Copyright of Foreign Military technology

Well i read during yeltsin era american tried to get their hands on soviet weapons . Russia gave/sold them sunburn anti ship missiles etc . So is it possible they might have stolen/copied secrets of Tochka .

max steel wrote:Well i read during yeltsin era american tried to get their hands on soviet weapons . Russia gave/sold them sunburn anti ship  missiles etc . So is it possible they might have stolen/copied secrets of Tochka .

They got their hands on a few russian weapons. T-80U, MSTA-S, Kontakt-5, MiG29 and T-72AV from GDR and what not.

Werewolf wrote:

max steel wrote:Well i read during yeltsin era american tried to get their hands on soviet weapons . Russia gave/sold them sunburn anti ship  missiles etc . So is it possible they might have stolen/copied secrets of Tochka .

They got their hands on a few russian weapons. T-80U, MSTA-S, Kontakt-5, MiG29 and T-72AV from GDR and what not.

Severely downgraded versions...

Shit . They took full advantage of soviet downfall . Do russia use those weapons now ?


They almost got their hands on Shkval designs too .

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

max steel wrote:Well i read during yeltsin era american tried to get their hands on soviet weapons . Russia gave/sold them sunburn anti ship  missiles etc . So is it possible they might have stolen/copied secrets of Tochka .

They got their hands on a few russian weapons. T-80U, MSTA-S, Kontakt-5, MiG29 and T-72AV from GDR and what not.

Severely downgraded versions...

There were never any downgraded T-80U's nor MSTA-S, the MiG-29 was 9.21b and T-72AV was kontakt1 and older versions.

And thanks Max... so often we hear from pro US strong crew about how this new Russian system looks like that old US programme... well now Americas new super bunker buster is an R-37M AAM with the tail fins of an R-77, or indeed Tochka- SSM.

Who is copying who now... but I am sure it is only coincidence or some other such excuse...

Wow, they're actually aerodynamically identical. The US copied a Soviet weapon from the mid 70's, stuck a hardened nose on it, and dropped it from a plane.

To GaryB


Actually they did . KH-31PM, a missile that is already very well known in the U.S. Navy. The KH-31 was a missile that the American fleet bought from Russia in the 1990s as a target missile for developing ships' anti-aircraft systems.

The Americans used the KH-31PM to learn how to hit the Chinese 3M-54 Moskit anti-ship missiles, angry which had been produced by Russia. In the West the Moskit is codenamed “Sunburn”, due to its speed of over 1,700 mph and its all-destructive potential: No warship is currently capable of evading this missile.


But the new KH-31PM has an increased range of 160 miles. It also has a new guidance system and engine, which make its flight more unpredictable and deadlier for the adversary.

max steel wrote:  To GaryB


Actually they did . KH-31PM, a missile that is already very well known in the U.S. Navy. The KH-31 was a missile that the American fleet bought from Russia in the 1990s as a target missile for developing ships' anti-aircraft systems.

The Americans used the KH-31PM to learn how to hit the Chinese 3M-54 Moskit anti-ship missiles, angry which had been produced by Russia. In the West the Moskit is codenamed “Sunburn”, due to its speed of over 1,700 mph and its all-destructive potential: No warship is currently capable of evading this missile.


But the new KH-31PM has an increased range of 160 miles. It also has a new guidance system and engine, which make its flight more unpredictable and deadlier for the adversary.

You can only come to that conclusion if wikipedia is your main source...in reality the missiles they sold were likely nothing like the real Kh-31. It's standard Soviet/Russian policy that their military exports have to be significantly different and downgraded. The level of downgrades is greatly dependent on what the political relationship the 'buying country' has with the USSR/Russia.

A perfect example is the differences between T-72's sold to East Germany and T-72's sold to Iraq. Because East Germany was a close military ally to the USSR they got downgraded but yet still better than the average T-72's sold for export, while Iraq was not a close ally to the USSR and was an enemy of a close USSR ally (Syria), they bought severally downgraded T-72's (with horrendously poor ammunition).

The end result was the Iraqi T-72's, and even worse performing unlicensed T-72 copies named 'Assad Babils' aka 'Lion of Babel' were utterly annihilated in the Gulf War. Meanwhile when East Germany re-assimilated with West Germany, East German T-72's were used in testing on a armor battleground IIRC in West Germany. They tested the best and latest APFSDS rounds (circa early 1990's) and found that the Kontact ERA fitted for East Germany tanks were vastly superior to any ERA fitted to Iraqi T-72's. The East German T-72's were so much more superior to Iraqi T-72's, that the APFSDS used in testing were found to be completely worthless when it came to penetrating the hulls of East German T-72's. The Kontact ERA sold to East German T-72's rendered their MBT's nearly invulnerable to the best Kinetic penetraters at the disposal of the entirety of NATO, which forced NATO to completely re-design their KE rounds!

magnumcromagnon wrote:

max steel wrote:  To GaryB


Actually they did . KH-31PM, a missile that is already very well known in the U.S. Navy. The KH-31 was a missile that the American fleet bought from Russia in the 1990s as a target missile for developing ships' anti-aircraft systems.

The Americans used the KH-31PM to learn how to hit the Chinese 3M-54 Moskit anti-ship missiles, angry which had been produced by Russia. In the West the Moskit is codenamed “Sunburn”, due to its speed of over 1,700 mph and its all-destructive potential: No warship is currently capable of evading this missile.


But the new KH-31PM has an increased range of 160 miles. It also has a new guidance system and engine, which make its flight more unpredictable and deadlier for the adversary.

You can only come to that conclusion if wikipedia is your main source...in reality the missiles they sold were likely nothing like the real Kh-31. It's standard Soviet/Russian policy that their military exports have to be significantly different and downgraded. The level of downgrades is greatly dependent on what the political relationship the 'buying country' has with the USSR/Russia.

A perfect example is the differences between T-72's sold to East Germany and T-72's sold to Iraq. Because East Germany was a close military ally to the USSR they got downgraded but yet still better than the average T-72's sold for export, while Iraq was not a close ally to the USSR and was an enemy of a close USSR ally (Syria), they bought severally downgraded T-72's (with horrendously poor ammunition).

The end result was the Iraqi T-72's, and even worse performing unlicensed T-72 copies named 'Assad Babils' aka 'Lion of Babel' were utterly annihilated in the Gulf War. Meanwhile when East Germany re-assimilated with West Germany, East German T-72's were used in testing on a armor battleground IIRC in West Germany. They tested the best and latest APFSDS rounds (circa early 1990's) and found that the Kontact ERA fitted for East Germany tanks were vastly superior to any ERA fitted to Iraqi T-72's. The East German T-72's were so much more superior to Iraqi T-72's, that the APFSDS used in testing were found to be completely worthless when it came to penetrating the hulls of East German T-72's. The Kontact ERA sold to East German T-72's rendered their MBT's nearly invulnerable to best Kinetic perpetrators at the disposal of the entirety of NATO, which forced NATO to completely re-design their KE rounds!

Iraqi's never had ERA and they did not have composite armor, RHA steel was the best they got on their T-55 and T-72M1 while the Assad Babils were made of HHA steel which had literally no protective capability even against the weakest rounds, even HE shells were cracking them open.

Werewolf wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

max steel wrote:  To GaryB


Actually they did . KH-31PM, a missile that is already very well known in the U.S. Navy. The KH-31 was a missile that the American fleet bought from Russia in the 1990s as a target missile for developing ships' anti-aircraft systems.

The Americans used the KH-31PM to learn how to hit the Chinese 3M-54 Moskit anti-ship missiles, angry which had been produced by Russia. In the West the Moskit is codenamed “Sunburn”, due to its speed of over 1,700 mph and its all-destructive potential: No warship is currently capable of evading this missile.


But the new KH-31PM has an increased range of 160 miles. It also has a new guidance system and engine, which make its flight more unpredictable and deadlier for the adversary.

You can only come to that conclusion if wikipedia is your main source...in reality the missiles they sold were likely nothing like the real Kh-31. It's standard Soviet/Russian policy that their military exports have to be significantly different and downgraded. The level of downgrades is greatly dependent on what the political relationship the 'buying country' has with the USSR/Russia.

A perfect example is the differences between T-72's sold to East Germany and T-72's sold to Iraq. Because East Germany was a close military ally to the USSR they got downgraded but yet still better than the average T-72's sold for export, while Iraq was not a close ally to the USSR and was an enemy of a close USSR ally (Syria), they bought severally downgraded T-72's (with horrendously poor ammunition).

The end result was the Iraqi T-72's, and even worse performing unlicensed T-72 copies named 'Assad Babils' aka 'Lion of Babel' were utterly annihilated in the Gulf War. Meanwhile when East Germany re-assimilated with West Germany, East German T-72's were used in testing on a armor battleground IIRC in West Germany. They tested the best and latest APFSDS rounds (circa early 1990's) and found that the Kontact ERA fitted for East Germany tanks were vastly superior to any ERA fitted to Iraqi T-72's. The East German T-72's were so much more superior to Iraqi T-72's, that the APFSDS used in testing were found to be completely worthless when it came to penetrating the hulls of East German T-72's. The Kontact ERA sold to East German T-72's rendered their MBT's nearly invulnerable to best Kinetic perpetrators at the disposal of the entirety of NATO, which forced NATO to completely re-design their KE rounds!

Iraqi's never had ERA and they did not have composite armor, RHA steel was the best they got on their T-55 and T-72M1 while the Assad Babils were made of HHA steel which had literally no protective capability even against the weakest rounds, even HE shells were cracking them open.

OK, thanks for the correction.

Russia should never sell armata to anyone.. same with Pak-FA or you will see it stolen in no time
by a bribed soldiers by US and or reverse engineered .

Vann7 wrote:

Russia should never sell armata to anyone.. same with Pak-FA or you will see it stolen in no time
by a bribed soldiers by US and or reverse engineered .

Consider this that in time Russians will perfect and improve whet is now. Something like like selling T-72 whne you have T-90MS.

Selling Armata keeps factories and R&D running and keeps customer base. BTW High Tech is not that easy to reverse engineer

Problem: it's undeniable that the Ztz96G performed better than the T-72B4 in tank biathlon. Anyway, it seems to be, during the firing sequence, but, apparently the T-72B4 exploded the ztz in mobility, chinese even had to use a 2nd tank because the first had serious engine issue...

But the Ztz litterally run super fast while shooting and apparently hitting targets, but the T-72B4 had to move very slowly... Still, the russian team won the match overall.

It says something: either the russians prefer to slow down to shoot, because it's an old tactic etc... Or, the Ztz96G has much better stabilizer and somehow, FCS... I don't know... And frankly, i don't know if T-72B4 FCS and all stuff is worse than T-90A, which would make T-90A also worse than chinese tank.

Have you seen the inside of any current chinese tank? ztz96G, ztz99G, mbt3000... They have automatic transmission, digitalised drive, etc full informatized elements. No russian tank beside T-90MS and T-14 have such things.

Now, maybe all this shiny crap is total garbage and unreliable in chinese tanks... but still, they have it... one thing is for sure though, their engines either totally suck, of they must carbon copy german engines to have something useable.

And the armour, is not as good as T-90A / Object 187 type armour... No way. The chinese tanks have a other way to protect their tank, and, it's just not as good, besides, composite blocks are probably worse, and ERA too.

Other problem: their gun and autoloader are sure as hell not as good as the current russian standard 2A46M5 and related T-90A modified autoloader. Not even speaking of 2A82.

Ammo? I don't know, their claims of 900mm pen APFSDS are totally bogus, i think current russian Svinets (BM48 or seomthing) totally dwarfs any chinese APFSDS. Also, i can't see their ATGM being better than the russian Refleks 9M119M.

I think chinese tanks (modern) are quite good, i think russia should by one sample of each 3 tanks, i can't see china refusing... Or, they must buy them using a bribe to some country who wants to buy them... problem is, i can't see which...

Russia already has T-64BM bulat , i wish russia could pick up most tanks and learn from them


Really the ZtZ96G FCS is a copy of the one on the M60A1 ??? tell me more

From what I can tell the -96 does not have a great FCS outside of the two thermals, one for both the commander and gunner. 

The FCS/stabilization-system as a whole are not all that advanced and have been fielded for at least 2 decades. -  ISFCS-212

cracker wrote:Problem: it's undeniable that the Ztz96G performed better than the T-72B4 in tank biathlon. Anyway, it seems to be, during the firing sequence, but, apparently the T-72B4 exploded the ztz in mobility, chinese even had to use a 2nd tank because the first had serious engine issue...

But the Ztz litterally run super fast while shooting and apparently hitting targets, but the T-72B4 had to move very slowly... Still, the russian team won the match overall.

It says something: either the russians prefer to slow down to shoot, because it's an old tactic etc... Or, the Ztz96G has much better stabilizer and somehow, FCS... I don't know... And frankly, i don't know if T-72B4 FCS and all stuff is worse than T-90A, which would make T-90A also worse than chinese tank.

Have you seen the inside of any current chinese tank? ztz96G, ztz99G, mbt3000... They have automatic transmission, digitalised drive, etc full informatized elements. No russian tank beside T-90MS and T-14 have such things.

Now, maybe all this shiny crap is total garbage and unreliable in chinese tanks... but still, they have it... one thing is for sure though, their engines either totally suck, of they must carbon copy german engines to have something useable.

And the armour, is not as good as T-90A / Object 187 type armour... No way. The chinese tanks have a other way to protect their tank, and, it's just not as good, besides, composite blocks are probably worse, and ERA too.

Other problem: their gun and autoloader are sure as hell not as good as the current russian standard 2A46M5 and related T-90A modified autoloader. Not even speaking of 2A82.

Ammo? I don't know, their claims of 900mm pen APFSDS are totally bogus, i think current russian Svinets (BM48 or seomthing) totally dwarfs any chinese APFSDS. Also, i can't see their ATGM being better than the russian Refleks 9M119M.

I think chinese tanks (modern) are quite good, i think russia should by one sample of each 3 tanks, i can't see china refusing... Or, they must buy them using a bribe to some country who wants to buy them... problem is, i can't see which...

Russia already has T-64BM bulat , i wish russia could pick up most tanks and learn from them


Really the ZtZ96G FCS is a copy of the one on the M60A1 ??? tell me more

Check thé Type 85II & III dev.

The base computer is the British version of the M21 FCS from the M60A2/3 that initially was sold to Pakistan. Since China was under embargo from 1989's Tian An Men, most of the upgrades, especially regarding the solid state electronics were simply either sourced via Pakistan or obtained by going around the Embargo by buying most items through dual use processes.

Now the T96G FCS splashed the place, too bad last year Armenia was as effective as the T96G (both 77%) and Armenia had a T72B...so what's going on here? Armenian Brain equal to Jewish Hyperphysics? Nope simply the targets on the Biathlon are roughly  the same and the crews just have learnt their aiming process.

Worse again, how many Chinese tanks are really those M1 copies? Lemme tell you, those who are used for photoshoots.  This is a 96's interior... http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f7e_1411403328

The 99G I agree is a different beast, but said before, the 99G is the exception to the rule...

cracker wrote:Problem: it's undeniable that the Ztz96G performed better than the T-72B4 in tank biathlon. Anyway, it seems to be, during the firing sequence, but, apparently the T-72B4 exploded the ztz in mobility, chinese even had to use a 2nd tank because the first had serious engine issue...

bushwa. one tank conked out- that seriously counts against its performance.

cracker wrote:
But the Ztz litterally run super fast while shooting and apparently hitting targets, but the T-72B4 had to move very slowly... Still, the russian team won the match overall.

haha, you make me laugh. super fast relative to what? the very first film cameras , to an apfsds it might as well be standing still.

cracker wrote:
It says something: either the russians prefer to slow down to shoot, because it's an old tactic etc... Or, the Ztz96G has much better stabilizer and somehow, FCS... I don't know... And frankly, i don't know if T-72B4 FCS and all stuff is worse than T-90A, which would make T-90A also worse than chinese tank.

afaik the FCS is untouched except for the new panoramic thermal sight, so the deficient stabilizers from the T-72B are still there. stopping to fire every now and then also isnt much of an issue as you think. the stoppage only lasts for a very brief moment and then off you go. helps that the engine is a lot more powerful- the speed lost to slowing down is quickly regained.

cracker wrote:
Have you seen the inside of any current chinese tank? ztz96G, ztz99G, mbt3000... They have automatic transmission, digitalised drive, etc full informatized elements. No russian tank beside T-90MS and T-14 have such things.

thats because they splurged on the hard essentials first and left no money for the bling.

cracker wrote:
I think chinese tanks (modern) are quite good, i think russia should by one sample of each 3 tanks, i can't see china refusing... Or, they must buy them using a bribe to some country who wants to buy them... problem is, i can't see which...

why? they are moving on to armatas- anything less is literally a fcking step backwards.

i mean, just to collect and be aware of others' technology

US have stolen so many T-80U and T-72B, even probably all T-64 models and T-80B... I think it's time for revenge, i hope someday russia will stole leopard 2 and M1 abrams, and also a chinese tank. They already have the T-64BM, but, that's nothing new for Russia... a T-64B with T-80U electronics... but, maybe the era Nozh was interestin to analyse.

Russia could do something with greece to obtain a Leo2A6Hel, Russia, greece... brothers... and... Greece needs money

Russia could obtain some M1 arbrams from egypt or iraq, if not already done... Too bad it's not a full modern US army standard.

cracker wrote:i mean, just to collect and be aware of others' technology  

US have stolen so many T-80U and T-72B, even probably all T-64 models and T-80B... I think it's time for revenge, i hope someday russia will stole leopard 2 and M1 abrams, and also a chinese tank. They already have the T-64BM, but, that's nothing new for Russia... a T-64B with T-80U electronics... but, maybe the era Nozh was interestin to analyse.

Russia could do something with greece to obtain a Leo2A6Hel, Russia, greece... brothers... and... Greece needs money

Russia could obtain some M1 arbrams from egypt or iraq, if not already done... Too bad it's not a full modern US army standard.

No point in being aware of inferior technology...

Mike E wrote:

cracker wrote:i mean, just to collect and be aware of others' technology  

US have stolen so many T-80U and T-72B, even probably all T-64 models and T-80B... I think it's time for revenge, i hope someday russia will stole leopard 2 and M1 abrams, and also a chinese tank. They already have the T-64BM, but, that's nothing new for Russia... a T-64B with T-80U electronics... but, maybe the era Nozh was interestin to analyse.

Russia could do something with greece to obtain a Leo2A6Hel, Russia, greece... brothers... and... Greece needs money

Russia could obtain some M1 arbrams from egypt or iraq, if not already done... Too bad it's not a full modern US army standard.

No point in being aware of inferior technology...

The MoD might have an Egyptian or an Iraqi M1A1 stashed away somewhere just like that photo of the T-64BM. Wouldn't surprise me if they even had F-16s from the said countries.

There might be nothing to learn conceptually from the M1, but Russia's military could use the M1 for a variety of things. For example, Russia could use the tank to optimize the rounds that frontline tanks will carry.

cracker wrote:i mean, just to collect and be aware of others' technology  

US have stolen so many T-80U and T-72B, even probably all T-64 models and T-80B... I think it's time for revenge, i hope someday russia will stole leopard 2 and M1 abrams, and also a chinese tank. They already have the T-64BM, but, that's nothing new for Russia... a T-64B with T-80U electronics... but, maybe the era Nozh was interestin to analyse.

Russia could do something with greece to obtain a Leo2A6Hel, Russia, greece... brothers... and... Greece needs money

Russia could obtain some M1 arbrams from egypt or iraq, if not already done... Too bad it's not a full modern US army standard.

Russia has had M60 A1 since forever it didn't address some of its own tank design "deficiencies". Since the fall of the USSR many things are known too wrt to the M60A3 and all the Magach series (Dat Jewish Diaspora). Russia also had had its hands on various elements to modernize its tanks ( From TURMS upgrade to the Elbit modifications). All this is not something out of the blue...Italians for instance were always open to biz regarding the Selex upgrades. Russia chose France...

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

Mike E wrote:

cracker wrote:i mean, just to collect and be aware of others' technology  

US have stolen so many T-80U and T-72B, even probably all T-64 models and T-80B... I think it's time for revenge, i hope someday russia will stole leopard 2 and M1 abrams, and also a chinese tank. They already have the T-64BM, but, that's nothing new for Russia... a T-64B with T-80U electronics... but, maybe the era Nozh was interestin to analyse.

Russia could do something with greece to obtain a Leo2A6Hel, Russia, greece... brothers... and... Greece needs money

Russia could obtain some M1 arbrams from egypt or iraq, if not already done... Too bad it's not a full modern US army standard.

No point in being aware of inferior technology...

The MoD might have an Egyptian or an Iraqi M1A1 stashed away somewhere just like that photo of the T-64BM. Wouldn't surprise me if they even had F-16s from the said countries.

There might be nothing to learn conceptually from the M1, but Russia's military could use the M1 for a variety of things. For example, Russia could use the tank to optimize the rounds that frontline tanks will carry.

there really is very little to "learn" from Iraqi or Egyptian M1s. Stuff that the Russian designers and military have been fully aware of for decades. Finding out information about the vaunted "M1A3" programme is probably where Russian interest lies.

And even then.... 

The A3 will just be an engine-swap and weight-loss change. It will get a 1500 hp diesel, and lose a few tons...*thats it*

Everything else will be a minor change.