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    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:37 pm

    Gazputin wrote:one side says we need ships to be overloaded with maximum weapons and consequently crew comfort doesn't matter so much
    ie for "total war"

    vs

    lets sacrifice maximum weapons for mission adaptability (including non military)
    and give the crew some more comfort on "peacetime patrols" …
    (add to that the cost pressures of running navies - govts like to see "multi-purpose" ships …. )

    this ship is skewed to the latter approach ….

    if a real war broke out … would you want to be on a ship this size ? I wouldn't
    you'd be blown out of the water in 45 minutes ….


    Everyone here likes to rant about "power projection"

    But it's not easy to project anything with overstuffed short range ships with miserable crews

    Especially if decades go by without naval warfare

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:57 am

    Indeed, and while you design your navy primarily to deliver force to impose your will... whether that is to get you what you need or merely what you are entitled to under international law, it is also about projecting image and brand... and unless your politicians are idiots you should be more propaganda showing the world there is an alternative to my way or the highway western culture... and alternative that wont ram its rules and morals and ideology down your throat and demand you think the way they do.

    Let me be clear... the Russian navy is not the worlds policemen and should never be so... that is not their job and shouldn't be their job.

    Modular design of their new ships and their upgrades should allow very well armed very well equipped ships be built... having good sensors and the weapons to do something about any situation they come across depends on the size of the vessel... most sensors and weapon launchers are supposed to become more and more multifunctional and over time they will become more so... of course if they have a UKSK launcher and they only ever put anti sub ballistic rockets in it then it is not going to be so flexible in operation, but as long as there is a mix of weapons generally it should be fine... of course the bigger the ship and the more modules fitted and the bigger the sensors fitted the more multi role and comfortable they should be... a Corvette could travel around the world in the sense that you can ride around the country on a motor bike, but unless you work for Top Gear and have ten SUVs full of gear and equipment going with you you will not be super comfortable... unless you stay in 5 star hotels everywhere you stop. It is the US that has bases around the world so that is really only an option for them and selected cronies.

    In ten years time when the fleet is bigger and trade ties will be improved with regular visits then agreements with foreign countries about regular use of port areas can be agreed, but right now it probably does not happen often enough to warrant such things except in war zones like Tartus in Syria and Sevastopol.... in Russia Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:11 am

    At corvette level having a big open rear deck and the levels beneath it empty where you can put cargo containers is being flexible, not being unarmed.

    They need the rear deck able to be clear to land or take off the helicopter, but while the helo is stowed in its hangar or flying on operation, with the current layout they could have containers with effectively UKSK launchers present to make the ship much more capable... if the ship is on its own it could launch its helo which might just climb vertically in the air and look for enemy vessels ahead over the radar horizon that limits the ships view... if it spots a target it can note its position and then drop back down below the radar horizon and turn and fly off at an angle so any long range SAM fired at it will have trouble finding it... meanwhile below the corvette is opening the landing deck for the helo and raising missiles from a shipping crate or two to launch some missiles at the ships that have been detected... 20km away to port the helicopter can now climb again and check the results of the attack.

    For a long range voyage or to support landing operations that space under the deck with shipping containers could carry ammo or fuel or equipment... for long range patrols it could carry some Ka-226 helicopters and some drones, or some small high speed boats to chase down pirates... the space makes the vessel flexible because it was not committed to being one thing or another... they could put 3-5 TOR vehicles that could be raised up onto the deck to increase the air defence capacity of the ship for a particular mission... you could have on board a Barnaul air defence management system and a dozen men standing on deck with Verba missiles and cued optical sights looking for air threats too.

    This is not an end to Russia covering its ships with weapons, this is Russia trying to make the weapon loadouts flexible and adaptable... of the ships they have introduced the upgraded and improved models generally have heavier armament and are bigger heavier ships... it is a normal natural progression till they get too heavy and then some things are not fitted.
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    owais.usmani

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    Post  owais.usmani on Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:35 am

    Any body has a very clear cut schematic of this class? It looks like the missile tubes are only in front, none at back?

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:59 am

    It has containerised missiles in the back via the heli-lift (& in case of Kalibr its them or the heli)
    There's a video upthread somewhere with a bunch of CGI showing interior stuff.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:23 pm

    This was probably posted somewhere before, but it's nice to have an official confirmation:

    http://mil.today/2019/Navy51/

    Project 20386 Corvettes Fully Substitute Project 11356 Frigates, Russian Navy’s Official Says

    In the Russian Navy, Project 20386 corvettes will completely replace Project 11356 frigates, reports Mil.Press Today referring to the director of the Russian Navy’s shipbuilding and armament department, Vladimir Tryapichnikov, at the launching ceremony of the Project 12700 (Alexandrite class) minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov.

    The Project 20386 multipurpose corvettes were developed at Almaz Design Bureau. They are intended for short/long-range naval warfare, protection of sea lanes and maritime commercial facilities.

    Displacing 3,400 tons (length 109 meters), the ships will be armed with A-190-01 100-mm artillery system, two AK-630M 30-mm artillery mounts, Redut air defense system, two Paket-NK antisubmarine system launchers, and Caliber high-precision cruise missiles (or Uran antiship missiles). Also, each corvette will carry either Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter.

    The Project 20386 lead ship was laid down on September 28, 2016 at Severnaya Verf shipyard. Initially called Derzky, in 2019 it was renamed into Mercury, after the Imperial Russian Navy’s brig. The shipbuilders plan to launch the ship in the spring of 2021.

    Currently, the Russian Navy operates three Project 11356 frigates: Admiral Grigorovich, Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov. Building of the second trio of the project was suspended after frustrated deliveries of the gas turbine powerplants made by Ukrainian Zorya-Mashproject.

    Displacement of Project 11356 frigates is 4,000 tons, speed is 30 knots, endurance is 30 days; onboard weapons include: A-190 100-mm artillery mount, air defense artillery/missile systems, torpedo and ASW warfare facilities, and Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. The frigates accommodate Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopters.
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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr on Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:10 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Gazputin wrote:one side says we need ships to be overloaded with maximum weapons and consequently crew comfort doesn't matter so much
    ie for "total war"

    vs

    lets sacrifice maximum weapons for mission adaptability (including non military)
    and give the crew some more comfort on "peacetime patrols" …
    (add to that the cost pressures of running navies - govts like to see "multi-purpose" ships …. )

    this ship is skewed to the latter approach ….

    if a real war broke out … would you want to be on a ship this size ? I wouldn't
    you'd be blown out of the water in 45 minutes ….


    Everyone here likes to rant about "power projection"

    But it's not easy to project anything with overstuffed short range ships with miserable crews

    Especially if decades go by without naval warfare


    No countries have any real experience with naval war. The last country to sink a US carrier was Vietnam and they did not use carrier aviation to do it. The USN has been essentially unrivaled since WWII. They have never fought a naval battle with modern weapons against a credible foe. No one knows if Russian or American weapons will work, no one knows what the other side really can do.
    Dima
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    Post  Dima on Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:32 am

    flamming_python wrote:This was probably posted somewhere before, but it's nice to have an official confirmation:

    http://mil.today/2019/Navy51/

    Project 20386 Corvettes Fully Substitute Project 11356 Frigates, Russian Navy’s Official Says

    In the Russian Navy, Project 20386 corvettes will completely replace Project 11356 frigates, reports Mil.Press Today referring to the director of the Russian Navy’s shipbuilding and armament department, Vladimir Tryapichnikov, at the launching ceremony of the Project 12700 (Alexandrite class) minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov.

    The Project 20386 multipurpose corvettes were developed at Almaz Design Bureau. They are intended for short/long-range naval warfare, protection of sea lanes and maritime commercial facilities.

    Displacing 3,400 tons (length 109 meters), the ships will be armed with A-190-01 100-mm artillery system, two AK-630M 30-mm artillery mounts, Redut air defense system, two Paket-NK antisubmarine system launchers, and Caliber high-precision cruise missiles (or Uran antiship missiles). Also, each corvette will carry either Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter.

    The Project 20386 lead ship was laid down on September 28, 2016 at Severnaya Verf shipyard. Initially called Derzky, in 2019 it was renamed into Mercury, after the Imperial Russian Navy’s brig. The shipbuilders plan to launch the ship in the spring of 2021.

    Currently, the Russian Navy operates three Project 11356 frigates: Admiral Grigorovich, Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov. Building of the second trio of the project was suspended after frustrated deliveries of the gas turbine powerplants made by Ukrainian Zorya-Mashproject.

    Displacement of Project 11356 frigates is 4,000 tons, speed is 30 knots, endurance is 30 days; onboard weapons include: A-190 100-mm artillery mount, air defense artillery/missile systems, torpedo and ASW warfare facilities, and Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. The frigates accommodate Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopters.
    I consider it stupid. 20386 doesn't have growth potential in its size and design, its already packed tight.

    Where as 11356 has not yet been optimised and still presents a lot of growth potential.

    Few things that 11356 presents -
    - Remove RBU-6000 - install additional 8 x VLS for caliber/Yakhont
    - An integrated mast - which frees up the entire amidship
    which helps to install
    - 16-24-32 x Uran or Kaliber inclined launchers OR
    - atleast 64 x canistered 9M317M missiles in inclined position.

    Rework the current propulsion to have a CODAG with M90 and D49, same as what 20386 have.

    Mind that, the above stuff will make 11356 comparable to the current 22350 class or even better in terms of weaponry it can carry!
    Now, that presents another question - is it why 11356 design is not getting upgraded?
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:13 am

    Dima wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:This was probably posted somewhere before, but it's nice to have an official confirmation:

    http://mil.today/2019/Navy51/

    Project 20386 Corvettes Fully Substitute Project 11356 Frigates, Russian Navy’s Official Says

    In the Russian Navy, Project 20386 corvettes will completely replace Project 11356 frigates, reports Mil.Press Today referring to the director of the Russian Navy’s shipbuilding and armament department, Vladimir Tryapichnikov, at the launching ceremony of the Project 12700 (Alexandrite class) minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov.

    The Project 20386 multipurpose corvettes were developed at Almaz Design Bureau. They are intended for short/long-range naval warfare, protection of sea lanes and maritime commercial facilities.

    Displacing 3,400 tons (length 109 meters), the ships will be armed with A-190-01 100-mm artillery system, two AK-630M 30-mm artillery mounts, Redut air defense system, two Paket-NK antisubmarine system launchers, and Caliber high-precision cruise missiles (or Uran antiship missiles). Also, each corvette will carry either Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter.

    The Project 20386 lead ship was laid down on September 28, 2016 at Severnaya Verf shipyard. Initially called Derzky, in 2019 it was renamed into Mercury, after the Imperial Russian Navy’s brig. The shipbuilders plan to launch the ship in the spring of 2021.

    Currently, the Russian Navy operates three Project 11356 frigates: Admiral Grigorovich, Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov. Building of the second trio of the project was suspended after frustrated deliveries of the gas turbine powerplants made by Ukrainian Zorya-Mashproject.

    Displacement of Project 11356 frigates is 4,000 tons, speed is 30 knots, endurance is 30 days; onboard weapons include: A-190 100-mm artillery mount, air defense artillery/missile systems, torpedo and ASW warfare facilities, and Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. The frigates accommodate Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopters.
    I consider it stupid. 20386 doesn't have growth potential in its size and design, its already packed tight.

    Where as 11356 has not yet been optimised and still presents a lot of growth potential.

    Few things that 11356 presents -
    - Remove RBU-6000 - install additional 8 x VLS for caliber/Yakhont
    - An integrated mast - which frees up the entire amidship
    which helps to install
    - 16-24-32 x Uran or Kaliber inclined launchers OR
    - atleast 64 x canistered 9M317M missiles in inclined position.

    Rework the current propulsion to have a CODAG with M90 and D49, same as what 20386 have.

    Mind that, the above stuff will make 11356 comparable to the current 22350 class or even better in terms of weaponry it can carry!
    Now, that presents another question - is it why 11356 design is not getting upgraded?

    If you missed it, the Ukrainians aren't selling the turbines for the 11356

    And I agree, it was a design still with some room for improvements potentially

    But the Navy always ultimately viewed it as a stopgap, fitted with tried and trusted hardware, not the latest cutting-edge weaponry.

    To be sure, there are several disadvantages with the modular 20386 approach; but it's clear that for light frigates the Navy is not going back to the 11356 anyway and that it's yesterday's hardware.

    The point of the 20386 is that they can be fitted with different modules as per the mission. Sonar module, anti-ship module (with Kalibrs; as standard I think it only has Urans), EW module, etc... as needed; and fit some specialist capabilities onto it that you can't onto the Gorshkovs or Grigoroviches.
    Who knows how this approach will work in reality, especially given that the Gorshkovs don't cost much more and and already fit most of these capabilities as standard.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:07 pm

    Dima wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:This was probably posted somewhere before, but it's nice to have an official confirmation:

    http://mil.today/2019/Navy51/

    Project 20386 Corvettes Fully Substitute Project 11356 Frigates, Russian Navy’s Official Says

    In the Russian Navy, Project 20386 corvettes will completely replace Project 11356 frigates, reports Mil.Press Today referring to the director of the Russian Navy’s shipbuilding and armament department, Vladimir Tryapichnikov, at the launching ceremony of the Project 12700 (Alexandrite class) minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov.

    The Project 20386 multipurpose corvettes were developed at Almaz Design Bureau. They are intended for short/long-range naval warfare, protection of sea lanes and maritime commercial facilities.

    Displacing 3,400 tons (length 109 meters), the ships will be armed with A-190-01 100-mm artillery system, two AK-630M 30-mm artillery mounts, Redut air defense system, two Paket-NK antisubmarine system launchers, and Caliber high-precision cruise missiles (or Uran antiship missiles). Also, each corvette will carry either Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter.

    The Project 20386 lead ship was laid down on September 28, 2016 at Severnaya Verf shipyard. Initially called Derzky, in 2019 it was renamed into Mercury, after the Imperial Russian Navy’s brig. The shipbuilders plan to launch the ship in the spring of 2021.

    Currently, the Russian Navy operates three Project 11356 frigates: Admiral Grigorovich, Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov. Building of the second trio of the project was suspended after frustrated deliveries of the gas turbine powerplants made by Ukrainian Zorya-Mashproject.

    Displacement of Project 11356 frigates is 4,000 tons, speed is 30 knots, endurance is 30 days; onboard weapons include: A-190 100-mm artillery mount, air defense artillery/missile systems, torpedo and ASW warfare facilities, and Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. The frigates accommodate Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopters.
    I consider it stupid. 20386 doesn't have growth potential in its size and design, its already packed tight.

    Where as 11356 has not yet been optimised and still presents a lot of growth potential.

    Few things that 11356 presents -
    - Remove RBU-6000 - install additional 8 x VLS for caliber/Yakhont
    - An integrated mast - which frees up the entire amidship
    which helps to install
    - 16-24-32 x Uran or Kaliber inclined launchers OR
    - atleast 64 x canistered 9M317M missiles in inclined position.

    Rework the current propulsion to have a CODAG with M90 and D49, same as what 20386 have.

    Mind that, the above stuff will make 11356 comparable to the current 22350 class or even better in terms of weaponry it can carry!
    Now, that presents another question - is it why 11356 design is not getting upgraded?

    What would be the point of building heavily modified 11356 instead of additional 22350?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:39 pm

    What would be the point of building heavily modified 11356 instead of additional 22350?

    Both are overpriced. Build Gorshkovs is the best thing they could do.

    Grigorovitch were a quick solution for the black sea fleet. They are based on an old design. The 3 they have are very good for the black sea for the next 15-20 years. But RuN won't make an old design their backbone.

    Those Steregouchshy derivates are expensive and offer nothing more over a normal steregouchshy armed with a uksk. They went crazy when they started puting the last techs on it bringing the price to the level of a big frigate for no reason.

    The small amount of weapon on both ships makes them very unlikely to be able to operate far away from friendly air bases. They have enough weapon to protect themselves against only one ship armed with 8 antiship missiles. If they face two they are dead.

    Their high price prices mean they won't have lot of them. That's why it's better to stop their production and go for only Gorshkovs.


    Karkakurt - Steregouchshy - Gorshkov - Gorshkov M is what their navy (new ships) should look like.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:46 pm

    Isos wrote:
    What would be the point of building heavily modified 11356 instead of additional 22350?

    Both are overpriced. Build Gorshkovs is the best thing they could do.

    Grigorovitch were a quick solution for black sea fleet. They are based on an old design. The 3 they have are very good for the black sea for the next 15-20 years. But RuN won't make an old design their backbone.

    Those Steregouchshy derivates are expensive and offer nothing more over a normal steregouchshy armed with a uksk. They went crazy when they started puting the last techs on it bringing the price to the level of a big frigate for no reason.

    The small amount of weapon on both ships makes them very unlikely to be able to operate far from friendly air bases. They have enough weapon to protect themselves against only one ship armed with 8 antiship missiles. If they face two they are dead.

    Their high price prices mean thry won't have lot of them. That's why it's better to stop their production and go for only Gorshkovs.


    Karkakurt - Steregouchshy - Gorshkov - Gorshkov M is what their navy should look like.

    Yeah ultimately I agree. Gorshkovs, and a mix of Stereguschiys and Gremyashiys.

    The 20386 is an attempt at an LCS analogue, but it will suffer the same problems. For Russia a modular vessel concept is best reserved for the Project 22160 class, and in the future, through the use of containers on all types of ships that can be interchanged between them, rather than modules specific to a given vessel class.
    Dima
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    Post  Dima on Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:06 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:What would be the point of building heavily modified 11356 instead of additional 22350?
    It might sound very HEAVY, but that not heavy either. Take a look at the ship once more. I'm not used to making PS job, else I would have done some rendering and presented how the ship would have looked like with the said modification.

    I just cant believe that no one notices how beautifully simple the ship is with lots of growth potential with modification which can be done even during a mid-life upgrade, except the propulsion part, which increases the scope of work.
    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 10 INS_Talwar


    Looking amidship, we got the two guidance units and supporting equipments installed.
    When an integrated mast like 22350/20385 is installed, that area will be almost completely clear. The patrol boats can be shifted somewhere else.
    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 10 Gpgg7


    The slightly "heavy" work will only come when replacing the current COGAG unit to CODAG propulsion due to work related to vibrations etc. But we that we are talking about a module comprising 4 deck level. Well inside any Russian yard/design house capability.

    Replace the RBU-6000 with 8-VLS for a total of 16 x VLS
    Replace the 3S-90 unit with 36-48 x cell VLS for 9m317M/9M96E/E2
    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 10 Xf77s

    Lets call it Project 1135.7 for the mid-life upgraded ones and 1135.8 for the new ones with CODAG  (10D49 + M90FR) Very Happy
    Dima
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    Post  Dima on Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:20 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Yeah ultimately I agree. Gorshkovs, and a mix of Stereguschiys and Gremyashiys.

    The 20386 is an attempt at an LCS analogue, but it will suffer the same problems. For Russia a modular vessel concept is best reserved for the Project 22160 class, and in the future, through the use of containers on all types of ships that can be interchanged between them, rather than modules specific to a given vessel class.
    There need to be serious thought as to if Project 20386 at 3,400t is worth the money and time spend, when Project 22160 at 1300t-1800t clearly overlaps the capability (except sonar/AD can be installed) and comes with an additional endurance of 30 days over 20386.
    Dima
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    Post  Dima on Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:26 pm

    flamming_python wrote:If you missed it, the Ukrainians aren't selling the turbines for the 11356

    And I agree, it was a design still with some room for improvements potentially

    But the Navy always ultimately viewed it as a stopgap, fitted with tried and trusted hardware, not the latest cutting-edge weaponry.

    To be sure, there are several disadvantages with the modular 20386 approach; but it's clear that for light frigates the Navy is not going back to the 11356 anyway and that it's yesterday's hardware.

    The point of the 20386 is that they can be fitted with different modules as per the mission. Sonar module, anti-ship module (with Kalibrs; as standard I think it only has Urans), EW module, etc... as needed; and fit some specialist capabilities onto it that you can't onto the Gorshkovs or Grigoroviches.
    Who knows how this approach will work in reality, especially given that the Gorshkovs don't cost much more and and already fit most of these capabilities as standard.
    I didn't miss the Ukraine part, that's why I said a CODAG with M90FR and 10D49 diesels.

    For light frigates/corvettes I would prefer 22160 any day over 20380/20385/20386, but with a bow or hull mounted sonar.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:33 pm

    In their current form they are decent ships, comparable to Chinese 054A, and could be of interest to several nations.

    If they find customers (like India) that can work with the Ukraine to get the engines they can still be produced (maybe Pakistan? That would be funny).

    However, producing additional 11356 makes sense only in their current form (and for export), because once you start modifying the design a bit here and a bit there, and changing the powerplant and the weapon systems it will be a new ship, and it will cost like a new ship.

    I cannot see the point to modify the 11356 to accommodate systems (and powerplants) made for the 22350 (Gorshkov class frigate) when they can just order additional 22350. The cost of your modified 11356 won't be much less than 22350. In addition, they would have to repeat a lot of the testings, since it will be basically a new ship, while for 22350 they would just have to produce additional serial frigates.

    22350 frigates are only a  bit larger than 11356 and already offer all the system that you are talking about.
    Finally they finished development testing and they have a ship in service and another one will join the ranks within a couple of weeks.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:45 pm

    ...I just cant believe that no one notices how beautifully simple the ship is with lots of growth potential...

    Grigorovich-class also beautifully obsolete and any growth potential is already fulfilled and exceed in Gorshkov

    And let's not forget the most important issue of them all: No engines

    Not now, not ever

    This ship class is finished, they moved on from them long ago

    Dima
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    Post  Dima on Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:03 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Grigorovich-class also beautifully obsolete and any growth potential is already fulfilled and exceed in Gorshkov

    And let's not forget the most important issue of them all: No engines

    Not now, not ever

    This ship class is finished, they moved on from them long ago

    In one word, this kind of thought process is whats ails Russian industries and military at large.


    Dima
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    Post  Dima on Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:05 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:In their current form they are decent ships, comparable to Chinese 054A, and could be of interest to several nations.

    If they find customers (like India) that can work with the Ukraine to get the engines they can still be produced (maybe Pakistan? That would be funny).

    However, producing additional 11356 makes sense only in their current form (and for export), because once you start modifying the design a bit here and a bit there, and changing the powerplant and the weapon systems it will be a new ship, and it will cost like a new ship.

    I cannot see the point to modify the 11356 to accommodate systems (and powerplants) made for the 22350 (Gorshkov class frigate) when they can just order additional 22350. The cost of your modified 11356 won't be much less than 22350. In addition, they would have to repeat a lot of the testings, since it will be basically a new ship, while for 22350 they would just have to produce additional serial frigates.

    22350 frigates are only a  bit larger than 11356 and already offer all the system that you are talking about.
    Finally they finished development testing and they have a ship in service and another one will join the ranks within a couple of weeks.
    22350 as we see it is almost finished, neither did it go in for mass production as a successor to the large number of 1135 series that served the Soviet Navy, nor did it make any major contribution to enhancing the Russian naval fleet.

    From the looks of it, in future its going to be 20386 and 22350M (which is suppose to be around 7,000t compared to 4,500t of 22350).
    Project 22350 in its current size is finished unless export orders pop up. Probably the shortest a new Russian ship design has lasted. The same fate awaits the 20386, sooner or later they will realise its wasn't worth and will look for a new deign.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:14 pm

    The only reasons the grigorovich for the black sea were produced is because there were delays to the development and production of the Gorshkov frigates (since they wanted to have there all the newest systems, and most of them were neither mature nor even tested).

    Due to the exceptional situation, it was a good decision, since there was a ready design that was being built for india (based on a much older frigate design) in the same shipyard at that time.

    It costs half of a Gorshkov class because all the internal systems are one generation older. Once you start modifying it heavily, it will not be anymore a cheap frigate, and it will require much more fixing up and testing to be commissioned, compared to a serial 22350.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:20 pm

    Dima wrote:
    22350 as we see it is almost finished, neither did it go in for mass production as a successor to the large number of 1135 series that served the Soviet Navy, nor did it make any major contribution to enhancing the Russian naval fleet.

    From the looks of it, in future its going to be 20386 and 22350M (which is suppose to be around 7,000t compared to 4,500t of 22350).
    Project 22350 in its current size is finished unless export orders pop up. Probably the shortest a new Russian ship design has lasted. The same fate awaits the 20386, sooner or later they will realise its wasn't worth and will look for a new deign.

    2 are finished and additional 4 are in various stages of building, furthermore if there is the need (and there is) they can build more of them.

    22350M are basically destroyers, even if they want to call them heavy frigates.
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:21 pm

    Dima wrote:
    Mind that, the above stuff will make 11356 comparable to the current 22350 class or even better in terms of weaponry it can carry!
    Now, that presents another question - is it why 11356 design is not getting upgraded?

    I think you answered your own question. They will just ramp up 22350 and 22350M and put this ship below the 22350. The 22350 is a more modern platform and has already been through the looooooooong and painful integration and test phase.
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:25 pm

    Dima wrote:
    Project 22350 in its current size is finished unless export orders pop up. Probably the shortest a new Russian ship design has lasted. The same fate awaits the 20386, sooner or later they will realise its wasn't worth and will look for a new deign.

    We shall see I have heard talk of both being built, but it does not make sense to have the standard one when the M can carry so much more firepower with the same sensors and electronics for a small amount more.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:46 pm

    Well the 22350M heavy frigate/destroyer would cost more to operate than the "vanilla" 22350 and would require more people in the crew.

    In addition it would be nice if for once Russians start producing in decent number (at least 8 or 12) a successful ship project once it is finalized and fully tested. Trying always to modify it to improve it would mean having no commonality and waiting always for years to repeat the development and testing phase. The Americans built about 20 burke class destroyers before modifying the design.

    Anyway, no ship of the modified and enlarged project can be laid down before the design is finished, so it is possible than in the next couple or years a few more 22350 will be laid down, possibly also in different shipyards.  

    Yantar, as an example, should deliver to India two 11356 before 2022.

    After that, if no further export orders for taiwar/grigorovich  arrive, they could start producing 22350.

    Severnaya Verf could possibly also laid down additional 22350 in the meanwhile, ideally renouncing to producing also further 20386 (that, if necessary, could be instead produced in Pella or in Amur shipyards).
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:11 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Dima wrote:
    Project 22350 in its current size is finished unless export orders pop up. Probably the shortest a new Russian ship design has lasted. The same fate awaits the 20386, sooner or later they will realise its wasn't worth and will look for a new deign.

    We shall see I have heard talk of both being built, but it does not make sense to have the standard one when the M can carry so much more firepower with the same sensors and electronics for a small amount more.


    Both will be built

    You are forgetting difference in build time, price, operating costs and crew complement


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