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    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

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    marat


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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:09 am

    Mir wrote:
    marat wrote:
    Is it so hard to admit that this is a disaster and that all excuses are just plain bullshit?

    Yes totally! Even a hard-core Russian supporter like me thinks this is a disaster. FFS this is the flagship of the BSF!

    I am also hard core Russian supporter and Russophile, but that doesn't make me blind.

    This whole war is such a disaster, and the incompetence of the Russian military is staggering. Destroyed battalions, Herson Airport, Berdyans Port,....

    But losing Moskva...

    I feel so bad, that was one of my favorite ships.

    Russians obviously still think that they are untouchable and that they should just show themselves and the enemy will die. So many disasters in the last 45 days. The Yugoslav army in the civil war was better.

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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:39 am

    When British Fleet in WW2 lost their major ships Repulse and Prince of Weals, Churchill at least had the guts to address the nation.

    Did anybody did something like that i front of the Russian navy today? Or did the Minister of Defence do so? Or Putin?

    That is the difference, you can recognize big leaders in hard days, they do not hide they step in front of the nation....

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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:56 am

    Russian Ministry of Defense says fire at cruiser Moskva has been contained, explosions ceased, crew evacuated and the vessel is being tugged to the port

    So maybe not sink after all, but this ship is lost, probably for good.

    Unofficially casualties: 63 casualties (KIA/WIA/MIA).


    Last edited by marat on Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : info about casualties added)
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    Post  runaway Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:28 pm

    marat wrote:When British Fleet in WW2 lost their major ships Repulse and Prince of Weals, Churchill at least had the guts to address the nation.

    Did anybody did something like that i front of the Russian navy today? Or did the Minister of Defence do so? Or Putin?

    That is the difference,  you can recognize big leaders in hard days, they do not hide they step in front of the nation....

    You buy the ukr propaganda real Quick.
    Take it easy with jumping to conclusions, the Moskva is damaged thats for sure.
    But we dont know how much or if it indeed was a missile hit.

    Still, this war is a ground war, and the outcome will not be affected by this.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:28 pm

    marat wrote:

    I am also hard core Russian supporter and Russophile, but that doesn't make me blind.

    This whole war is such a disaster, and the incompetence of the Russian military is staggering. Destroyed battalions, Herson Airport, Berdyans Port,....

    But losing Moskva...

    I feel so bad, that was one of my favorite ships.

    Russians obviously still think that they are untouchable and that they should just show themselves and the enemy will die. So many disasters in the last 45 days. The Yugoslav army in the civil war was better.  

    You see when you go to war or conduct an operation like this you must expect casualties and even the odd setback. It is extremely naive to expect a war without losses. Did you know that America lost over 10 000 combat aircraft during the Vietnam War? That war lasted for 10 years which equates to 1000 combat aircraft lost each year! Russia has been going for nearly two months now and lost only a handful - but yet this war is a total disaster?!

    Maybe you should stop watching CNN dunno

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:11 pm

    I am guessing it hit a mine.

    Uran is not a bad missile, but it should be stoppable by the Moskva...

    Sea mines on the other hand are always tricky.

    Moskva Cruiser is lost Shocked Shocked .... what a bunch of incompetent idiots..... and you still dream how the Russian navy is capable to fight NATO...

    Russia needs a total reset of the whole system,.. this is nothing more than pure humiliation.

    Yeah, but then if you believe Nazi propaganda then there is no hope for you really.

    You cannot compare the Ukrainian navy with the Argentinian in 1980, Argentina had carriers, cruisers, most modern destroyers, specialized naval attack planes, and most modern antiship missiles. Their navy in 1980 was stronger than the Ukrainian navy now.

    And the presence of the Conquerer SSN meant they rarely left port... except the General Belgrano... with well known results.

    Ukraine is not even near to standards of most modern western armies, especially in the navy.

    Which just goes to show Russia just needs sea mines and anti ship missiles to defeat HATO navies and render them impotent.

    Russian navy suck... so many disasters, during peace, so huge casualties in the local war against an almost nonexisting navy.... but ok, just find excuses that will help you to be better in the future...

    This is such a dissaster, Moskva is lost this is unbelievable...

    What a coward you are.

    If it was Ukrainian missiles Russia has serius problems, if the cruiser that carries advanced anti missiles defence can be hit all other vessels could be in danger.

    The only source saying it was Ukrainian missiles is the Ukraine... nuff said.

    No, some GB vessels were sunk by Exocet fired from Super Etendard, but one ship was destroyed by the improvized land-based launcher, and many more were destroyed/damaged by air bombs and rockets. But Britain fought (and won) war 12. 000km away from their home, and without losing any critical asset. ( no carriers or nuclear submarines lost).

    They lost the ship carrying all their helicopters and some spare Sea Harriers on board... that could have been critical...

    Is it so hard to admit that this is a disaster and that all excuses are just plain bullshit?

    Guys if somebody told you 2 days ago that Moskva would be destroyed( badly damaged) by Ukraina what would your reaction be? You would call that person an idiot, wouldn't you? So isn't that clear that this is an utter disaster and total humiliation of the Russian navy?

    When you stop crying and we learn some more facts perhaps a discussion could happen, but until then just tell Zelensky to write your cheques out to your name so you can cash them nice and fast so you can spend you nazi money before the cheque bounces.

    Yes totally! Even a hard core Russian supporter like me thinks this is a disaster. FFS this is the flagship of the BSF!

    Current reports say it has not sunk.

    I am also hard core Russian supporter and Russophile, but that doesn't make me blind.

    You are making the French look good at the moment and are risking taking their title Cheese eating surrender monkey... you just need to blame Putin and you will get your CIA funding I am sure.

    I feel so bad, that was one of my favorite ships.

    In terms of air defence it is an S-300F battery with an OSA battalion and 6 Tunguska vehicles without the SA-19 SAMs loaded... great in the early 1980s... not so great now.

    That is the difference, you can recognize big leaders in hard days, they do not hide they step in front of the nation....

    There it is... you get a nuland cookie for being number one cheese eating surrender monkey... go and cry in the corner...

    Sea mines are effective weapons of war and important for Russia because it is a really good way to deny countries with lots of ships access to the sea and open ocean...

    But of course it is all Putins fault and he should resign and Russian troops should surrender... we know what honourable enemies like the Nazis will do but that is OK right?

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:31 pm

    Moskva are outdated. They should have had tor, redut and uksk to be usefull.

    I guess it's time to remove them from active service.

    This ship was more than useless in the black sea. They should have sent it in open oceans like the north or pacific where it can do what it was designed to do, hunt US ships.

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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:04 pm

    Mir wrote:
    marat wrote:

    I am also hard core Russian supporter and Russophile, but that doesn't make me blind.

    This whole war is such a disaster, and the incompetence of the Russian military is staggering. Destroyed battalions, Herson Airport, Berdyans Port,....

    But losing Moskva...

    I feel so bad, that was one of my favorite ships.

    Russians obviously still think that they are untouchable and that they should just show themselves and the enemy will die. So many disasters in the last 45 days. The Yugoslav army in the civil war was better.  

    You see when you go to war or conduct an operation like this you must expect casualties and even the odd setback. It is extremely naive to expect a war without losses. Did you know that America lost over 10 000 combat aircraft during the Vietnam War? That war lasted for 10 years which equates to 1000 combat aircraft lost each year! Russia has been going for nearly two months now and lost only a handful - but yet this war is a total disaster?!

    Maybe you should stop watching CNN dunno

    Yes that is easiest thing to to, blame others that they are victims of propaganda.... Nice try.

    Yes, USA lost 10K+ airplanes/choppers in war 60 years ago. And how many they lost in ALL wars they had after that? And how many cruisers they lost in all wars after ww2?

    What is more relevant some 60 years old experience or recent ones?


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    Post  walle83 Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:11 pm

    Isos wrote:Moskva are outdated. They should have had tor, redut and uksk to be usefull.

    I guess it's time to remove them from active service.

    This ship was more than useless in the black sea. They should have sent it in open oceans like the north or pacific where it can do what it was designed to do, hunt US ships.

    Strange that everything Russia looses is not a big deal.
    Everywhere else a loss of a large missilecruiser that acts Flagship would be a disaster.

    Imagine the US loosing a Tic cruiser under the invasion of Iraq.

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    Post  Ned86 Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:13 pm

    marat wrote:
    Yes, USA lost 10K+ airplanes/choppers in war 60 years ago.  And how many they lost in ALL wars they had after that? And how many cruisers they lost in all wars after ww2?

    What is more relevant some 60 years old experience or recent ones?

    But things is that Russia did not lose Moskva cruiser.
    We don't know yet for sure what has happened. Let's wait and see photos and then make a judgement.
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    Post  Isos Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:14 pm

    US ships got hit few times by exocet which is a similar weapon to that Neptune missile. UK navy also got annhilated by argentinian air force which had just 6 or so exocet and shitty planes.

    Good preparation, good training as well as good intel' is all you need to make a mission successful. No need for overwhelming forces.

    And we still don't know what happened here. Rumors of US awacs in the area during the attack. Could even have been a US missile.

    The ship is saved so they will find part of the missile inside if it was a missile. If it is coated with RAM technology, then kinzhal may be tested against a US carrier.

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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:I am guessing it hit a mine.

    Uran is not a bad missile, but it should be stoppable by the Moskva...

    Sea mines on the other hand are always tricky.

    Moskva Cruiser is lost Shocked  Shocked .... what a bunch of incompetent idiots..... and you still dream how the Russian navy is capable to fight NATO...

    Russia needs a total reset of the whole system,.. this is nothing more than pure humiliation.

    Yeah, but then if you believe Nazi propaganda then there is no hope for you really.

    You cannot compare the Ukrainian navy with the Argentinian in 1980, Argentina had carriers, cruisers, most modern destroyers, specialized naval attack planes, and most modern antiship missiles. Their navy in 1980 was stronger than the Ukrainian navy now.




    And the presence of the Conquerer SSN meant they rarely left port... except the General Belgrano... with well known results.

    Ukraine is not even near to standards of most modern western armies, especially in the navy.

    Which just goes to show Russia just needs sea mines and anti ship missiles to defeat HATO navies and render them impotent.

    Russian navy suck... so many disasters, during peace, so huge casualties in the local war against an almost nonexisting navy.... but ok, just find excuses that will help you to be better in the future...

    This is such a dissaster, Moskva is lost this is unbelievable...

    What a coward you are.

    If it was Ukrainian missiles Russia has serius problems, if the cruiser that carries advanced anti missiles defence can be hit all other vessels could be in danger.

    The only source saying it was Ukrainian missiles is the Ukraine... nuff said.

    No, some GB vessels were sunk by Exocet fired from Super Etendard, but one ship was destroyed by the improvized land-based launcher, and many more were destroyed/damaged by air bombs and rockets. But Britain fought (and won) war 12. 000km away from their home, and without losing any critical asset. ( no carriers or nuclear submarines lost).

    They lost the ship carrying all their helicopters and some spare Sea Harriers on board... that could have been critical...

    Is it so hard to admit that this is a disaster and that all excuses are just plain bullshit?

    Guys if somebody told you 2 days ago that Moskva would be destroyed( badly damaged) by Ukraina what would your reaction be? You would call that person an idiot, wouldn't you? So isn't that clear that this is an utter disaster and total humiliation of the Russian navy?

    When you stop crying and we learn some more facts perhaps a discussion could happen, but until then just tell Zelensky to write your cheques out to your name so you can cash them nice and fast so you can spend you nazi money before the cheque bounces.

    Yes totally! Even a hard core Russian supporter like me thinks this is a disaster. FFS this is the flagship of the BSF!

    Current reports say it has not sunk.

    I am also hard core Russian supporter and Russophile, but that doesn't make me blind.

    You are making the French look good at the moment and are risking taking their title Cheese eating surrender monkey... you just need to blame Putin and you will get your CIA funding I am sure.

    I feel so bad, that was one of my favorite ships.

    In terms of air defence it is an S-300F battery with an OSA battalion and 6 Tunguska vehicles without the SA-19 SAMs loaded... great in the early 1980s... not so great now.

    That is the difference, you can recognize big leaders in hard days, they do not hide they step in front of the nation....

    There it is... you get a nuland cookie for being number one cheese eating surrender monkey... go and cry in the corner...

    Sea mines are effective weapons of war and important for Russia because it is a really good way to deny countries with lots of ships access to the sea and open ocean...

    But of course it is all Putins fault and he should resign and Russian troops should surrender... we know what honourable enemies like the Nazis will do but that is OK right?

    Garry with usual wall of bs..... So i will just answer several things.

    1. Try to fight with arguments not with insults, you are very good with insults, but that is hardly a compliment.

    2. So Moskva wasn't damaged, and put out of action? That is ukr nazi propaganda? No sorry, that is a fact. The biggest ship of BSF is gone probably for good. Even if Ukr wasn't hit her, and i believe they did, this is a disaster for the Russian navy. But if you like fairytales keep dreaming that Moskva now is shelling Oddesa and that RuN is doing a good job. After all, they didn't lose their air carrier in this war ...jet, and we all know how many air carriers USN lost in ww2....

    3. So we have agreed that the Argentinian navy from 1980 was stronger than the Ukrainian navy in 2022. but jet brits didn't lose any crucial naval ships.
    4. Ship that you mentioned that the brits did lose was the Atlantic conveyor. That was a CIVILIAN CARGO ship. Do you really try to compare the loss of a civilian cargo ship with losing a cruiser? Notwithstanding the huge difference in potential of the Argentinian and Ukrainian navies? Yes, fairytales are for you buddy...maybe in them that cargo ship was a critical ship of the British Navy (not their Carriers, or nuclear submarines but cargo ship).


    What a coward you are.

    Very brave comment from you.....
    The general amount of insults and bs that you are using suggests that you are really lacking in arguments, so the best that you have is to claim that I am paid troll?
    So Garry boy, enjoy in your dreamland in which all who are capable to see, are blind and all keep dreaming about Emperor's new cloth that only the wise can see, and all others are paid trolls.

    PS. And try to behave like an adult....



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    marat


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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:34 pm

    Isos wrote:US ships got hit few times by exocet which is a similar weapon to that Neptune missile. UK navy also got annhilated by argentinian air force which had just 6 or so exocet and shitty planes.

    Good preparation, good training as well as good intel' is all you need to make a mission successful. No need for overwhelming forces.

    And we still don't know what happened here. Rumors of US awacs in the area during the attack. Could even have been a US missile.

    The ship is saved so they will find part of the missile inside if it was a missile. If it is coated with RAM technology, then kinzhal may be tested against a US carrier.

    US ships were hit once with Exocet 30 years ago iirc, and that was a frigate, not a cruiser, and they saved that ship. And in that situation, US ship wasn't at war.
    Super Etendard was one of the most successful antiship aircraft in recent history. You may not like it, but his carries were good. He did job for which it was made, in real wars.

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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:40 pm

    Ned86 wrote:
    marat wrote:
    Yes, USA lost 10K+ airplanes/choppers in war 60 years ago.  And how many they lost in ALL wars they had after that? And how many cruisers they lost in all wars after ww2?

    What is more relevant some 60 years old experience or recent ones?

    But things is that Russia did not lose Moskva cruiser.
    We don't know yet for sure what has happened. Let's wait and see photos and then make a judgement.

    Well even Russians confirmed that ship was damaged, that she had internal explosions dangerous enough to force the evacuation of the crew.

    Whatever was the cause of them, hostile attack or internal explosion, the result is the same, huge loss for RuN, loss of asset (flag ship not by accident), and reputation.

    Russians are not even near to building anything similar in potential and size of the Slava class.
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:42 pm

    marat wrote:[

    Yes that is easiest thing to to, blame others that they are victims of propaganda.... Nice try.

    Yes, USA lost 10K+ airplanes/choppers in war 60 years ago.  And how many they lost in ALL wars they had after that? And how many cruisers they lost in all wars after ww2?

    What is more relevant some 60 years old experience or recent ones?


    Weak concern trolling. US lost 6k dead, trillions of dollars just pwhoof and left the Taliban $ 84 billion dollars in hardware. No one's topping that for a very, very, long time.

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    Post  Mir Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:45 pm

    marat wrote:

    Yes that is easiest thing to to, blame others that they are victims of propaganda.... Nice try.

    Yes, USA lost 10K+ airplanes/choppers in war 60 years ago.  And how many they lost in ALL wars they had after that? And how many cruisers they lost in all wars after ww2?

    What is more relevant some 60 years old experience or recent ones?

    Yes Vietnam is was a nightmare for the US and is something you trolls rather want to forget. The Vietnamese was regarded as primitive beings by the US but the reality is that they were beaten to a pulp by a Third World country. You can try and forget this all you want, but it happened. Interestingly that war was also based on a lie (Gulf of Tonkin incident) but a more recent example was the War on Iraq (WMD lie) but there are plenty more samples - failure to learn from history is a fatal mistake. >>

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    Last edited by Mir on Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:46 pm

    Isos wrote:Moskva are outdated. They should have had tor, redut and uksk to be usefull.

    I guess it's time to remove them from active service.

    This ship was more than useless in the black sea. They should have sent it in open oceans like the north or pacific where it can do what it was designed to do, hunt US ships.

    Oh, great, she is outdated, so actually, this is great that the Russian navy lost it...


    And yes in open sea against real navy, there they will show how great they are, here in Black See, in their own backyard... meh not a good place to prove yourself worthy ...

    You are a bit underrated for this event don't you think? Does that really make you feel better?

    Hic Rodos, hic salta.
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    Post  Mir Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:52 pm

    @Marat

    The USS Cole (DDG 67) came very close to being lost on October 12, 2000.

    During the 60's the US also came very close to loosing three carriers due to accidents. One was the then flagship nuclear carrier USS Enterprise.

    Shit happens >>

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    Post  Isos Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:13 pm

    marat wrote:
    Isos wrote:US ships got hit few times by exocet which is a similar weapon to that Neptune missile. UK navy also got annhilated by argentinian air force which had just 6 or so exocet and shitty planes.

    Good preparation, good training as well as good intel' is all you need to make a mission successful. No need for overwhelming forces.

    And we still don't know what happened here. Rumors of US awacs in the area during the attack. Could even have been a US missile.

    The ship is saved so they will find part of the missile inside if it was a missile. If it is coated with RAM technology, then kinzhal may be tested against a US carrier.

    US ships were hit once with Exocet 30 years ago iirc, and that was a frigate, not a cruiser, and they saved that ship. And in that situation, US ship wasn't at war.
    Super Etendard was one of the most successful antiship aircraft in recent history. You may not like it, but his carries were good. He did job for which it was made, in real wars.


    A frigate armed with AD missiles.

    Super etandard sucks. They had few of them in service, maybe 4 if I'm not wrong. They were facing british navy supported by Harriers from carriers.

    The exocet had a 40km range, they had 6 missiles or so and 4 planes carrying it so the probability to be able to make such successful attack was bar far less important than ukrainian launching a modern missile with 100+km range with data from US awacs at a ship off their coast.

    Oh, great, she is outdated, so actually, this is great that the Russian navy lost it...


    And yes in open sea against real navy, there they will show how great they are, here in Black See, in their own backyard... meh not a good place to prove yourself worthy ...

    You are a bit underrated for this event don't you think? Does that really make you feel better?

    It is not great they lost it but its service life came to end. Even without this accident they would have removed her from service in few years. And again it's totally useless in the black sea.

    They need more karakurt and Grigorovitch frigates there.

    Grigorovitch is the most successful ship in russian service. Far more impressed by it than by Gorshkov or any other. It does everything at low cost and does it very well. They should order 6 more.

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    Post  mnztr Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:24 pm

    marat wrote:
    Isos wrote:US ships got hit few times by exocet which is a similar weapon to that Neptune missile. UK navy also got annhilated by argentinian air force which had just 6 or so exocet and shitty planes.

    Good preparation, good training as well as good intel' is all you need to make a mission successful. No need for overwhelming forces.

    And we still don't know what happened here. Rumors of US awacs in the area during the attack. Could even have been a US missile.

    The ship is saved so they will find part of the missile inside if it was a missile. If it is coated with RAM technology, then kinzhal may be tested against a US carrier.

    US ships were hit once with Exocet 30 years ago iirc, and that was a frigate, not a cruiser, and they saved that ship. And in that situation, US ship wasn't at war.
    Super Etendard was one of the most successful antiship aircraft in recent history. You may not like it, but his carries were good. He did job for which it was made, in real wars.


    The Stark was not hit by a Super Etendard, but a private jet that was modified to carry the missile. It was no accident that Stark was hit.
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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:59 pm

    So Moscow sunk.....
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    Post  runaway Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:01 pm

    marat wrote:So Moscow sunk.....

    Source?
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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:04 pm

    Now I will see walls of explanations how losing a cruiser:

    1) is not some big issue, she was outdated anyway
    2) how Russia could defeat the NATO navy without Moskva easier
    3) How I am just paid troll because I am upset
    4) how the Russian navy, Russian ships, and leadership are the best in the world
    5) how I am coward
    6) How the USA lost many cruisers in WW2 and many machineguns in WW1, so losing Moskva isn big deal.



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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:05 pm

    runaway wrote:
    marat wrote:So Moscow sunk.....

    Source?
    Check TW
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    Post  marat Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:09 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    marat wrote:
    Isos wrote:US ships got hit few times by exocet which is a similar weapon to that Neptune missile. UK navy also got annhilated by argentinian air force which had just 6 or so exocet and shitty planes.

    Good preparation, good training as well as good intel' is all you need to make a mission successful. No need for overwhelming forces.

    And we still don't know what happened here. Rumors of US awacs in the area during the attack. Could even have been a US missile.

    The ship is saved so they will find part of the missile inside if it was a missile. If it is coated with RAM technology, then kinzhal may be tested against a US carrier.

    US ships were hit once with Exocet 30 years ago iirc, and that was a frigate, not a cruiser, and they saved that ship. And in that situation, US ship wasn't at war.
    Super Etendard was one of the most successful antiship aircraft in recent history. You may not like it, but his carries were good. He did job for which it was made, in real wars.


    The Stark was not hit by a Super Etendard, but a private jet that was modified to carry the missile. It was no accident that Stark was hit.

    nither i claimed that Stark was hit by S. Etendard. But i did claim that S.  Etendard was a great plane that had a successful career. And it was.

    More succesful then Slavac class thats for sure. I do not blame ships, they are great...

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