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    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr on Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:28 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Well the 22350M heavy frigate/destroyer would cost more to operate than the "vanilla" 22350 and would require more people in the crew.

    In addition it would be nice if for once Russians start producing in decent number (at least 8 or 12) a successful ship project once it is finalized and fully tested. Trying always to modify it to improve it would mean having no commonality and waiting always for years to repeat the development and testing phase. The Americans built about 20 burke class destroyers before modifying the design.

    Anyway, no ship of the modified and enlarged project can be laid down before the design is finished, so it is possible than in the next couple or years a few more 22350 will be laid down, possibly also in different shipyards.  

    Yantar, as an example, should deliver to India two 11356 before 2022.

    After that, if no further export orders for taiwar/grigorovich  arrive, they could start producing 22350.

    Severnaya Verf could possibly also laid down additional 22350 in the meanwhile, ideally renouncing to producing also further 20386 (that, if necessary, could be instead produced in Pella or in Amur shipyards).

    It would only cost a bit more and I don't think it will need more crew. It has the same systems and mainly more VLS cells.
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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:07 am

    Dima wrote:
    Replace the RBU-6000 with 8-VLS for a total of 16 x VLS
    Replace the 3S-90 unit with 36-48 x cell VLS for 9m317M/9M96E/E2
    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 11 Xf77s

    Lets call it Project 1135.7 for the mid-life upgraded ones and 1135.8 for the new ones with CODAG  (10D49 + M90FR) Very Happy

    And what's currently below the RBU-6000 and 3S-90?

    VLS tubes take up a lot of vertical room.
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:47 am

    I consider it stupid. 20386 doesn't have growth potential in its size and design, its already packed tight.

    Where as 11356 has not yet been optimised and still presents a lot of growth potential.
    I agree that 20386 is under-armed for its size.
    But its got a lot of growth potential through new modular containerised systems.
    The problem is that the basic armament isn't good for its size & the modular systems are at least partially mutually exclusive.

    I believe 11356 can bear a bit of an upgrade but to say its got a lot of growth potential is kinda barmy.
    Grigorovich is the 6th major rework/optimisation of the 1950s Krivak design.

    A max config would be something like the Shtil-1 VLS bumped up to 36 as in the original display model, replace the RBU with a 2nd 8-cell UKSK & put Pantsir-Ms on the hangar sides (first batch of Talwars had Kashtans).

    But when you're proposing a major propulsion & radar change as well you might as well just build more 22350s.

    I think a more realistic (relatively cheap & easy) upgrade would be adding the 2nd UKSK module + Ghibkas on hangar sides (additional to the AK-630s), maybe a 3rd between the UKSKs & bridge.
    The point is to get some cheap, moderately capable ships out quickly.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:37 pm

    What I don't understand is why you believe that those changes would make the resulting ship much cheaper than a vanilla gorshkov, while granting similar performances...

    Even more true now that they have already managed to fit a 3rd UKSK module starting from the 5th and 6th 22350 being built in Severnaya Verf.

    Concerning 20386, I agree that it is under armed for its size and cost. However, saying that it is under armed and that at the same time has no growth potential is a bit strange.

    We know for sure that other ships in russian service were under armed in the pilot product and the situation has been later corrected from the 2nd or 3rd ships...

    As an example the first 20380 had weak antiair defence: only ak630 CIWS, while later ships had also redut launchers. And same thing was true for the 22800 missile ship, while starting from the second serial ship they had pantsir.

    Furthermore,  since several of the systems will be shared with larger ships, it is possible that eventually the cost will be reduced, especially for a serie of ships.

    Anyway it is possible that after some experimental service operation of the 20386 they could better fix and optimise its design and weapon system package to adapt it to the russian navy needs.

    In the meanwhile they could concentrate shipbuilding resources on other ships whose design and development is already finished (and a modified 11356 does not belong to this category).
    Maybe even additional 20381 or 20385 (even if those ships are already packed tight and have no growth potential, they work fine and their production has finally being mastered in Amur shipyard as well (Just not build them at Severnaya Verf,  please), or an anti sub version of 22160.

    Note:

    There is a reason if Russia preferred scrapping the hull of the partially built tuman frigate, the third ship of the Project 11540 (Neustrashimyy class) than completing it to an outdated design and for which they did not have engines.
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    Post  hoom on Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:25 pm

    As an example the first 20380 had weak antiair defence: only ak630 CIWS
    It had a Kashtan including the 32* 10km missiles.
    IMO that config but with a Pantsir-M would be a better air defence than the 12* Redut & weak Furke radar setup.
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    Azi

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    Post  Azi on Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:03 pm

    hoom wrote:
    I consider it stupid. 20386 doesn't have growth potential in its size and design, its already packed tight.

    Where as 11356 has not yet been optimised and still presents a lot of growth potential.
    I agree that 20386 is under-armed for its size.
    Hey Guys...WTF you are talking about??? Suspect

    Project 20386 is a corvette with a displacement of ~3.500 t. And you compare it to Zumwalt-class or Arleigh Burke-class or whatever in this displacement class? Sorry that's complete BS!!!

    Project 20386 has 2x4 VLS planned for fitting Zirkon, 2x8 VLS for Redut (able to fitting small Quad Pack Missiles) and 2x4 Paket NK launcher. The "module" includes up to 2 additional module container, each container can carry 4 Kalibr missile...in the end 4x4 VLS (maybe the conatiner will include Zirkon?!). Additional the gun, the short range AD System and MG against torpedoes.

    Okay...in beast mode...


    • 4x4 VLS (16 Zirkon, Kalibr...whatever)...2x4 VLS regular and 2x4 VLS in container!


    • 2x8 Redut VLS (up to 48x 9M100 missiles or any combination of bigger and smaller missiles!).


    • 2x4 Paket NK.


    • 1x helicopter.


    • Unknown short AD System...old information is 2xAK630M.


    • 1x A190 100 mm gun.


    Okay guys...this is underarmed for 3500 t displacement and 15 % more speed compared to project 20380?

    And let's not forget it's stealth characteristic, it's better compared to most modern western corvette, frigates and destroyer!!!

    Let's compare it to...(every ship has of course a big naval gun)

    German F-125 Class: 8x Harpoon Missile and 2x 21 RIM-116 RAM...oh WOW No (Displacement 7200 t)
    French La Fayette-class: 8× Exocet MM40 block II anti-ship missiles, 1× Crotale CN2 CIWS, 2 × 20 mm modèle F2 guns. Suspect (Displacement ~3500 t)
    British Type 45 destoyer: 2x4 Harpoon, 48 cell Sylver A50 VLS, 2 × Phalanx CIWS. pwnd (displacement ~9000 t).

    And Project 20386 is underarmed?????????
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:16 pm

    It is either the container or the helicopter I think.

    Dzerki is also a corvette, with small space for crew, 109m with the internal hangar for helicopter don't help.
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    Azi

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    Post  Azi on Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:46 pm

    Isos wrote:It is either the container or the helicopter I think.

    Dzerki is also a corvette, with small space for crew, 109m with the internal hangar for helicopter don't help.
    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 11 Project_20386_Corvette_Derzky_Russia_2

    This picture shows 2 mission container and 1 helicopter. The conatiner seems very small for VLS container Suspect but there is space for longer version in this rendering.

    But lifting up 2 containers is not possible, so they can only use 1 container at deck at the same time...and they have to move out the helicopter before using the container ;D Option is to forget the helicopter and store the container direkt at lift platform...so you have high combat readiness in short time.

    Yes it's true the system is modular but far from perfect! Lifting modules up to the deck will take time. And VLS container are not usable during bad weather conditions.

    The crew is estimated 80 men, project 20380 has 99 men. So it has more displacement with less crew. Space for crew should be no problem (yes, of course space on every corvette sucks!). And even without the containers, project 20386 is better armed than any western ship in it's class. Let's not forget! Wink

    And by the way...the design is beautiful. I love you


    Last edited by Azi on Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Azi

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    Post  Azi on Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:12 pm

    And project 20386 is not expensive because of the hull (okay...the glass fibre superstructure is of course a bit more expensive!). It's not expensive because of modular concept! It's expensive because of the technology, they are implying and later introducing with this ship! New radar etc...

    If you upgrade an older ship to technological project 20386 level, it would cost signficant more, than a new project 20386 ship!
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    Post  hoom on Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:56 pm

    Project 20386 is a corvette with a displacement of ~3.500 t. And you compare it to Zumwalt-class or Arleigh Burke-class or whatever in this displacement class?
    No we're comparing 3500ton 20386 with 3500ton 11356.
    11356 is clearly better armed on the same displacement.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:25 pm

    hoom wrote:
    Project 20386 is a corvette with a displacement of ~3.500 t. And you compare it to Zumwalt-class or Arleigh Burke-class or whatever in this displacement class?
    No we're comparing 3500ton 20386 with 3500ton 11356.
    11356 is clearly better armed on the same displacement.
    full load 11356 is about 4000 tons.
    And anyway it is 15 metres longer (124 vs 109).
    I do not understand in what 11356 would be superior to 20386 ( apart from being cheaper).
    It has 8 uksk vls, 1 100mm gun, 2x12 shtil (naval buk) launchers, old antisub rockets and two torpedo tubes. Furthermore it carries an helicopter. Not bad, but not better than 20386
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:19 am

    This picture shows 2 mission container and 1 helicopter. The conatiner seems very small for VLS container Suspect but there is space for longer version in this rendering.

    Nice picture, but if you look at it carefully it is rather interesting... there are three sections there, the very rear section has the towing and recovery mechanism to one side that could probably be used for a range of things like taking the two items in the centre of the middle section and deploying them or recovering them at sea... I would presume it could also be used for small rigid speed boats or other things like small hovercraft or perhaps even mini submarines which could be lifted out of the second storage bay area and released out the back of the ship or recovered back into the ship at sea. I would also expect it could be used to deploy a towed array of some sort that could also be stored in the second bay when needed and deployed or recovered when needed too.

    The sides of the middle section have large doors and sideways moving gantries so those speed boats on either side of the middle section could be released out the sides of the ship at the same time or recovered at the same time or individually.

    At the moment you see the overhead gantries for moving things from the middle to the rear and out the back of the ship or from the open ocean over the rear and into the middle compartment. It shows four items in the middle compartment... the two outside spaces have rigid inflatable boats but presumably could be submersables or hovercraft or landing vessels or towed arrays or two extra shipping containers that could be lifted out sideways via the large side doors via the roof mounted cranes. I would expect they could also fit items like autonomous systems that sit on the sea bed and record and transmit data, or perhaps sea mines or even sea bed layed weapons like torpedos or mines to interfere with shipping or sub traffic through the area. The two middle items in the middle section are shipping crates... which normally come in two standard sizes... 80ft, and what these ones appear to be 40ft length crates. It is known the Russians have shipping crate mounted equipment but it could just as easily be filled with supplies that can be delivered to ports around the world. It can also carry Uran type anti ship missiles which presumably could be launched after being moved up on deck, or it could contain a helicopter type UAV drone to support operations.

    The third rear section contains a Helix class helicopter on a deck lift to act as a hangar but also leave the entire rear deck clear if needed, but could just as easily carry a Ka-225T helicopter with 3-4 separate module pods that can be attached to the helo to perform specific roles as needed.

    Or it could carry any number of UAVs in the rear under deck hangar area.

    Yes it's true the system is modular but far from perfect! Lifting modules up to the deck will take time. And VLS container are not usable during bad weather conditions.

    Many weapon systems are not usable in bad weather conditions, but you need to define which conditions would stop its use?

    What makes you think it would need to be lifted up to deck level before it could launch a missile from a crate... who is to say it can launch its missile from inside the ship?

    Who is to say it has a missile... it might just be support equipment or submersables that can be moved by those roof mounted gantries out the back and into the water where they will be deployed and do their job on their own...

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:17 pm

    How many times does someone need to point out the Derzkii isn't meant to be equally armed as a ship like the 11356?. The Derzkii is a modular ship designed to carry out a wide range of missions.

    We all know the 11356 has more weapons I said the weapon differences months ago.

    The 11356 was a stop-gap measure mind you, built because they needed ships fast the thing is inferior to modern frigates. I can't comprehend why people are so set on building more of a obsolete design.

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    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:54 pm

    The 11356 was a stop-gap measure mind you, built because they needed ships fast the thing is inferior to modern frigates. I can't comprehend why people are so set on building more of a obsolete design.

    It's one of te best cost effective multirile frigates in the world. 8 cells for various cruise missiles and torpedi missiles of kalibr and oniks family and soon Zirkon.

    24 shtill that can intercept subsonic missiles that most other frigates carry.

    53 cm torpedoes whike other frigate carry smaller ones.

    A RBU that no other frigates carry.

    A proven dual band radar for surveillance.

    4 engagement radars for its shtill.

    2 ciws.

    Last produced sonar. And a ka-27.

    The design is older than other frigates but that doesn't meab it is outdated and less capable.

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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:44 pm

    Isos wrote:
    The 11356 was a stop-gap measure mind you, built because they needed ships fast the thing is inferior to modern frigates. I can't comprehend why people are so set on building more of a obsolete design.

    It's one of te best cost effective multirile frigates in the world. 8 cells for various cruise missiles and torpedi missiles of kalibr and oniks family and soon Zirkon. ......

    It's an obsolete export platform which got used as stopgap solution until up-to-date class became available

    And no, it can't carry Zircon, it can't even carry Onyx because it lacks required electronics

    Kalibr is only one available for Grigorevich

    As for 20386 it's a completely different class designed for completely different mission type

    Why does anyone compare these two is beyond me




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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:47 pm


    ALSO:

    Could mods rename this tread to "Project 20386 Mercury-class modular corvette" since lead ship name was changed?


    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:40 pm

    Isos wrote:
    The 11356 was a stop-gap measure mind you, built because they needed ships fast the thing is inferior to modern frigates. I can't comprehend why people are so set on building more of a obsolete design.

    It's one of te best cost effective multirile frigates in the world. 8 cells for various cruise missiles and torpedi missiles of kalibr and oniks family and soon Zirkon.

    24 shtill that can intercept subsonic missiles that most other frigates carry.

    53 cm torpedoes whike other frigate carry smaller ones.

    A RBU that no other frigates carry.

    A proven dual band radar for surveillance.

    4 engagement radars for its shtill.

    2 ciws.

    Last produced sonar. And a ka-27.

    The design is older than other frigates but that doesn't meab it is outdated and less capable.


    It is out dated and less capable AND your information is wrong here, your making the ship out to be better then it actually is.

    Lets look at two silly points you made, 533cm torps? The reason other frigates don't carry those is because, it's completely unessecary. Smaller torps are faster and will sink any submarine.

    Bigger isn't better dude, you should know better by now.

    An RBU? Lol that's another piece of technology that is pointless. No other navies bother with those because the ship has torpedos and Choppers for ASW.

    Putting a pointless feature on a ship doesn't make it good.

    Shtill is also very short-range and have other faults, I don't know why people insist on fanboying over this class.

    You are right about one thing it is cost-effective because it's made up of mostly old technology that doesn't cut it anymore.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:04 am

    24 shtill that can intercept subsonic missiles that most other frigates carry.

    Actually even the SA-17 version of BUK can intercept supersonic ARMs and a rather wide range of targets including ballistic ones like Lance 2 and other 1.2km/s targets.... I would expect any new model Shtil going on new ships will be based on BUK-M3 which are even better... I wouldn't underestimate this missile.

    The design is older than other frigates but that doesn't meab it is outdated and less capable.

    And all linked in to the Russian AEGIS system, meaning it adds to the picture and the weapon options to defeat targets and threats.

    It's an obsolete export platform which got used as stopgap solution until up-to-date class became available

    It is a new (build) ship with new weapons and systems and is no where near obsolete, with Zircon missiles loaded it is what americans call a game changer... if it was American they wouldn't shut up about it... pictures would be everywhere...

    And no, it can't carry Zircon, it can't even carry Onyx because it lacks required electronics

    Say what?

    What electronics is it lacking exactly?

    They have already had corvettes launch Kalibr missiles there is no way those corvettes could detect targets on land 2,500km away... perhaps part of their AEGIS like battle management electronic suite it includes being able to get target information from other platforms to allow attacking targets the ship on its own might not detect?

    What other electronics would it need?

    Kalibr is only one available for Grigorevich

    What part of Universal in UKSK are you not understanding?

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    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:38 am

    Lets look at two silly points you made, 533cm torps? The reason other frigates don't carry those is because, it's completely unessecary. Smaller torps are faster and will sink any submarine.

    Bigger sonar, longer range. Smaller torpedoes are not faster.

    Then why isn't there any small torpedo in US SSN if they are so good ?

    An RBU? Lol that's another piece of technology that is pointless. No other navies bother with those because the ship has torpedos and Choppers for ASW.

    Yeah they put them only to make the ship look more agressive you know ... psyop...

    RBU are very good and cheap. What would a nato frigate do against an incoming torpedo ? Launch decoys that don't work ? Their small torpedo can't intercept other torpedoes. Russian have weakhoming against which nobody has a way to protect itself against.

    RBU can also destroy a submarine or mines fields.

    Shtill is also very short-range and have other faults, I don't know why people insist on fanboying over this class.

    Shtill has a 45km range, that's the range of modern radars against low flying missiles. As soon as they see the anti ship missile it can target it with an air defence missile at max range.

    S-300 or s400 or SM 2 or SM 6 are also limited to such range because of radar horizon. So shtill does the job and it can be upgraded to buk M3 pretty easily and it is way cheaper than long range missiles.

    45 km at subsonic speed gives you something like 2 minutes, more than enough. And with 2 targeting radar on both side, you will need more than 8 missiles to overwhelm the ship.

    Nato and chinese frigates carry 8 subsonic missiles. In one vs one Grigorivitch and its 24 shtill can intercept all the anti ship missiles of 2-3 frigates. Its uksk allows kalibr and oniks which are very hard targets to intercept.

    Being more cost effective you can buy 2 for one nato frigate.

    India keeps ordering it and Chinese type 054 is almost the same and they keep buying it.

    Russia has Gorshkov which is better that's why they won't purchase anymore grigorovitch but the ship is very good.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:57 am

    GarryB wrote:

    And no, it can't carry Zircon, it can't even carry Onyx because it lacks required electronics

    Say what?

    What electronics is it lacking exactly?

    They have already had corvettes launch Kalibr missiles there is no way those corvettes could detect targets on land 2,500km away... perhaps part of their AEGIS like battle management electronic suite it includes being able to get target information from other platforms to allow attacking targets the ship on its own might not detect?

    What other electronics would it need?

    Given that the UKSK is a standardised ordnance launcher system, the electrical/electronic interfaces to the missiles will be standarised - both in terms of hardware, electrical signal levels and timings, and communications protocol.  It doesn't really matter what missile is loaded, or what generation the weapon is - the ordnance control system will have the basics required to talk to the missile and transfer the data.  Adding new missiles to the system is a matter of software upgrade only, not "new electronics" or "new computers".  The ordnance controls will recognise the missile type (and hardware/software version) by its ID code embedded in the header of its address space, and the control system communicates accordingly.  Think of it like a factory-floor industrial networking system like Profibus or CAN, or even an ancient (but still very effective) open-architecture protocol like Modbus RTU over RS-422/485.

    Different weapons may require a different pre-launch sequence, but thats hardly an issue.  The main hiccup I could foresee is if the new missile requires a dataset that is unavailable on the host vessel, but I can't imagine what that might be.  Any AShM or LACM will require a well-known dataset to be loaded prior to launch (eg target coordinates, range, maybe a selection for default flight & attack mode).

    We also need to keep in mind that AShM versions of Kalibre exist, including a M3 terminal attack sea-skimmer.   It may well be that the RuN doesn't see a need to deploy Oniks when a Kalibre variant will suffice.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:23 pm

    Buyan were also said to not be capable of launching anti ship missiles yet we saw few weeks ago a launch of the terminal supersonic kalibr by one of them.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:13 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    The 11356 was a stop-gap measure mind you, built because they needed ships fast the thing is inferior to modern frigates. I can't comprehend why people are so set on building more of a obsolete design.

    It's one of te best cost effective multirile frigates in the world. 8 cells for various cruise missiles and torpedi missiles of kalibr and oniks family and soon Zirkon.

    24 shtill that can intercept subsonic missiles that most other frigates carry.

    53 cm torpedoes whike other frigate carry smaller ones.

    A RBU that no other frigates carry.

    A proven dual band radar for surveillance.

    4 engagement radars for its shtill.

    2 ciws.

    Last produced sonar. And a ka-27.

    The design is older than other frigates but that doesn't meab it is outdated and less capable.


    It is out dated and less capable AND your information is wrong here, your making the ship out to be better then it actually is.

    Lets look at two silly points you made, 533cm torps? The reason other frigates don't carry those is because, it's completely unessecary. Smaller torps are faster and will sink any submarine.

    Bigger isn't better dude, you should know better by now.

    An RBU? Lol that's another piece of technology that is pointless. No other navies bother with those because the ship has torpedos and Choppers for ASW.

    Putting a pointless feature on a ship doesn't make it good.

    Shtill is also very short-range and have other faults, I don't know why people insist on fanboying over this class.

    You are right about one thing it is cost-effective because it's made up of mostly old technology that doesn't cut it anymore.


    I will reduce the aim of mine post to the idea behind the persistence in ships with low tonnage (and where the integration of the more up-to-date and without counterpart worldwide universal system "Пакет") of the 533 mm torpedo tube and РПК-8 systems.

    The presence of both on the same unit is operationally linked to the synergistic antisubmarine/torpedo effect that they offer.

    While in facts the anti-surface operations for ships of this class in war times would mostly involve the merging of theirs radar signature (in the most advanced models theirs constructive feature is optimized for the masking in those kind of radar clutter environment) with those of coastal and island geomorphical formations or civil sea traffic and ,after having received targets positional data from third party - mostly space based constellation or subsurface units or sensor network - to attack them with the coordinated delivery of "Калибр" or "Оникс" capitalizing the wide engagement range advantage in comparison with foreign counterparts, the highly time-sensitive anti-submarine operations instead would require more complex sensor and weapon system interaction.

    In substance those anti-submarine operations involve one or two units (usually patrol ships) equiped with imitator-decoys and sonar buoys working also as "baits" for the enemy submarines aided by the helicopters on board of low-tonnage corvette/frigates such as пр. 11356Р, that trigger the attack of enemy submarines or channel its movements towards area controlled by those corvette/frigates proceeding at very low speed.

    At this point if a contact is exablished, or for the effect of a torpedo attack by part of the enemy submarine or because one of the delivered sonar buoy or the sensor suit on board the helicopters o corvettes obtain it, an immediate attack on the area of contact is ordered and in order to succeed this attack need weapon systems with time of reaction and speed of delivery at least an order of magnitude faster than torpedo (that would have a Pk virtually close to zero in those instances ).

    SeigSoloyvov the 533 mm torpedo tubes in those ships in facts very very often host missiles of class 91Р1, representing very high speed semi-ballistic delivery system for very high speed rochet-torpedo АПР-3М, from computations by part of 24 НИИ ВМФ none of the now in-service nuclear and diesel-propelled subamarines operative worldwide with enemy Navies would get any chance to exit from the area of destruction of that class of weapons even from the basis of a very brief contact and the Pk for a salvo of 3 of those missiles would close 0,9.

    The problem with that weapon is that 91Р1 has a "dead engagement zone" of 7-8 km and in some instances, above all with a very proficient captain and crew on board of an advanced enemy submarine, it could well happen that the enemy submarine contact could happen within this range from the frigate/corvette at example because the enemy captain would have cleverly avoided to attack the first echelon (avoiding to respect the faulty idea of attack first to "maintain the initiative" as for the typical western training) and found a way outside the purposely designed channel between sonar buoys.

    In those situations the weapon of choice become the РПК-8 with 90Р1 offering the same degree of very short reaction time ,very high delivery speed and lethality required to destroy the enemy submarines before they get any chance to egress from the attack area.
    Moreover that system would work also like a torpedo defense system against enemy torpedos eventually launched toward the ship before the engagement with 91P1.

    None of the foreign Navies could conduct similar anti-submarine operations simply because they lack entirely those class of weapons and the complex and wide technological acquisitions behind them.




    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:55 pm

    What you are describing is a dumb submarine captain.

    Any Sub captain worth his salt will be well submerged when he makes his attack by the time the ships do manage to locate them IF they even can.

    The sub will go to a depth where munitions like 91RE1 and 90R cannot reach, fast projectile will only matter IF they somehow catch the submarine out of position which would be very unlikely a submarine will always know you are around before you know they are around.



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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:38 pm

    @Iso

    Mark 48's are smaller than the Kalibes that go in those tubes, though the kalibers are faster they have a much shorter range due to the fact they have to burn tons of fuel.

    These missiles will not threaten a submarine unless said submarine gets way to close.

    I wasn't counting cruise missiles but alias they do not have a longer range in the water , so when you say longer range that's a very very big lie.

    Not sure what you mean by bigger sonar if you mean homing to a signature then no that's also a lie.


    In terms of being fired at by Torpedos that is a problem, all navies have a hard dealing with the RBU series of weapons that have a very low intercept rate. So not sure why you are bringing this up, it's a pointless statement.

    or maybe you are ignorant enough to think RBU's have some amazing intercept rate they don't, idk there.

    RBu's could sink a submarine but the munitions depth they fire is at most 1k.

    So the submarine captain would need to be one dumb fuck to get hit by that, again you don't understand the weapons you are ranting about.

    Well it has a 50km range not 45, also when intercepting other missiles you need at least 2 missiles per one trying to intercept so in reality, the system can only make at most 12 intercept attempts.

    Also the chances it will be allowed to intercept from max range is very low assuming it spots the missile before it even enters max range which is a huge IF at best., if you knew anything about missile interception which clearly you don't. You'd know max range isn't an effective intercept range.

    For the Shtill it's effective intercept range would be much shorter than that, it's a shitty air defense system that was put on because it was cheap and easy. It's a goddam EXPORT LAUNCHER. So go on put Shtill's on your ships, and enjoy that piss poor air defense they offer.

    Depends on the Nato frigate some carry eight others carry more, get your information in order.

    No, the ship isn't "very good" it only takes someone with an idea of naval knowledge to look at the thing and know it's bad for the times.

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:10 pm

    Mark 48's are smaller than the Kalibes that go in those tubes, though the kalibers are faster they have a much shorter range due to the fact they have to burn tons of fuel.

    There is no kalibr in the tube bu type 53 torpedoes.

    These missiles will not threaten a submarine unless said submarine gets way to close.

    Grigorivitch has a ka-27 that can communicate a sub location. 1 minutes after that a torpedo will fall on its top and look for him.

    I wasn't counting cruise missiles but alias they do not have a longer range in the water , so when you say longer range that's a very very big lie.

    Most nato frigates have small torpedoes (300 or so mm) with ranges of around 20km. Type 53 has 50km range and more for newest variants.

    Not sure what you mean by bigger sonar if you mean homing to a signature then no that's also a lie.

    The bigger the torpedo is the bigger the inboard sonar is and the better detection is.

    In terms of being fired at by Torpedos that is a problem, all navies have a hard dealing with the RBU series of weapons that have a very low intercept rate. So not sure why you are bringing this up, it's a pointless statement.

    RBU can launch decoys and rockets to kill the torpedo. Far better than any other system. Maybe not 100% Pk but I would rather have it than not. Decoys are not enough to protect against torpedoes because as long as the torpedo doesn't hit the ship/sub it will keep looking for its target. That's why russian have developed the Paket NK.

    RBu's could sink a submarine but the munitions depth they fire is at most 1k.

    That's not the main weapon against subs. If there is a sub in range to use the rbu they will use it. And if they use it the sub has no chance to survive.


    So the submarine captain would need to be one dumb fuck to get hit by that, again you don't understand the weapons you are ranting about.

    Ship in ASW mission will go slowly and be very quite. The sub can come into the engagement zone. But the main goal of the rbu is to destroy torpedoes.

    Well it has a 50km range not 45, also when intercepting other missiles you need at least 2 missiles per one trying to intercept so in reality, the system can only make at most 12 intercept attempts.

    Not necesserly. They will see if the first missile hit before firing the second.

    Also the chances it will be allowed to intercept from max range is very low assuming it spots the missile before it even enters max range which is a huge IF at best., if you knew anything about missile interception which clearly you don't. You'd know max range isn't an effective intercept range.

    What you say is true for maned aircraft that have rwr and know that they are engaged. So they can quickly turn 90° or turn back and increase the range of interception above the max range of the air defence missile.

    Cruise missiles and antiship missile always go in the direction of the ship so you can engage at max range (if you detect them). And they mostly do evasive manoeuvres and very low altitude during the last km so the best is to destroy them when they are going straight at higher altitude.

    It even has some ABM capability.

    And for close in protection they have ak630.

    Depends on the Nato frigate some carry eight others carry more, get your information in order.

    Which one ? In one vs one a grigorovitch can face any nato frigate. Even their destroyers since even nato destroyer carry only 8 antiship missiles.  

    No, the ship isn't "very good" it only takes someone with an idea of naval knowledge to look at the thing and know it's bad for the times.

    It is very good. It's a multi role ship cheaper than anything on the market.

    The thing is that for pro US fanboys if a russian ship can't go alone against a carrier group and win then it sucks.

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