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    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:30 am

    Isos wrote:There is no point having the 20836 which is expensive for its class, carry just one container more than other ships (for calling it multirole) and is poorly armed.

    The 20836 is first and foremost a technology demonstrator and testbed for emerging new construction technologies.  It is as radically different from previous corvettes like the 20830 Steregushy as the 20830 was from the 1135 Burevestnik/Krivak.

    What, do people really not understand this????   Seriously????   Suspect

    FFS its just a single hull being developed as a first-of-class for a post-20830/20835 corvettes.  Just sit and watch and see where it goes from here.  The Russian navy isn't going to make-or-break on one 3,400T hull....

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:46 pm

    Sure, but if you look at the specifications that are available, it is supposed to use similar propulsion to the Admiral Gorshkov in number of and type of turbines. It is getting close to the displacement of the Admiral Gorshkov. Yet it has like a third of the VLS cells. Once Admiral Gorshkov gets updated i.e. Admiral Chichagov this 20386 will look even more anemic. And I also doubt it will have the same seamanship capabilities. I mean just look at it. Wtf is it with a "corvette" with 3400 tons displacement? Ridiculous.

    Well part of the problem is that the navy has changed.

    Corvettes used to be single design ships for one mission only... often that mission was anti ship/anti carrier with large heavy anti ship missiles like the OSA with a medium gun that was normally used during peace time as a patrol boat... the enormous powerful missiles silly and redundant most of the time.

    Skip forward to now and their new corvette designs can still have anti ship missiles, but even Uran armed ones can use their missiles against land based targets, and most are fully multirole with UKSK systems enabling a range of weapon loads... not to mention massively upgraded sensors and communications equipment... they are fitted with Sigma, which is the Russian equivalent of AEGIS.

    More importantly the Russian Navy really did not use a lot of Frigates... most of there Frigates were used by the MVD and KGB as coastal patrol and light duties, the Soviet Navy tended to use destroyers for near and far operations... they didn't travel enormous distances a lot with them either.

    It seems the sophisticated nature of their new Corvettes and Frigates means these two types alone could probably handle most local defensive operations around Russia, but the new helicopter landing ships and the Ivan Gren type landing ships that will be replacing older models will need support ships like destroyers and cruisers, and of course aircraft carriers for operations great distances from Russian waters.

    They need different corvette types because corvettes are the smallest ships so it is harder to make them fully multirole.

    No ship would normally act on its own and ships the size of corvettes and frigates are designed to defend themselves but are not big enough to protect other ships.

    An anti sub mission one corvette would be useless, but combine 3-4 corvettes and add a few frigates and you end up with a capable well armed force with quite a few helicopters and drones capable of hunting down enemy subs.

    Having different types of corvette makes sense, but a frigate sized ship should be big enough to have sonar and radar and a variety of weapons to protect itself.

    A destroyer is even bigger and can be even better armed to not just protect itself but also other ships, while the whole purpose of a Cruiser is size and weapon capacity and sensor size to protect a group of ships, while a fixed wing aircraft carrier is there to provide eyes and ears and a 360 degree view of the sea and air around those ships so nothing can sneak up and surprise them.

    Carriers don't make groups of ships invincible... but they make them much more costly to attack and will defeat attacking forces that would have beaten the same group of ships without that carrier and its air component.

    The presence of a carrier in the Falklands war made the British Force viable, though it was a close run thing because pocket carriers with useless VSTOL fighters were marginal in the role at best. If they had had a better carrier with Phantom fighters with Sky Flash BVR missiles and Buccaneer strike aircraft and of course AWACS aircraft they probably would not have lost ships and would not have needed the risky Vulcan missions.

    Russia has five fleets and extreme climatic conditions... having one or two extra different corvettes is a good idea just to see what works best and that means if they work as planned they can buy the correct number of ships and place them where they are most useful.

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:07 pm

    indeed the not all Navy ships are missile platforms, some ships have other jobs and roles that do not require that.

    People on this forum have such a one-dimensional view about the Navy it's sad.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:54 pm

    Very much agree... the measure of a ship is not how many missile tubes it carries... impressive as that might be.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:31 pm

    The Mercury is a larger version of the Bykov class. Made for long range operations with changing modules of weapons/sensors/drones/UGVs and so on. The guns and missiles build into the hull are just the tip of the iceberg.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:21 am

    https://en.topwar.ru/181672-tehnicheskij-spusk-korvet-proekta-20386-ubrali-iz-jellinga-chtoby-ne-meshal.html

    Some strange writing to be honest. They make it sound like they can build the gearbox and engines one or the other. Not saying anything that they can or cannot increase production.

    But I think some on authorities are not interested in this ship
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:24 am

    miketheterrible wrote:https://en.topwar.ru/181672-tehnicheskij-spusk-korvet-proekta-20386-ubrali-iz-jellinga-chtoby-ne-meshal.html

    Some strange writing to be honest.  They make it sound like they can build the gearbox and engines one or the other.  Not saying anything that they can or cannot increase production.

    But I think some on authorities are not interested in this ship

    This article is shit.  Thats not an off-the-cuff comment.  Its a considered viewpoint and one that I've settled upon after much thought and due consideration. I could be more verbose in my pronouncements (like in this paragraph..) but I feel that succintness is the best approach in this case.

    Hilarious that the author choses to quote other gibberish to apparently suggest that the concept of distributed lethality is somehow a failure. Consider the following:

    The main thing that does not suit us is the too high price and excessive armament - the Kalibr cruise missiles, which work against sea and ground targets. Project 20385 does not meet the requirements fleet", - said the interlocutor of the publication. According to him, the estimated cost of one ship is about 14 billion rubles, but in reality it can reach 18 billion. For a corvette with a displacement of 2,2 thousand tons, although made using stealth technology, this is a lot. The equally modern frigates of Project 11356, which are now being built for the Black Sea Fleet, have a displacement of almost twice as much - 4 thousand tons, and cost the same.

    The frigates of this project are ships of the open sea, with a significant range, and the corvettes 20385 are intended for the near sea zone. Sailors believe that such a powerful weaponlike "Caliber" to these small ships unnecessarily.

    Really? The 11356 is equally modern as the 20385, despite that fact that the 11356 isn't much more than a tarted up Talwar-class with a UKSK system?

    If "sailors" think the 20386 doesn't "need" a UKSK system, what does that say about the 21631 Buyan-M?  I guess because the guy who peels the potatoes or changes the bedclothes doesn't see why corvettees should be able to sink an enemy destroyer with a supersonic AShM, we should just remove the offending ordance and fit something more "suitable" like a few 75mm guns and a few RBU launchers???  Suspect

    The rest of this shoddy article is just the author puking what seems to be his personal disapproval of the concept of modularised systems, and his pissing and moaning about what he sees as unacceptale compromises.

    He yabbers that the 20386 artillery system will be "less effective than that of the old 20380" yet they both have a single A-190 gun.  Suspect

    He complains that the hanger location will require a lift which is "an expensive and technically complex solution" - really? He think a hydraulic lift is complex?? Suspect

    He complains that specialist containers can't have overboard access to the sea without moving the FRC - yeah, so fucking what???  Suspect

    He complains that if a large 40" container is carried, the helo will be displaced from the hangar. Yeah, again so what?  Thats the whole fucking idea about modularity.  The ships configuration can be adjusted to match the fucking needs of the mission.  If the helo needs to sit on the back of the deck under a tarpauin and only be used when necessary (ie if other ships in the taskforce can't meet a specific operational need) so what?  Its a 3,400T hull, not a cruiser.  There isn't room for everything at once. The idea is to be able to reconfigure to maximise specific capabilities, and that requires a downgrade in others deemed less important to the mission.  Suspect

    Check out this utter bullshit...  /facepalm x 100

    A special problem is the placement of the antenna sheets of the radar complex on the sides of the superstructure, which is made of composite materials.

    Many experts believe that due to the inevitable deformations of the superstructure when moving in waves, the canvases will “play”, randomly changing their position, which will make accurate shooting impossible.

    Wut?  This idiot thinks a flat panel array is supported by the outer skin rather than the inner structure? Does he really think the panels will move due to weather effects or vessel motions?  Does he really think that Russian naval architechs are so unutterably stupid that they don't know how to mount ships systems to a vessel that uses composities in its construction???    Experts?  What "experts" are saying this crappola?? Suspect  

    Then we have this little pearl of Sun Tzu-level wisdom:

    But even if everything works, nothing will work anyway.

    Yeah, I know I'm reading a translation, but even the dumbest literal machine couldn't disguise the empty-headed know-nuffin qualities on display here as he proceeds to lamblast the vessel radar system on no other facts than their location on the superstructure and unsubstaniated "wisdom" from the US and ChiComs.  Gods above, i need to marshall my strength to keep reading this nonsensical shit-slurry...

    I lost my will to continue as I fought my bodies basic need to expel stomach contents as I read his amateurish and arbitary "critique" on the 20386 powertrain configuration.

    Nah, this scribbler-for-hire just doesn't get it, and he is clearly working with an agenda.  The question is who is putting bread is his begging bowl and calling his tune?

    He's not a Ukrainian by any chance?  Suspect

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:43 am

    We shall see what the end results will be. This does scream the typical "know it all but hasn't accomplished anything experts".

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:45 am

    Big_Gazza wrote: but I feel that succinctness is the best approach in this case.

    I really enjoyed your succinctness thumbsup

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:40 am

    miketheterrible wrote:https://en.topwar.ru/181672-tehnicheskij-spusk-korvet-proekta-20386-ubrali-iz-jellinga-chtoby-ne-meshal.html

    Some strange writing to be honest. ....

    It has strange writing because this website seems to be compete dogshit (been saying this for a while)

    Not only do articles seem to be machine translated but so are the comments, first time I'm seeing it

    That's on top of the fact that what they write is mostly crap

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    limb

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    Post  limb Sat May 01, 2021 12:21 am

    Any info on why the hull was dumped outside? Does this have to do that zvezda fucked up again with engine delivery?
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat May 01, 2021 1:02 am

    limb wrote:Any info on why the hull was dumped outside? Does this have to do that zvezda fucked up again with engine delivery?

    With Russian Navy safest assumption is always that they fucked up with the engines

    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat May 01, 2021 8:06 am

    The rumours were that the suppliers had trouble delivering the reduction gear. It is supposed to be based on the reduction gear used in the Admiral Gorshkov.
    Another rumour was that they had trouble making the composite material superstructure due to lack of funding.

    Personally I think this whole thing is a waste of time and resources. Just look at how the Chinese do this kind of thing. They have a frigate class, the Type 054, with four diesel engines and 4000+ tons displacement. Their coast guard also needs ships with similar endurance and displacement, so they just build for them some Type 054s with a nerfed sensor and weapons load. What the Chinese don't do is develop a whole new class of ship with completely new components and different tooling just to satisfy a niche requirement. And they have over a billion people and a much large defense budget. Same deal with the Type 056 corvette. They also have coast guard versions of those. And their corvettes are 1500 tons displacement with just two diesel engines powering them which means they are hugely cheaper to build. I guess the closest to their corvettes in Russian terms would be the Karakurt class corvette, except the Type 056 has better seamanship capabilities. Different requirements, they don't need to travel the Russian canal system.

    Considering the huge limitations in construction capability of the Russian naval industry I would think they would be better served by at least making those ships as multifunctional as possible. I think the main design problems the Russian Navy have right now are a replacement for the Steregushchiy-class which is faster to build and maybe has a slightly higher top speed to be able to catch up with submerged submarines and more advanced weapons and sensors. Frankly I think the Gremyashchiy is good enough. They should just work on making it faster and cheaper to build. The other thing which needs to be sorted out is the propulsion for the smaller Karakurt corvettes. The government needs to make firm batch orders to the Russian engine industry which will allow them to finance expansion of existing production facilities to solve the production bottleneck.

    I still think this 20836 ship will be built, it just has gone way down on the priority list. It suffers from the issue it eats up the same resource as the Admiral Gorshkov class and we know which one would be better overall. You guys keep talking about the Project 22160 but those ships only use two diesel engines.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 01, 2021 1:53 pm

    What do you mean by dumped?

    Ships don't remain in the places they are made forever... eventually they have to go out and start being used.

    Being a modular corvette I would expect it will take longer to get right, but if they do manage to get it right it might be rather more useful than the other corvettes they have already made.

    I think I already mentioned that the biggest problem with Corvettes is their small size means that some things are often left off and it is hard to make them fully multirole and multifunctional.

    That is not the end of the world because I think I also mentioned that no ship would do very much on its own so a group of ships and perhaps even subs or aircraft can achieve all sorts of things.

    A modular system holds the promise of being even better as long as it has the modules it needs each time for each job.

    Of course with most ships having drones and helicopters then being able to carry some cargo containers with something they don't normally carry might be very useful... even if it means that ship wont be carrying its own helicopter in this case.

    What the Chinese don't do is develop a whole new class of ship with completely new components and different tooling just to satisfy a niche requirement.

    They Chinese also are not Russia... most of their weapons and systems seem derivative and perhaps they are afraid of making unique designs in case they fail.

    I guess the closest to their corvettes in Russian terms would be the Karakurt class corvette, except the Type 056 has better seamanship capabilities.

    The Karakurts are evolutions of Buyan river boats, but Corvettes are coastal defense littoral zone vessels that are not intended to sail around the world, they are not supposed to operate in the middle of the Atlantic during a storm... clearly making ships the Chinese way doesn't make sense if they are going to be used in different places and in different environments.

    Different requirements, they don't need to travel the Russian canal system.

    Which is probably an excellent reason why Russia should just keep doing what it is doing rather than copy China?

    Considering the huge limitations in construction capability of the Russian naval industry I would think they would be better served by at least making those ships as multifunctional as possible.

    Russian Corvettes and Frigates are better armed and more multifunctional than the best ships in the Royal Navy or the French Navy... if they wanted production like China they could make simple basic ships like they did 30 years ago.

    Instead they are making vastly more capable and multifunction and modular vessels with modern weapons and sensors... the production rate is not fast because there is something called design and testing where you make some stuff and then test to make sure it does what you want before putting it into mass production.

    If you don't you end up with fighter planes like F-35... in full production but not working properly yet and expensive... even more expensive if they eventually fix its problems.

    Frankly I think the Gremyashchiy is good enough.

    It is likely they will want to make their own decisions in that regard.

    There simply isn't funding or an interest to make enormous numbers of ships rapidly like China is currently doing, Russia is not China.

    They have plans in place for production and development and they are following that plan... as upsetting as that might be to internet fanboys who want ships now.

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    Post  Kiko Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:36 pm

    Source: Russia is building the first full-fledged stealth ship

    MOSCOW, June 8 - RIA Novosti. The newest corvette of the project 20386 "Mercury" will be the first of the Russian ships fully built according to the "stealth" concept, two sources in the shipbuilding industry told RIA Novosti.

    Previously, Russian ships used certain elements of "stealth" technologies, including a radio-absorbing coating, but the concept of an unobtrusive ship has not yet been fully implemented.

    "Corvette" Mercury "will be the first ship of the Navy, received radio-absorbing coverage over the entire area of ​​the outer surface structure. According to preliminary estimates, a hundred-meter ship will reflect a radio signal like a small boat," - said one of the agency's interlocutors.

    In addition to covering within the framework of the "stealth" concept, the superstructure of the corvette will have a special shape: the number of protruding elements and slots will be minimized on them, and various composite materials and special paints will be used.

    A second source confirmed this information, noting that it is planned to conduct special tests of the effectiveness of "stealth" -technology "Mercury".

    According to the agency's interlocutors, the corvette's hull is fully completed, and the ship's superstructures are now being formed.

    The project 20386 corvette "Mercury" is a new generation ship based on the project 20385, in which the modular principle of armament and the possibility of basing drones will be implemented. It was laid down on October 28, 2016 under the name "Daring". The transfer to the fleet is scheduled for 2022.

    The vehicle will be able to hit enemy surface ships with cruise missiles, search for and destroy submarines, provide anti-aircraft defense with an anti-aircraft missile system and provide artillery support during the landing.

    https://ria.ru/20210608/nevidimka-1736077988.html

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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:16 pm

    Supposedly the first part of superstructure of Mercury corvette being constructed at SV:

    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 19 25-96710

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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:57 pm


    Well if they get the superstructure done fast, attach it to the hull soon and have every other component already delivered and ready for installation the just might flip the engine on before 2022 is out

    Hopefully the can make it

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    Post  owais.usmani Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:26 pm

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=551442&lang=RU

    Moscow. June 10th. Interfax - Project 20386 stealth corvette Mercury may become an experimental vessel and not be part of the Russian Navy, the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov told Interfax.

    dunno
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:41 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=551442&lang=RU

    Moscow. June 10th. Interfax - Project 20386 stealth corvette Mercury may become an experimental vessel and not be part of the Russian Navy, the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov told Interfax.

    Like I said, whole thong is a testbed

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:44 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=551442&lang=RU

    Moscow. June 10th. Interfax - Project 20386 stealth corvette Mercury may become an experimental vessel and not be part of the Russian Navy, the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov told Interfax.

    Like I said, whole thong is a testbed

    it makes perfect sense, they saw that the baseline 20380 are working well and are finally being produced at a good pace.

    They need a sort of testbed for new technologies anyway, and this vessel is very good for the role

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:40 pm

    Sounds perfectly reasonable... they made three Zumwalt class ships of a planned 32 before they decided they would be test ships, and with the LCS they made about 16 or 17 before they realised their gearbox didn't work and they couldn't go faster than 16 knots, so that is 19-20 new test boats for the US Navy... they will likely spend billions more to make the 16 billion Ford class Helicopter barge to make it more than just a test vessel...

    In comparison they can test all sorts of new technologies on this ship...

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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:41 pm

    The hulls of the corvettes "Strogiy" (Eng: Strict) (factory number 1007) of project 20380 (left) and "Merkuriy" (Eng: Mercury) (factory number 1009) of project 20386 (right) after the "technical" launch at the Severnaya Verf (Eng: Northern Shipyard) Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 19 Img_2010
    20386 much bigger than 20380

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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:48 pm


    Difference is even bigger than anyone expected, different class of ship

    Basically they will use this first hull to test the hell out of everything because literally everything is fresh off the drawing board

    And like I said it explains the choice of off-the-shelf weapons and sensors: you have no need for full package until you know everything else works

    Second hull will be interesting



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    Post  owais.usmani Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:42 pm

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11721953

    SAINT PETERSBURG, June 23. / TASS /. The United Engine Corporation (UEC, part of the Rostec state corporation) has developed an engine for the newest frigates of Project 20386. On the eve of the start of the International Maritime Defense Show (IMDS-2021), the corporation's deputy general director Viktor Polyakov said in an interview with TASS.

    "UEC has developed a modification of the M90FR engine, intended for installation on promising corvettes of the 20386 project. Two engines have been manufactured, successfully tested and ready to be handed over to the customer," he said.

    It is assumed that the M90FR will become the basis for advanced marine engines. In particular, the UEC is currently working on options for creating a 25 MW engine based on the M90FR.

    The lead ship of Project 20386 was laid down at Severnaya Verf in 2016. Initially it was given the name "Daring", but in 2019 the military decided to rename the corvette to "Mercury" - in honor of the Russian brig. The ship of project 20386 is the most modern Russian corvette.
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    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 19 Empty Re: Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette

    Post  owais.usmani Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:43 pm

    Looks like the superstructure is pretty close to being finished and ready to be shipped to SV:

    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 19 26-98212
    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 19 26-98213

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