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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update

    Mir
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    Post  Mir Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:23 am

    ALAMO wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:
    * FOREVER GOODBYE to ;Small missile ships of projects 21631 and 22800, as well as patrol ships of project 22160; insufficient sailing range, there are only extremely close range systems (at 21631 with Gibka system) and only Pantsir (22800 project and from the third ship), while 22160 has nothing. There are no anti-submarine weapons on those ships, while there are no missile weapons on the 22160, but it does have a helicopter.

    I seriously disagree.
    Those ships play an extremely important role in the whole Russian Navy concept, and de facto closing a niche of impotence Russkie always had with their fleet. No matter how big it was, it was separated into different theatres of operation, unable to relocate quickly and achieve local dominance. This is how it was defeated by an inferior enemy.
    Now with that mosquito fleet they finally achieved the flexibility and potential to make a secret, safe and effective dominance at demanded front.
    Sure you can kill the locks, block the river routes, but you can do perfectly nothing to defeat a 2500km range cruise missiles carrier that sits hidden in the grassy shore of Ladoga lake and covers the whole of Europe with its missiles.
    I like those small ugly motherf*ukers.
    Like them a lot bro Laughing Laughing

    Yes those small missile and other patrol boats are actually essential, but I do agree with Podlodka in that they need to pay serious attention to small ASW boats - replacing the ancient Grisha and Pauk boats. These ASW orientated boats should also be very useful against the type of drone attacks we've seen recently.
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:28 am

    They have much more ASW assets than the whole of NATO combined.
    Poland's ancient trawlers are a valuable asset of a NATO ASW fleet due to lack of competition.
    Russkie invest heavily in this class of vessels, 12700 type is being steadily built in numbers - 10 constructed and in various construction stage. Talking about 30-40 pcs of it, they mean it...

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    Post  Mir Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:15 am

    ALAMO wrote:They have much more ASW assets than the whole of NATO combined.
    Poland's ancient trawlers are a valuable asset of a NATO ASW fleet due to lack of competition.
    Russkie invest heavily in this class of vessels, 12700 type is being steadily built in numbers - 10 constructed and in various construction stage. Talking about 30-40 pcs of it, they mean it...

    Yes you are talking about minesweepers here which are equally important no doubt. The class of boats I am talking about should be much more ASW orientated armed with 91R-1/2 ASW missiles and perhaps even small helicopter drones with Sonobuoy/charges.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:42 am

    Mir wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:They have much more ASW assets than the whole of NATO combined.
    Poland's ancient trawlers are a valuable asset of a NATO ASW fleet due to lack of competition.
    Russkie invest heavily in this class of vessels, 12700 type is being steadily built in numbers - 10 constructed and in various construction stage. Talking about 30-40 pcs of it, they mean it...

    Yes you are talking about minesweepers here which are equally important no doubt. The class of boats I am talking about should be much more ASW orientated armed with 91R-1/2 ASW missiles and perhaps even small helicopter drones with Sonobuoy/charges.
    In soviet time, in addition to the ASW destroyers of the udaloy class (project 1155), they also had the small Grisha class (Project 1124) ASW corvettes, which are only marginally larger than the project 20800 karakurt class corvette (but they were too small to host a Ka-27 ASW helicopter)

    The project 20380 Steregushchiy class are large multi-purpose corvettes which main task is ASW warfare, but they are also much bigger than the Grisha class (they have almost 3 times the displacement of the Project 1124).

    If they want a smaller ASW corvette they could maybe think at a ASW modification of the Project 22160 patrol ship, or possibly even a ASW modification of the 800 tons displacement 20800 class corvette with maybe a helipad and a small hangar for a Ka226 helicopter.

    Note: the Baynunah-class corvettes, which have about 900 tons displacement and are only 4 metres longer than the karakurt , have a hangar for a helicopter.

    A modification of the Israeli Navy Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat (Aliya subclass) currently in service with the Mexican mavy , 500 tons and 62 metres long (5 metres shorter than the karakurt) also has an helicopter hsngar

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    Post  Mir Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:03 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    In soviet time, in addition to the ASW destroyers of the udaloy class (project 1155), they also had the small Grisha class (Project 1124) ASW corvettes, which are only marginally larger than the project 20800 karakurt class corvette (but they were too small to host a Ka-27 ASW helicopter)

    The project 20380 Steregushchiy class are large multi-purpose corvettes which main task is ASW warfare, but they are also much bigger than the Grisha class (they have almost 3 times the displacement of the Project 1124).

    If they want a smaller ASW corvette they could maybe think at a ASW modification of the Project 22160 patrol ship, or possibly even a ASW modification of the 800 tons displacement 20800 class corvette with maybe a helipad and a small hangar for a Ka226 helicopter.

    Note: the Baynunah-class corvettes, which have about 900 tons displacement and are only 4 metres longer than the karakurt , have a hangar for a helicopter.

    A modification of the Israeli Navy Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat (Aliya subclass) currently in service with the Mexican mavy , 500 tons and 62 metres long (5 metres shorter than the karakurt) also has an helicopter hsngar

    Apart from the Grishas they also had equally impressive ASW corvettes of the Parchim II pr.1331M class and the even smaller Pauk pr.12412 boats - all of these classes still serving today. As you mentioned they all lack helicopters, but I think UAV's can be a good substitute/alternative on these small boats like the Karakurt you've mentioned. The Pr.22160 would naturally be an excellent candidate as it already has the capacity for a Ka-27 size helicopter.
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    Post  AMCXXL Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:43 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Mir wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:They have much more ASW assets than the whole of NATO combined.
    Poland's ancient trawlers are a valuable asset of a NATO ASW fleet due to lack of competition.
    Russkie invest heavily in this class of vessels, 12700 type is being steadily built in numbers - 10 constructed and in various construction stage. Talking about 30-40 pcs of it, they mean it...

    Yes you are talking about minesweepers here which are equally important no doubt. The class of boats I am talking about should be much more ASW orientated armed with 91R-1/2 ASW missiles and perhaps even small helicopter drones with Sonobuoy/charges.
    In soviet time, in addition to the ASW destroyers of the udaloy class (project 1155), they also had the small Grisha class (Project 1124) ASW corvettes, which are only marginally larger than the project 20800 karakurt class corvette (but they were too small to host a Ka-27 ASW helicopter)

    The project 20380 Steregushchiy class are large multi-purpose corvettes which main task is ASW warfare, but they are also much bigger than the Grisha class (they have almost 3 times the displacement of the Project 1124).

    If they want a smaller ASW corvette they could maybe think at a ASW modification of the Project 22160 patrol ship, or possibly even a ASW modification of the 800 tons displacement 20800 class corvette with maybe a helipad and a small hangar for a Ka226 helicopter.

    Note: the Baynunah-class corvettes, which have about 900 tons displacement and are only 4 metres longer than the karakurt , have a hangar for a helicopter.

    A modification of the Israeli Navy Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat (Aliya subclass) currently in service with the Mexican mavy , 500 tons and 62 metres long (5 metres shorter than the karakurt) also has an helicopter hsngar

    pr. 20380 basically they come to fill the gap left by the Krivak class, prematurely withdrawn from service
    pr. 20380 are called "corvette" in Russia but in fact are 2nd range class vessels with 2200-2500 tons, in classical NATO designation are frigates or ligth frigates (FFL)

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:07 pm

    AMCXXL wrote:


    pr. 20380  basically they come to fill the gap left by the Krivak class, prematurely withdrawn from service
    pr. 20380 are called "corvette" in Russia but in fact are 2nd range class vessels with 2200-2500 tons, in classical NATO designation are frigates or ligth frigates (FFL)
    I know, I just meant that they are the smallest modern ship with ASW capabilities currently in production for the Russian Navy.

    Frigate is very ambiguous as therm, as even in the Russian navy you can go from the gepard class (smaller than the 20380) to the modernised udaloy (7500 tons) displacement)

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:54 pm

    Soviet era Pr.10230 Bizon ASW corvette based on the smaller Pr.1239 Bora missile boat would have been interesting.

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 26 Pr102310

    A much larger version also made it into model form that had some serious weapons on board incl 2 Ka-27 helicopters and S-300 missiles.

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 26 15859810

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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:23 am

    They don't just have the Ovtet for the UKSK launch tubes, they also have the Medvedev launcher... smaller, lighter and shorter ranged and only carries anti sub rockets carrying anti sub torpedoes but smaller and more compact and easy to fit on smaller vessels if required.

    People here are talking about ASW or anti ship or other type small ships but their current corvettes are all multirole and would work in teams to hunt subs or ships or defend from aircraft or drones.

    Not every corvette needs a helicopter and not all helicopters need to be 12 ton Helix sized aircraft... the Ka-226T is smaller and lighter and of course drone based helicopters could be used as well.

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    Post  Mir Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:03 am

    Some corrections and a bit more detail on the two SES type projects.

    The Pr.10230 Tur (not Bizon) ASW corvette was an early 1980's project.
    The Tur had a displacement of around 1600 tons with a speed of around 55 knots.
    Armament included Kinzhal and Vodapod missiles, 1x AK-176 and 2x AK-630 guns and hanger for 1x Ka-27 helicopter

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 26 Pr102310

    The much larger SES type boat Pr. 10210 Bizon was a much earlier project dating back to the 70's but the project was terminated in 1981.
    The Bizon had a displacement of around 5000 tons with a speed of 50 knots.
    Armament included the S-300F Fort, Kinzhal and Vodapod and Ura missiles. It also packed Kortik/Kashtan CIWS and a AK-176 gun plus 2x Ka-27 helicopters.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:55 am

    Mir wrote:
    Yes you are talking about minesweepers here which are equally important no doubt. The class of boats I am talking about should be much more ASW orientated armed with 91R-1/2 ASW missiles and perhaps even small helicopter drones with Sonobuoy/charges.

    One of the main reasons the Soviets used a waste fleet of small ASW corvettes was a fact, that they had a problem with constructing more universal platforms.
    Parchim you have mentioned was a downgraded German build chaser with a very specified role - it was constructed to hunt down small subs in the shore zone. That was Baltic first of all. The Baltic is a really shitty sea for ASW warfare, as it combines lots of thermoclines with different zones of salt and even oxygen content in the water. That is why a dipping sonar is a must, and that was the smallest ship that had one.
    Now all Russian ships that use USKS can carry ASW weaponry, and all of them do have a serious sonar suite. So a niche closed seriously for a need of having narrowly specialized ASW corvettes. A few years ago they have trained a new tactics, with 22160 corvette being a group lider responsible for getting targeting data and distribute them among the older ships lacking modern sonar suite.

    GarryB wrote:Medvedev launcher...

    Medvedka bro Very Happy
    It is RPK-9.

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    Post  Mir Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:39 am

    ALAMO wrote:
    Mir wrote:
    Yes you are talking about minesweepers here which are equally important no doubt. The class of boats I am talking about should be much more ASW orientated armed with 91R-1/2 ASW missiles and perhaps even small helicopter drones with Sonobuoy/charges.

    One of the main reasons the Soviets used a waste fleet of small ASW corvettes was a fact, that they had a problem with constructing more universal platforms.
    Parchim you have mentioned was a downgraded German build chaser with a very specified role - it was constructed to hunt down small subs in the shore zone. That was Baltic first of all. The Baltic is a really shitty sea for ASW warfare, as it combines lots of thermoclines with different zones of salt and even oxygen content in the water. That is why a dipping sonar is a must, and that was the smallest ship that had one.
    Now all Russian ships that use USKS can carry ASW weaponry, and all of them do have a serious sonar suite. So a niche closed seriously for a need of having narrowly specialized ASW corvettes. A few years ago they have trained a new tactics, with 22160 corvette being a group lider responsible for getting targeting data and distribute them among the older ships lacking modern sonar suite.

    These type of corvettes and patrol boats were all really designed for coastal and harbour protection against submarines and saboteurs. I think it is an important niche.

    The Buyan, Grachonok and probably the Karakurt class boats have some towed anti-saboteur sonar but they don't rally have any weapons to use against submarines though. They will have to call a friend.

    The more serious Krivak/Burevestnik frigates (corvettes in reality)were really good sea keeping ships. They were supposed to hunt for submarines with the Moskva helicopter carrying cruisers and the Kiev class carriers which had plenty of helicopters on board.

    You can design a coastal ASW defense system in the same format - but all of them should have the capacity to kill a sub.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:22 pm

    Russian ASW corvettes are something more potent that it might have seen on the first glance.
    The RBU units all of them carry were modernized in the 90s and 00s, and now carry ammunition called 90R and R1. Those are not simple dumb depth charges, but homing missiles lacking propulsion only. Those are diving gravitationally, and actively home for the submarine. The 90R1 model was heavily modernized and it is capable of home on an incoming torpedo.
    So de facto even a small Russian ASW corvette carries dozens of smart antisubmarine munition.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:30 am

    Plus you should not look at them individually because they will work together as a team in a group to perform multiple roles.

    Lots of their corvettes just carried anti ship missiles and were to stop any attempt at landing anywhere they could get to.

    Corvettes without sonar can still operate helicopter and drones and towed dipping sonars of a range of types.

    An important use for Corvettes is to help protect other vessels looking for enemy subs too.

    Saying one type of corvette is useless because it does not have extensive anti sub equipment, is like saying a sniper is useless because he doesn't have an anti tank missile.
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    Post  limb Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:25 pm

    lancelot wrote:There is no comparison really. You are comparing a navy which is in full swing in terms of production to one which is still trying to come up with the proper ship types to manufacture. Why don't you look at the Chinese ships from 1990-2010 then? It was a succession of pathetically obsolete ships, mishmashed designs, and poor designs in general made in homeopathic amounts until they came up with the ship types they have in service at the moment. I think the major mistake Russia made was believing they could import weapon components. After the Chinese were hit with sanctions following the Tiananmen Square incident in 1989 they have had severe restrictions on weapons imports. Given that experience and their previous experience with the Soviets withdrawing technical support after the Sino-Soviet split they basically demand the capability to license manufacture anything they use in their own military to any large degree. That is where I think Russia failed with its imports of MTU engines and Ukrainian gas turbines. They should have never put those in the critical production path without demanding tech transfer first.

    I think the Russian industry responded quite quickly to the gas turbine shortage. 5 years is the typical minimum for a project like that to enter production. Ramping up to mass production will take longer. The main issue is the goddamned diesels.

    Interesting. What do you think was the reason Russia didn't want to license produce german marine diesels? In the 2000s russia license produced catherine thermals so the germans theoretically should have allowed it. The better question is why the Russian army insisted on license production and tech transfer of western components, but the russian navy didn't care. Was it just financial stinginess?
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:22 pm

    Was it just financial stinginess?

    At the time they were buying these engines they were not buying thousands, only a couple per year if that and so it really didn't make sense to licence produce them.

    The Thermal Imagers were different... thermals can be installed in almost every vehicle and every weapon to turn that platform or weapon into a day night all weather system so you could be making millions of them... and the primary reason they started licence producing them was so they could put them in vehicles they were selling to India... export equipment and vehicles got those thermals before the Russian military started using them for themselves.

    Thales could also get the Russian companies to make thermals cheaper than they could make them in France so they could sell them to third parties and being cheaper to make in Russia meant an even bigger profit margin for Thales in those sales.

    Obviously Russia would not be making engines for German companies to sell to third parties because Germany wanted to make that money to support their own economy.

    It is also not stinginess when there is no money to spend.

    The Russian Navy never had money to waste.
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    Post  Arrow Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:10 pm

    Podloodka 77, this graphic shows very well how many ships are currently being built by Russia.A country that does not aspire to be a navy power.

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 26 20210517-101440

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:31 pm

    Yes, but that picture is from last year and some units under construction are missing....

    * Corvettes "Braviy" and "Grozniy" (both of the project 20380) are put under question mark and the author of the picture put them as units that are under construction, so I will not add anything there except the name for the corvettes.

    * Another 3 project 20385 corvettes are not in that picture; Buiniy, Razumny, Bistriy,

    * Another 2 diesel-electric project 677 submarines are not in that picture; Vologda and Yaroslavl,

    * One minesweeper of the project 12700 is not in that piscutre.

    * Many of the submarines in the picture are already operational; K-552 Knyaz Oleg, K-553 Novosibirsk, K-329 Belgorod, B-602 Magadan. They are about to be put into use; K-553 Generalissimus Suvorov, K-571 Krasnoyarsk, B-586 Kronshtadt, B-588 Ufa
    The following submarines will almost certainly be launched soon; K-564 Arkhangelsk, K-XXX Emperor Alexander III, B-587 Velikiye Luki and B-XXX Mozhaysk, and possibly Khabarovsk.

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    Post  Arrow Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:36 pm

    So, within two years, the construction of more ships began. The graphics are not up to date, you can see more and more warships being built. It is enough to look at what it looked like a decade ago. You can see that in the last decade, the progress in building new ships for the VMF has greatly accelerated.

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    Post  lancelot Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:20 pm

    They need to put the Project 22350 frigate in series production at more than one shipyard.
    They should put it under production at Yantar or Zaliv as well. It is kind of obvious the engine production rate issue is solved.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:34 pm

    lancelot wrote:They need to put the Project 22350 frigate in series production at more than one shipyard.
    They should put it under production at Yantar as well. It is kind of obvious the engine production rate issue is solved.

    No Lancelot, no.. The first thing they need to do is finally send the fucking "Golovko" to sea trials and show themselves and the world that they finally have reliable gas turbines for those frigates.
    I gave up on that story and I don't think there will be any progress regarding the introduction of those frigates into service in the next 2 to 3 years. It is a shame to imagine that the naval command approved the 22350 project for construction back in 2003 and that the first frigate was laid down in 2006. And what do we have in 2022 ? Two, two fucking frigates in 20 years. If we are realistic, 20 years is a long time and the question is how valid that project is for today's conditions of warfare and above all the sailing range of those frigates is too short. There is no excuse for Russia to allow itself to find itself in a position where it has not yet completed the gas turbines for these ships. There is no point even thinking about ships with an even larger displacement than the project 22350 frigates, because they need even more powerful turbines and diesel engines than those on the 22350 frigates. The only solution is nuclear power.
    Honestly, the only thing that really annoys me are the project 22350 frigates. No luck from that project and I don't see any positive progress in Russian shipbuilding of "larger" displacement surface warships, because the project 22350 frigates are one of the smallest full displacement frigates in the world. Yes, they have excellent weapons, but also the shortest sailing range - and they are built by the country with the largest coastline in the world.
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    Post  lancelot Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:53 pm

    UEC Saturn finished the design of the M90FR gas turbines in 5 years. The annexation of Crimea was in 2014 and they had working engines in 2019. Since then they produced gas turbines not just for the Admiral Golovko but also for the Admiral Isakov. If anything the bottleneck seems to be production of the reduction gear at Zvezda in St. Petersburg not the gas turbines. But it seems kind of obvious they can supply the engines and reduction gears for one ship a year. They would have supplied the engine units for the Admiral Isakov even earlier if Zvezda did not spend time producing reduction gear for that waste of space Project 20386 ship.

    It was a mistake to rely on Ukraine for anything in the first place. But I think they worked at a good pace in replacing the Ukrainian components. And yes it remains to be seen how reliable the new engine units will be but I am fairly sure they will solve any issues that might happen.

    They just need to increase production of the Project 22350 frigates I think. And design something to replace the Karakurt corvette which does not use the Zvezda radial engines.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:59 pm

    lancelot wrote:UEC Saturn finished the design of the M90FR gas turbines in 5 years. The annexation of Crimea was in 2014 and they had working engines in 2019. Since then they produced gas turbines not just for the Admiral Golovko but also for the Admiral Isakov. If anything the bottleneck seems to be production of the reduction gear at Zvezda in St. Petersburg not the gas turbines. But it seems kind of obvious they can supply the engines and reduction gears for one ship a year. They would have supplied the engine units for the Admiral Isakov even earlier if Zvezda did not spend time producing reduction gear for that waste of space Project 20386 ship.


    Lancelot, I respect your work on this forum and there is no dispute about that.
    I don't see any progress and I won't be satisfied until I finally see "Admiral Golovko" on sea trials. If everything goes well with those tests, only then can we expect an acceleration of the construction of those frigates. The key to the whole story is "Golovko", while the smaller problem is whether the frigates will be built by Severnaya Werf, Yantar or Amur.
    And the project 20386 corvette has been under construction for 6 years, so nothing is going right there either. At this rate that corvette could be the only corvette of its project built by 2030 as there are no other corvettes of that project under construction and no new contracts announced for the construction of project 20386.
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    Post  lancelot Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:09 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:At this rate that corvette could be the only corvette of its project built by 2030 as there are no other corvettes of that project under construction and no new contracts announced for the construction of project 20386.
    I hope so. That the series gets cancelled. That ship is a waste of money and resources. It uses the same propulsion resources as a Project 22350 frigate and is worse in every way. Weaker artillery piece, half or less the land attack VLS cells, and half the SAM cells. Not to mention the AK-630 instead of the Palash CIWS. It is full on retard. From the same people who gave us the Project 22160 ship design which cannot even protect itself against drones in the Black Sea and uses the same engine resource as a Project 20380 corvette. Pure sabotage.


    Last edited by lancelot on Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  limb Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:37 am

    lancelot wrote:UEC Saturn finished the design of the M90FR gas turbines in 5 years. The annexation of Crimea was in 2014 and they had working engines in 2019. Since then they produced gas turbines not just for the Admiral Golovko but also for the Admiral Isakov. If anything the bottleneck seems to be production of the reduction gear at Zvezda in St. Petersburg not the gas turbines. But it seems kind of obvious they can supply the engines and reduction gears for one ship a year. They would have supplied the engine units for the Admiral Isakov even earlier if Zvezda did not spend time producing reduction gear for that waste of space Project 20386 ship.

    It was a mistake to rely on Ukraine for anything in the first place. But I think they worked at a good pace in replacing the Ukrainian components. And yes it remains to be seen how reliable the new engine units will be but I am fairly sure they will solve any issues that might happen.

    They just need to increase production of the Project 22350 frigates I think. And design something to replace the Karakurt corvette which does not use the Zvezda radial engines.

    What makes reduction gears so much more complex to produce than a gas turbine? Why was zvezda of all manufacturers contracted to produce it when its been an abviously corrupt trashheap barely imrpoved since the 90s? Why couldn't kolomna, klimov, aviadvigatel, etc produce the reduction gears?

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