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    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:13 pm

    20386 uses the same gas turbines engines as in Gorshkov with also some electric motors if I am not mistaken.

    The engines in 11356 are not produced from Saturn, but only from Zorya Mashproekt in Nikolaev (and are anyway one generation older then the new engines, so Russia did not invest in their production).

    It took a lot of negotiation from India to get the engines to finish the 11356 in construction and Russia will not get any for themselves...

    Adapting 11356 to different engines is not easy or cheap or something that can be done straight away.

    Anyway the reason 11356 are cheaper than "new" ships is because they have most of the sensors, radar, sonar and weapon systems from the 90s...

    If they wanted to upgrade them to have the modern systems in 20380 and 22350 the cost will increase considerably

    It is much faster to start building additional 22350 in other shipyards.

    I understand that they are still capable ships (even if a bit outdated) and they could be still of interest for export... but the only way for Russia to build further 11356 is if Nikolaev will join Russia (before the sumerians manage to destroy also Zorya Mashproekt and its supply chain)...


    As far as 20386, the prices seen in the forum seems to be high in comparison to 22350 and to 22380.. maybe some of the info are not fully correct

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr on Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:42 pm

    So the wiki on this seems to indicate COGAG power but also mentions 2200 HP electric drive. Will this allow the ship to cruise 5-10 knots on diesel gensets? Very interested in Russian marine propulsion as they are certainly in major catch up mode esp considering the Soviet center of excellence for Naval turbines was in Ukraine (I guess they will be stamping out pots/pans and horseshoes there now lol)

    Ship propulsion seems to be headed towards electric drive for many good reasons.


    Hmm found this interesting bit about the electric motors, seems they are mini azipods:

    The ship would feature two gas-turbine engines with elements of a next-generation electric motor. This refers to modifying the ship using Azipod units. The device sits in a special capsule attached to the ship’s hull. It features an additional electric motor and a propeller that steers the ship in any direction. In fact, it means the ship can move both bow- and sternwards. This means the multi-ton monster can be deployed at the drop of a hat. It’s a new element that increases the maneuverability of the ship.


    And this:

    The new CODELAG propulsion system includes two M-90FR gas turbines and two ADR-1600-8 asynchronous electric motors connected by a reduction gear and working on two adjustable screws. Four diesel generators will provide electricity to power the main propulsion engines. It will be the most complicated plant of an offshore warship designed and built in Russia after the collapse of the USSR.

    Seems like they are investing a large amount of $$ on this unique ship, but I think they need a quick way to test out come concepts for the 22350M and make some decisions in this regard to de-risk that project. Those will be crazy expesive ships.


    Last edited by mnztr on Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:48 pm

    mnztr wrote:So the wiki on this seems to indicate COGAG power but also mentions 2200 HP electric drive. Will this allow the ship to cruise 5-10 knots on diesel gensets? Very interested in Russian marine propulsion as they are certainly in major catch up mode esp considering the Soviet center of excellence for Naval turbines was in Ukraine (I guess they will be stamping out pots/pans and horseshoes there now lol)

    Ship propulsion seems to be headed towards electric drive for many good reasons.
    possibly, but you still need something to generate electricity.

    At the moment the existing options are diesel engines, gas turbine engines, steam turbine engines and nuclear (usually also associated with steam turbines).
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    Post  mnztr on Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:00 pm

    Great article on this ship as a whole. 30B RUB wow. Is this the new "golden fish"? that said, if the USN built it it would be a min USD 1.5B.

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/20386.htm
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:22 pm

    mnztr wrote:Great article on this ship as a whole. 30B RUB wow. Is this the new "golden fish"? that said, if the USN built it it would be a min USD 1.5B.

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/20386.htm

    And they listed the reasons why it's expensive

    Also about this:

    Thus, with the money that the fleet wants to spend on ten ships of project 20386, you can build twenty ships of project 20380....

    But why stop there? I'm sure that they could build 40 Tarantul-class ships for that price

    Or perhaps they could go even further back in time and build 80 Osa-class ships

    And if we go back to WW2 era that number could easily pass triple digit

    Outstanding logic there by the author... Rolling Eyes


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    Post  mnztr on Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:36 pm

    I think the only reason it is very expensive is there is a ton of new technology in it and they only ordered one unit. All the moulds for the superstructure need to be created, propulsion needs to be sorted and tested. If the RUN were to place an order for a batch of 5 ships I bet the price would be almost half for the subsequent ships.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:32 pm

    mnztr wrote:I think the only reason it is very expensive is there is a ton of new technology in it and they only ordered one unit. All the moulds for the superstructure need to be created, propulsion needs to be sorted and tested. If the RUN were to place an order for a batch of 5 ships I bet the price would be almost half for the subsequent ships.
    Possibly, anyway they want first to test the pilot ship and then they will decide.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:19 am

    But why stop there? I'm sure that they could build 40 Tarantul-class ships for that price

    Or perhaps they could go even further back in time and build 80 Osa-class ships

    And if we go back to WW2 era that number could easily pass triple digit

    Outstanding logic there by the author...

    Well the point is that it is about value for money rather than just the price.

    If they can learn a lot about electric pod mounted motors and screws and can apply that new technology to pretty much all the ships in their fleet then the value in reducing the number of tugs you need alone becomes worth it.

    The Army can't save money stopping production of Armatas and restarting production of T-34s because making T-34s today wont be as cheap as it was then anyway... they could certainly make a super powerful T-34 these days but really not good enough to be actually useful.

    It makes sense to upgrade existing vessels so they become more useful but making brand new should only be brand new designs even if it costs more.

    Testing new technology on a separate vessel means if it does not work they can rip it out and try something else... they are not and have not committed themselves to mass production of this design yet.... unlike the Ford class and the Zumwalt and the LCS, or for that matter the F-35 etc etc.
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    Post  mnztr on Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:01 am

    Yup I can see variants of this propulsion system being used on many of their ships, it was actually used in the Type 23 frigate so its not exactly ground breaking dating back to 1987. I was a young man then!! lol.
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    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 17 Empty Changes to Project 20386: superstructure shortened to accommodate offensive VLS.

    Post  BenVaserlan on Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:33 pm

    Details in the video I made.

    From my video description: The hull of Stealth Corvette Project 20386 has not been lengthened. Instead, the superstructure has been shortened and the Redut VLS SAM system moved slightly forward towards the bow.  Information is also given on the project as a whole.

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    Post  LMFS on Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:47 pm

    BenVaserlan wrote:Details in the video I made.

    From my video description: The hull of Stealth Corvette Project 20386 has not been lengthened. Instead, the superstructure has been shortened and the Redut VLS SAM system moved slightly forward towards the bow.  Information is also given on the project as a whole.

    The superstructure may be minimally shorter because now the space for the Urans is not needed. I think it is fairly evident the hull is substantially longer, but that is just mu opinion dunno
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:31 am

    Bit of a claim to suggest the Russians are copying anything to do with Zumwalt... Zumwalt is a dog.

    In terms of layout they could be argued that they are similar but only in the sense that most modern tanks are similar too... driver, turret with gunner and commander and sometimes loader and the engine to the rear...

    This corvette (which you are comparing with a destroyer in the zumwalt) has a front deck like 99.9% of all other corvettes, then a box structure and a flat rear for helicopter operations... hardly unique.

    To be fair I would say this corvette design with its gun and UKSK launchers on the front deck is probably better armed and equipped than the US failed destroyer.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:29 pm

    So have they decided to give the mercury a decent offensive missile armament of 2x UKSK VLS cells?

    If this is the case then these will be terrifying opponents for even enemy destroyers. It would be brilliant to just be able to deploy ten or so corvettes to the pacific fleet to sink all of thoes primitive destroyers the japs keep making.
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen on Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:06 pm

    Any update on Mercury class construction status?
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    Post  BenVaserlan on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:Bit of a claim to suggest the Russians are copying anything to do with Zumwalt... Zumwalt is a dog.

    In terms of layout they could be argued that they are similar but only in the sense that most modern tanks are similar too... driver, turret with gunner and commander and sometimes loader and the engine to the rear...

    This corvette (which you are comparing with a destroyer in the zumwalt) has a front deck like 99.9% of all other corvettes, then a box structure and a flat rear for helicopter operations... hardly unique.

    To be fair I would say this corvette design with its gun and UKSK launchers on the front deck is probably better armed and equipped than the US failed destroyer.

    Just 'inspired'. Inspired to do it right after seeing the failure of the Zumwalt.

    Anything that can fire Tsirkons is to be deeply respected.
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    Post  BenVaserlan on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:28 pm

    Tai Hai Chen wrote:Any update on Mercury class construction status?
    I've read that it was due to be launched around 2022.
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    Post  BenVaserlan on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:33 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:So have they decided to give the mercury a decent offensive missile armament of 2x UKSK VLS cells?
    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 17 2_2_co10

    Yep; see the area i highlighted in the lower graphic. Smile  It's in the video posted 7 posts up.


    Last edited by BenVaserlan on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  George1 on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:45 pm

    Very nice. Maybe this was the reason for the delay of the projects. Some adjustments on his weapon systems
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    Post  BenVaserlan on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:52 pm

    BenVaserlan wrote:Details in the video I made.

    From my video description: The hull of Stealth Corvette Project 20386 has not been lengthened. Instead, the superstructure has been shortened and the Redut VLS SAM system moved slightly forward towards the bow.  Information is also given on the project as a whole.


    I took some information from this video when it was originally up. Now it has been reposted.

    https://youtu.be/6k0lHWQMujI Title: "Episode 194. Corvettes. The golden mean of Russian Fleet"

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:02 am


    Just 'inspired'. Inspired to do it right after seeing the failure of the Zumwalt.

    I love the irony of you suggesting that because the US attempts to be ground breaking with litteral warfare ships instead of frigates also ended in disaster with expensive boats that are pretty much not much use for anything and their solution out of that total fuckup was to buy the EU equivalent of the Gorshkov frigate... so one could probably argue that Russian designers have nothing to learn in terms of what should be done... a few things they can plainly see you should never do, but they seem to be obvious to everyone anyway, but it is the US that is doing what the Russians are doing... Gorshkov like Frigates... instead of LCS... and of course putting F-15s back into production because Stealth is so expensive and not always necessary so having non stealthy but better performing aircraft actually makes sense...

    Russia can learn from America if they want to learn how to waste a lot of money.... but any 5 year old can do that... it is not a valuable skill... in fact if there was actual accountability in the US it would be a skill across the board that would be beaten out of the US MIC... but they don't care and so it continues...

    They don't care because they want those companies to be rich so they can get cushy liason jobs when they retire... getting paid a million a year to have power lunches with all the people you hired in your place when you left your job... using your connections and knowledge of the system to get jobs no one else is going to even know are up for tender... that is how it works and it works fine for those on the gravy train.

    Anything that can fire Tsirkons is to be deeply respected.

    Even Onyx is a real threat... without upgraded fuel and materials.

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    BenVaserlan
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    Post  BenVaserlan Yesterday at 12:43 pm

    GarryB wrote: They don't care because they want those companies to be rich so they can get cushy liason jobs when they retire... getting paid a million a year to have power lunches with all the people you hired in your place when you left your job... using your connections and knowledge of the system to get jobs no one else is going to even know are up for tender... that is how it works and it works fine for those on the gravy train.

    I agree with you especially here. An earlier draft of Eisenhower's MIC speech used the phrase "Military-Industrial-Congressional complex".  I also suspect a major reason NATO exists is to provide customers to the US defense industry. Also, the reason the F-35 is so bad is that it's just good enough not to get canceled. All those foreign sales and a way to control aliies via the ALIS network.

    back on topic, what i said about 'inspired' was just a way to link the two images together. It has been speculated that the Zumwalt cruisers (i call those that based on their displacement) are top-heavy and unstable.
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    Post  mnztr Yesterday at 6:18 pm

    What most people are not aware of is the US has 2 MICs. The Military Industrial Complex and the Medical Industrial Complex. Both are in the "Money or your life" business.
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    Post  JohninMK Yesterday at 7:04 pm

    mnztr wrote:What most people are not aware of is the US has 2 MICs. The Military Industrial Complex and the Medical Industrial Complex. Both are in the "Money or your life" business.

    Arguably, if you include the insurance element, the second is the more profitable.
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    Post  Hole Yesterday at 9:04 pm

    And kills more people.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Today at 5:43 am

    Also, the reason the F-35 is so bad is that it's just good enough not to get canceled.

    The C-17 was the model and it was perfect.

    Normal business practise is to try to centralise and localise production... sending parts all over the place increases costs and creates delays and problems...

    But C-17 design is look at which senators are decision makers and have powers to allocate funding for pentagon orders and programmes.

    Build all the factories making parts in the constituencies of these senators so cancelling the programme means job losses in places that vote or don't vote for them...

    The result is that factories are built where no aircraft factory has ever been built before, and it got to the point where the Pentagon didn't even bother asking for more C-17s in their budget requests... those senators just added more airframes onto and new budget...

    In terms of getting planes it was brilliant and hugely successful.... as an aircraft programme all that distance and space and all those parts suppliers all over the country made it the most expensive transport plane ever designed and that includes competition with much much heavier and more capable transports.

    With the F-35 the same design principle was applied but expanded to include allies... Turkey was building parts for the wing for instance.

    The pitch sounds great... a new unified light fighter design to replace every existing light and medium fighter. It will be cheap because it will be a single engined fighter like an F-16 that because it will replace everything then it will be made in enormous numbers... 3,500 to start with....

    A few changes and it would be fine... ie OK but not great... but it is way too expensive for what it is... and the US probably could not save it... because the people there that make planes like the money they get from it now... plus it looks cool in video games and movies... so who cares?

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