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    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette

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    owais.usmani

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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:49 pm

    Apparently this is the current state as per a recent Zvezda video:

    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 18 17-93910
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    limb

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    Post  limb Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:28 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:Apparently this is the current state as per a recent Zvezda video:

    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 18 17-93910
    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 18 17-93911

    Why so little progress in the last 5 years, especially since the weapons and most of the electronics are off the shelf?
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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:58 pm

    Apparently they need to make the superstructure which is a massive moulded composite structure so the moulds need too be made...bla bla bla. Then there is the turbine issue which is just getting resolved...
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:33 am

    limb wrote:Why so little progress in the last 5 years, especially since the weapons and most of the electronics are off the shelf?

    With the 22350 the delay was caused principally by (a) engine supply and (b) new weapons and sensors and battle management system that needed integrating and testing.  The ship itself wasn't the problem.

    With the 20386 the delay is the ship design and fabrication.  This ship is revolutionary for the Russian ship building industry (which is still in the process of being rebuilt following decades of neglect) and it won't happen overnight.  5 years seems reasonable to me considering the progress to date and the R&D cycle that was required.
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    Post  kvs Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:43 am

    Seriously, what's the rush. Do it right, or don't do it at all.

    It seems rather evident that various delays are not due to poverty but other factors such as redesign to use
    more advanced armaments and other things that would be called improvements. This particular project
    shows this by the removal of the CIWS since they will be rendered useless by hypersonic anti-ship missiles
    that NATzO may get in the near future.

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    Post  Arrow Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:34 am


    ince they will be rendered useless by hypersonic anti-ship missiles that NATzO may get in the near future. wrote:


    NATO and the US will not have hypersonic missiles for a long time. Unless aerobalistic like Iskander Kindzal.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:10 pm

    They already ordered 10 Steregoushchy for the pacific fleet.

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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:16 pm

    Isos wrote:They already ordered 10 Steregoushchy for the pacific fleet.

    Steregoushchy is an old design, lacks AESA and VLS on Gremyashchiy. Gremyashchiy is the only ship that can counter the growing Japanese menace against Kunashir and Iturup. Although in this case the mighty Chinese navy is able to relieve some pressure off Russia. China will not allow Japan to annex the southern Kurils considering the atrocities the Japanese did to the Chinese.
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    Post  mnztr Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:08 pm

    Arrow wrote:



    NATO and the US will not have hypersonic missiles for a long time. Unless aerobalistic like Iskander Kindzal.

    I disagree. They are actually modifying SM-6 to be used as a hypersonic AShM I expect it will probably be fielded in 12-24 months. Perhaps this is what you mean by aeroballistic but they are already testing an air breathing missile and doing integration flights with B-52.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:44 pm

    Surely you don't believe that a missile designed as a SAM can be as effective in the AShM role as a purpose designed weapon?? SM-6 as an anti-surface weapon is just a stop-gap, and the US has a long and illustrious history of ignoring the need for effective long range AShMs. They won't make up for that legacy any time soon.
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    Post  Isos Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:00 am

    Rocket powered missiles are hypersonic for a few seconds when their motor burns. But then it slow down pretty fast.

    S-300 missiles have also mach 6 speed but at 500km away they would be runing at mach 0.5 and falling towards the water.

    US anti ship missiles need to have at least the same range as Ru/Chinese ones. SM 6 can't reach 1000 km at hypersonic speeds, neither at any speed for that matter.

    However having a SAM able to hit ships is very good for close range because they have a lot of them ready to launch and they are very fast. In a scenario of a ship shadowing another ship and war starts it gives you a big advantage of first strike.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:08 am

    This particular project
    shows this by the removal of the CIWS since they will be rendered useless by hypersonic anti-ship missiles
    that NATzO may get in the near future.

    Pretty stupid to eliminate CIWS for a ship leaving it vulnerable to any low flying subsonic missile...

    There wont be any hypersonic sea skimming missiles...
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    There wont be any hypersonic sea skimming missiles...

    I am not too sure about that. There could be missiles that dive down and use ablative heat shields or some form of coolant for the terminal phase.
    If sustaining speed is the problem then they could use a massive solid rocket booster for the terminal stage.

    After all the Russians managed to get long range sea skimming supersonics working back in the 1970's.
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    Post  marcellogo Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    This particular project
    shows this by the removal of the CIWS since they will be rendered useless by hypersonic anti-ship missiles
    that NATzO may get in the near future.

    Pretty stupid to eliminate CIWS for a ship leaving it vulnerable to any low flying subsonic missile...

    There wont be any hypersonic sea skimming missiles...

    Oh man! Mad
    There is NOTHING like NATzO, HATO or Alliance Warships, CIWS, Guns or Missiles.
    Every big members (and even many small ones, just think about Denmark and NL) have their own proprietary designs, different one another's.

    Just think how our standard CIWS have a way bigger calibre than USN frigate-size vessels Main Gun, go figure...

    And naturally, they were designed specifically to engage supersonic AshM like the ones actually used by RuN.

    For the hypersonic ones, well you know, we have a saying:

    The Possible we already do,
    The Impossible, we try hard.
    For Miracles, we are already working on it...

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:25 am

    I disagree. They are actually modifying SM-6 to be used as a hypersonic AShM I expect it will probably be fielded in 12-24 months. Perhaps this is what you mean by aeroballistic but they are already testing an air breathing missile and doing integration flights with B-52.

    Yeah, American Fanboys have been saying they have mach 6 anti ship missiles for years to counter arguments about Soviet and then Russian supersonic anti ship missiles... the problem of course is that these high speed missiles they are talking about are SAMs and are not intended to sink ships... the ones they use in the anti ship role use nuclear warheads..., but the biggest problem is that when engaging ships they engage it like they engage aircraft they lead chase... they don't jink or dodge or come in vertically and therefore essentially they are as easy to shoot down as a Scud missile... and while Patriots struggle with that mission even S-300 missiles can manage that, and the new S-350s will be especially good at taking them down.

    Not to say they can't make a good missile, but right now they don't have one.

    The reason the Kinzhal is an excellent anti ship missile is because the missile it is based on is the Iskander and it was designed specifically to manouver to evade air defence systems around the target like Patriot and THAAD, so as an air launched anti ship missile they probably didn't have much to change.

    I am not too sure about that. There could be missiles that dive down and use ablative heat shields or some form of coolant for the terminal phase.

    Yeah, it is not totally about heat, but heat is certainly a factor, but a missile flying at mach 10 at 30km altitude... it can dive vertically but it needs to pull up within 10 seconds or it will be hitting the water... a missile flying at enormous speeds at very high altitudes is easy the air is thinner and colder so going really fast is easier, but once you dive down to the thicker warmer air at sea level you will find flying fast is not so easy... most highly supersonic planes are barely supersonic at sea level and that is for very good reasons...

    If a hypersonic missile gets to within 20km and then dives then you just shoot it down further away with something like S-350... once you have the tactics right and the upgraded missiles intended for the job of course... if it dives down further away than 20kms then it likely wont be going mach 10 when it reaches you.... more likely Mach 3-4 which most SAMs can already deal with.

    If sustaining speed is the problem then they could use a massive solid rocket booster for the terminal stage.

    Massive rockets like the rocket used on the supersonic two stage Klub missile... it manages Mach 2.9... which is likely very similar to what a scramjet would manage at the same height for any distance.

    After all the Russians managed to get long range sea skimming supersonics working back in the 1970's.

    Their fastest sea skimmer is about Mach 2.0 except the Klub model which has a terminal burst of Mach 2.9 with a solid rocket motor.

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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:49 am


    Mercury hull has been unceremoniously dumped outside

    They are either rearranging stuff inside before the put it back or they have gone full retard

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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:34 am

    Seriously, what's the rush. Do it right, or don't do it at all.

    They have always been Russian.... sorry... bad joke... I agree... no hurry... it is new stuff so when it is ready...
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    Post  owais.usmani Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:57 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    They are either rearranging stuff inside before the put it back or they have gone full retard


    They have probably moved it out to make space for other hulls, as inside it was just sitting idle. I would say they are waiting for ministry of defense to finalize the design changes and what to do with it, at which point they will move it back in to resume construction.
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    Post  lancelot Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:48 am

    A larger ship with more expensive engines and composite materials for an extra 3 knots speed vs Gremyashchiy.
    Same armament.

    I am not a big fan of this ship. I think it is the Russian LCS.
    Also reminds me of Zumwalt with its composite upper deck which Congress to cut back on expenses made the 3rd unit out of steel.

    It would be fine if this new design was somehow faster or cheaper to build than the older ships. But I doubt it.

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    Post  limb Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:56 am

    I agree. This ship adds absolutely nothing compared to what that a gorshkov or gremyashchiy could do. This ship is a garbage concept, and the building of it is similarly idotic, if its true that the MoD keeps changing requirements.

    They have always been Russian.... sorry... bad joke... I agree... no hurry... it is new stuff so when it is ready...
    It adds nothing new. Its just a light frigate with the same armament and sensors as the gremyashciy but a bit bigger and faster, and more of muh stealth which is of very limited usefulness in modern naval war.   I believe the first example will be ready for service around 2030-2032 after the MoD changes requirements a bazillion times and the retards at zvezda fail at producing marine diesels for another decade, and then the MoD will offer another zany new design, and it will change its requirements again 2-7 times , and this new supermercury will again be built in one or 2 examples for 10-15 years because muh 90s and zvezda being retards, and be obsolete before its put in state tests around 2050-2060.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:30 am

    Designers can make all sorts of calculations and project potential performance and capabilities, but at the end of the day you really only know what will actually work by building it.

    Technology only improves with practise... the first composite structures they made took months each to do, but they refined the process and soon it was a couple of days to make them.

    The first vehicle is always going to be the one they test the concept on, but even then with experience they can improve things quite radically to the point where the first one might be not so great, but what has been learned can refine the design and so the next ships can be much better and perhaps what the first one was supposed to be.

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    Post  lancelot Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:24 pm

    GarryB wrote:Designers can make all sorts of calculations and project potential performance and capabilities, but at the end of the day you really only know what will actually work by building it.

    Technology only improves with practise... the first composite structures they made took months each to do, but they refined the process and soon it was a couple of days to make them.

    The first vehicle is always going to be the one they test the concept on, but even then with experience they can improve things quite radically to the point where the first one might be not so great, but what has been learned can refine the design and so the next ships can be much better and perhaps what the first one was supposed to be.

    Sure, but if you look at the specifications that are available, it is supposed to use similar propulsion to the Admiral Gorshkov in number of and type of turbines. It is getting close to the displacement of the Admiral Gorshkov. Yet it has like a third of the VLS cells. Once Admiral Gorshkov gets updated i.e. Admiral Chichagov this 20386 will look even more anemic. And I also doubt it will have the same seamanship capabilities. I mean just look at it. Wtf is it with a "corvette" with 3400 tons displacement? Ridiculous.

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:10 pm

    And again.....people don't seem to understand this ship isn't designed to be a Gorv class or do that role.

    It is a modular support ship, designed to be capable of a wide array of missions that the gorv cannot accomplish.

    Everything I hear the old "but it doesn't pack a punch like the gorv class" is just the banter silly banter over and over.

    Get it through your skulls, the Gorv and this ship aren't meant to do the same jobs, so comparing them makes no dam sense.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:56 pm

    For what mission was it designed then ?

    Gorshkov, Steregushchy, Buyan/karakurt and all the coast guard ships can do any mission you can imagine.

    There is no point having the 20836 which is expensive for its class, carry just one container more than other ships (for calling it multirole) and is poorly armed.

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:17 am

    Isos wrote:For what mission was it designed then ? ...

    I have been hearing this same thing about Bykov-class OPV since it was first revealed as CGI promo and all the way up till now

    Fast froward to today

    Vasily Bykov last year spent 270 days in total out at sea

    This means that it was definitely doing something a has been doing it a lot so while you still don't know what it was designed for it was definitely something that needs to be done



    Isos wrote:Gorshkov, Steregushchy, Buyan/karakurt and all the coast guard ships can do any mission you can imagine. ...

    Gosrshkov can

    Others can't

    Steregushchy and Buyan/karakurt are all short range and short endurance

    Steregushi can't carry cruise missiles

    Buyans and Karakurts can't take out submarines or aircraft

    They all have shortcomings and yet all have a job to do



    Isos wrote:There is no point having the 20836 which is expensive for its class, carry just one container more than other ships (for calling it multirole) and is poorly armed.

    Bykov-class is even more poorly armed and yet they have it and are using it extensively

    Being heavily armed is not it's purpose plain and simple

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