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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:31 pm

    Dima wrote:
    xeno wrote:So the so called 8.4k tons displacement for 11711M is actually standard displacement, which means the full displacement should be around 10k tons.
    Very impressed...
    Not sure about the 10K displacement full load.
    The brochure spec mentioned it as 8,000t full displacement, maybe ~8,500t max.
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Pr_11710

    As for the ships itself, considering the state in which the Russia Navy finds itself in, this is good. But my preference would have been the revival of Pr.1174 or a class which offered similar capacity.

    Why? This modified class is similar to the san Giorgio class and from the information available seems to have good capabilities. As far as the 1174 where is the need? They even retired those hull relatively early.

    Anyway, they are building two new amphibious assault ships (helo carriers) in Zaliv with a displacement 2 to 3 times larger than 1174... and those two ships are even carrying the same name as two of the 1174... so they are (also) replacing those, while offering much greater capabilities.
    PapaDragon
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:32 pm

    Dima wrote:
    As for the ships itself, considering the state in which the Russia Navy finds itself in, this is good. But my preference would have been the revival of Pr.1174 or a class which offered similar capacity....

    No way, those things as dinosaurs

    Stock Gren would be better solution, hell even restarting Ropuchas would have been more efficient

    And who knows how many Ukrainian parts 1174s have, those are straight from the 70s

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:44 pm

    it would cost way more money than its worth to bring Ivan's back into service assuming they even could.

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    GarryB
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:26 am

    But my preference would have been the revival of Pr.1174 or a class which offered similar capacity.

    Would be redundant to bring the Ivan Rogovs back into service, and the fact that they have laid down two new ships reportedly in the 40K ton class and one of them is called the Ivan Rogov I suspect they will take their place, so the second option of your wish seems to be going to be granted...
    Dima
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Dima Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:Would be redundant to bring the Ivan Rogovs back into service, and the fact that they have laid down two new ships reportedly in the 40K ton class and one of them is called the Ivan Rogov I suspect they will take their place, so the second option of your wish seems to be going to be granted...
    I think my use of "revival" created all the confusions. Sorry about that.
    What I meant was, not to resurrect the old 1174s, but to have a new ship based on a revised/optimised design/capacity of 1174.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:22 pm

    Dima wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Would be redundant to bring the Ivan Rogovs back into service, and the fact that they have laid down two new ships reportedly in the 40K ton class and one of them is called the Ivan Rogov I suspect they will take their place, so the second option of your wish seems to be going to be granted...
    I think my use of "revival" created all the confusions. Sorry about that.
    What I meant was, not to resurrect the old 1174s, but to have a new ship based on a revised/optimised design/capacity of 1174.

    they are already doing that with the upgraded Gren's.
    Dima
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    Post  Dima Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:56 pm


    Pr.1174 deploying its two Lebed off South Yemen in 1979.
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Pr_11711

    The above is what represents 1174.
    500+ marines + 40+ MBTs Or 80+ APCs (both of which when well deck is utilized).
    Unfortunately not many realize or appreciates what's at your disposal, inhouse, the result being - Russian Navy is still 4-5 years away from getting similar capability.

    It's a capability that was left to decay 30 years ago, but was recoverable even a decade back (with a revised/optimised design) until the disaster struck in the form of Mistral deal in 2011.

    The lust for Mistral deal in certain quarters & the bad, myopic decisions earlier made, which resulted in 11711 Ivan Gren (partly as a result of funding issues for "large" projects/undertakings during those years), made sure no one even bothered (?) to pursue a revised/optimised 1174 design.

    If the highly inadequate 11711 Ivan Gren project could be salvaged with a new scaled up & more capable 11711, there was pretty much that could have been done with the 1174... if not for the myopic decisions made under those very rough years.

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Yantar-Shipyard-Unveils-Design-of-Improved-Project-11711-Ivan-Gren-class-LST-2-1024x578

    Don't want the topic diverted from the new 11711. So ending it here.

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:14 pm

    Eh they can carry a bit more tanks but the Russian army isn't the size of the Red Army, when the Rogov's were made the red army was like what 4M men strong?

    So having 15k ton landing ships as standard doesn't make sense cost-wise when your army is nowhere near that size, doesn't even make sense operational-wise. The Russians have no need for basic landing ships that large, they do not have the manpower or budget to really justify it.

    They are also laying down helio carriers and the 8k Gren's will work alongside those.

    8k Gren is more than enough for the Russians requirements.

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    LMFS
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  LMFS Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:38 pm

    A standard Gren can land just a battalion and an upgraded one two, but without the being able to house all the manpower long term. Of course they need more and bigger vessels in order to gain critical numerical advantage at the decisive initial phases of a landing operation...

    As to the need of making such operations, soon enough (if the shit really hits the fan) we could see Russia considering to land in Odessa if the ukies decide to retaliate for what happens in Donbass by attacking their forces in Transnistria. They need to be ready for such eventualities.
    GarryB
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:51 pm

    They are making two 40K ton helicopter landing ships that can easily replicate and replace what the old Ivan Rogov ships did.

    The Ivan Gren is to replace all the smaller landing ships like the Alligator and Rogov class boats...
    Russian_Patriot_
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty The hull of the upgraded "lander" for the Russian Navy will be formed before the end of the year.

    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:43 am

    The hull of the upgraded "lander" for the Russian Navy will be formed before the end of the year. 

    The hull of the lead large landing ship of the upgraded project 11711 will be formed before the end of 2021. This was announced to TASS during the International Naval Salon by Ilya Samarin, General Director of the Baltic Shipyard Yantar.

    "By the end of 2021, it is planned to form the hull of the lead ship on the slipway," he said.

    According to him, the construction of two large landing ships "Vladimir Andreev" and "Vasily Trushin" is carried out in accordance with the technical project approved in 2020. "The plant tries to meet the deadlines set by the general schedule and production program. By the end of 2021, it is planned to complete the production of working and design documentation, contract the entire volume of component equipment, products and systems, and form the hull of the lead ship on the slipway."

    Initially, the plant built two large landing ships project 11711 "Ivan Gren" and "Peter Morgunov". They were transferred to the Russian Navy. On April 23, 2019, in a video conference mode, in which Russian President Vladimir Putin took part while at Severnaya Verf, the plant held a groundbreaking ceremony for two large landing ships modernized project 11711 "Vladimir Andreev"and" Vasily Trushin".

    As stated by officials, in particular the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexey Rakhmanov, the large landing ship of the upgraded project will differ from their predecessors in large displacement. They will be distinguished by a new superstructure-one instead of two, as well as the ability to carry combat helicopters.

    Source: https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11736137
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 94tr_i10
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Zj5fle10

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:33 pm


    Possible ''on the fly'' revision of new Ivan Gren ships:
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 25-9819185-11711-s-303-preliminary-view-01

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 25-9819189-11711-s-303-preliminary-view-02

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:37 pm

    Some shtil launcher can be added on the front to turn it into an air defence ship when not used for landing ops.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:28 pm

    Isos wrote:Some shtil launcher can be added on the front to turn it into an air defence ship when not used for landing ops.

    For now lets just get them in the water and running, VMF is getting short on transports

    They can worry about after sales upgrades later

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    Mir
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Mir Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:47 am

    Isos wrote:Some shtil launcher can be added on the front to turn it into an air defence ship when not used for landing ops.

    They should upgrade the air defense of this class. It is pretty mediocre as is. Thors would be great.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:15 pm


    Yantar shipyard completed the formation of the hull of the ship Vladimir Andreev in the slipway shop, further construction will be continued in open slipway

    https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/33652.html

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 9009294_original

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 700__288_vladimir_andreev_1


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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:04 pm

    Can't work out if she is north or south bound past Dover on Monday. Was she in St Petersburg? If so could be southbound heading perhaps for a bit of Syrian Express shakedown


    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 E7xjHE8X0AMmMHw?format=jpg&name=medium

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:27 am

    You would think they could get much clearer and higher quality images seeing as how it is a Russian ship so clearly deep in UK territorial waters... it is almost like they are respecting international law and remaining in international waters... weird... Razz

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:14 am

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 E7xjHE8X0AMmMHw?format=jpg&name=medium

    It looks like the mighty world-spanning Royal Navy has dispatched one of its famous & greatly-feared... err...  car ferries...  to intercept the Evil Russian.

    Probably cuz the rest of their puny navy has been sent to Asia in a vain attempt to scare the Evil Chinaman....  Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    ALAMO

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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  ALAMO Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:23 am

    It is the newest transforming thermonuclear-powered submersible carrier of Her Royal Highness Navy, you silly.
    Just pretending to be a ferry to fool the Russkies.

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    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:55 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Possible ''on the fly'' revision of new Ivan Gren ships:
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 25-9819185-11711-s-303-preliminary-view-01

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 25-9819189-11711-s-303-preliminary-view-02

    I wonder where they plan to get Ka-29 helicopters for all these ships.
    The Soviet Navy only received 46 Ka-29s (59 were manufactured including prototypes, test helicopters and helicopters for the 344th Torzhok Training Center)

    Ukraine received 5 Ka-29, in addition 2 Ka-29 have been lost, so a maximum of 39 is available if all are well preserved.

    Assuming that some of Torzhok are still available, it could reach something more than 40, but in Yeisk there are already 2 for training, so 40 would be the maximum number for the fleets.


    The plan when the 4 Mistrals were projected was to refit 32 (only 8 helicopters per ship). And that would leave the other ships without helicopters.

    If only 2 UDKs (x8), 2 11711 (x2) and 2 1171M (x4) are built, also counting with a minimum number of 4 in the bases that do not contain these boats, 40 are already needed, which may be possible get, but there would be no Ka-29 for more ships.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:16 pm

    They are creating a new naval helicopter. They certainly won't use old ones for ever.

    And they also now have the naval ka-52.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:33 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    It looks like the mighty world-spanning Royal Navy has dispatched one of its famous & greatly-feared... err...  car ferries...  to intercept the Evil Russian.

    Probably cuz the rest of their puny navy has been sent to Asia in a vain attempt to scare the Evil Chinaman....  Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Just like when the Iranian Navy passed Dover, nothing in our press. No ship available for escort duty. But more important no Royal Navy ship wants to be seen in the Channel as they might have to pick up some of the many hundreds of immigrants making the trip across the Channel.

    Only half of those ferries are ours P&O the rest are Danish DFDS.

    HMS QE turned tail and headed for the Philippines at the start of the week by the most direct route after the Chines had words. Then the US Sec Def basically said that it should do its work in traditional NATO areas, not the Pacific as it would just get in the way. Since half its F-35 aircraft are US Marines and its main AD is the USS Sullivans it had to obey like the good little vassal it is.

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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:03 pm

    Isos wrote:They are creating a new naval helicopter. They certainly won't use old ones for ever.

    And they also now have the naval ka-52.

    Both play different roles.
    Ka-29 is a troop carrier with some extra assault/support possibilities.
    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:06 pm

    Isos wrote:They are creating a new naval helicopter. They certainly won't use old ones for ever.

    And they also now have the naval ka-52.

    Yes, next decade perhaps, for the moment there are not Ka-29 enough if continue the class 11711M with more ships and the two UDK´s (LHD)
    I have count only 8 Ka-29 each UDK because also count 8 Ka-52 each. And also this is very few because they dont going to have 100% of Ka-29 available all time

    and if had built the 4 Mistrals last decade, they dont have Ka--29 enough for Ivan Gren class

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