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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:44 pm

    hoom wrote:Updated diagram of ships under construction
    http://charly015.blogspot.com/2019/04/actualizando-el-grafico-de-los-buques-y.html
    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 18 Armada%2Brusa%2Bbuques%2By%2Bsubmarinos%2Ben%2Bconstrucci%25C3%25B3n%2Babril%2B2019
    Purple = launched but not complete/in service yet.


    I love how they made Khabarovsk smaller in this diagram than Lada-class even though it's a modified Borei SSBN... lol1
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:46 am

    I don't know why people quote Southfront as some sort of authoritative source, they're Westerners using open sources & frequently have translation errors that implies use of Google translate & not great ability to read between the lines of its limitations.

    That said the basic thesis there is not wrong: Official plan calls for multiple blue-water CV groups but they're still nowhere near having an adequate new force to defend near-coastal regions.
    IMO first priority should be completing 6-ship squadrons of frigates, SSKs, ASW corvettes, minesweepers & missile boats for each main fleet as a basic minimum.
    Thats no small ask, its 120 ships...

    I love how they made Khabarovsk smaller in this diagram than Lada-class even though it's a modified Borei SSBN... lol1
    Good spotting Suspect
    My guess he got confused with Losharik?
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:16 am

    hoom wrote:I don't know why people quote Southfront as some sort of authoritative source, they're Westerners using open sources & frequently have translation errors that implies use of Google translate & not great ability to read between the lines of its limitations...


    They are also right wing nationalists so anything that isn't​ UBER EXTREME is not good enough in their book
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    Post  Gazputin on Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:42 am

    isn't the main point of that great diagram re Navy fleet …. which ones are Kalibr cruise missile armed ? with the red "C"
    the Russian Navy strategy seems pretty obvious to me

    especially considering the bullshit INF Treaty only restricts land-based missiles …
    shows me the real reason the USA is spewing about the INF … it restricted Russia 10x more than NATO ….
    as Russia didn't have sea launch capability of NATO …. until now

    the chessmaster … at it again methinks

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    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:38 pm

    http://tass.com/defense/1056060

    Russia starts building two frigate for India.
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    Post  marat on Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:07 pm

    Isos wrote:http://tass.com/defense/1056060

    Russia starts building two frigate for India.
    So at the end are those ships new or those which were already started for RuN? 4 years should be to long for already started ships IMHO.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:26 pm

    New ones. India ordered 4 of them. Russia is building two of them and india will build another two.

    The ones you are talking about are more likely to go to Russia unless they sell it to an arab state. Unused new build ships are easy to sell as the client can get quickly. Algeria, UAE, saudi arabia, vietnam ... all could be interested.

    Grigorovitch seems to be very good ships. India has similar but bigger domestic frigate with israeli barak 8 missiles (plus shtil) and still buys grigorovitch instead. That means a lot.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:24 pm

    Isos wrote:http://tass.com/defense/1056060

    Russia starts building two frigate for India.

    It was started a long time ago...

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=497689&lang=RU

    They have been sitting stranded with no engines.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:46 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:http://tass.com/defense/1056060

    Russia starts building two frigate for India.

    It was started a long time ago...

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=497689&lang=RU

    They have been sitting stranded with no engines.

    Then TASS is late.

    But in your link, that is from dec 2018, it is also said they will start work in the first months of 2019. It is not said they have started the work back then. That's what I understood from the auto translation.

    Engines will most likely come from germany or ukraine as export ships are not sanctioned by EU.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:27 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Then TASS is late.

    But in your link, that is from dec 2018, it is also said they will start work in the first months of 2019. It is not said they have started the work back then. That's what I understood from the auto translation.

    Engines will most likely come from germany or ukraine as export ships are not sanctioned by EU.


    Probably they have not communicated it in a very clear way. To me as well the times are a bit long, since previous taiwar frigates were delivered to india after 3 years from starting construction, and the first 2 frigates of this new contract are already half built...

    Maybe they agreed longer times in order not to have problems in case of delays, or if they need to concentrate on Russian Navy orders...


    Anyway, I do not expect them to build additional frigates of these type, if not per additional exports.
    If they had a reliable supplier of engines for 11356 frigates it would be a nice ship to export to many other countries (e.g. Egypt, Algeria, Vietnam, etc).


    However Russia does not produce the engines for such ships (ukraine made an exception for India) and I do not see the advantage of redesigning the ships to be compatible with the propulsion system of gorshkov class.

    After finishing with those ships for India the resources of Yantar would be much better used producing gorshkov frigates or gorshkov-m frigates/destroyers.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:07 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Then TASS is late.

    But in your link, that is from dec 2018, it is also said they will start work in the first months of 2019. It is not said they have started the work back then. That's what I understood from the auto translation.

    Engines will most likely come from germany or ukraine as export ships are not sanctioned by EU.

    It says they are resuming work on the hulls of Admiral Butakov and Admiral Istomin which are in varying states of readiness.

    The engines will come from Ukraine and have been collecting dust for several years. The ships must be towed to India for their installation.

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:56 am

    Ships under construction for Russia. Not that bad actually.

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 18 D47gwd10
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    Post  medo on Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:46 am

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    Post  Hole on Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:00 am

    Isos wrote:Ships under construction for Russia. Not that bad actually.

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 18 D47gwd10

    And this are "only" the armed ships. There are a lot of support ships of all sizes/flavors being built.
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    Post  franco on Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:42 am

    medo wrote:

    Interesting view of the naval use of UAV's around 22:00.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:05 pm

    Isos wrote:Ships under construction for Russia. Not that bad actually.

    It is actually quite bad as most of them are backlogged waiting for engines and or funds for completion.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:17 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:Ships under construction for Russia. Not that bad actually.

    It is actually quite bad as most of them are backlogged waiting for engines and or funds for completion.

    That's good actually for you. Before you were totally dependant on germany and ukraine for engines. Now you will be able to make your ships 100% russian.

    The past 5 years were hard for RuN but that's the past. On the other hand german and ukrainian compabies lost a big client.

    Since you have all those ships waiting for engine that will oblige you companies to work hard to make engines and once they make them your navy will get all the ships you see here in one time which will drasticaly boost your power.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:21 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:Ships under construction for Russia. Not that bad actually.

    It is actually quite bad as most of them are backlogged waiting for engines and or funds for completion.

    That's good actually for you. Before you were totally dependant on germany and ukraine for engines.....


    Unless you miss USSR, in that case nothing will ever be good enough




    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:Ships under construction for Russia. Not that bad actually.

    It is actually quite bad as most of them are backlogged waiting for engines and or funds for completion.


    Which ones besides Karakurts and Buyans?
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:41 pm

    Isos wrote:
    That's good actually for you. Before you were totally dependant on germany and ukraine for engines. Now you will be able to make your ships 100% russian.

    The past 5 years were hard for RuN but that's the past. On the other hand german and ukrainian compabies lost a big client.

    Since you have all those ships waiting for engine that will oblige you companies to work hard to make engines and once they make them your navy will get all the ships you see here in one time which will drasticaly boost your power.

    How is it good for me to have a fleet of vessels rusting away at the wharf? How is it good for the ships to run under-powered engines that do not meet the needs of the Navy if and when they get them?

    The loss of Ukraine from the MIC should have been factored beforehand. To design these ships with German MTUs in mind was crazy. Did they really think they would maintain technical cooperation with us?

    Yes, we should crack the whip and tell these people to stop wasting our money. I am just glad the state no longer rewards incompetence and laziness with payments.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:56 pm

    By you I mean Russia. Don't take it personnaly Very Happy

    That's why I say it is good. It will just oblige your MIC to produce everything from now by themselve at good standards. If they don't ships will die at port so MOD will pressure them to finish.

    First engines won't meet requirements but second generation will and then you will be totally independant.

    It's a big investement thanks to US sanctions. If you were not sanctioned and not obliged to design your own engines, you will be still buying german and your domestic projects would be done slowly and probably be stoped before completetion.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:12 pm

    Isos wrote:By you I mean Russia. Don't take it personnaly Very Happy

    That's why I say it is good. It will just oblige your MIC to produce everything from now by themselve at good standards. If they don't ships will die at port so MOD will pressure them to finish.

    First engines won't meet requirements but second generation will and then you will be totally independant.

    It's a big investement thanks to US sanctions. If you were not sanctioned and not obliged to design your own engines, you will be still buying german and your domestic projects would be done slowly and probably be stoped before completetion.
    He isn't even in Russia.....
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:44 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    He isn't even in Russia.....

    ... and yet I still pay taxes to it.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:58 pm

    Isos wrote:By you I mean Russia. Don't take it personnaly Very Happy

    That's why I say it is good. It will just oblige your MIC to produce everything from now by themselve at good standards. If they don't ships will die at port so MOD will pressure them to finish.

    First engines won't meet requirements but second generation will and then you will be totally independant.

    It's a big investement thanks to US sanctions. If you were not sanctioned and not obliged to design your own engines, you will be still buying german and your domestic projects would be done slowly and probably be stoped before completetion.

    The fleet structure and industrial policy is completely wrong.  We should have invested everything into a long line of 22350s, 24 in total to form the basis of the surface fleet.  Corvettes with high end weapons are a waste of tonnage and expense that cannot project power in blue water.  They should be centered around two nuclear carriers with the full capabilities of CATOBAR and 6 LPHs to project naval infantry.  Let the FSB patrol the EEZ and invest in a blue water navy. We have so many projects of corvettes it is just a waste of resources.  We need commonality among the fleet to make logistics and servicing easier and cheaper. Have one corvette, one frigate, one LPH and one carrier class... with everything we have spent maintaining the old, we could have built all of this new.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:31 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:..... We should have invested everything into a long line of 22350s,

    You did... and then bet the bank on Ukrainian loyalty.

    Lord Darwin has no favorites.



    Vladimir79 wrote:.....Corvettes with high end weapons are a waste of tonnage and expense that cannot project power in blue water.  

    And what would you do once you are in that precious blue water?

    There is no more ideology to enforce, no more clients (ungrateful ones I might add) to protect, no trade lanes you use that need controlling and no resources you don't have at home already.

    All your enemies are are right next door in Europe and maybe (big maybe) across Sea of Japan. And none of them require blue water navy to deal with.



    Vladimir79 wrote:.....They should be centered around two nuclear carriers with the full capabilities of CATOBAR

    USSR at the apex of it's might could not come close to having even a single nuclear carrier even with that insane suicidal military budget.

    They could barely build and operate helicopter carriers.

    How on Earth do you expect Russia to have one especially on a budget not compiled by by geriatric commies with 8 years of elementary school? And I mean that as a compliment. Remember what killed USSR?



    Vladimir79 wrote:.....Let the FSB patrol the EEZ and invest in a blue water navy.

    Russia is not USA, you are not flanked by two oceans and not bordered by two glorified provinces.

    Having Coast Guard (FSB) patrol EEZ is a luxury that USA has but you don't, never had and never will.



    Vladimir79 wrote:.....We have so many projects of corvettes it is just a waste of resources.  

    Corvettes is what you can build and more importantly what you need.

    And even that is a stretch.

    All this hassle with building corvettes and people want carriers?

    It's like wanting to have a Lamborghini when you can barely pay for and build a tricycle. All the while living next to dirt road...



    Vladimir79 wrote:..... with everything we have spent maintaining the old, we could have built all of this new.

    No you couldn't.

    Navy was swimming in cash until recently and all they managed to build were those hated corvettes.

    No matter how much money you dump on carriers you will always be 3rd rate in that department, that is if you don't bankrupt yourselves (again) first.

    And even if you build one (fat chance) what will you use it for? Fly airplanes around potential hostiles which are all within range of land based aviation?

    More money down the latrine...
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    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:11 pm


    The fleet structure and industrial policy is completely wrong.  We should have invested everything into a long line of 22350s, 24 in total to form the basis of the surface fleet.  Corvettes with high end weapons are a waste of tonnage and expense that cannot project power in blue water.  They should be centered around two nuclear carriers with the full capabilities of CATOBAR and 6 LPHs to project naval infantry.  Let the FSB patrol the EEZ and invest in a blue water navy. We have so many projects of corvettes it is just a waste of resources.  We need commonality among the fleet to make logistics and servicing easier and cheaper. Have one corvette, one frigate, one LPH and one carrier class... with everything we have spent maintaining the old, we could have built all of this new.

    Well this totally depends on what Russia plans to do in the next century. Having such navy means you want to invade countries.

    Military speaking Russia doesn't even need a navy since they have 5000 nuks, neither an army. No one will dare to attack them (specially if the only weapons you have are your nuks).

    Russia send 4 su-35 and 12 su-24 and 2 corvettes in Syria before NATO send anything and the world knew Assad was the winner the next day.

    The thing is that with the 4 su-35, 12 su-24 and 2 corvettes they can still destroy the world. As long as this is true Russia won't need a huge navy.

    But if you want to control Africa and some south american countries, then you need carriers and 24 Gorshkovs. But USA will always have more money and more military tools to make that almost impossible. Like in Venezuela for exemple.

    Edit: 4 smaller nuclear carrier would improve such navy rather than only two. With your shipbuilding slow repairs you can bet that both would end up in drydock for a long time togather. With 4 of them you can always have one ready and at sea 1 can cover the other one and if ones is destroyed you have the second one. Supercarrier are divas nothing more.

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