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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:08 pm


    One thing that surprised me is construction pace of Bykov-class patrol ship. They are being built at decent speed. One of the reasons for it is probably lighter equipment load but whatever.

    This production speed opens up some options that I was not expecting earlier.

    While they can't use these as platform to build true multi-role ships what they definitely can do is to order dedicated anti-sub version. They just need to add bow sonar, towed sonar is already available as well as helicopter. 8 anti-sub missiles fit in 2 containers and maybe AA VLS behind main gun (if they feel like it but it's not a dealbreaker). They can probably even squeeze in Pantsir somewhere, who knows...

    With this they would get replacement for older dedicated anti-sub corvettes. Also with 2 month endurance they would be able to go on patrols for very long time which is handy since you don't know where subs are unlike land or surface targets (so Karakurts can get by with 2 week endurance without an issue, they don't have to look for their targets since someone else does it for them)

    Having anti-sub boat roaming submarine bastion for 2 months straight would be pretty neat.

    Given the production speed of Karakurts and Bykovs they would be able to replace entire fleet of old missile ships and anti-sub boats 1:1.

    This would allow Russia to create very thick padding of their home waters with fresh ships and free up all larger ships for long distance ops.
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    hoom


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    Post  hoom Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:49 am

    LITTLE RED CORVETTES? Russia’s Building Warships Faster Than America—or even China
    Clickbait headline, same old propaganda & half-truths for 'content'...

    Does at least sort of acknowledge the validity of Jeune Ecole style for Russias geographic situation but still manages to portray it as some kind of proof of Putin Russia Aggression Russia Aggression Russia...

    One thing that surprised me is construction pace of Bykov-class patrol ship. They are being built at decent speed. One of the reasons for it is probably lighter equipment load but whatever.
    Sadly not really, Bykov was laid down in Feb 2014, launched August 2017, 2nd boat almost bang on 3yrs from laid down to launch which isn't exactly rapid for 1500tons & very limited armament/electronics.
    Does partly have excuse that several systems particularly engines were delayed by need for import substitution.

    Edit: At the moment there is quite a surge of ships coming into service after a couple of years with not much, I think there's 3 main causes: several long delayed projects finally getting finished/kicked into order (IG, 22350, 11356, Amur 20380s), some newer stuff that had import substitution related delays (22160, 21631, 20385) & new stuff like 22800 just finishing in fairly normal time.
    (bunch of auxiliary projects will fit into those categories also)


    Last edited by hoom on Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:15 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The BSF will be without a flagship for [at least a few more] years
    http://www.ng.ru/armies/2018-07-17/100_moscow170718.html?print=Y

    Bad news. To plug this gap, they may transfer a CG from the NF or PF.
    In a few years, the Ukraina fate may also be resolved- we will see if Russia will get her before she's scrapped!  

    Oh god I hope not. If they cant pay to keep the current flagship in active service they absolutly wont afford the cost for getting that old lady in shape.
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    Post  walle83 Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:59 am

    Is it any news of the old Kerch cruiser in the BSF? Will it be scrapped after the fire or could it see some more active duty?
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    Post  franco Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:09 am

    walle83 wrote:Is it any news of the old Kerch cruiser in the BSF? Will it be scrapped after the fire or could it see some more active duty?

    It is scheduled to become a floating museum.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:22 pm

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/14648/this-video-about-the-navys-decaying-shipyards-makes-its-355-ships-goal-seem-laughable
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:59 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/14648/this-video-about-the-navys-decaying-shipyards-makes-its-355-ships-goal-seem-laughable

    ...Regardless, these facilities are an embarrassment. We expect to see this type of thing in Russia, not in facilities that are critical to supporting the world's most powerful and technologically advanced Navy. ...

    Author is being too harsh on USN.

    Yes situation is sub-par but in comparison to situation in Russia it's an ideal to aspire to.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:17 am

    Of course... the US Navies goal is to match or be better than a country that spends less than 10% they do, has had serious problems like a political and several economic collapses, and of course open hostility from the western world for the last decade... and they are still failing.

    Of course they will be even worse off because they have publicly stated a goal, so when they fail to achieve that goal Papa is going to say their management is incompetent and need to be shot...

    Funny thing is that the missile tubes for their new submarines are not properly wielded and have faults... when did they hire stupid Russians for their wielding... I thought there was only perfect robot wielding in the west...

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    Post  hoom Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:01 pm

    Charly015 has made an interesting new graphic http://charly015.blogspot.com/2018/08/primer-acercamiento-al-grafico-de-los.html
    What the future Russian surface navy could look like based on some already built, whats building and currently announced planned numbers.

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 10 Armada_rusa_a_futuro

    I don't think I buy the idea of 3* big CVs as well as K.
    K would probably go out of service either immediately after 1st new CV completes (if one ever starts) or at most the 2nd. (unless magically Russia starts pumping them out like China)
    If including K & the Kirovs should probably include Ustinov at least if not some of the Udaloys.
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:29 pm


    Looks like Charly015 has been smoking the good stuff... lol1

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    Post  hoom Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:04 am

    Those are all built, in build or announced plans though.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:50 am

    hoom wrote:Those are all built, in build or announced plans though.

    Shtorm-class​ fanart and Anime-class nuclear destroyer are just somebody's wet dream

    If they do build either carrier or destroyer they will definitely not be these

    This collage is just a joke
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    Post  hoom Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:01 am

    I'd call it optimistic rather than fantasy or its based off the publicly stated fantasy of senior Russian Govt officials.

    Those profiles are based on the models that have been publicly presented by companies submitting proposals so its not fair to just call them fanart even if nobody expects the final program to actually look like that.
    Obviously announced numbers aren't the same as contracts signed or construction completed, neither of which even guarantees construction completing & ships going into service.

    But do you believe there will be 18* 22800s built?
    • As far as I'm aware there aren't contracts for 18, there are 7 in construction but the number 18 has been repeatedly stated & seems a reasonable target.
    • 6* Buyan-M are in service, the other 6 in construction.
    • All 6* 22160 are laid down.
    • 1 of the icebreakers is laid down, pretty sure there is contract for the 2nd & I think its expected to be laid down soon.
    • All 10* 20380 & both 20385 are under construction.
    • Only the 1st 20386 is laid down, no progress made public but 10 is the number thats been announced as the plan for the class, it being intended to be the new main Frigate size ship. Clearly the actual number built has a fair chance of being different but when making a chart of 'what might the future navy look like' isn't it reasonable to take the announced 10?
    • Both Gepards are built.
    • 3* 11356 are in service the other 3 depicted are in construction, whether all 6 are completed, only the 3 already in service or only 1 more is still unclear but optimistically why not show all 6?
    • 4* 22350 are in service or under construction.
    • We don't know much about 22380M other than the project name, estimated 8,000ton size, some depictions from industry that would fit with a bigger/improved 22350 & announcement of 8 planned, its consistent to depict 8 of them.
    • 6* Lider based on the public display model & announced plan for 6.
    • 2* Ivan Gren, 1 is in service the 2nd is launched.
    • 2* Livina are again based off a model & CGIs made by a company submitting proposals, Russian Navy clearly wants them as replacement for the un-delivered Mistrals.
    • 2* Kirovs were completed, both are planned to be upgraded.

    K is getting new propulsion so can be expected to be around for a while at least.
    I've already expressed doubts about 3* large new CVs as well as K simultaneously but there's been officially stated desire for 4* carriers.

    Put all together like that it looks more impressive than when split out between 4* fleets & Caspian flotilla.
    Bear in mind that while this shows 19 new ships over 8000ton, UK alone will have 16 without even counting other EU, Japan & South Korea let alone China or US.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:27 am

    K would probably go out of service either immediately after 1st new CV completes (if one ever starts) or at most the 2nd.

    Why spend money overhauling the K if it is useless?

    If it is not useless why scrap it just because you have one new one?

    If they have two new ones that means they have three, so one in refit/overhaul, one on patrol and one in training... retiring the K just means less carrier support available.

    Three carriers are more useful than two.

    Actually the above chart shows three new carriers (CVNs)... plus the K... perhaps they could modify the K into an arsenal ship covered in UKSK bins and SAM launchers replacing the entire deck and hangar area, with enormous Kinzhal launchers with a solid rocket booster twice the length of the existing missile... effectively creating an Iskander with a range of 1,500-2,000km range.

    Being a naval vessel it will not conflict with the INF treaty or any other treaty... as long as its range is less than 5,500km it is not a strategic missile...

    Some times air support will be needed but often just lots of SAMs and cruise missiles might be what is needed... put a couple of 203mm long range artillery guns on board and you are set...
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    Post  marat Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:05 am

    GarryB wrote:
    K would probably go out of service either immediately after 1st new CV completes (if one ever starts) or at most the 2nd.

    Why spend money overhauling the K if it is useless?

    If it is not useless why scrap it just because you have one new one?

    If they have two new ones that means they have three, so one in refit/overhaul, one on patrol and one in training... retiring the K just means less carrier support available.

    Three carriers are more useful than two.

    Actually the above chart shows three new carriers (CVNs)... plus the K... perhaps they could modify the K into an arsenal ship covered in UKSK bins and SAM launchers replacing the entire deck and hangar area, with enormous Kinzhal launchers with a solid rocket booster twice the length of the existing missile... effectively creating an Iskander with a range of 1,500-2,000km range.

    Being a naval vessel it will not conflict with the INF treaty or any other treaty... as long as its range is less than 5,500km it is not a strategic missile...

    Some times air support will be needed but often just lots of SAMs and cruise missiles might be what is needed... put a couple of 203mm long range artillery guns on board and you are set...

    Russia will not have 3 new carriers in next 25-30 years.

    By that time K will be 5o years old and ready for new major refit, and this time that should be total remont and modernization. Bill would surely be bigger then 1 or even 2 billion usd.

    I don't think it is likely that they will have spare money to invest in such a old ship.

    Why modify 50 year old ship for new role? Why not build new one (If you actually need those kind of ship)?




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    Post  hoom Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:22 am

    Russia will not have 3 new carriers in next 25-30 years.
    Yes that was my reasoning.
    Not because K is useless, just the timescale for 3 new CV coming into service is very long unless they suddenly hit China pace.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:11 pm

    hoom wrote:I'd call it optimistic rather than fantasy or its based off the publicly stated fantasy of senior Russian Govt officials.

    Those profiles are based on the models that have been publicly presented by companies submitting proposals so its not fair to just call them fanart even if nobody expects the final program to actually look like that.
    Obviously announced numbers aren't the same as contracts signed or construction completed, neither of which even guarantees construction completing & ships going into service..........

    If author wanted to be taken seriously (which obviously wasn't his goal given the result) he would not have used images that have no basis in reality.

    Even speculative random hand drawn silhouette would have made more sense than what he decided to use.

    Cut away top part of that picture and numbers make sense but otherwise it's a joke.


    hoom wrote:.....
    But do you believe there will be 18* 22800s built?
    As far as I'm aware there aren't contracts for 18, there are 7 in construction but the number 18 has .........

    Yes there will. It's not just about numbers of ships announced. We (and others) came to that number based on amount of 75mm naval guns ordered so far.
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    Post  LMFS Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:23 pm

    @PapaDragon:

    those drawings come from actual design bureaus, they may be pipe dreams, wet dreams or whatever but they are the only thing available which is not fan art
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:07 am

    GarryB wrote:Why spend money overhauling the K if it is useless?

    If it is not useless why scrap it just because you have one new one?

    Agreed. The K still has at least 20 years if service left in her, and more like 30+ all things considered as long as she receives periodic repairs/refurbs. When she comes out of her current refit, she will be a very different ship and these perennial nay-sayer clowns will look awfully stupid.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:50 am

    Most of its electronics are obsolete as is its armament and communications and other systems, so as it is the K could not continue on for very long, but at the end of the day a carrier is much better than no carrier, and I agree they are certainly not going to get three brand new CVNs by 2030... they might have one new one by then, which means having the K operating would be rather more useful than scrapping her and just having one carrier again. By 2035 they will likely have a second in the water, but I still think the K would be useful even then... lets face it the current plans are for the F-35 to be everyones standard fighter so even an Su-35 like aircraft operating from the K would be good enough most of the time... especially with the new types of radar it will be able to operate and the missiles also using such guidance systems too... will render stealth largely the white elephant it is... perhaps they might develop the F-14-2000... certainly much less stealthy than an F-35 but also much bigger payload, speed, range... etc etc.

    They don't need carriers to fight NATO or the US or WWIII, they are to assure Russian Navy access around the world and to protect Russian navy surface vessels... they don't need to be 100K ton super carriers either, but they can't be dinky little half carriers like the Hermes or Mistral.

    Bigger than the K for the fixed wing carriers and 30K ton plus for the Mistral replacements.

    No VSTOL shit.
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    Post  Hole Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:18 am

    Kuznetsov could still be used for training.


    Regarding the pic, I guess that there will be more small and medium size ships until all carriers and cruisers/destroyers are ready. Probably a second series of Bykovs plus more Karakurts.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:15 pm

    In the second half of 2018, Russian naval units in the Pacific are expected to receive two improved Project 22800 guided-missile corvettes, one Project 21980 Grachenok counter-sabotage high-speed armed patrol craft and some minor auxiliary vessels, ..
    And much more is to come. Pacific units expect to take possession of at least 30 new warships (11 new submarines and 19 new surface combatants) and seven new major auxiliary vessels by 2024, Muraviev said. These include guided-missile frigates, guided-missile corvettes and mine hunters.
    Bilateral cooperation in naval shipbuilding may also intensify. “Chinese companies already supply the Russian navy with limited amounts of ship engines to ease the shortfall caused by suspension of defense collaboration with Ukraine and Germany,” he said. ..
    At a time when China has built over-capacity in its shipbuilding industry, it would make sense for Chinese yards to build entire ships for Russia. “It may be possible that Chinese shipbuilders will be involved in some naval construction programs for the Russian navy,” Muraviev said. http://www.atimes.com/article/russia-expands-assets-and-naval-horizons-across-indo-pacific/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=c471ae694f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_15_01_12&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-c471ae694f-31607385
    If there is a demand, there'll be ready supply!
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    Post  eehnie Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:18 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    In the second half of 2018, Russian naval units in the Pacific are expected to receive two improved Project 22800 guided-missile corvettes, one Project 21980 Grachenok counter-sabotage high-speed armed patrol craft and some minor auxiliary vessels, ..
    And much more is to come. Pacific units expect to take possession of at least 30 new warships (11 new submarines and 19 new surface combatants) and seven new major auxiliary vessels by 2024, Muraviev said. These include guided-missile frigates, guided-missile corvettes and mine hunters.
    Bilateral cooperation in naval shipbuilding may also intensify. “Chinese companies already supply the Russian navy with limited amounts of ship engines to ease the shortfall caused by suspension of defense collaboration with Ukraine and Germany,” he said. ..
    At a time when China has built over-capacity in its shipbuilding industry, it would make sense for Chinese yards to build entire ships for Russia. “It may be possible that Chinese shipbuilders will be involved in some naval construction programs for the Russian navy,” Muraviev said. http://www.atimes.com/article/russia-expands-assets-and-naval-horizons-across-indo-pacific/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=c471ae694f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_15_01_12&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-c471ae694f-31607385
    If there is a demand, there'll be ready supply!

    Tis article is pure trolling:

    And there is more to come. Russian units in just the Pacific expect to take delivery of 37 new vessels by 2024 – a major acceleration compared to the 28 new units received in the region over the last decade. This indicates that despite scrapping programs deemed too expensive – notably the Leader-class destroyer and Storm aircraft carrier program – the Kremlin is moving ahead with a very ambitious naval upgrade.

    False. Zero credibility.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:32 am

    But even if it is, there's a grain of truth: Russia has under capacity in shipbuilding, while China has overcapacity, evidenced of the speed of her naval buildup in last decade. Who else is going to buy their medium/big ships? At best, u can count those countries on 1 hand!
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    Post  eehnie Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:47 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:But even if it is, there's a grain of truth: Russia has under capacity in shipbuilding, while China has overcapacity, evidenced of the speed of her naval buildup in last decade. Who else is going to buy their medium/big ships? At best, u can count those countries on 1 hand!

    By 2019 with the end of the upgrade in the Zvezda shipyard, I think the capacity of the Russian shipyards will be more than enough for the own Navy. Russia still will have to gain the hability of builiding some types of ships, like these of the Project 23560 and the Project 23000. This only will be assured with the end of the production of the first ship of both projects, but this is more a situation of building human capabilities than of lack of capacity. This is a situation that Russia wants to afford soon and will work hard to do it successfully by 2025 approximately.

    With the big amount of ships under construction, new orders of complete ships from China seem very unlikely for me.

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