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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:43 pm

    If Nakhimov is firing zircon in anger, you will not have twitter or even Google for that matter, and commercial sats probably will be offline from tropospheric jamming.

    So no, it wont be so easy. For some peacekeeping VMF can send some frigates and kilos like in syria.

    Nakhimov is fleet killing machine to be used after submarine cables have been cut and sats are being shot out of LEO, we talk of ww3, and if the enemy did not back down, most of us will have to learn to live in 1900 style
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:20 pm

    Isos wrote:One sub can destroy it if it is manned very well.

    The super hardware that fight ab entire army by itself doesn't exist.

    You need numbers. 1 ships will never be enough.

    Putting all their eggs on the Kirov is stupid. They need Gorshkovs in great numbers and upgrade other ships too. And that's what they are doing actually. They upgrade their oscar and udaloy and build a decent number of Gorshkov.

    Kirov will be central ships of task forces.

    With a Varan carrier it would be perfect.

    A sub will need to have lots of courage to get close to any Orlan protected by an absolutely massive sonar, the ASW group, the Paket-NK and the Otvet. And of course Russia has already implemented the distributed lethality concept orders of magnitude beyond what the US idea was, with Tsirkon on many small displacement vessels, so that critic ("Putting all their eggs on the Kirov is stupid") simply does not apply. The Nakhimov, once retrofitted with Tsirkon and modern systems and AD, will be the most powerful vessel in the world and its presence in any theater (even without a carrier going with her) will need to be compensated by a disproportionate number of enemy assets, which means a non linear leap for the VMF in order to keep the USN in check in the world ocean with a low fraction of the fleet size, costs and in a record time. It is a master move.


    Last edited by LMFS on Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:40 pm

    I think that Admiral Nakhimov will remain in the Northern Fleet after all, although they wrote earlier that it would be handed over to the Pacific Fleet after modernization. That ship will have much more strike power than first four frigates of the 22350 project.
    80 UKSK on Nakhimov vs 64 on four 22350 frigates.

    It would be nice to see Kuznetsov, Nakhimov, Ustinov, Gorshkov and Kasatonov + Golovko together at sea + twoo megalodons or Kazan and Arkhangelsk (which we will never see or know) below the sea surface.

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:06 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    A sub will need to have lots of courage to get close to any Orlan protected by an absolutely massive sonar, the ASW group, the Paket-NK and and the Otvet.

    It is a master move.

    Did I read that the sonar has so much power that it can be used as a weapon in its own right? Concussion being a very serious disabling problem, as the USAF found at al-Asad airbase.

    GarryB and TMA1 like this post

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:02 am

    JohninMK wrote:Did I read that the sonar has so much power that it can be used as a weapon in its own right? Concussion being a very serious disabling problem, as the USAF found at al-Asad airbase.

    Interesting, I have not read about that, but what I do know is that such vessels were designed to dominate the battle and that includes the ASW field. There was some expert US submariner talking about the sonar in Youtube sometime ago

    Podlodka77 wrote:I think that Admiral Nakhimov will remain in the Northern Fleet after all, although they wrote earlier that it would be handed over to the Pacific Fleet after modernization. That ship will have much more strike power than first four frigates of the 22350 project. 80 UKSK on Nakhimov vs 64 on four 22350 frigates.

    The strike power of a 22350 even in the old configuration is more than ok if you put Tsirkons on it. But where the Orlan are unmatched is as AD and ASW assets, not even considering that to sink them a leaker is probably not going to be enough. It is going to be simply difficult to believe the amount of heat they should be able to take once modernized, the hundreds and hundreds of stored AD kills on overlapped, multichannel weapons from longest range SAMs to CIWS and high rate of fire double gun mount would demand the combined attack from several CBGs to be overwhelmed, not even considering that any enemy fleet should stay more than 1000 km away, which is not a comfortable distance for the USN to operate at. I also see no reason why S-400 equivalent missiles cannot be carried onboard, enabling to extend the AD cover beyond 400 km. The radar horizon and power will be equally significantly longer than that of the 22350, magazine depth at another level, mobility on nuclear power too. US is going to miss their nuclear cruisers badly, once this thing returns modernized to the ocean.

    It would be nice to see Kuznetsov, Nakhimov, Ustinov, Gorshkov and Kasatonov + Golovko together at sea + twoo megalodons or Kazan and Arkhangelsk (which we will never see or know) below the sea surface.

    The good thing is that the Orlans will most likely be able to operate without the Kuznetsov and vice-versa, enabling the VMF to cover more conflict areas with the limited blue water resources they have, which is a pretty critical topic for them as of now. The Tsirkon as main enabler, together with the good production rate of the Yasens and the return "en masse" of the 949 and 971 in the next few years all point to a change of gear in the operational philosophy of the Russian navy for this decade, becoming much more active and maybe even working together with PLAN to dispute with USN their until now unrestricted dominance of high seas and therefore their ability to control a big part of the world's resource basis be it by gunboat diplomacy or by open acts of piracy vs. their rivals, which must be a major concern for China right now. Even despite their huge numbers of very capable DDG and SSGN, their weapons are so lame that they are quite vulnerable.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:38 am

    This ship is a beast, and can fight 2 or 3 CBG on it's own with Zircon crippling world navy.

    She would never operate on her own.


    One sub can destroy it if it is manned very well.

    She carries 3 helicopters and would be accompanied by her own quite capable subs too.

    The super hardware that fight ab entire army by itself doesn't exist.

    Something it was never intended for.

    You need numbers. 1 ships will never be enough.

    They are currently building ships and subs.


    Putting all their eggs on the Kirov is stupid.

    Correct, which is why they haven't.

    They need Gorshkovs in great numbers and upgrade other ships too. And that's what they are doing actually. They upgrade their oscar and udaloy and build a decent number of Gorshkov.

    They will likely build 24-36 Frigates and improved Frigates... plus about 24 destroyers and about 12 cruisers... but not this week.

    With a Varan carrier it would be perfect.

    Varan would be a useless expensive enormous step backwards... it would be a repeat of the Hermes Harrier debacle.

    Even the tight fisted UK DoD paid out for bigger carriers... but still screwed things up of course.

    Russians are building a "defensive" fleet with a lot of offensive capabilities.

    The shifting politics of the Russian/west relations means they are going to have to expand trade and their footprint to become global to bypass the west and avoid being contained and isolated... which means laying down destroyers and cruisers...

    Kirov would be detect when passing off Norway and tracking will start there.

    Then it's easy to keep an eye on it with AWACS and patrol aircraft.

    In modern days it's really easy to track big ships.

    Of course it is, but when you start trying to sink that ship then the problems start because those sea bed arrays can be nuked and those patrol aircraft and AWACS aircraft can be shot down... and tracking big ships normally involves them cooperating by having a transponder turned on.

    Even on twitter with commercial satelittes people track them. Now imagine how easy it is when you have 20 military satelittes up in the sky with much better caracteristics.

    He was talking about its fire power... not sure he expected it to be stealthy and invisible like US 100K ton aircraft carriers.

    Oh yes they will definitely know the whereabouts of the Nakhimov 24/7. Killing it will be quite another thing though - but obviously it won't be impossible.

    Another question of course is how many ships and aircraft and submarines and cities are you prepared to lose in trying to kill that ship?

    most of us will have to learn to live in 1900 style

    Suspect it would be worse than that... more like 900 AD... we will be losing more than just cell phone signals...

    It would be nice to see Kuznetsov, Nakhimov, Ustinov, Gorshkov and Kasatonov + Golovko together at sea + twoo megalodons or Kazan and Arkhangelsk (which we will never see or know) below the sea surface.

    I would think when the Kuznetsov is back in the water and ready to test they will want a quick short test to make sure everything works but then a nice decent trip to run her it... I would think Cuba and Venezuela and Brazil and South Africa and India and China would get a visit... and sailing past the UK would be neat too....

    Its mission is not to sink western ships, its mission is to ensure Russia access to world trade and to allay the fears of potential trade partners that signing some agreement with Russia wont lead to them being instantly regime changed by the US or some HATO combination.

    I also see no reason why S-400 equivalent missiles cannot be carried onboard, enabling to extend the AD cover beyond 400 km. The radar horizon and power will be equally significantly longer than that of the 22350, magazine depth at another level, mobility on nuclear power too. US is going to miss their nuclear cruisers badly, once this thing returns modernized to the ocean.

    Actually if you read their reports carefully they specifically said the S-550 will not go to sea and be a land only system... they did not say the same about the S-500 which means 600km range anti air capability and 7km/s target intercept performance... which is astounding. They won't carry a lot... perhaps four or 6 at most maybe... but the capability is impressive.

    I also hope they go with 152mm guns replacing the 130mm guns. The new 130mm gun is not bad but not designed for range or rate of fire... they have said the 152mm gun is for naval use and they have also said they are investing in 203mm ammo too... now they could improve the value of that latter investment if they put 152mm guns on their upgraded Orlans for fire support, and put the 152mm guns on their new 12K ton nuke powered destroyers and 203mm guns on their new build cruisers when they are ready.


    The good thing is that the Orlans will most likely be able to operate without the Kuznetsov and vice-versa, enabling the VMF to cover more conflict areas with the limited blue water resources they have, which is a pretty critical topic for them as of now.

    For many roles they compliment each other so would be stronger together than either could be individually, but often it is just a show the flag visit so one or the other would do, but anywhere there is tension then having them both means less chance of surprise and much less chance to overwhelm.

    USN their until now unrestricted dominance of high seas and therefore their ability to control a big part of the world's resource basis be it by gunboat diplomacy or by open acts of piracy vs. their rivals, which must be a major concern for China right now. Even despite their huge numbers of very capable DDG and SSGN, their weapons are so lame that they are quite vulnerable.

    The US isn't going to like it but at sea it will become obvious that they are no longer head and shoulders ahead of everyone else in charge dominator in control... and their being surpassed in economy terms is a first step to realising that they are not omnipotent... and honestly never really were.

    They are going to have to change their attitude from dictating and demanding to discussing and coming to agreements like adults sharing a planet.

    That is what this BS with Russia is about... maybe they will get it very quickly... I suspect they already understand and just want to play stupid because they think they have the numbers and fire power... but eventually they will realise this isn't about Russia and China taking their place and ruling the world the way they tried to like a selfish bully, but to actually just be a country with other countries that need to work together and live together on this planet. You don't have to cooperate with anyone, but treat everyone with respect and you will get respect... Americas problem is that the EU will realise they don't have to do what the US tells them any more and France and Germany might decide they don't want to carry all these little losers and lode stones any more so the EU might become made up of all the little weaker countries of Europe with the bigger countries going alone...

    The point is there will be no dominant super power trying to tell everyone what to do and dominating all international structures and organisations for their own benefit.

    UN meetings will need to be done in cyberspace so everyone stays at home and no one gets home advantage and every country would save enormous amounts of money just with that change... a lot less flight hours wasted etc etc.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually if you read their reports carefully they specifically said the S-550 will not go to sea and be a land only system... they did not say the same about the S-500 which means 600km range anti air capability and 7km/s target intercept performance... which is astounding. They won't carry a lot... perhaps four or 6 at most maybe... but the capability is impressive.

    As much as it would be great if they have S-500 onboard, I have yet seen no significant retrofit of the Fort wells with anything different/bigger, so my guess is they will keep them and maybe include longer range missiles from the S-400 system, which have the same size. Would already be enough to keep the USN E-2 at a distance close to the range limit of their radars and also beyond the launching range of Harpoon. AGM-158C LRASM and NSM may still be in range, it is not known for sure (claimed around 550 km)

    For many roles they compliment each other so would be stronger together than either could be individually, but often it is just a show the flag visit so one or the other would do, but anywhere there is tension then having them both means less chance of surprise and much less chance to overwhelm.

    I am all in favour of VMF developing the air power in the naval domain, but for the K to be really up to the task vs USN, there are some developments that are necessary. Air launched weapons for naval strike need to be upgraded very seriously, airspace control needs to be brought to another category, naval fighters need to be upgraded (specially the Su-33) and numbers carried onboard need to increase. So in the next few years the K is not going to be in a position to alter significantly the equation if 2 or 3 CBG are in the theater, the main factor will be the presence of Tsirkon imposting the USN certain rules of the game.

    The US isn't going to like it but at sea it will become obvious that they are no longer head and shoulders ahead of everyone else in charge dominator in control... and their being surpassed in economy terms is a first step to realising that they are not omnipotent... and honestly never really were.

    Until now they could use their numerical superiority and the lack of any rival fleet that could fight them and not be annihilated in the process. Now Russia has hypersonic weapons they cannot repel and force them to keep a distance and rely more on submarines than in a surface fleet, while China is growing their numbers at a breakneck speed. Another perfect pincer movement brought to US by their stupid foreign policy.

    They are going to have to change their attitude from dictating and demanding to discussing and coming to agreements like adults sharing a planet.

    I read some time ago that privileged people often prefer to risk it all than giving up their status. For exhibit A, see recent security talks with US and NATO. They are every bit as uncompromising, arrogant and deluded as ever.
    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:56 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    A sub will need to have lots of courage to get close to any Orlan protected by an absolutely massive sonar, the ASW group, the Paket-NK and and the Otvet.

    It is a master move.

    Did I read that the sonar has so much power that it can be used as a weapon in its own right? Concussion being a very serious disabling problem, as the USAF found at al-Asad airbase.

    Yup. Remember at a certain point the decibel levels on these active sonar creates effects similar to that of explosives. For the most powerful, if a hypothetical driver was beside an array pulsed at full power it would kill thrn. I've heard some crazy stories. Not sure what is true or old wives tales tho.

    Btw does anyone know the cutoff of when the decibel level is essentially that of the concussion wave from primary explosives?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:37 am

    As much as it would be great if they have S-500 onboard, I have yet seen no significant retrofit of the Fort wells with anything different/bigger, so my guess is they will keep them and maybe include longer range missiles from the S-400 system, which have the same size. Would already be enough to keep the USN E-2 at a distance close to the range limit of their radars and also beyond the launching range of Harpoon. AGM-158C LRASM and NSM may still be in range, it is not known for sure (claimed around 550 km)

    Because of their shape... which is basically a cone shape not really suitable for fitting small tubes, I would suspect they might make a separate launch system for their new larger ships... destroyers and cruisers... and I don't mean 8,000 ton enlarged Gorskov heavy frigates, I mean nuclear powered 12K ton plus destroyers and probably 18-20K ton new build cruisers.

    Their comments about future carrier designs mentions its defensive role providing defence for sub surface, sea surface, land surface, air and space based threats... which means anti sub, anti ship, land attack, anti air, and anti space/ballistic stuff... the latter could only be either S-500 or a naval Nudol... and I think S-500 is more likely.

    I think the comment about 96 S-400 suggests they will keep the existing Rif-M system and use new missiles, but I also think by the time they are putting Destroyers and Cruisers in the water a fixed array of vertical launch tubes launcher like Redut and UKSK will be developed to take S-400 and S-350 and 9M100 missiles and possibly also S-500 or they might go in dedicated launchers. I suspect the new launchers will take one S-400 or four S-350s or 16 9M100s per tube, and they will have enormous numbers of tubes to face swarm attacks and for operations over periods of months in peace time.

    I am all in favour of VMF developing the air power in the naval domain, but for the K to be really up to the task vs USN, there are some developments that are necessary. Air launched weapons for naval strike need to be upgraded very seriously, airspace control needs to be brought to another category, naval fighters need to be upgraded (specially the Su-33) and numbers carried onboard need to increase. So in the next few years the K is not going to be in a position to alter significantly the equation if 2 or 3 CBG are in the theater, the main factor will be the presence of Tsirkon imposting the USN certain rules of the game.

    Personally, I think with the quality and number of SAMs they will be operating on all of their ships the main contribution the Kuznetsov will make will be airborne 360 degree radar... whether than is just Ka-31s or drones or fighters or a mix of all three.... they are talking about a launch booster system that would assist aircraft getting airborne at higher weights... they can be creative and have a biplane AEW aircraft with fixed radar antenna in the leading and trailing edge of their wings for instance... there are lots of different options... even an amphibious AWACS aircraft that lands in the water alongside a ship for refuelling... who knows... some sort of hovercraft surface vessel that can operate at 100 knots that the plane could land on and be assisted in takeoffs with... who knows...

    Until now they could use their numerical superiority and the lack of any rival fleet that could fight them and not be annihilated in the process. Now Russia has hypersonic weapons they cannot repel and force them to keep a distance and rely more on submarines than in a surface fleet, while China is growing their numbers at a breakneck speed. Another perfect pincer movement brought to US by their stupid foreign policy.

    They created enemies from nothing... if they offered cooperation who knows where we would be now... bases on the Moon or Mars?

    I read some time ago that privileged people often prefer to risk it all than giving up their status. For exhibit A, see recent security talks with US and NATO. They are every bit as uncompromising, arrogant and deluded as ever.

    By not considering Russian security concerns and treating them with respect I am sure Russia is going to turn a cold shoulder to them and look to the rest of the world... most ties with the west will be cut or simply not used.

    Russia does not need this abuse and nor does it need to be dictated to, they will take measures to ensure their own security and then they will largely ignore the west and cut it off.

    Yup. Remember at a certain point the decibel levels on these active sonar creates effects similar to that of explosives. For the most powerful, if a hypothetical driver was beside an array pulsed at full power it would kill thrn. I've heard some crazy stories. Not sure what is true or old wives tales tho.

    Btw does anyone know the cutoff of when the decibel level is essentially that of the concussion wave from primary explosives?

    My understanding is that when they test this stuff any whales in the area tend to beach themselves, and so for that reason they don't like to talk about it in public, because while whale beaching seems to predate military use of sonar, it is certainly a cause of extra beachings too which are obviously preventable.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:19 am

    GarryB wrote:I would suspect they might make a separate launch system for their new larger ships... destroyers and cruisers... and I don't mean 8,000 ton enlarged Gorskov heavy frigates, I mean nuclear powered 12K ton plus destroyers and probably 18-20K ton new build cruisers.

    Orlans are and probably will be for a long time their biggest combatants, there would be plenty of space within them for such missiles, if they would adapt the Fort system. Maybe they are not thinking about suing their navy for strategic ABM roles, unlike USN.
    As to the vessels you mention, I only know the 22350M, which would be considered a destroyer in the West, and the Lider which would be a cruiser and for which two possible designs (conventional propulsion ca. 12kT or nuclear ca. 18kT) had been proposed.

    Their comments about future carrier designs mentions its defensive role providing defence for sub surface, sea surface, land surface, air and space based threats... which means anti sub, anti ship, land attack, anti air, and anti space/ballistic stuff... the latter could only be either S-500 or a naval Nudol... and I think S-500 is more likely.

    Don't remember those remarks about space defence

    I think the comment about 96 S-400 suggests they will keep the existing Rif-M system and use new missiles, but I also think by the time they are putting Destroyers and Cruisers in the water a fixed array of vertical launch tubes launcher like Redut and UKSK will be developed to take S-400 and S-350 and 9M100 missiles and possibly also S-500 or they might go in dedicated launchers. I suspect the new launchers will take one S-400 or four S-350s or 16 9M100s per tube, and they will have enormous numbers of tubes to face swarm attacks and for operations over periods of months in peace time.

    Yes, indeed it seems they will keep the Fort M (is it what you mean by Rif?) The issue with placing 9M100 in a VLS meant for the Fort missiles is that it does not use up the depth of the system. Short range missiles can be place in other places of the ship, the big VLS should use the 9M96 at least. The capability vs. swarms is given by the several CIWS, gun mounts and short range missiles operating in parallel with a very serious firepower, though I don't exactly know the details about the fire control and how many targets can they attack simultaneously. The double 130 mm gun with guided rounds should be extremely effective against dense attacks of relatively light targets, even at a serious distance.

    Personally, I think with the quality and number of SAMs they will be operating on all of their ships the main contribution the Kuznetsov will make will be airborne 360 degree radar... whether than is just Ka-31s or drones or fighters or a mix of all three.... they are talking about a launch booster system that would assist aircraft getting airborne at higher weights... they can be creative and have a biplane AEW aircraft with fixed radar antenna in the leading and trailing edge of their wings for instance... there are lots of different options... even an amphibious AWACS aircraft that lands in the water alongside a ship for refuelling... who knows...  some sort of hovercraft surface vessel that can operate at 100 knots that the plane could land on and be assisted in takeoffs with... who knows...

    That is the issue, by now they just have makeshift solutions for that problem. It is not that you cannot use the Ka-31 close to the carrier or integrate the radar picture of airborne fighters, but it is still not a really effective way to have a 24/7, 360 deg radar picture at a safe distance from the fleet. In a confrontation vs. USN, the later would have a serious advantage in that regard. The Flanker platform is superior to anything the USN has, but it is technically not anymore up to date, not numerous on board the K and lacks the decisive stand-off weapons needed to attack the CBG(s) without having to face a much more numerous, more modern and better coordinated air wing. VMF will find a solution, no question, but projecting power was not yet high enough in the list of priorities and therefore it does not even seem that they have a defined plan to address most of those topics. That should happen within this decade from what we know.

    By not considering Russian security concerns and treating them with respect I am sure Russia is going to turn a cold shoulder to them and look to the rest of the world... most ties with the west will be cut or simply not used.

    Russia does not need this abuse and nor does it need to be dictated to, they will take measures to ensure their own security and then they will largely ignore the west and cut it off.

    I expect them not only to ignore the West, but to actually "contain" them, using one the US' favourite euphemisms for screwing other countries over. The West will try to isolate the multipolar world and use financial might (or rather privilege) and their ability to project soft and hard power to start a new colonial era and secure a resource basis that needs to be bigger than that of China and Russia. The later will make sure US is kicked out of most of Asia, (but for that Westernmost peninsula called Europe), and will dispute Africa (see recent protests and Wagner involvement in Mali) and South America, as well as make sure the commonwealth does not enjoy unimpeded maritime communications and can use its outposts to spread influence (here the reason for the AUKUS deals) without opposition. Technically bankrupt and without the possibility to loot the global South to sustain them, the West would indeed not find it amusing to face Russian and Chines confrontation at every turn, but this is what they have been calling for and that is what they will get. They will not be allowed to get off the hook.

    My understanding is that when they test this stuff any whales in the area tend to beach themselves, and so for that reason they don't like to talk about it in public, because while whale beaching seems to predate military use of sonar, it is certainly a cause of extra beachings too which are obviously preventable.

    I guess it should be possible to warn the animals of the presence of such vessels so that they can move away, before leaving them deaf using the sonar at full power without previous notice...
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:19 am

    Orlans are and probably will be for a long time their biggest combatants, there would be plenty of space within them for such missiles, if they would adapt the Fort system. Maybe they are not thinking about suing their navy for strategic ABM roles, unlike USN.

    First of all I agree though obviously the Kuznetsov and the new helicopter carriers, and of course any new CVNs would be bigger I agree and don't think they will build new cruisers that are bigger than the Orlans... it was the size it was to carry the sized missiles it carried... not just Granit, but also Metel in a reloadable system and of course the original Rif launcher is relatively big and clumsy despite being the first deployment of vertically launched missiles on a ship.

    I suspect the work with the UKSK-M and possibly an all new Redut missile system that takes the 250km and 400km S-400 missiles might radically change things.

    The whole point of a multi missile launcher is that you can replace dedicated launchers with multi use launchers... take the Udaloy upgrades... they replaced two launchers with 8 launch tubes that could only launch one type of missile, with first four and then six launchers... two and four of which can only launch Uran type missiles, but two other universal launchers that turn the ship into a much more flexible multirole ship.

    Their core problem is that if the multi missile system only offer on missile per tube then the loadout becomes less interesting... given the choice between a 9M96 missile or a 400km range S-400 missile, the extra range might be useful, but if the choice is one 400km range missile per tube or four missiles of 60km or 150km range then choosing the smaller missile gives you advantages.... and of course having 80 UKSK tubes does not mean 80 Zircons will be carried... they will always mix the loadout for flexibility.

    But the interesting point is that when they have a universal missile launch tube that can carry one Zircon or perhaps one S-500 missile... or it can be stacked with multiple layers of multiple missiles with say 24 9M100 missiles, or maybe 8 9M96 missiles of the 60km range variety, then it starts to make sense to replace the smaller existing SAM launcher that can only fit 4 missiles of the 9M96 type.

    This means for say an Orlan upgrade instead of replacing the 20 Granit tubes with 80 UKSK launchers and the 96 missiles of the Rif-M system with 96 missiles of the S-400 250km and 400km range type, and the Metel reloadable launch system at the front of the ship with say a Redut launcher for 32 or 36 missile tubes... they could just replace the whole front section with say 240 UKSK tubes.... so the 10 UKSK launchers and the Rif launchers and the Metel launcher could be replaced with say 30 UKSK launchers... and that is just the front section.

    The size of the Orlan is quite big because it was made in the late 1980s... if you imagine the level of electronics at the time we are talking about probably a high rise building worth of main frame computers... and it is not just that... the improvement in electronics is also effecting the sensors too so the huge old radar and EW equipment replaced with modern much more capable systems that are multi use and fully networked so instead of ten different radars scanning for each system, you could have one sophisticated system collecting information and sharing it amongst the systems...

    There would be lots of places on board a ship that size where a dedicated mount for some S-500s could be placed... they don't need dozens... half to one dozen should be plenty.

    As to the vessels you mention, I only know the 22350M, which would be considered a destroyer in the West, and the Lider which would be a cruiser and for which two possible designs (conventional propulsion ca. 12kT or nuclear ca. 18kT) had been proposed.

    I think the 22350M is just an improved Frigate... at best a heavy Frigate... essentially an upgrade based on the limited experience with the original... that is intended to be the standard production model.

    Their new destroyers are likely to be nuclear powered and as such will likely be more than 10K tons each... and the power available I would expect them to take advantage and make them 12K or so... I think they will probably make 24 odd ships but probably over a period of the next 40-50 years.

    With the cruisers, I really don't think they will be as big as the Orlans are now, because improvement in weapons and equipment and systems mean that a from scratch design they don't have to be that big.

    Think of it in terms of the Su-57... it is not much bigger than a Mig-29/35 but its performance is Flanker level...

    Don't remember those remarks about space defence

    They have updated and upgraded their land based air defence to protect Russia from long range ballistic weapons and gliders... which will likely form the basis of their defence from hypersonic manouvering threats... it includes missiles but also high power lasers... do you think they will neglect their navy? Their access to world trade and foreign markets... maybe the US Navy will play nice and let them trade with anyone they please... ????

    Yes, indeed it seems they will keep the Fort M (is it what you mean by Rif?)

    That is what they call the naval S-300F and improved models. The first Orlans had Rif... with 90km range missiles and that was later replaced by Rif-M with 150km range missiles in later ships AFAIK.

    A few other things changed too like the two 100mm gun mounts of the first ship was replaced with the twin 130mm mounts in later ships and a few other changes...

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/rif-m/

    The issue with placing 9M100 in a VLS meant for the Fort missiles is that it does not use up the depth of the system. Short range missiles can be place in other places of the ship, the big VLS should use the 9M96 at least.

    From the description it sounds like the Granit tubes are being replaced by UKSK launchers, the Rif system is being kept and presumably modified to take new 250km and 400km range new S-400 missiles of the same number.... 96 missiles replacing 96 missiles, but it sounds like Redut is being mounted where the Metel system was fitted and the RBU-6000 in front of that is being kept, so the Redut system can take smaller shorter ranged missiles to backup and support the Rif-M with the long range missiles.

    On a brand new ship I would expect a new model Redut that could take the bigger missiles would replace both systems but they clearly are not ready with such a new system... it is like a Sovremmeny upgrade that keeps the Shtil arm launcher but uses new missiles... you don't benefit from being able to launch rapidly, but you do get the range and performance improvements of the new missiles.

    This suggests this is a cheaper upgrade... if they are working on new systems for heavier new build ships then perhaps the next upgrade they could test them with that upgrade... in the mean time this will get into the water and increase the air defence range of the Russian Navy significantly.

    The capability vs. swarms is given by the several CIWS, gun mounts and short range missiles operating in parallel with a very serious firepower, though I don't exactly know the details about the fire control and how many targets can they attack simultaneously. The double 130 mm gun with guided rounds should be extremely effective against dense attacks of relatively light targets, even at a serious distance.

    I suspect a few SAMs with nuclear warheads could also be a simple solution to a swarm attack.... assuming it only destroys drones I would expect that could be considered an acceptable use for tactical nuclear weapons.

    It is not that you cannot use the Ka-31 close to the carrier or integrate the radar picture of airborne fighters, but it is still not a really effective way to have a 24/7, 360 deg radar picture at a safe distance from the fleet.

    Being an air defence carrier I think having Ka-31s is a little limiting but not the worst thing in the world... they are not thinking of invasions deep into enemy airspace with manned aircraft so having a clear picture of the airspace down to sea level including surface targets 250km around perhaps two or three helicopters operating perhaps 20-50km away from your carrier should be pretty good and much better than having none.

    There are a range of belly pods being developed for the Su-34 that include EW and recon including ground mapping side looking radar equipment... how hard would it be to develop a 360 degree belly mounted radar system for an Su-33 or MiG-29K that could fly around the place when tensions are high... it could carry its own air to air weapons and be able to look after itself.

    The talk of assisted takeoff systems being added during the upgrade are intriguing too... what would need such assistance?

    I mean a Flanker with full fuel an a full weapon payload would benefit from assistance, but perhaps they have a new plane that needs assistance to get airborne... we have recently seen a jet powered Chinese design... is it impossible they might have developed something for themselves?

    In a confrontation vs. USN, the later would have a serious advantage in that regard.

    I don't agree... I think Russian aircraft operating within a Russian surface based IADS are well protected and likely have quite a few information gathering options to allow them to have rather good situational awareness... if there is conflict it wont be Su-33s bombing US carriers... Zircons can get their target information from space or subs or other platforms.

    The Flanker platform is superior to anything the USN has, but it is technically not anymore up to date, not numerous on board the K and lacks the decisive stand-off weapons needed to attack the CBG(s) without having to face a much more numerous, more modern and better coordinated air wing.

    I would think a surface launched Zircon has a better tactical radius than an F-35, and I think the Kuznetsov will not be operating alone anyway.

    There is enormous future scope for upgrades to Su-33s and MiG-29Ks (to Su-35 level and MIG-35 level respectively... but also their twin engined stealthy lighter carrier fighter that MiG are showing models of suggests further upgrades likely too... not to mention a whole new range of specialist aircraft weapons designed for internal carriage by stealthy fighters and also bombers...)

    Russian carrier groups are about assuring access to SLOC and ports... I can't see the US Navy ramming anyone or opening fire on targets carrying S-400 and Zircon type weapons... unless given no other choice.

    VMF will find a solution, no question, but projecting power was not yet high enough in the list of priorities and therefore it does not even seem that they have a defined plan to address most of those topics. That should happen within this decade from what we know.

    The coming rejection of Russia as a peer power will lead to a turn away from the west and focus will shift to naval interests and power projection... I doubt the Army and Air Force will suffer... for instance Sukhoi will still be making new planes, but more money for a naval Su-57 might suddenly appear just as an example.

    Ship production rates should start to take off now the prototypes and testing are mostly done and it just remains to make the new light ships... serial production is much easier than problem solving new ship designs.

    I expect them not only to ignore the West, but to actually "contain" them, using one the US' favourite euphemisms for screwing other countries over.

    I don't see them trying to actively harm the west, but equally it wont do anything to help unless it benefits from the process.

    The West will try to isolate the multipolar world and use financial might (or rather privilege) and their ability to project soft and hard power to start a new colonial era and secure a resource basis that needs to be bigger than that of China and Russia.

    I think that will be a huge bonus... every time they try to use their power with US dollars or international orgs they control they essentially weaken and undermine those powers and risk losing them.

    The west getting all colonial is a good set of reasons for most of the victims of colonialism to look for something new and different.

    In desperation the west might even start being nice to its third world victims hoping to create new powerful allies... essentially like they did with Germany and Japan... they went from enemy to ally very quickly because it was useful for that to happen.

    During the cold war the west was able to get over its BS regarding communist countries to be able to use better relations withcommunist China against the perceived bigger threat of communist Soviet Union... but being logical... if the Soviets were the bigger threat then why not decide to have better relations with them and the problems are solved. Rolling Eyes

    I guess it should be possible to warn the animals of the presence of such vessels so that they can move away, before leaving them deaf using the sonar at full power without previous notice...

    Water is a funny thing... it does not compress. When you see in movies some diver or some person underwater getting shot at and the bullets going through the water all around them... in actual fact the easiest way to deal with any human under the water is a hand grenade. The fragments are useless so an attack grenade instead of a defense grenade should be used, but their effect is brutal.

    A hand grenade effectively sends shockwaves through the water... it travels fast and when it reaches a human... who is mostly water, the effects are quite lethal because the air pockets we like to call lungs collapse and you die.

    Famously using dynamite to go fishing has the same effect, but with fish they have ballast sacks they store gas in to change their buoyancy... the shock wave from an underwater explosion stuns them and they float to the surface.

    A sonar powerful enough to actually create cavitation have been reportedly used to set of incoming torpedoes... the effect on any living thing in the water would be catastrophic.

    The speed sound moves through water is four times faster than in air... so we are talking about roughly 1.2km/s which is rather fast to swim away from... if you started out with low power pulses and gradually increased them over time I suspect most marine life that could move probably would but giving away your position like that would make the whole concept redundant anyway.

    I think the core principle is no open discussions to prevent the save the whales lunatics from finding out... of course such things are very damaging to ocean life there obviously wont be any independent studies on the effects, and humans rely a lot on the ocean despite treating it as a toilet... a lot of CO2 is removed from the atmosphere by creatures in the oceans.

    Not something we should be mucking around with.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:28 am

    JohninMK wrote:

    Did I read that the sonar has so much power that it can be used as a weapon in its own right? Concussion being a very serious disabling problem, as the USAF found at al-Asad airbase.

    Those guys were just faking the concussion. They get to leave that shithole and get paid 45K a year disability for their rest of their lives. Its winning the redneck lottery.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:18 am

    I think any capital ship is vulnerable to air power, missile swarms and sub launched missiles. I assume when this ship is moving in open water it will be escorted by a nuclear sub or 2 and destroyers. I assume it will also have drone capability.
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    Post  LMFS Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:22 am

    GarryB wrote:But the interesting point is that when they have a universal missile launch tube that can carry one Zircon or perhaps one S-500 missile... or it can be stacked with multiple layers of multiple missiles with say 24 9M100 missiles, or maybe 8 9M96 missiles of the 60km range variety, then it starts to make sense to replace the smaller existing SAM launcher that can only fit 4 missiles of the 9M96 type.

    If they manage to stack missiles it may work, I just follow the lowest risk bet in this case.

    There would be lots of places on board a ship that size where a dedicated mount for some S-500s could be placed... they don't need dozens... half to one dozen should be plenty.

    The ship should be delivered this year, there is no time for more structural work.

    I think the 22350M is just an improved Frigate... at best a heavy Frigate... essentially an upgrade based on the limited experience with the original... that is intended to be the standard production model.

    The 22350M seems to be what a destroyer in Western terms represents, a large, very well armed combatant capable for long range deployments in the far oceanic zone. The 22350 is an outstanding frigate design, but it lacks endurance and magazine capacity, among many other features. To use the basic layout and bring it to the displacement of a destroyer makes sense, the same way Arleigh Burkes are the backbone of the USN.

    Their new destroyers are likely to be nuclear powered and as such will likely be more than 10K tons each... and the power available I would expect them to take advantage and make them 12K or so... I think they will probably make 24 odd ships but probably over a period of the next 40-50 years.

    What they referred as destroyers would be a cruiser in Western terms, a capital ship, even more so with the NPP. Replacement for the 1164 and probably 1144 too, in the long run. I agree the improvement in the systems and weapons should allow them to make these vessels smaller than the Orlans

    They have updated and upgraded their land based air defence to protect Russia from long range ballistic weapons and gliders... which will likely form the basis of their defence from hypersonic manouvering threats... it includes missiles but also high power lasers... do you think they will neglect their navy? Their access to world trade and foreign markets... maybe the US Navy will play nice and let them trade with anyone they please...  ????

    I ma sure they will devise some solution to protect their vessels vs. eventual US hypersonic weapons, I just don't know very well how it will look like, there is little information about that.

    That is what they call the naval S-300F and improved models.

    Rif is the export model, Fort the domestic one.

    From the description it sounds like the Granit tubes are being replaced by UKSK launchers,

    Not the description, there are actual pictures of the VLS cells being retrofitted

    the Rif system is being kept and presumably modified to take new 250km and 400km range new S-400 missiles of the same number.... 96 missiles replacing 96 missiles, but it sounds like Redut is being mounted where the Metel system was fitted and the RBU-6000 in front of that is being kept, so the Redut system can take smaller shorter ranged missiles to backup and support the Rif-M with the long range missiles.

    It is not confirmed that 40N6 will be adopted. The Redut seems to be placed instead of the Kinzhal, it should be capable for medium-long and short range missiles in quad pack, plus the Kortik should make way for 6x Pantsir which also pack many dozens of missiles. The gun seems also new.

    This suggests this is a cheaper upgrade... if they are working on new systems for heavier new build ships then perhaps the next upgrade they could test them with that upgrade... in the mean time this will get into the water and increase the air defence range of the Russian Navy significantly.

    Modernization only makes sense if it is relatively quick and low risk, they need main combatants that can deter aggression by its sole presence and a modernized Nakhimov should be more than enough for that.

    Being an air defence carrier I think having Ka-31s is a little limiting but not the worst thing in the world... they are not thinking of invasions deep into enemy airspace with manned aircraft so having a clear picture of the airspace down to sea level including surface targets 250km around perhaps two or three helicopters operating perhaps 20-50km away from your carrier should be pretty good and much better than having none.

    Not enough IMHO. The longer you see, the better you can plan and defend yourself, specially vs. more numerous rivals. This is a clear handicap in my view.

    There are a range of belly pods being developed for the Su-34 that include EW and recon including ground mapping side looking radar equipment... how hard would it be to develop a 360 degree belly mounted radar system for an Su-33 or MiG-29K that could fly around the place when tensions are high... it could carry its own air to air weapons and be able to look after itself.

    Yes, I know, and I have proposed such solutions myself too, as a stopgap measure. Compared with what a plane like Helios RLD could do, it is simply very basic. Endurance of fighters is not appropriate for such tasks, though obviously any CAP will be duly used for that purpose with the known joint battlespace management system they are developing for the VMF.

    The talk of assisted takeoff systems being added during the upgrade are intriguing too... what would need such assistance?

    I just read that once and looked a bit sensationalistic to me, so I am not holding my breath. But of course an AWACS is the obvious plane that would need that, maybe an UAV in that or other functions too. Fighters would also be helped for some missions, but I would rather upgrade the Su-33 to AL-41F-1S level.

    I don't agree... I think Russian aircraft operating within a Russian surface based IADS are well protected and likely have quite a few information gathering options to allow them to have rather good situational awareness... if there is conflict it wont be Su-33s bombing US carriers... Zircons can get their target information from space or subs or other platforms.

    USN will never come in Tsirkon range or they are toast. They have reactivated very recently the anti ship function of the TLAM, in my opinion to have some ability to attack in stand-off range, even when with little effectiveness. The other obvious solution is to launch waves of fighters armed with AShM to degrade the defences of the VMF. This is their best bet now, if armed with decent supersonic missiles they could be very dangerous. VMF could maybe use the hypersonic weapons we know are in development for the Su-57, though an air launched Tsirkon would be the ideal solution to keep USN always under threat, no matter how far they try to stay and use their air power against the Russian fleet.

    I would think a surface launched Zircon has a better tactical radius than an F-35.

    It doesn't, if you consider the 500 km range of the AShMs the F-35 may carry and the air refuelling USN is reinforcing right now with the MQ-25. Air power is mobile and flexible where surface fleets are not so much.

    I don't see them trying to actively harm the west, but equally it wont do anything to help unless it benefits from the process.

    They cannot avoid participating in a fight for resource base in order to avoid the West from isolating and suffocating them, it is nothing personal but pure survival. They cannot allow US to assert their dominance of the developing countries.

    The west getting all colonial is a good set of reasons for most of the victims of colonialism to look for something new and different.

    Sure, if Russia and China have the financial and military might and the power projection abilities needed to ensure their security. This mandates having a first level blue water navy.


    The speed sound moves through water is four times faster than in air... so we are talking about roughly 1.2km/s which is rather fast to swim away from... if you started out with low power pulses and gradually increased them over time I suspect most marine life that could move probably would but giving away your position like that would make the whole concept redundant anyway.

    Such a fleet needs to have their sonars on all the time, they would not give themselves away more than they would normally do. Probably most animals already know how to take care of themselves, unless caught by surprise by very abnormal activity.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:56 am

    LMFS wrote:USN will never come in Tsirkon range or they are toast. They have reactivated very recently the anti ship function of the TLAM, in my opinion to have some ability to attack in stand-off range, even when with little effectiveness. The other obvious solution is to launch waves of fighters armed with AShM to degrade the defences of the VMF. This is their best bet now, if armed with decent supersonic missiles they could be very dangerous. VMF could maybe use the hypersonic weapons we know are in development for the Su-57, though an air launched Tsirkon would be the ideal solution to keep USN always under threat, no matter how far they try to stay and use their air power against the Russian fleet.

    Now that the IMF agreement is toast I expect that Russia will be working on their equivalents of the Chinese DF-21/26 using Iskander & Khinzal-related technologies, or even ground launched versions of Zircons with rocket-based cruise stage. Such MRBMs/IRBMs can permit Russia to target and attack Murkan flat-tops no matter where they try to position themselves, and before the Murkans can get a shot away.

    No matter the nonsense that comes from the Murkans, in this day and age of high performance rocketry, air-breathing scram-jets, hypersonic maneuvering vehicles, AI embedded in miniaturized milspec flight computers, advanced heat resistant materials, 24/7 satellite ocean surveillance, etc etc the idea that a 100kT flat top can be adequately defended from a 1st tier enemy Power is just not feasible.  US assets will become liabilities and their power projection capabilities against peer adversaries will wither on the vine. Too expensive too lose, too much risk to deploy, and can't threaten nuclear retaliation when the opponent is another nuclear Power.

    censored 'em.  Karma is a real bitch.  Razz

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    Post  Arrow Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:18 am

    Zircons with rocket-based cruise stage.  wrote:


    This is a very interesting concept. For example, the first stage is from Iskander and the second is Cirkon. We have a maneuvering missile with a range of over 2000km. You can give a higher stage and get an IRBM with a final Cirkon stage Laughing

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    Post  LMFS Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:34 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Now that the IMF agreement is toast I expect that Russia will be working on their equivalents of the Chinese DF-21/26 using Iskander & Khinzal-related technologies, or even ground launched versions of Zircons with rocket-based cruise stage. Such MRBMs/IRBMs can permit Russia to target and attack Murkan flat-tops no matter where they try to position themselves, and before the Murkans can get a shot away.

    That is a possibility, but it is not even necessary, because they have much better and more flexible air launched weapons like Kinzhal that can deploy anywhere in the country in a matter of hours and strike 2000+ km into the sea, keeping any fleet so far from Russia that they could do absolutely nothing offensive.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:40 am


    The ship should be delivered this year, there is no time for more structural work.

    They have said this was a low cost fairly simple upgrade, which means it is not an expensive, deep, wide ranging upgrade and improvement.

    This makes sense... they don't need a lot of problems to have to be fixing... getting this thing back in the water... test the new wiring and piping etc, and the important stuff can be deployed world wide in support of the upgraded Kuznetsov while it is being tested too.

    The next upgrade for an Orlan class ship could possibly include replacement of the combined propulsion system with a compact nuclear reactor intended for new destroyers/cruisers, plus a new, more universal missile (ie probably not totally universal yet but getting close), and a 152mm or even 203mm test gun mount for destroyers and cruisers respectively... and possibly an S-500 mount... but personally I would rather see the old Rif system upgraded to a fixed cell array launcher like Redut... it should be simpler and cheaper and vastly more space efficient... and allow rather more missiles to be carried too.

    The 22350M seems to be what a destroyer in Western terms represents, a large, very well armed combatant capable for long range deployments in the far oceanic zone.

    The same could be said of their new Corvettes though, so one would expect their Frigates to set the bar a little higher.

    A good indicator will be production, though not definitive... it is possible they wanted an improved heavier design that was more capable to become the new standard design, or they might want two sizes of frigate... a small size for Med and Baltic basing and a bigger size better resistant to ice and better endurance for Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet use.

    In the case of the former they would continue with the smaller frigates already laid down but lay down no more, and in the case of the latter the production of the smaller original design will continue till they have enough for each of the fleets needs.

    Of course it might also be an economic thing... the smaller vessel might continue production because it is cheaper and it can be the numbers Frigate... again for the Med and Baltic Seas.

    I got the feeling from what I had read that they had two designs for destroyers... one one would conventional and one would be nuclear powered, so they might make some of each and then decide like they did with the Orlan and Alant class (Slava).

    The Navy seemed to prefer nuclear powered destroyers but unlike the US Navy fleet they only had the Orlans as nuclear powered armed combatant surfaces ships AFAIK.

    The 22350 is an outstanding frigate design, but it lacks endurance and magazine capacity, among many other features. To use the basic layout and bring it to the displacement of a destroyer makes sense, the same way Arleigh Burkes are the backbone of the USN.

    I agree it would be a safe option, but did they think it needed more fire power for long endurance voyages or to defend Russian waters against promised swarm attacks?

    What they referred as destroyers would be a cruiser in Western terms, a capital ship, even more so with the NPP.

    Perhaps a good reason to stop using western terms and start looking at their terms and type descriptions?

    One of my pet peeves all these years of the cold war was reading books about Soviet stuff only to find 1 third of the content would be photos and diagrams and descriptions of the western equivalent instead of the system the book was supposed to be about. Conversely the book about the western equivalent hardly even mentioned its Soviet equivalent... except in passing to acknowledge it existed occasionally.

    I ma sure they will devise some solution to protect their vessels vs. eventual US hypersonic weapons, I just don't know very well how it will look like, there is little information about that.

    They have a proven history of taking air defence seriously and they are the only ones with manouvering hypersonic weapons for testing and practise.

    It is not confirmed that 40N6 will be adopted.

    It should be compatible. It is like saying they have adopted a new SVD rifle but we are not sure if it can fire the API round in 7.62x54Rmm.

    It is an area defence cruiser... why would they not adopt the long range missiles... it is designed to fit the same sized tubes.

    Modernization only makes sense if it is relatively quick and low risk, they need main combatants that can deter aggression by its sole presence and a modernized Nakhimov should be more than enough for that.

    Not necessarily. They might decide they have the other Orlan class ship and a few Atlant class ships for world wide operational testing with the Kuznetsov... they could instead of performed a much deeper more expensive and extensive upgrade... there are likely a few new things they might have ready for testing... new AESA arrays and sonar sets etc etc... new propulsion arrangements etc.


    Not enough IMHO. The longer you see, the better you can plan and defend yourself, specially vs. more numerous rivals. This is a clear handicap in my view.

    Of course it is, which is why iI keep suggesting airships for AWACS but it is a bit radical.

    Yes, I know, and I have proposed such solutions myself too, as a stopgap measure.

    I would be more ambitious than that... it could be a useful solution that could be widely adopted on land as well... they experimented for some time with Su-30s as sort of mini AWACS platforms to operate with a group of smaller and lighter fighters... primarily focused around the large radar in the nose of that aircraft but a belly mounted pod that expanded the field of view and perhaps added different capabilities would be interesting.

    I just read that once and looked a bit sensationalistic to me, so I am not holding my breath. But of course an AWACS is the obvious plane that would need that, maybe an UAV in that or other functions too. Fighters would also be helped for some missions, but I would rather upgrade the Su-33 to AL-41F-1S level.

    I agree, the language was not well translated so it was vague, and there does not seem to be plans for the Su-33 to be used for heavy strike roles so assisted takeoff sounds a bit redundant if it was only for that.


    USN will never come in Tsirkon range or they are toast.

    Which... if true, means a Russian surface action group should be able to chase US mighty carrier battle groups around the ocean around the world... all the ships and likely subs operating with a Russian surface group would have the potential to carry Zircons... especially the subs whose presence would be indicated by surface ships...

    They have reactivated very recently the anti ship function of the TLAM, in my opinion to have some ability to attack in stand-off range, even when with little effectiveness.

    Good. Totally pointless, and taking up launch tubes that could be better filled... with SAMs for instance.

    The other obvious solution is to launch waves of fighters armed with AShM to degrade the defences of the VMF. This is their best bet now, if armed with decent supersonic missiles they could be very dangerous.

    Giving them inferior anti ship missile capability to what Russia has now, with Russian air defence being rather better than theirs, I think very dangerous is a stretch...

    I realise their current air defence capability a sea is rather incomplete, but so is Americas supersonic anti ship capacity.

    Their best supersonic anti ship missile is the MA-31 target version of the Kh-31 they were buying in the 1990s.


    It doesn't, if you consider the 500 km range of the AShMs the F-35 may carry and the air refuelling USN is reinforcing right now with the MQ-25. Air power is mobile and flexible where surface fleets are not so much.

    Zircon is new and is a first generation scramjet powered weapon... with further work they might develop a version with super efficient subsonic cruise to start its flight followed by a climb to high altitude and acceleration to hypersonic speeds for the last 1,000km of the attack...

    They cannot allow US to assert their dominance of the developing countries.

    They have been, and I really can't see Russia pushing the US away from third world regions where they are fully entrenched... like the EU. Twisted Evil

    In some countries the people in power are addicted to US bribes and when they don't get the same from Russia they will be very keen to demonise new trade relations with them, despite the damage the perverted relationship their country has with the US is doing.

    Russia can't trade with absolutely everyone right away...

    Sure, if Russia and China have the financial and military might and the power projection abilities needed to ensure their security. This mandates having a first level blue water navy.

    Well sort of... these countries have to take on some responsibility... this isn't a shift from one protection racket to another...

    Boosting trade relations with half the planet will make US sanctions self defeating because they will end up isolating themselves, so they can either fight (ie bomb and shoot) or fight (work harder and live up to the ideals they hold everyone else too to get back their appeal).

    Obviously shooting people is easier... which is why Russia needs to build new ships and might sell a few new Frigate and sub designs in the process.


    Such a fleet needs to have their sonars on all the time, they would not give themselves away more than they would normally do. Probably most animals already know how to take care of themselves, unless caught by surprise by very abnormal activity.

    You have very high confidence in animals... do they get warnings about naval exercises... I would think every active sonar ping would catch them by surprise and be rather confusing because it would be rather unnatural.

    A bit like birds still haven't gotten the hang of jet engines at air ports...

    US assets will become liabilities and their power projection capabilities against peer adversaries will wither on the vine. Too expensive too lose, too much risk to deploy, and can't threaten nuclear retaliation when the opponent is another nuclear Power.

    Fortunately they don't make mistakes and so they wont backtrack.

    Also fortunate that their Navy is designed for peace time to control the rest of the world rather than peer enemies...

    But very good point about the INF treaty... previously the idea of making such a missile would have the Americans squealing like stuck pigs, but being able to make land and sea versions is very interesting because it reduces costs and can be made multimission too.

    A separate launcher for big multistage missiles for cruisers would be interesting for carrying rather longer range anti ship missiles but also air defence missiles to defend from the enemy equivalent... ie Iskander II and S-500...

    They could develop a conventional IRBM missiles for Borei class subs to carry and make a few extra to be fitted with 3,000km range anti ship ballistic manouvering warheads for anti carrier use that could operate with their carrier groups. They could make an all rocket model of the missile for anti sat use too.
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    Post  LMFS Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:31 am

    Evolution cruiser: "Admiral Nakhimov" is preparing to return to service

    For one of the most powerful strike ships in the world began to train the crew

    https://iz.ru/1288006/aleksei-ramm-roman-kretcul-bogdan-stepovoi/kreiser-evoliutcii-admiral-nakhimov-gotovitsia-vernutsia-v-stroi

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    Post  franco Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:25 am

    According to reports, the cruiser will have 80 UKKS cells, 92 (probably) S-300FM air defense silos and 20 533-mm torpedoes or Vodopad PLUR, i.e. TARKR ammunition load will be 192 cruise and anti-ship missiles, missiles and missiles.


    FULL ARTICLE: https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/192052-istochnik-soobschil-o-nachale-formirovanija-jekipazha-dlja-tarkr-admiral-nahimov.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:39 am

    franco wrote:According to reports, the cruiser will have 80 UKKS cells, 92 (probably) S-300FM air defense silos and 20 533-mm torpedoes or Vodopad PLUR, i.e. TARKR ammunition load will be 192 cruise and anti-ship missiles, missiles and missiles.


    FULL ARTICLE: https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/192052-istochnik-soobschil-o-nachale-formirovanija-jekipazha-dlja-tarkr-admiral-nahimov.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

    S-300FM? Why not the naval version of the S-400 the Poliment Redut?
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    Post  Hole Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:21 pm

    Poliment Redut has nothing to do with S-400. It´s the naval version of the S-350. Or the other way around.

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    Post  Hole Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:24 pm

    franco wrote:According to reports, the cruiser will have 80 UKKS cells, 92 (probably) S-300FM air defense silos and 20 533-mm torpedoes or Vodopad PLUR, i.e. TARKR ammunition load will be 192 cruise and anti-ship missiles, missiles and missiles.


    FULL ARTICLE: https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/192052-istochnik-soobschil-o-nachale-formirovanija-jekipazha-dlja-tarkr-admiral-nahimov.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

    They missed the 6 Pantsir-M systems (each with 32 missiles) and the silos for Redut in place of the old Kinzhal (SA-N-9) systems.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:28 pm

    Because there is no need for it, while the action would require a serious rebuilding of the ship itself.
    Including replacing of cabling, antennas etc.
    This is extremely costly job.
    Rif-M is still a very potent system, considering the fact that at the moment it uses a 48N6E family of missiles combined with 9M96 and 9M96E.
    At least if you hear what Rosobronexport has to say about it ;-)

    I was always amazed by the waste of space the Rif-M represented just from the beginning, but that was probably done by purpose ...

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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:27 pm

    Hole wrote:Poliment Redut has nothing to do with S-400. It´s the naval version of the S-350. Or the other way around.

    ok sorry for mixing it up, but still the S-400 9M96E2 and 48N6DM should have a naval variant they can put on these ships?

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