Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+99
Scorpius
Sujoy
thegopnik
Navy fanboy
ALAMO
JohninMK
Podlodka77
Arrow
Mir
TMA1
The_Observer
Backman
limb
tomazy
Kiko
mnztr
lancelot
Begome
magnumcromagnon
ult
william.boutros
x_54_u43
Singular_Transform
LMFS
Tsavo Lion
jhelb
marat
DerWolf
Rodion_Romanovic
owais.usmani
bolshevik345
southpark
verkhoturye51
Gibraltar
hoom
Hole
archangelski
miketheterrible
The-thing-next-door
KiloGolf
walle83
Tingsay
Peŕrier
T-47
eridan
Azi
Benya
miroslav
zg18
SeigSoloyvov
kvs
A1RMAN
wilhelm
Boban
Isos
zardof
franco
AlfaT8
max steel
PapaDragon
Tyloe
Ranxerox71
GunshipDemocracy
collegeboy16
chicken
Naval Fan
Ugen
Kimppis
TheArmenian
GJ Flanker
GarryB
Mike E
Big_Gazza
navyfield
Vympel
Morpheus Eberhardt
Werewolf
Vann7
xeno
ali.a.r
gaurav
stealthfanker
dionis
Hachimoto
KomissarBojanchev
a89
flamming_python
Viktor
George1
TR1
Firebird
runaway
Cyberspec
Pervius
Austin
Russian Patriot
Stealthflanker
Admin
sepheronx
103 posters

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11371
    Points : 11339
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:52 pm

    Vulkans are an advanced weapon, and although the airframe is evolved from the old 1960s P-5/P-35 "Shaddock", they are entirely a different beast. A Bazalt/Vulkan salvo functions as a wolf-pack:

    The missiles were intended to be used in salvos; a submarine could launch eight in rapid succession, maintaining control of each through a separate datalink. In flight the group could co-ordinate their actions; one would fly to a higher altitude and use its active radar to search for targets, forwarding this data to the other missiles which remained at low altitude. The missiles were programmed so that half of a salvo would head for a carrier target, with the rest dividing between other ships. If the high-flying missile was shot down, another from the salvo would automatically pop up to take its place. All of the missiles would switch to active radar for the terminal phase of the attack
    Source is wikipedia (a shit source but useful sometimes...)

    I think you can take for granted that final attack run isn't performed in a straight line to assist the enemies defenses

    They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it os not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4752
    Points : 4744
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:15 pm

    Isos wrote:They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it is not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.

    They don't AFAIK pack with Oniks, only between themselves, though conceivable they could with Granit as both P-500/1000 and P-700 as both are products of NPO Mashinostroyeniye, so the flight control and targetting systems will be based on same technologies (for that matter, so is P-800 Oniks so I'd expect their salvos to operate similarly as well).

    Vulkan flies at M2.5, about same as Granit/Onyx.  Agreed that its not stealthy, but what heavy AShMs are?  Finally, as I said, the P-1000 is most useful when an enemies defenses have been degraded due to previous attacks.  P-1000 (and P-700) is the sledge hammer you use when the enemy is reeling and ready for the killer punch.  One hit and the biggest flat-top is mission-dead, and that's gotta be a weapon worth keeping.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39611
    Points : 40105
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:37 am

    The main problem of customised weapons (ie Vulkan and Granit) means that when you have a few ships carrying such weapons you need to stock all the ports it will operate from with a different missile system and equipment and crew to load and maintain it from.

    Fitting UKSK launchers means everywhere you stock standard missiles which will fit all ships... even if diverted to a different port than normal.

    The Vulkan and Grant are potent missiles, but in terms of performance Zircon and Onyx do something very similar in a much smaller and much lighter package allowing more to be carried....
    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 2843
    Points : 2881
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:25 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it is not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.

    They don't AFAIK pack with Oniks, only between themselves, though conceivable they could with Granit as both P-500/1000 and P-700 as both are products of NPO Mashinostroyeniye, so the flight control and targetting systems will be based on same technologies (for that matter, so is P-800 Oniks so I'd expect their salvos to operate similarly as well).

    Vulkan flies at M2.5, about same as Granit/Onyx.  Agreed that its not stealthy, but what heavy AShMs are?  Finally, as I said, the P-1000 is most useful when an enemies defenses have been degraded due to previous attacks.  P-1000 (and P-700) is the sledge hammer you use when the enemy is reeling and ready for the killer punch.  One hit and the biggest flat-top is mission-dead, and that's gotta be a weapon worth keeping.

    Honestly I seriously doubt a carrier will be operable after strike form Zircon, especially if it strikes from front or rear. I shudder to think how far it can penetrate if it strikes at M5. In fact I think hitting front, rear or plunging will be almost mandatory if not fusing becomes very difficult.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39611
    Points : 40105
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:26 am

    Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...
    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door


    Posts : 1324
    Points : 1380
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Uranus

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:23 am

    GarryB wrote:Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...

    What about a 45 degree dive with a solid armor piercing warhead I would like to see them try and fix that at sea.
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11371
    Points : 11339
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:49 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...

    What about a 45 degree dive with a solid armor piercing warhead I would like to see them try and fix that at sea.

    It probably already has this 45 degree dive on impact to hit what's in the lower part of the ship like engines and fuel and let the water goes inside to sink it. More usefull than hiting the deck.
    avatar
    Peŕrier


    Posts : 275
    Points : 273
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Peŕrier Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:47 pm

    Something flying at 5+ Mach, to perform a 45 degrees dive, would have in the first place to climb some hundreds if not thousand meters high before performing the dive, easing this way the work of interceptors.

    Flying low just above sea level is key to make interception difficult, first because of clutter generated by sea surface, and second because any high -G manouvre from an intercepting missile at very low height could easily turn into the interceptor ditching itself into the sea.

    AS-2 used to dive in the final course before hitting the target, and that flight pattern has been abandoned for very good reasons.

    Trying to intercept a sea-skimming missile is a hell of a job even against subsonic missiles, doing against a high mach number one would be way more difficult than intercepting whatever try to dive from medium heights, no matters its speed.
    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door


    Posts : 1324
    Points : 1380
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Uranus

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:53 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:Something flying at 5+ Mach, to perform a 45 degrees dive, would have in the first place to climb some hundreds if not thousand meters high before performing the dive, easing this way the work of interceptors.

    Flying low just above sea level is key to make interception difficult, first because of clutter generated by sea surface, and second because any high -G manouvre from an intercepting missile at very low height could easily turn into the interceptor ditching itself into the sea.

    AS-2 used to dive in the final course before hitting the target, and that flight pattern has been abandoned for very good reasons.

    Trying to intercept a sea-skimming missile is a hell of a job even against subsonic missiles, doing against a high mach number one would be way more difficult than intercepting whatever try to dive from medium heights, no matters its speed.

    Taking an unpredictable evasive course like the Iskander is still better and this seems to be the way Russian missile development is going.

    Seeing it is irrelivent if you cannot hit it.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13364
    Points : 13406
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:53 pm


    Fresh one from the real world:

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 ZC5yYWRpa2FsLnJ1L2QyMy8xODAyL2I0L2ZlMzYzMjQ5YjIzMC5qcGc_X19pZD0xMDM3NTg=
    KomissarBojanchev
    KomissarBojanchev


    Posts : 1429
    Points : 1584
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 26
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:06 am

    Can anyone give an analysis that weighs the advantages and disadvantages between the P-1000/P-500 and P-700? AFAIK both have salvo networking capability, both are sea skimming, both have the same speed, both have the similar ranges(except P-1000 has an advantage here). What made soviets decide to use 2 very different missiles almost analogous in capability? Was it the ability for the P-700 to be vertically launched while the P-500 couldnt?
    archangelski
    archangelski


    Posts : 624
    Points : 641
    Join date : 2015-04-25

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  archangelski Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:09 am

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 ZzZprBe
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13364
    Points : 13406
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:24 pm

    archangelski wrote:https://i.imgur.com/zzZprBe.jpg

    It's back in the water?

    When is this from?
    TheArmenian
    TheArmenian


    Posts : 1880
    Points : 2025
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:16 pm

    Old photo.

    This is from when they brought it to Sevmash for the major Kapremont.
    avatar
    hoom


    Posts : 2352
    Points : 2340
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:40 pm

    Apparently there is major changes to the plan to the extent of requiring a new contract
    http://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=485479
    google translate wrote: "Given the fact that the Ministry of Defense made significant changes to the terms of reference, we, in general, now need to re-sign, probably, an additional agreement and continue to work on the basis of the additions already made." I can not say anything more, "- said A. Rakhmanov on the sidelines of the industrial exhibition "Innoprom".
    "Now we will understand how the amount of modernization will change, I mean already on the basis of the contract, we will continue working on it," A.Rakhmanov said
    Doesn't actually say whether its more new stuff or a cutback Suspect

    In context of contemplating not upgrading Moskva & apparently Poliment-Redut (which is supposed to be coming to Nakhimov) causing further delays on 22350 a cutback would seem likely.
    On the other hand, money saved on Moskva could allow more for Nakhimov...
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13364
    Points : 13406
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:19 pm


    Russian Navy making shit up as they go along and changing their minds every 2 minutes like a spoiled golddigger whore as is their time honored tradition

    Like I said before: give them one ship type that they can have and tell them to either use it or go fuck themselves

    Never indulge bitches because they will always keep asking for more and will never do what they are told
    avatar
    chicken


    Posts : 110
    Points : 115
    Join date : 2014-09-04

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  chicken Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:12 am

    hoom wrote:

    In context of contemplating not upgrading Moskva & apparently Poliment-Redut (which is supposed to be coming to Nakhimov) causing further delays on 22350 a cutback would seem likely.
    On the other hand, money saved on Moskva could allow more for Nakhimov...

    When did they say that Poliment-Redut was coming to Nakhimov? I was under the impression that it will get the same AA system as Peter the Great since the budget clearly included S-300FM and no mention of Poliment-Redut, only some new Dirk.
    avatar
    hoom


    Posts : 2352
    Points : 2340
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:35 pm

    Its been variously quoted as part of the upgrade, pretty consistently in recent articles, the code for Poliment radar was part of the old component list.
    I'm not sure its been actually officially stated though.
    AlfaT8
    AlfaT8


    Posts : 2477
    Points : 2468
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  AlfaT8 Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:57 pm

    Regardless, it looks like the Redut is the great "delayer" used by the shipyards now.

    Honestly, someone needs to bring back "Order 227" for these Shipyards.  Mad
    avatar
    hoom


    Posts : 2352
    Points : 2340
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:31 pm

    Actually Severnaya Verf/USC is arguing that its done all the work needed, problem is between Navy & Almaz-Antey -> Navy should take Gorshkov off its hands and fully pay for the damn thing!
    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15439
    Points : 15576
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  kvs Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:06 pm

    hoom wrote:Actually Severnaya Verf/USC is arguing that its done all the work needed, problem is between Navy & Almaz-Antey -> Navy should take Gorshkov off its hands and fully pay for the damn thing!

    You are assuming that the management at Almaz-Antey is honest and not trying to screw over the taxpayer.

    Future contracts should stipulate the exact conflict resolution process. If the contractors don't want to abide, they can
    go and get stuffed. Starving capitalists need your money!
    avatar
    hoom


    Posts : 2352
    Points : 2340
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:47 pm

    Point is the shipyard isn't trying to hide behind Poliment-Redut issues.
    AlfaT8
    AlfaT8


    Posts : 2477
    Points : 2468
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  AlfaT8 Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:54 pm

    hoom wrote:Point is the shipyard isn't trying to hide behind Poliment-Redut issues.

    Both parties, are probly blaming each other and demanding more money to "resolve" the problem whichever gets the money, the other gets a cut.
    Everyone wins, except the the tax payer of course.

    Order.227 for both of them as far as i am concerned.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4752
    Points : 4744
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:27 pm

    The Russian Navy will receive the nuclear cruiser Admiral Nakhimov in 2022

    The Russian Navy will receive a heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, which undergoes major overhaul with modernization at Sevmash in 2022. The general director of the enterprise, Mikhail Budnychenko, told TASS on Wednesday at the forum "Army-2018".

    "Under the contract with USC in 2022, the heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov should be transferred to the fleet, although there are some issues with funding, I hope, and I am even sure that they will be resolved soon," Budnichenko said.

    He also said that the same-type heavy nuclear-powered cruiser "Peter the Great", which is in the combat composition of the Russian Navy, will undergo similar repairs with modernization not on Sevmash. "The cruiser will be repaired either in the center of the ship repair" Zvezdochka ", or at the Baltic plant," Budnichenko said.

    Earlier, a source in the defense industry informed TASS that the work on the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov was delayed until 2022.

    "Admiral Nakhimov" project 1144 "Orlan" until 1992 was called "Kalinin". It was laid on May 17, 1983 at the Baltic Shipyard. The ship was launched on April 25, 1986, and on December 30, 1988, it replenished the combat composition of the Russian Navy.

    In the spring of 2013, a state contract was signed for the repair and modernization of the ship, which was delivered to the dry dock of Sevmash in the fall of 2014. As a result of modernization, the cruiser will have completely new tactical and technical characteristics.

    So we are already ~2-3 months short of 3 years in rebuild, and looks like there is ~3 to go, assuming floated by end of 2021 for delivery in 2022.  Hmmm..  she originally took 5.5 years to build from laying down to acceptance.  I suppose its not the Soviet era anymore, and with complex ships its often harder to strip and rebuild than it is to build new.   Rolling Eyes

    Given that PtG is active and maintained  in good condition, its expected her upgrade will be a much less costly affair. Fingers crossed...  silent

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5480010
    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 2843
    Points : 2881
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:08 pm

    does it make sense to use a different shipyard to rebuild the next one?

    Sponsored content


    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 22 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Jul 18, 2024 12:22 am