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    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette

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    owais.usmani

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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:49 pm

    Apparently this is the current state as per a recent Zvezda video:

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    limb

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    Post  limb Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:28 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:Apparently this is the current state as per a recent Zvezda video:

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    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 18 17-93911

    Why so little progress in the last 5 years, especially since the weapons and most of the electronics are off the shelf?
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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:58 pm

    Apparently they need to make the superstructure which is a massive moulded composite structure so the moulds need too be made...bla bla bla. Then there is the turbine issue which is just getting resolved...
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:33 am

    limb wrote:Why so little progress in the last 5 years, especially since the weapons and most of the electronics are off the shelf?

    With the 22350 the delay was caused principally by (a) engine supply and (b) new weapons and sensors and battle management system that needed integrating and testing.  The ship itself wasn't the problem.

    With the 20386 the delay is the ship design and fabrication.  This ship is revolutionary for the Russian ship building industry (which is still in the process of being rebuilt following decades of neglect) and it won't happen overnight.  5 years seems reasonable to me considering the progress to date and the R&D cycle that was required.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:43 am

    Seriously, what's the rush. Do it right, or don't do it at all.

    It seems rather evident that various delays are not due to poverty but other factors such as redesign to use
    more advanced armaments and other things that would be called improvements. This particular project
    shows this by the removal of the CIWS since they will be rendered useless by hypersonic anti-ship missiles
    that NATzO may get in the near future.

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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:34 am


    ince they will be rendered useless by hypersonic anti-ship missiles that NATzO may get in the near future. wrote:


    NATO and the US will not have hypersonic missiles for a long time. Unless aerobalistic like Iskander Kindzal.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:10 pm

    They already ordered 10 Steregoushchy for the pacific fleet.

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    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:16 pm

    Isos wrote:They already ordered 10 Steregoushchy for the pacific fleet.

    Steregoushchy is an old design, lacks AESA and VLS on Gremyashchiy. Gremyashchiy is the only ship that can counter the growing Japanese menace against Kunashir and Iturup. Although in this case the mighty Chinese navy is able to relieve some pressure off Russia. China will not allow Japan to annex the southern Kurils considering the atrocities the Japanese did to the Chinese.
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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:08 pm

    Arrow wrote:



    NATO and the US will not have hypersonic missiles for a long time. Unless aerobalistic like Iskander Kindzal.

    I disagree. They are actually modifying SM-6 to be used as a hypersonic AShM I expect it will probably be fielded in 12-24 months. Perhaps this is what you mean by aeroballistic but they are already testing an air breathing missile and doing integration flights with B-52.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:44 pm

    Surely you don't believe that a missile designed as a SAM can be as effective in the AShM role as a purpose designed weapon?? SM-6 as an anti-surface weapon is just a stop-gap, and the US has a long and illustrious history of ignoring the need for effective long range AShMs. They won't make up for that legacy any time soon.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:00 am

    Rocket powered missiles are hypersonic for a few seconds when their motor burns. But then it slow down pretty fast.

    S-300 missiles have also mach 6 speed but at 500km away they would be runing at mach 0.5 and falling towards the water.

    US anti ship missiles need to have at least the same range as Ru/Chinese ones. SM 6 can't reach 1000 km at hypersonic speeds, neither at any speed for that matter.

    However having a SAM able to hit ships is very good for close range because they have a lot of them ready to launch and they are very fast. In a scenario of a ship shadowing another ship and war starts it gives you a big advantage of first strike.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:08 am

    This particular project
    shows this by the removal of the CIWS since they will be rendered useless by hypersonic anti-ship missiles
    that NATzO may get in the near future.

    Pretty stupid to eliminate CIWS for a ship leaving it vulnerable to any low flying subsonic missile...

    There wont be any hypersonic sea skimming missiles...
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    There wont be any hypersonic sea skimming missiles...

    I am not too sure about that. There could be missiles that dive down and use ablative heat shields or some form of coolant for the terminal phase.
    If sustaining speed is the problem then they could use a massive solid rocket booster for the terminal stage.

    After all the Russians managed to get long range sea skimming supersonics working back in the 1970's.
    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    This particular project
    shows this by the removal of the CIWS since they will be rendered useless by hypersonic anti-ship missiles
    that NATzO may get in the near future.

    Pretty stupid to eliminate CIWS for a ship leaving it vulnerable to any low flying subsonic missile...

    There wont be any hypersonic sea skimming missiles...

    Oh man! Mad
    There is NOTHING like NATzO, HATO or Alliance Warships, CIWS, Guns or Missiles.
    Every big members (and even many small ones, just think about Denmark and NL) have their own proprietary designs, different one another's.

    Just think how our standard CIWS have a way bigger calibre than USN frigate-size vessels Main Gun, go figure...

    And naturally, they were designed specifically to engage supersonic AshM like the ones actually used by RuN.

    For the hypersonic ones, well you know, we have a saying:

    The Possible we already do,
    The Impossible, we try hard.
    For Miracles, we are already working on it...

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:25 am

    I disagree. They are actually modifying SM-6 to be used as a hypersonic AShM I expect it will probably be fielded in 12-24 months. Perhaps this is what you mean by aeroballistic but they are already testing an air breathing missile and doing integration flights with B-52.

    Yeah, American Fanboys have been saying they have mach 6 anti ship missiles for years to counter arguments about Soviet and then Russian supersonic anti ship missiles... the problem of course is that these high speed missiles they are talking about are SAMs and are not intended to sink ships... the ones they use in the anti ship role use nuclear warheads..., but the biggest problem is that when engaging ships they engage it like they engage aircraft they lead chase... they don't jink or dodge or come in vertically and therefore essentially they are as easy to shoot down as a Scud missile... and while Patriots struggle with that mission even S-300 missiles can manage that, and the new S-350s will be especially good at taking them down.

    Not to say they can't make a good missile, but right now they don't have one.

    The reason the Kinzhal is an excellent anti ship missile is because the missile it is based on is the Iskander and it was designed specifically to manouver to evade air defence systems around the target like Patriot and THAAD, so as an air launched anti ship missile they probably didn't have much to change.

    I am not too sure about that. There could be missiles that dive down and use ablative heat shields or some form of coolant for the terminal phase.

    Yeah, it is not totally about heat, but heat is certainly a factor, but a missile flying at mach 10 at 30km altitude... it can dive vertically but it needs to pull up within 10 seconds or it will be hitting the water... a missile flying at enormous speeds at very high altitudes is easy the air is thinner and colder so going really fast is easier, but once you dive down to the thicker warmer air at sea level you will find flying fast is not so easy... most highly supersonic planes are barely supersonic at sea level and that is for very good reasons...

    If a hypersonic missile gets to within 20km and then dives then you just shoot it down further away with something like S-350... once you have the tactics right and the upgraded missiles intended for the job of course... if it dives down further away than 20kms then it likely wont be going mach 10 when it reaches you.... more likely Mach 3-4 which most SAMs can already deal with.

    If sustaining speed is the problem then they could use a massive solid rocket booster for the terminal stage.

    Massive rockets like the rocket used on the supersonic two stage Klub missile... it manages Mach 2.9... which is likely very similar to what a scramjet would manage at the same height for any distance.

    After all the Russians managed to get long range sea skimming supersonics working back in the 1970's.

    Their fastest sea skimmer is about Mach 2.0 except the Klub model which has a terminal burst of Mach 2.9 with a solid rocket motor.


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