... the first BTR-60s were open topped and had a very commonly used truck engine for propulsion. Unfortunately the engine, while very common and cheap, was not really powerful enough and so they used two of them to be used... the transmission caused problems for years, but as I said... they were cheap and very very mobile on roads and with reasonable cross country capability. They were much cheaper to run than any tracked vehicle too which is why they kept them.

    I remember computer games in the early 1990s like M1 Abrams where the manual stated these pathetic vehicles would never get produced in America because congress or something would block them. It was that the Soviets didn't care about their people that they had these.

    Obviously soldiers in a BTR-60 were much better protected than troops in a truck and much more mobile than troops that were walking... and the 14.5mm HMG and rifle calibre machine gun meant they were better armed than their opponents equivalents... the 50 cal HMG on an M113 would take out a BTR but then the 14.5mm gun of the BTR would waste pretty much any western APC of the time too. The 14.5mm was used by the Soviets where the west would use a 20mm cannon and while the 14.5mm didn't have the HE capacity of a 20mm it did have significantly better penetration with full calibre rounds.

    Later on a more powerful truck engine was used in the BTR-80 which greatly simplified the transmission and the guns got higher elevation mounts (60 degrees instead of 30) Considering the concept of all APCS is just transport... you are not supposed to fight from the vehicles... they drop you off and sit behind you providing fire support as you move forward... its armament made it better at that than many western equivalents that often had external gun mounts with the gunner exposed to fragments and even pistol fire.

    Afghanistan showed that even with a tire completely destroyed by a land mine it could keep driving.

    I remember a review of the vehicle by a US Army officer who got to drive one... he called it the ultimate RV (recreational vehicle). He said it just bounced across country he didn't expect to cross but did.

    Ironically now the US uses Stryker, which is not that much better armoured than late model BTR-80s.

    Russia is now also moving forward with Boomerang and with its high mobility and fire power and low operating costs I suspect they will have perhaps half their armoured force in wheeled vehicles in the European regions because they will have comparable armour and performance with Kurganets but will be much cheaper to buy and much much cheaper and easier to operate... as mentioned during a test of a wheeled artillery vehicle recently they drove 5,000km in the tests, for a tracked vehicle it would be time for a factory overhaul after that...

    And to be fair tracked vehicles can get stuck too.

    During WWII the Soviets actually liked the British Matilda tanks but their tracks were too flat so they had to wield metal bars on the tracks for grip on ice and snow and soft ground... (Didn't like their fire power though...)
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:46 am

    GarryB wrote:(Didn't like their fire power though...)

    Didn't they fix that by adding the KV-1s gun?
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:46 am

    The KV-1s gun was the T-34s gun.... I am sure if they could have they would have... it was slower than the T-34 but had good armour for the period.

    It wasn't particularly reliable but then most tanks were not super reliable... a bit like cars really... up until the 1970s after 10,000km you usually had to get your rings and bearings done and the plugs checked for timing etc etc.

    The BTR-90 loses the front windscreens and looks less like an armoured truck and more like a wheeled BMP... it is sort of a transition from a BTR to a BMP really... a wheeled BMP.

    The Boomerang though is better with the engine at the front making exit and entry to the troop compartment much easier...
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    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:21 am

    BMP-2M "Berezhok"

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    Post  AJ-47 on Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:34 pm

    Why the BMP-2 Upgrade has 30mm AGL and not the Balkan 40mm AGL? and is the 40mm has Air-burst rounds?
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:29 am

    The 40mm grenade launcher probably wasn't ready when they designed the upgrade...

    It is the 40mm under barrel grenades that have cheap air burst rounds, but I suspect the new 40mm grenades would be able to be designed with the same.

    Check out these vids:



    And a comparison with the AGS-17, AG-30 and the Balkan... the balloons indicate fragment performance... the first is good, the second much lighter and at 16kgs with tripod very portable and mobile, but the Balkan has more power and more range...



    Sorry... the above video showed the Balkan grenade at about 5 minutes 35 seconds... it has the same pointed nose fuse part as the airburst 40mm underbarrel grenade so I suspect it is air burst too. The underbarrel 40mm grenade is shorter and smaller and has a narrow rear section with no rim for autoloading weapons.

    In this video there are balloons to show the effect of 40mm grenades exploding...



    I suspect they might keep the AG-30 in service because it is so light and very effective. For vehicle mounts I could see the heavier but longer ranged and more powerful 40mm Balkan taking over once its design has been perfected.

    Have seen new models with box shaped external bodies... like this:



    This might be an upgraded vehicle mount/man portable model that will eventually replace the 30mm vehicle mounted weapons and if they can make it light enough also replace the AGS-30 too... hard to tell without information on performance specs.
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    Post  Hole on Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:59 am

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    Post  franco on Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:57 pm

    Photo from Barnaul so probably coming from the Rubtsovsk plant. Looks like enough to refit a battalion. No news yet as to where they are going. Up to 15 battalions of the BMP-1 still operating from what I have read, all in the East.

    PS; sorry forgot the 102nd in Armenia which may still have a battalion.
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    Post  medo on Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:07 pm

    So Russian army actually receive BMP-1AM. I hope they are equipped with TKN-4GA-03 sight with thermal imager and laser programing device for distant fuse airburst ammunition. This turret have quite high elevation with +70o with both gun and main sight with all channels. It will be actually very useful for protection against drones. It would be great, if Russia also modernize LDNR BMP-1s with this goodies. Airburst munition would be excellent against drones, Javelins and infantry in trenches.
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    Post  AJ-47 on Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:12 am

    [quote="GarryB"]The 40mm grenade launcher probably wasn't ready when they designed the upgrade...

    The reason I’m asking is that the American MK-47 40 mm AGL has air burst ammo that will be very effective against small UAV that might get dangers if they attack in swarm formation. This new UAV will be in any A-symmetric war and it will be a good idea to get ready.

    I would like to add few words about these old vehicles.

    1. If Russia wants to keep thousand of BMP-1 and BMP-2 in reserved, they need to keep a certain amount of BMPs in duty service to teach new soldiers who to operate those vehicles.

    2. You also may need from time to time to upgrade those vehicles and keep them in a good shape so they can fight if it will be needed.

    3. I will try to make the same upgrade for the BMP-1 and BMP-2 it’s the same family and they need to have common equipment. So I will upgrade both vehicles with the same turret, same gun, same vision system and so on. The Berezhok turret should mount on both vehicles with the Kornet ATGM.

    4. In USA they just now start replacing the M-113 that it’s work behind the line of fire with all kind of jobs that some explain here, but don’t put them in medics for that we need tank ambulance. The replacement for the M-113 is the Bradley without turret.

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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:11 am

    Yes, commonality of parts will reduce overall prices and give a huge boost in performance if done correctly. Russia doesn't do that for most part until recently with T-72's. But even then they need to make a similar upgrade of t-90MS to all of its tank fleet to make it cheaper in long run and give the best possible upgrade to their tanks. Same can be applied to the BMP's.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:37 am

    The same turret doesn´t fit to the BMP-1 and the BMP-2 because the BMP-1 had a one-man turret. But there is a "light" version of Berezhok which is used to modernise the BMD-2.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:39 am

    The reason I’m asking is that the American MK-47 40 mm AGL has air burst ammo that will be very effective against small UAV that might get dangers if they attack in swarm formation. This new UAV will be in any A-symmetric war and it will be a good idea to get ready.

    Well the Russians have developed an airburst system for their 30mm cannon shells which should also work in 40mm grenades I suppose.

    The American method of airburst ammo is a very precise timer in the grenade... which is enormously expensive... to be useful they need to be very very accurate and obviously are destroyed each time the grenades are used.

    Their 20mm grenade launcher isn't being used because it was so damn expensive and it was expensive because of the air burst ammo.

    1. If Russia wants to keep thousand of BMP-1 and BMP-2 in reserved, they need to keep a certain amount of BMPs in duty service to teach new soldiers who to operate those vehicles.

    Yeah, the point of vehicles in reserve is that if a big war or conflict comes and you need to call up reserves these are people who recently served and are already trained on these older vehicles. Obviously these old vehicles have upgraded comms and systems, but of course they will be given some time to learn to do it all again.

    2. You also may need from time to time to upgrade those vehicles and keep them in a good shape so they can fight if it will be needed.

    Generally they get upgrades while in storage as part of routine maintenance...

    3. I will try to make the same upgrade for the BMP-1 and BMP-2 it’s the same family and they need to have common equipment. So I will upgrade both vehicles with the same turret, same gun, same vision system and so on. The Berezhok turret should mount on both vehicles with the Kornet ATGM.

    BMP-1 has a small single man turret that wont fit the much bigger two man BMP-2 turret. As shown above the turret for the upgraded BTR-82A will be fine... modern optics and modern weapons etc etc...

    4. In USA they just now start replacing the M-113 that it’s work behind the line of fire with all kind of jobs that some explain here, but don’t put them in medics for that we need tank ambulance. The replacement for the M-113 is the Bradley without turret.

    The Soviet equivalent of the M113 is the BTR-50 which is long gone.

    BTR-82s have better mobility than older BMPs and acceptable fire power and armour... for just moving troops around a battlefield they are probably better than BMP-1.

    To be clear a lot of the different vehicles in a Russian or Soviet division (tank or motor rifle) are BTR or BMP or T series tank or MTLB based vehicles already so parts and components are abundant.

    Most of the upgrades and improvements for the T-72, T-80 and T-90 have been to unify and Russianify these vehicles... the T-54/55 and T-62 and T-64 are going which will eliminate one rifled 100mm gun and one 115mm smoothbore gun from the inventory, so now tank guns pretty much consist of 125mm calibre weapons, while towed anti tank guns are either 100mm smoothbores (MT-12s) or 125mm smoothbores...

    You might think they are screwing up all their good work with the three new vehicle families, but in actual fact currently they have about 26-27 vehicle types in a division of which there are BTR and BMP and MTLB and BRDM as well as T series tank chassis being used together with other types like the GTSM platform the Tunguska uses and Grad trucks etc etc... with their new vehicle families there will be one chassis type per division though there might be variations... for instance the Armata has front mounted engines for APCs and IFVs and rear mounted engines for MBTs, or the Typhoon has four and six wheeled versions depending on the weight and role...
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:59 am

    Note the 40mm grenade airbursting ammo for their underbarrel grenades in use since the early 1980s was very simple... the nose fuse had a bursting impact charge connected to a very short fuse and then the main charge. On impact the impact charge blew the grenade up off the ground and into the air followed by the main charge that generally went off when the grenade was 1.5-2m in the air... the two explosions went off so fast it sounded like one explosion with no time to duck or dodge.

    Cheap and simple... worked at any range... easy to mass produce... and very effective... a grenade exploding at your feet is much less dangerous than one exploding in your face. Much more lethal because head and chest injuries are more life threatening than leg injuries... not that I would like either.

    No good for hitting flying targets of course because there is no proximity fuse to set it off... but using the same system they use with lasers and 30mm cannon shells it should work fine.

    For their fighter aircraft they had what would probably be called a frangible round... they called it a cargo round and it basically had a timed fuse in the rear of the projectile with a small HE charge and the front of the round was filled with fragments like little metal shapes. After a specific time.. usually a few seconds the charge goes off and the round explodes and sends a shower of fragments forward in a shower towards the target... it was used against soft vehicles or troops in the open and was rather devastating. It exploded the rounds at about 1.8km away from the muzzle so of course with a laser rangefinder it could be very effective against targets on the ground or in the air. It would be very suitable for shooting down balloons for instance... but is designed to engage enemy troops in the open on the ground... from an aircraft. I guess the Hind or Havoc or Hokum could use it too...

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    Post  AJ-47 on Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:01 am

    Hole wrote:The same turret doesn´t fit to the BMP-1 and the BMP-2 because the BMP-1 had a one-man turret. But there is a "light" version of Berezhok which is used to modernize the BMD-2.

    Yes there is a turret like the Berezhok with only 2 missile on one side and without the AGL.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:55 am

    That is a BMD, I suspect it is a lightweight version of Berezhok specially designed for para dropping that stops the vehicle becoming too top heavy... or just too heavy to drop safely.
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    Post  AJ-47 on Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:11 pm

    Is it possible to make the barrel of the 40mm AGL longer to get a better range and higher M.V?
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    Post  AJ-47 on Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:20 pm

    medo wrote:So Russian army actually receive BMP-1AM. I hope they are equipped with TKN-4GA-03 sight with thermal imager and laser programing device for distant fuse airburst ammunition. This turret have quite high elevation with +70o with both gun and main sight with all channels. It will be actually very useful for protection against drones. It would be great, if Russia also modernize LDNR BMP-1s with this goodies. Airburst munition would be excellent against drones, Javelins and infantry in trenches.

    What is the LDNR BMP-1?
    And is the 30mm has Airburst round?
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    Post  medo on Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:52 pm

    AJ-47 wrote:
    medo wrote:So Russian army actually receive BMP-1AM. I hope they are equipped with TKN-4GA-03 sight with thermal imager and laser programing device for distant fuse airburst ammunition. This turret have quite high elevation with +70o with both gun and main sight with all channels. It will be actually very useful for protection against drones. It would be great, if Russia also modernize LDNR BMP-1s with this goodies. Airburst munition would be excellent against drones, Javelins and infantry in trenches.

    What is the LDNR BMP-1?
    And is the 30mm has Airburst round?

    LDNR BMP-1 is BMP-1 in armament of Donetsk and Lugansk armed forces.

    Yes, Russia have 30x165 mm air burst ammunition for 2A42, 2A72, 2A38, etc guns.

    BMP-1 & BMP-2 in Russian Army - Page 9 1-290513

    BMP-1AM use the same turrest as BTR-82A, which use TKN-4GA-01 day/night sight, which is considered as anti aircradft sight as it have high elevation with all channels. BTR-82A have day/night sight with laser range finder, ballistic computer and gyrostabilised gun. Newer TKN-4GA-02 and TKN-4GA-03 have installed system to use laser programable air burst ammunition. Difference between them is, that TKN-4GA-02 use image intensifier night channel, while TKN-4GA-03 use thermal imaging channel.

    https://www.romz.ru/ru/catalog/pricel-tkn-4ga-02.htm/desc/

    Комбинированный универсальный прицел ТКН-4ГА-02 предназначен для ведения наблюдения в боевых условиях, поиска, обнаружения, опознавания целей и обеспечения прицельной стрельбы из комплекса пушечно-пулеметного (пушка калибра 30 мм (2А72, 2А42 и т.п.) и пулемет ПКТ(М) калибра 7,62 мм), из комплекса пулеметного (пулемет КПВТ калибра 14,5 мм и пулемет ПКТ(М)) вооружения объекта БТВТ по наземным и воздушным целям в дневных и ночных условиях.
    Модификация ТКН-4ГА-02 представляет собой серийный прицел ТКН-4ГА-01 с размещением в изделии дополнительного канала комплекса дистанционного управления временем подрыва снарядов (КДУ ВПС).
    Прицел ТКН-4ГА-02 с системой КДУ ВПС обеспечивает возможность ведения стрельбы специализированными 30-мм осколочно-фугасными снарядами типа 3УОФ8 и 3УОФ23, применяемыми для осуществления дистанционного подрыва снаряда в воздухе над выбранной целью, без непосредственного контакта с ней.
    Прицел ТКН-4ГА-02 предназначен для установки на колесных бронетранспортерах типа БТР-80, БТР-82, БТР-82А, а также в объектах типа БМП, БМД, МТ-ЛБМ, ПТ.

    The combined universal sight TKN-4GA-02 is designed to conduct surveillance in combat conditions, search, detect, identify targets and provide targeted shooting from a cannon-machine gun complex (30 mm caliber gun (2A72, 2A42, etc.) and a PKT machine gun ( M) of a caliber of 7.62 mm), from a machine-gun complex (a 14.5 mm KPVT machine gun and a PKT (M) machine gun) armament of an BTVT object for ground and air targets in day and night conditions.
    Modification TKN-4GA-02 is a serial sight TKN-4GA-01 with the placement in the product of an additional channel complex remote control time for undermining shells (KDU VPS).
    The TKN-4GA-02 sight with the VPS KDU system provides the possibility of firing with specialized 30-mm high-explosive fragmentation shells of the 3UOF8 and 3UOF23 type, used to carry out remote bombardment of a projectile in the air above a selected target, without direct contact with it.
    The TKN-4GA-02 sight is designed for installation on wheeled armored personnel carriers of the BTR-80, BTR-82, BTR-82A type, as well as in objects of the BMP, BMD, MT-LBM, PT type.

    https://www.romz.ru/ru/catalog/pricel-tkn-4ga-03.htm

    Модификация ТКН-4ГА-03 представляет собой модернизированный прицел ТКН-4ГА-02 с КДУ ВПС и размещенным в изделии всесуточным тепловизионным каналом (вместо комбинированного дневно-ночного на ЭОПе). Применение тепловизионного канала в прицеле ТКН-4ГА-03 даёт возможность осуществления наблюдения, ведения прицельной стрельбы по наземным и воздушным целям круглосуточно, в том числе в неблагоприятных условиях: дым, туман, пыль, снегопад, дождь, маскировка.
    Прицел ТКН-4ГА-03 обеспечивает повышение параметров дальности видения и прицельной стрельбы объекта в 1,5÷2 раза по отношению к серийному изделию независимо от уровня внешней освещенности, времени суток, сезонных и погодных условий, особенностей боевой обстановки на местности, при использовании только пассивного режима.
    Прицел предназначен для установки в колесных бронетранспортерах типа БТР-80, БТР-82, БТР-82А, а также в объектах типа БМП, БМД, МТ-ЛБМ, ПТ.
    Конструктивно основной вариант прицела ТКН-4ГА-03 состоит из:
    - тепловизионного многократного канала;
    - дневного однократного канала.

    The TKN-4GA-03 modification is a modernized TKN-4GA-02 sight with a VPS KDU and an all-day thermal imaging channel located in the product (instead of the combined day-night on the image intensifier tube). The use of a thermal imaging channel in the TKN-4GA-03 sight makes it possible to carry out surveillance, conduct targeted fire at ground and air targets around the clock, including in adverse conditions: smoke, fog, dust, snowfall, rain, camouflage.
    The TKN-4GA-03 sight provides an increase in the parameters of the range of vision and aimed shooting of the object by 1.5 ÷ 2 times with respect to the serial product, regardless of the level of ambient light, time of day, seasonal and weather conditions, features of the combat situation on the ground, when using only passive mode.
    The sight is designed for installation in wheeled armored personnel carriers of the BTR-80, BTR-82, BTR-82A type, as well as in objects of the BMP, BMD, MT-LBM, PT type.
    Structurally, the main version of the sight TKN-4GA-03 consists of:
    - thermal imaging multiple channel;
    - daily single channel.

    BMP-1AM with new TKN-4GA-03 sight and air burst rounds could be very useful against small drones and ATGMs. But it also need good data link for receiving target informations. Very useful for DNR and LNR army.

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    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:54 am

    Is it possible to make the barrel of the 40mm AGL longer to get a better range and higher M.V?

    Probably, but essentially you are going to need to design a whole new gun with some sort of mechanism to retard reloading.

    The current models seem to be simple blow back... so when you watch them firing in slow motion there is a lot of muzzle flash but also propellent burning from the chamber of the weapon as it opens to reload. Just making it a locked breach gun should mean that blast coming out around the chamber during fire would remain contained and add velocity to the round.

    The fundamental problem however is that the 40mm grenade is a big fat round that is never going to be a supersonic round and making it a locked breach weapon might at 10kgs or more to the weight of the gun, while the increase in range might not be very significant at all.

    For a vehicle mount the extra weight wont matter...

    If you go up to my post above... number 207... and look at the third video down... a 3:38 on that video you can see the standard Balkan firing with flames all around its chamber and feed area... meaning the bolt is opening before all the propellent has burned.

    If you watch through the video below it with a squared off model of the Balkan... though it is clearly also designed for infantry use... there is no flame from the chamber and only a small flame from the muzzle. Only belt links should be getting ejected from this weapon as it fires... in addition to the grenades themselves from the muzzle of course.

    It suggests to me that the mechanism is changed... the barrel seems to be being shifted forward under recoil suggesting a locked chamber for firing which is why there is no chamber flash any more. This might improve range of the weapon because the projectile is getting more acceleration in the barrel and with a locked chamber the pressure will remain higher for longer meaning more push to the round.

    I suspect this new revised design is for vehicle mounted weapons because all that flash would include smoke and fumes inside the vehicle, while the squared off box shaped weapon should blow most of the gas down the barrel and out of the vehicle.

    But as I mentioned you are probably not going to get enormous velocity and therefore range increases with a longer barrel because of the basic shape and density of the grenade... being filled with HE makes them relatively light compared with a solid shot projectile so it would speed up faster in a barrel but also slow down faster in the air too...



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    kopyo-21

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    Post  kopyo-21 Today at 8:08 am

    The 40mm grenade launcher called AG-40 seems to be a competitor of AGS-40 Balkan that won the competion to become oficial 40mm grenade launcher for Russian Army.

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