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    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette

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    Mindstorm

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    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:05 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:What you are describing is a dumb submarine captain.

    Any Sub captain worth his salt will be well submerged when he makes his attack by the time the ships do manage to locate them IF they even can.


    :shock:Well Submerged ? Obviously it will be "well submerged" when it will attack surrending momentarily its position Razz and what that should mean ?

    The point here (the "smartness" of the captain) is WHEN choose to attack and WHAT.

    A typical western nation submarine captain as proved by our monitoring of theirs training procedures, exercise and behaviour in actual operations would be to attack the easily detectable surface units that are in the process to deploy the sonobuoys network, toghether with helicopters, in its area of operation so to interrupt the formation of the potential sonobuoy barrier.

    This typical action that can very likely cost this "aggressive" "proactive" captain (bad characteristics so exalted in western warfare ideology) the hull of its submarine with all the on-board crew's lives against an enemy with Federation's level and kind of ASW weapons, originate simply from the fact that western submarine units train with......western submarines and western ship aided by western ASW aircraft the unique weapons with which they are capable to engage him are classical torpedos .

    This mean that the typical western commanding official on board a western submarine is trained, from its graduation up to the end of its carreer, through dozen of ASW exercises, that its torpedo attack will not expose him to any risk for a variable called TIME .

    The brief contacts it will cause while delivering its torpedos likely surrending momentarily its position will not allow the ASW ships ,aircraft or submarine armed with classical torpedo to get any chance to engage it before its would be long escaped far and anywhere from this area, ready to prepare another attack.

    Those authomatisms and operational assumptions crumble entirely into nothingness when weapons systems with more than an order of magnitude greater speed and about 1/6 of the reaction time are involved.

    Therefore ,when i had exposed the second hypothesis, i had defined the officier at command of this submarine as very smart ; in that situation a behaviour similar to that previously described would be an exception not the rule among western captains.



    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The sub will go to a depth where munitions like 91RE1 and 90R cannot reach,

    Shocked Do you have the most pale idea of what you talk about ?

    Do you think that ANY western submarine can even only by far close the depth engagement limit of an АПР-3М (more than 800 m !)

    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 12 Priminenie-91re2

    Oh please Razz


    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    fast projectile will only matter IF they somehow catch the submarine out of position which would be very unlikely a submarine will always know you are around before you know they are around.


    Out of position ? What is out of position ?

    Sumbmarines have simply a position in a precise instant; those weapons to the exact contrary of classical torpedos don't leave it any chance to egress from the area even with a brief, transient contact.





    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:36 pm

    533cm torps? The reason other frigates don't carry those is because, it's completely unessecary. Smaller torps are faster and will sink any submarine.

    The reason that western frigates don't carry them is because they are big and heavy and not cheap... and western 21 inch torpedoes are very expensive.

    533mm torpedoes have much longer range and much heavier warheads than small calibre torpedoes.

    533mm torpedoes can be used against ships as well as submarines effectively too.

    The Russians and the Soviets before them had a range of small calibre torpedoes... they had the option and chose the bigger, longer ranged, more effective weapon.

    The launch tubes are standard so if they wanted to they could load SS-N-15 or Club missiles in those tubes if they wanted too.

    Bigger isn't better dude, you should know better by now.

    When it comes to torpedoes it actually does imply longer range and better warhead...

    An RBU? Lol that's another piece of technology that is pointless. No other navies bother with those because the ship has torpedos and Choppers for ASW.

    Of course... the west doesn't use those so it must be useless.

    RBUs are very versatile and come with a fairly wide range of ammunition including guided rockets. For a ship like a frigate it is actually a very valuable system that can be used against divers in the water as well as incoming enemy torpedoes and submarines as well as small submersibles and unmanned under water vessels too... but the west don't use them so it must be useless right?

    Putting a pointless feature on a ship doesn't make it good.

    Calling a useful feature pointless doesn't make it pointless.

    Shtill is also very short-range and have other faults, I don't know why people insist on fanboying over this class.

    Yeah, 90km range for the current model BUK-M3 is not the best range in the world but it is pretty good for a frigate and it can intercept a fairly wide range of targets too.

    You are right about one thing it is cost-effective because it's made up of mostly old technology that doesn't cut it anymore.

    I keep hearing western experts say this... which US small calibre torpedo is better than a Russian 533mm one?

    Which US system to defend their ship from divers and torpedos and subs is better than RBU of any model?

    Which western frigate of any design has better weapons?

    RBU can also destroy a submarine or mines fields.

    It can also be used against Divers in the water and includes sonar equipment and is remotely operated... meaning 24/7 day night and all weather capacity to engage targets in the water...

    Shtill has a 45km range, that's the range of modern radars against low flying missiles. As soon as they see the anti ship missile it can target it with an air defence missile at max range.

    That is BUK-M2, or the naval equivalent of the SA-17. Ie the model the Russian ground forces have in service but are now replacing with the tube launched M3 model with longer range and better performance. (The SA-11 is the model Ukrainian forces used to shoot down an airliner over the Ukraine a while back...)

    Being more cost effective you can buy 2 for one nato frigate.

    Especially if you don't play chicken with civilian ships and end up running aground and sinking...

    The sub will go to a depth where munitions like 91RE1 and 90R cannot reach, fast projectile will only matter IF they somehow catch the submarine out of position which would be very unlikely a submarine will always know you are around before you know they are around.

    The APR-3ME is a good representation of the small torpedo payload of the rocket powered 91RE1 and the Medvedka ballistic rockets that deliver torpedos to targets... and it can engage targets down to 800m depth.... this smart submarine captain you say will go to a depth where these weapons wont reach is going to kill his own crew by going well below the crush depth of any standard SSN I have ever heard of...

    Mark 48's are smaller than the Kalibes that go in those tubes, though the kalibers are faster they have a much shorter range due to the fact they have to burn tons of fuel.

    The 91ER1 moves at mach 2.5 on a ballistic trajectory out to 50km in the export model.

    A sub target that locates the Russian ships and launches torpedoes will give away their location through launching their torpedoes... the 91ER1 will reach the location the torpedo was launched from much faster than that torpedo can cover a small fraction of the distance to the target.

    These missiles will not threaten a submarine unless said submarine gets way to close.

    The 91ER1 threatens any sub within a circle 100km around any ship or sub armed with a UKSK launcher.

    I wasn't counting cruise missiles but alias they do not have a longer range in the water , so when you say longer range that's a very very big lie.

    Current land attack cruise missiles have a range of 2,500km, the subsonic and supersonic anti ship versions should have ranges of 2,000km and 1,500km respectively, because they are basically the same missile with the extra mass of a nose mounted radar to find a ship target.

    In terms of being fired at by Torpedos that is a problem, all navies have a hard dealing with the RBU series of weapons that have a very low intercept rate. So not sure why you are bringing this up, it's a pointless statement.

    RBU have a broad range of ammo types for a range of different roles, from guided depth charge (ie noise seeking depth charge), through to surface mine that reacts to objects near it in the water (for divers and torpedos) as well as decoy and noise maker models (torpedo defence).

    or maybe you are ignorant enough to think RBU's have some amazing intercept rate they don't, idk there.

    RBu's could sink a submarine but the munitions depth they fire is at most 1k.

    You clearly have expert knowledge on their ability and performance... perhaps enough said.

    So the submarine captain would need to be one dumb fuck to get hit by that, again you don't understand the weapons you are ranting about.

    A bit like saying a bullet proof vest is pointless because when the enemy see you have one they will just shoot you in the head... so why wear those heavy awkward things... right?

    Well it has a 50km range not 45, also when intercepting other missiles you need at least 2 missiles per one trying to intercept so in reality, the system can only make at most 12 intercept attempts.

    No it doesn't. Tests have shown the new BUK is much more accurate than the S-300, so two missiles would not be needed for every target... a second missile would be used only if needed... and most of the time it wont.


    Also the chances it will be allowed to intercept from max range is very low assuming it spots the missile before it even enters max range which is a huge IF at best., if you knew anything about missile interception which clearly you don't. You'd know max range isn't an effective intercept range.

    If you know so much you must also know these vessels are part of an air defence network that shares target information... a missile that has an effective range of 50km doesn't mean it can only actually hit targets much closer because it has to wait for the target to reach 50km before it can launch.

    The 50km range of the BUK M2 is the range at which it can intercept targets to. In the real world it could probably hit low flying targets at 55km, but probably not high flying targets at that range.

    For the Shtill it's effective intercept range would be much shorter than that, it's a shitty air defense system that was put on because it was cheap and easy. It's a goddam EXPORT LAUNCHER. So go on put Shtill's on your ships, and enjoy that piss poor air defense they offer.

    Shtil is an Army area defence SAM, that is perfectly capable. The current models are even better.

    Depends on the Nato frigate some carry eight others carry more, get your information in order.

    Big deal... 8 subsonic anti ship missiles is pathetic even for a Corvette and their Frigates are armed that way?


    No, the ship isn't "very good" it only takes someone with an idea of naval knowledge to look at the thing and know it's bad for the times.

    If you can find such a person please get him to log on here and we can put him right too.

    There is no kalibr in the tube bu type 53 torpedoes.

    After Mindstorms post I think he is confusing 91ER1 with Kalibr.

    For export it is part of the Club family I suppose... all a bit confusing, but Mindstorm is correct, a frigate is more likely to carry a 91ER1 than an actual torpedo.

    Type 53 has 50km range and more for newest variants.

    91ER1 has a 50km ballistic range at mach 2.5 and then a small calibre torpedo starts its attack from there...

    But the main goal of the rbu is to destroy torpedoes.

    And divers or trained dolphins if it comes to that in ports and closed in areas...

    The thing is that for pro US fanboys if a russian ship can't go alone against a carrier group and win then it sucks.

    x2... unrealistic expectations... and fanboy mentality... if it isn't the best the it is the worst...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:14 pm

    After Mindstorms post I think he is confusing 91ER1 with Kalibr.

    For export it is part of the Club family I suppose... all a bit confusing, but Mindstorm is correct, a frigate is more likely to carry a 91ER1 than an actual torpedo.

    I never saw any official or respactable source saying the torpedo tube on Grigorovitch can launch kalibr missiles.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:34 pm

    The export Club family... the subsonic long range land attack missile (3M14), the subsonic anti ship missile and the subsonic anti ship missile with the rocket section that traverses the last two dozen kms at mach 3 in rocket power mode (3M54), and the anti sub ballistic rocket that delivers a torpedo (91ER1) are all part of the Club family for export, and also the domestic models are commonly called Kalibr...
    ...they are all 533mm calibre weapons that can be launched from torpedo tubes (ie kilo class subs etc)

    And for quite some time the only way to launch them was via 533mm torpedo tube.

    The UKSK was designed to carry and launch all of them as well as the much larger calibre Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos at about 750mm calibre.

    The new model 5,000km range cruise missiles they are talking about developing for the navy are mainly possible because the UKSK launch tubes can take 3 ton 750mm calibre 10 metre long supersonic anti ship missiles, so new models of Kalibr that better fill the available space can have a lot more fuel space... though they wont be compatible with torpedo tubes... that really doesn't matter as they can keep making their older weapons too.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:36 pm

    The torpedo tubes on ships are basically the same as ones on subs and can load the same ammo if required.
    Dima
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    Post  Dima on Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:41 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 12 Xf77s

    And what's currently below the RBU-6000 and 3S-90?

    VLS tubes take up a lot of vertical room.
    Not sure as to what all exactly is underneath RBU-6000, but if at all anything major, it must be related to the RBU-6000 itself. 3S90A part has already been done.
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    Dima
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    Post  Dima on Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:59 pm

    hoom wrote:I agree that 20386 is under-armed for its size.
    But its got a lot of growth potential through new modular containerised systems.
    The problem is that the basic armament isn't good for its size & the modular systems are at least partially mutually exclusive.
    I don't know where it has got growth potential? In which area?

    I believe 11356 can bear a bit of an upgrade but to say its got a lot of growth potential is kinda barmy.
    Grigorovich is the 6th major rework/optimisation of the 1950s Krivak design.
    Let me point out the growth potential once again.
    1) Primary offensive armament (additional 8-cell VLS)
    2) Air-defence (VLS)
    3) Sensor/Radar mast (integrated mast)

    4) Additional offensive armament
    5) Air-defence (close/short range)

    Even 22350 cannot claim to have such a growth potential, simply coz it's an optimised design. The beauty of 11356 is - its not yet optimised and hence presents us with lots of room for optimisation (growth potential) as mentioned above.

    A max config would be something like the Shtil-1 VLS bumped up to 36 as in the original display model, replace the RBU with a 2nd 8-cell UKSK & put Pantsir-Ms on the hangar sides (first batch of Talwars had Kashtans).
    Yes. And that makes it on the level of 22350
    1) 16 x UKSK
    2) 36 x 9M317ME
    3) 2 x Kashtan

    In addition to the above - on the same ship.
    1) a new integrated mast - this frees up entire amidship
    which allows us to install -
    2) Additional 24 x Kh-35UE launchers or atleast 64 x 9M317ME inclined launchers amidship

    We must realise that not every strike needs long rangers like Kaliber or silver bullets like Yakhonts. There are more than enough scope for employing much more cheaper 260Km range Kh-35UE with 100Kg warhead. Syria, Libya, Yemen etc comes to mind very often.

    But when you're proposing a major propulsion & radar change as well you might as well just build more 22350s.
    I mentioned major propulsion change for new builds, well within the reach of the designers. We need not run down their engineering prowess. Same for a new integrated mast on top.

    The only reason that I can see the Russians not going into replacing the Ukrainian powerplant on 11356 with a Russian COGAG (M70FR + M90FR) combo is because, they already had 22350 in hand and didn't want to invest money on modifying already built 11356, even though there was a plan. But if India or any other foreign customer had specifically asked for a Russian COGAG or CODAG (10D49 + M90FR), Russia would have done it, coz it involved customers funding.

    Btw, 22350 is not happening, so building more 22350 is out of question. As far as I can read the situation, 22350 as we see it now - as a 4,500t frigate to replace the 11356, is over!
    20386 to replace the 11356 says a lot in itself.

    I think a more realistic (relatively cheap & easy) upgrade would be adding the 2nd UKSK module + Ghibkas on hangar sides (additional to the AK-630s), maybe a 3rd between the UKSKs & bridge.
    The point is to get some cheap, moderately capable ships out quickly.
    Russian navy currently have 3 x 11356 and they will need to be upgraded in the future. So all these upgradation can be done and make it as capable as the 22350 which will see Russian Navy to have very capable 9 x multi-role frigates.

    Yes 9 x frigates - 3 x 11356 + 6 x 22350. I'm not buying any theory of more 22350 coming, untill I see it. Its over for 22350.
    Dima
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    Post  Dima on Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:38 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Dima wrote:
    Project 22350 in its current size is finished unless export orders pop up. Probably the shortest a new Russian ship design has lasted. The same fate awaits the 20386, sooner or later they will realise its wasn't worth and will look for a new deign.

    We shall see I have heard talk of both being built, but it does not make sense to have the standard one when the M can carry so much more firepower with the same sensors and electronics for a small amount more.
    From the way it is moving, I can clearly see the drift. Let me explain.

    22350
    - As it is, was to fill the slots that 1135 had in the Soviet Navy (around 40 ships in total) and replace/halt the interim solution of 11356 once fully in serial production.
    - But neither did it come on time nor in numbers to make any difference.

    - In the meantime a new design - 20386 - is promoted and, to be built in the same & only yard that is building 20380, 20385, 22350
    - Now we hear 20386 will replace 11356
    - now what does that mean?
    - it simply doesn't mean it will replace 11356, it also means it will also replace the original replacement for 11356, i.e 22350.

    It is with these in mind we need to see the new 22350M class, supposedly a 8,000t destroyer.
    - 22350M will be replacing the 1155 and 956.

    From the drift I can see, this is how its going -  20356 (Frigates) - 22350M (Destroyers) - 23560 (Cruisers)
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:51 pm

    Dima wrote:...20386...- it simply doesn't mean it will replace 11356, it also means it will also replace the original replacement for 11356, i.e 22350.

    No it doesn't

    22350 was never replacement for 11356 but 11356 was just a quick fix until 22350 went into serial production

    11356 is finished, 22350 will be getting build as default platform


    Dima wrote:...From the drift I can see, this is how its going - 20356 (Frigates) - 22350M (Destroyers) - 23560 (Cruisers)

    20356 will be built in smaller series because doctrine no longer revolves around corvettes

    22350 is built as standard frigate and 22350M takes the spot of destroyers in smaller numbers

    23560 is vaporware and it's not being built, not now, not ever (whole thing was a joke by design studio anyway, some weeb there had too much time on his hands)



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    Post  Isos on Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:27 pm

    23560 is vaporware and it's not being built, not now, not ever (whole thing was a joke by design studio anyway, some weeb there had too much time on his hands)

    They officially stated they want a Lider class as a nuclear cruiser. They will build one because the Slava won't be upgraded and from the 4 kirov they have only two left being modernized so they have one ready only.

    The design they showed was nothing more than an ad from a design bureau to show what thech they can use and how to implement it (VLS, integrated mast with with huge radars, conventional shapes ...). That doesn't mean they won't build a new class of cruiser.

    Russians want their navy to be balanced btw corvettes, frigates and destroyer/cruisers. Gorshkov and Gorshkov M aren't going to replace a kirov or a slava.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:55 pm

    Isos wrote:
    23560 is vaporware and it's not being built, not now, not ever (whole thing was a joke by design studio anyway, some weeb there had too much time on his hands)

    They officially stated they want a Lider class as a nuclear cruiser. They will build one because the Slava won't be upgraded and from the 4 kirov they have only two left being modernized so they have one ready only.

    The design they showed was nothing more than an ad from a design bureau to show what thech they can use and how to implement it (VLS, integrated mast with with huge radars, conventional shapes ...). That doesn't mean they won't build a new class of cruiser.  

    Russians want their navy to be balanced btw corvettes, frigates and destroyer/cruisers. Gorshkov and Gorshkov M aren't going to replace a kirov or a slava.
    gorshkov m will be offering superior characteristics compared to a modernized Slava, but, will of course be less powerful in comparison with a fully modern 12ktons cruiser (Slava displacement), like the new Chinese and South Korean ships.

    I believe they will build the new nuclear powered cruisers/destroyers, but most probably the design is still work in progress, and will not be the same as the anime destroyer presented a few years ago during a naval show.

    Concerning 22350, the shipyards capable of building 11356 (Yantar, baltic and admiralty shipyard in saint Petersburg and Zaliv in Crimea) can also build 22350 (of course depending on their different orders and utilisation) so I do not understand the need of building two different class of frigates at the same time, especially now that finally the development problems of 22350 are finished.

    I agree that Severnaya verf should concentrate only on larger frigates (and destroyers) (aparts from the civilian orders like trawlers,etc, that should continue) and once completed the 20385 and 20386 in construction only lay down gorshkov 22350 and Gorshkov M.

    Baltic shipyard has the capability of building frigates and destroyers, but it is probably better suited for building nuclear cruisers, since it is also there where all the Kirov battlecruisers were built. It is however building the large nuclear icebreakers (22220 class) and the last ship should be delivered in 2026, so I do not know about the current availability of the shipyard. It is possible that by the moment that the leader nuclear cruiser design is ready the icebreakers will have already be launched, having so freed the construction area.

    Again 20386 is not going to replace 22350, and it could be built in other yards (Amur and Pella, as an example)
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    Post  Dima on Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:10 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:No it doesn't

    22350 was never replacement for 11356 but 11356 was just a quick fix until 22350 went into serial production

    11356 is finished, 22350 will be getting build as default platform
    Fixed it for you....
    20386...- it simply doesn't mean it will replace 11356, it also means it will also replace the original replacement for 1135/6, i.e 22350.

    I will be here to see new orders for 22350.
    In the meantime do pray that the last two 22350 with 24-cell VLS dont get cancelled. Chances of cancelling are low, coz its Severnya Verf, the most incompetent and corrupt yard, who is building it.

    Actually the whole of Russian Navy's new capital warships are being built by a single yard in Russia.
    Perfect example of - All eggs in one basket. Its a disaster in the making.

    20356 will be built in smaller series because doctrine no longer revolves around corvettes

    22350 is built as standard frigate and 22350M takes the spot of destroyers in smaller numbers

    23560 is vaporware and it's not being built, not now, not ever (whole thing was a joke by design studio anyway, some weeb there had too much time on his hands)
    Wait and watch  Wink

    20356 will be built in smaller series because doctrine no longer revolves around corvettes
    You dont have to copy my typo error as well -  I typed 20386 as 20356  Wink

    What did you just say? 20386 in small quantities ?  Laughing
    Thats exactly the point I was making two pages back - that Russians will soon realise that 20386 is not worth the effort and they will soon be looking for a new design.

    22350 is built as standard frigate and 22350M takes the spot of destroyers in smaller numbers
    Seeing is believing. I will believe it when more orders are placed. For now it is just 2 + 2 more ships for a total of 6 ships.
    The lowest any Russian ship design has lasted.

    23560 is vaporware and it's not being built, not now, not ever (whole thing was a joke by design studio anyway, some weeb there had too much time on his hands)
    Project number can change, you do not have to stick on to it. But cruisers are given.
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    Post  Dima on Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:38 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Dima wrote:
    Mind that, the above stuff will make 11356 comparable to the current 22350 class or even better in terms of weaponry it can carry!
    Now, that presents another question - is it why 11356 design is not getting upgraded?

    I think you answered your own question. They will just ramp up 22350 and 22350M and put this ship below the 22350. The 22350 is a more modern platform and has already been through the looooooooong and painful integration and test phase.
    There are few issues here - two of them being - the ship itself and the yard where its successor is being built.

    So again let me ask - who is/was to loose with a modernised/optimised 11356 which is comparable to 22350?
    Certainly not the Russian Navy who would be getting good powerful frigates. Then who?
    The obvious looser is the yard that is/was suppose to built those new warships. And there is only a single yard in the whole of Russia that is contracted to built the 22350.

    I will leave it at that.


    Regarding 22350 itself -  ramping up production of 22350 is just wishful thinking. Not going to happen unless current monopoly is broken. And this monopoly need to be broken at any cost for the well being of Russian Navy.

    Project 22350 - The earliest I saw/heard about it was when it popped up in 2003-2004 as a destroyer displacing around 8,000t in a very beautiful silhouette.

    But down the years, finally when it was "revealed" it got trimmed down to a 4,000-4,500t frigate - either coz of Geopolitics (downplaying re-armament plans) and definitely due to funding issues.
    This was suppose to be the mainstay of the new resurrected Russian fleet. And here in 2019, we have ONLY ONE ship Operational and another one undergoing sea trials with the rest four under various stages of construction.
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    Post  Dima on Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:54 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:I believe they will build the new nuclear powered cruisers/destroyers, but most probably the design is still work in progress, and will not be the same as the anime destroyer presented a few years ago during a naval show.
    Agree

    Concerning 22350, the shipyards capable of building 11356 (Yantar, baltic and admiralty shipyard in saint Petersburg and Zaliv in Crimea) can also build 22350 (of course depending on their different orders and utilisation) so I do not understand the need of building two different class of frigates at the same time, especially now that finally the development problems of 22350 are finished.
    The big question almost everyone fails to see is, there are many yards in Russia capable of building 22350 class of warships, but all the orders just go to Severnya.
    They are expanding the yard with eyes on two major projects of the future - LHD, which atleast for now have gone to Zaliv (still early days, hope it doesn't get torpedoed) and the cruisers for Russian navy.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:50 pm

    Dima wrote:.......20386...- it simply doesn't mean it will replace 11356, it also means it will also replace the original replacement for 1135/6, i.e 22350.
    Only thing 20386 will replacing are Steregushchiy and Gremyashchiy corvettes

    22350 will be replacing everything larger including 11356



    Dima wrote:.....In the meantime do pray that the last two 22350 with 24-cell VLS dont get cancelled.
    Don't need to pray for anything, Navy went on record that they need at least 8 Gorshkov frigates for both Pacific and North fleet

    That's 16 total

    And even if they wanted to replace them they can't because they have nothing to replace them with



    Dima wrote:.......Chances of cancelling are low, coz its Severnya Verf, the most incompetent and corrupt yard, who is building it.
    Nowhere near incompetent as Yantar which couldn't complete a glorified cargo ship for 20 years



    Dima wrote:.......Actually the whole of Russian Navy's new capital warships are being built by a single yard in Russia.
    Perfect example of - All eggs in one basket. Its a disaster in the making...
    Probably because every time job was given to Yantar it was a disaster of epic proportions

    Better a hypothetical disaster than another real one



    Dima wrote:
    ...23560 is vaporware and it's not being built, not now, not ever (whole thing was a joke by design studio anyway, some weeb there had too much time on his hands)
    Wait and watch  Wink
    For what? Anime-class destroyer never getting built?

    No need to wait because I am already watching it happen, now and always



    Dima wrote:....For now it is just 2 + 2 more ships for a total of 6 ships. The lowest any Russian ship design has lasted...
    Nowhere near close

    Lowest Russian ship design is by far your beloved 11356 Dumpster-class frigate which was built in whole 3 ships before it was canned (half the number of Gorshkovs and dropping)

    An obsolete export junk purchased to fill the holes created by Crimean crisis



    Dima wrote:....Project number can change, you do not have to stick on to it. But cruisers are given.
    Sure, just like CVNs, warp drive and Death Star which are also given...  lol1

    While in the real world fleet will be composed of Karakurt missile boats, Mercury corvettes, Gorshkov frigates and Super Gorshkov heavy frigates

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:24 am

    Severnaya Verf is part of united shipbuilding.
    If they or yantar are ineffective because of corruption or incompetence, managers can be removed and the company can be placed on extraordinary control from some government officials.

    In addition, they can lose contracts. The navy likes to order smaller ships also from private yards like the one in Zelenodolsk (Tatarstan) or Pella because they normally  complete the ships in time and without too many problems, except of course  when there are engine delivery issues.

    However we cannot also attribute too many responsibilities to yantar and Severnaya verf. For the landing ship it was not all responsibility of the shipyard,  since the customer (the navy)  changed their requirements  many times and was not sure about the usage of the ship. Furthermore in the same period they were able to build 3 Taiwar frigates for India and three grigorovich frigates for the black fleet without many delays. As for Severnaya Verf, Gorshkov frigate delays were mainly due to sensor and weapon systems not ready (poliment redut became fully operational only last summer), and the lack of delivery of engines for the later frigates (the ukraine delivered only the engines for the first 2 ships) made also the shipyard probably  slow down the work on the 3rd and 4th ships.

    I believe the management is trying to get too many military contracts,  also for ships (corvettes) that would better be built elsewhere, but apart from that I do not believe they are  incapable of build ships in a proper timescales if their supply chain problems are solved.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:54 am

    When I was a wee kid I used to build plastic model aircraft... and being a kid I used to use all of the weapons provided in the kit... well with some kits there were a lot of weapons so I ended up putting bomb pylons on the horizontal tail surfaces and missiles on wing tips and horizontal and vertical tail tips and even on top of the wing like the Jaguar.

    Looking at them now they look silly and impractical but at the time I thought they looked cool.

    A real aircraft loaded that way would be a dog... too much weight... too much drag... a sitting duck if it managed to get airborne at all...

    I think some people here are a bit that way inclined... Russian corvettes need to be well armed but don't need to be armed to take on Chinese or US Navy cruisers on their own.

    All Russian ships will be well armed, but they don't need to be arsenal ships... just the cost of filling those tubes with missiles would make those ships prohibitively expensive to operate.

    Most of the time just having cheaper simpler weapons loaded makes sense... and considering that Onyx offers the fire power of a Granit having 16 Onyx missiles on a Corvette compared with 20 Granits on a Kirov or 12 Granits on the Kuznetsov means that corvette is extremely well armed already.

    Even 16 Urans makes them as well armed or better armed than most western frigates and often with a better gun too... in a 100mm automatic weapon.

    Even if every class they make does not double the weapon load it is not that big a deal... they need balance and well armed ships but they also need to be comfortable and livable... with good sensors and equipment to help them be useful in a range of roles.

    Bigger ships should just be a case of scaling up the designs though as they scale up tricks can be applied to carry more weapons and equipment etc and bigger sensors will make them more capable and longer endurance...
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    Post  Azi on Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:32 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    While in the real world fleet will be composed of Karakurt missile boats, Mercury corvettes, Gorshkov frigates and Super Gorshkov heavy frigates
    You know that they need cruisers, no chance to stand with a few corvettes and frigates against a middle class flotilla of an adversary. Now they have Kirov-cruiser and Slava-cruiser.

    Russian Navy can go for heavy carriers and be satiesfied with Super Gorshkov. That would be american way...a huge flotilla of carriers, complemented with Arleigh Burke-destroyers. Ticonderoga-cruiser fullfill only the same role like Arleigh Burke-destroyer, but are able to do independant missions with a litlle little chance to survive. This is a very expensive way, because the carrier strike group must act as a group.

    Or they can go the USSR way...build the cruisers. The considered cruisers can act alone or in a battlegroup together with other ships. The long endurance and extraordinary abilities making the cruiser really cheap compared to a full battlegroup. And only bigger cruisers are able to carry naval S-500, I doubt the Super Gorshkov will carry naval S-500.

    The only reason Russia don't build cruiser now is, they have to clean the mess in shipbuilding industry, beginning only with corvettes and frigates...and it works now really better! They gain a lot of experience in shipbuilding industry now. The cruisers now will be in service for a few years Wink but not forever!!! Best indication new cruisers will be built, is the remaining 2 Kirov-cruisers in reserve will be scrapped.

    And really money is not the reason! I hear every year Russia has no money, the are poor, they have no money for nothing...they are on the level of Nigeria...bla bla...whatever bullshit you hear, it's only BULLSHIT! They don't to make the mistake of USSR and USA, spending too much for military. Balance is the magic word Wink You will see, soon in a few decades the USA can eat their F-35 and carriers, without money and other countries don't paying for american debt!
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    Post  Dima on Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Only thing 20386 will replacing are Steregushchiy and Gremyashchiy corvettes

    22350 will be replacing everything larger including 11356
    Another project will replace 20386 before it replaces 20380 and 20385.  Wink
    Even you admitted earlier that it wont be built in large numbers.

    Severnya built 22350 cant even fullfill its own number now, let alone replace 11356. Laughing

    Don't need to pray for anything, Navy went on record that they need at least 8 Gorshkov frigates for both Pacific and North fleet

    That's 16 total

    And even if they wanted to replace them they can't because they have nothing to replace them with
    Actions speak louder than words!
    Where are the orders or atleast the "letter" of intent for those 8 x 22350 each for Northern and Pacific fleet?

    The only thing that is REAL w.r.t Project 22350 as of Dec 2019 is ----- ONLY ONE is Operational, ONE is undergoing sea trials and the rest FOUR are in various stages of construction.

    Nowhere near incompetent as Yantar which couldn't complete a glorified cargo ship for 20 years
    Really? And which ship would be that?
    You know the history of that ship/deal/project?

    Probably because every time job was given to Yantar it was a disaster of epic proportions

    Better a hypothetical disaster than another real one
    Specify the disaster at Yantar of Epic proportion.
    Strong loyalty for your private contractors at Severnaya who have held hostage the entire surface fleet construction of Russian Navy and practically destroyed the rearmament plans...

    Dima wrote:
    ...23560 is vaporware and it's not being built, not now, not ever (whole thing was a joke by design studio anyway, some weeb there had too much time on his hands)
    Wait and watch  Wink
    For what? Anime-class destroyer never getting built?

    No need to wait because I am already watching it happen, now and always
    You are proving your comprehension skills to be low.... so pls don't be a manipulative and dishonest arsole. Quote the entire thing that I wrote.

    This is the original thing
    Dima wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:20356 will be built in smaller series because doctrine no longer revolves around corvettes

    22350 is built as standard frigate and 22350M takes the spot of destroyers in smaller numbers

    23560 is vaporware and it's not being built, not now, not ever (whole thing was a joke by design studio anyway, some weeb there had too much time on his hands)
    Wait and watch  Wink
    I wrote the above for the entire plan not just for the cruiser project. And below that I specifically replied to each of the ship class.


    Nowhere near close

    Lowest Russian ship design is by far your beloved 11356 Dumpster-class frigate which was built in whole 3 ships before it was canned (half the number of Gorshkovs and dropping)

    An obsolete export junk purchased to fill the holes created by Crimean crisis
    Too hard to swallow your pride.
    11356 is the iteration of the 1135

    For dumbos with too much pride, I can repeat the numbers once more.
    1135 - for Soviet Navy - 40 numbers
    11356 - 6 for Indian Navy + 6 for Russian Navy (of which 3 got cancelled) - so its now 6 + 4 for Indian Navy and 3 for Russian Navy - a  TOTAL of 13 units.

    Only a seasoned manipulative and dishonest moronic arsole will consider it a 3 ship project ignoring everything else related to the 11356 project/deal!
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 pm

    And only bigger cruisers are able to carry naval S-500, I doubt the Super Gorshkov will carry naval S-500.

    I suspect the UKSK-M is being modified to allow S-500 and the missiles of the Redut launcher can be carried and will be fitted to Russian ships of destroyer size and bigger.

    S-500 is their equivalent of Standard so they will want it on as many ships as they can have it as its back up ABM capability will make the US Navy squeal and whine like nobodies business.

    While in the real world fleet will be composed of Karakurt missile boats, Mercury corvettes, Gorshkov frigates and Super Gorshkov heavy frigates

    Well in this real world they are upgrading Kirov and Slava class cruisers... if there is no plan for future cruisers are you suggesting they will keep using them for ever?

    If there was no future plans for a CVN the Kuznetsov would already be gone with no need to replace it.

    If there were no future plans for cruisers to be the core of a surface action group then the Kirovs and the Slavas would be gone too.... these are big ships that are not cheap to maintain or upgrade... if they saw no future for cruisers why are they spending money on them now?

    The facts are that they have plans and new CVNs and new cruisers are part of that plan.... now they might have a revolutionary breakthrough in technology and design and create a functional reliable effective VSTOL stealthy supersonic fighter, and that will influence the final design of their CVN... to be honest I don't think they would make it smaller... I think they would modify it to carry more fuel and weapons and more aircraft if needed to give it better endurance on long range operations... which is basically what it is for.

    But we have already discussed that to death.

    Comments from the navy about restoring the K because they need to keep carrier skills while they are preparing for the production of a CVN in 2030 or so proves they want aircraft carriers, and their spending money upgrading cruisers proves they intend to keep using those... as I keep saying cruisers and surface ships are what the Russian navy will be all about... aircraft carriers are just there to defend them from enemy aircraft and missiles.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:41 pm

    Dima wrote:.....Another project will replace 20386 before it replaces 20380 and 20385....
     
    Nothing will be replacing 20386 any time soon, 20386 will be replacing 20380, 20385 and 11356

    Replacing 11356 in particular will be quite easy since it's epically inferior platform built in pathetic series of 3 whole vessels for Russian navy only to die a miserable death and be sold off to India at glorious discount just to clear dock space



    Dima wrote:.....Even you admitted earlier that it wont be built in large numbers....

    Of course it won't be, no corvette will

    Corvettes are relic of era of Peace and Partnership (TM) defense doctrine which died in 2014

    They just need handful of them now for various odd-jobs and nothing more

    Frigates are backbone of new doctrine  



    Dima wrote:.....You know the history of that ship/deal/project?...

    Yes I do

    A sad and pathetic history it is



    Dima wrote:..... a manipulative and dishonest arsole......

    Only a seasoned manipulative and dishonest moronic arsole....

    You do have a big and filthy mouth there

    Too bad the brain is greatly lagging when it comes to size


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    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:05 pm


    Replacing 11356 in particular will be quite easy since it's epically inferior platform built in pathetic series of 3 whole vessels for Russian navy only to die a miserable death and be sold off to India at glorious discount just to clear dock space

    Those ships are the most useful ships since the fall of soviet union. They are the ones that allow permanent deployement of russian navy in Syria.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:59 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Replacing 11356 in particular will be quite easy since it's epically inferior platform built in pathetic series of 3 whole vessels for Russian navy only to die a miserable death and be sold off to India at glorious discount just to clear dock space

    Those ships are the most useful ships since the fall of soviet union. They are the ones that allow permanent deployement of russian navy in Syria.


    Usefulness is besides the point

    Their obsolescence is the issue


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    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:20 pm

    Usefulness is besides the point

    Their obsolescence is the issue

    I wonder how obsolate it is ? And why is it obsolate ?

    We already discussed it capabilities with the GI Joe of this forum. They are very good ships.

    20386 is just as good in terms of weapons but is a corvette as expensive as a frigate so will spend its time around its homeport like the rest of the steregouchy class ships.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:57 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Usefulness is besides the point

    Their obsolescence is the issue

    I wonder how obsolate it is ? And why is it obsolate ?

    We already discussed it capabilities with the GI Joe of this forum. They are very good ships.

    20386 is just as good in terms of weapons but is a corvette as expensive as a frigate so will spend its time around its homeport like the rest of the steregouchy class ships.

    They are good ships and these 3 will be seeing decades of use

    But compared to Mercury and Gorshkov they are obsolete

    Time to move on

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