Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 1423
    Points : 1413
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:31 am

    Dima wrote:
    xeno wrote:So the so called 8.4k tons displacement for 11711M is actually standard displacement, which means the full displacement should be around 10k tons.
    Very impressed...
    Not sure about the 10K displacement full load.
    The brochure spec mentioned it as 8,000t full displacement, maybe ~8,500t max.
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Pr_11710

    As for the ships itself, considering the state in which the Russia Navy finds itself in, this is good. But my preference would have been the revival of Pr.1174 or a class which offered similar capacity.

    Why? This modified class is similar to the san Giorgio class and from the information available seems to have good capabilities. As far as the 1174 where is the need? They even retired those hull relatively early.

    Anyway, they are building two new amphibious assault ships (helo carriers) in Zaliv with a displacement 2 to 3 times larger than 1174... and those two ships are even carrying the same name as two of the 1174... so they are (also) replacing those, while offering much greater capabilities.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 10494
    Points : 10568
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:32 pm

    Dima wrote:
    As for the ships itself, considering the state in which the Russia Navy finds itself in, this is good. But my preference would have been the revival of Pr.1174 or a class which offered similar capacity....

    No way, those things as dinosaurs

    Stock Gren would be better solution, hell even restarting Ropuchas would have been more efficient

    And who knows how many Ukrainian parts 1174s have, those are straight from the 70s

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2385
    Points : 2367
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:44 pm

    it would cost way more money than its worth to bring Ivan's back into service assuming they even could.

    Big_Gazza and PapaDragon like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28756
    Points : 29286
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:26 am

    But my preference would have been the revival of Pr.1174 or a class which offered similar capacity.

    Would be redundant to bring the Ivan Rogovs back into service, and the fact that they have laid down two new ships reportedly in the 40K ton class and one of them is called the Ivan Rogov I suspect they will take their place, so the second option of your wish seems to be going to be granted...
    Dima
    Dima

    Posts : 1127
    Points : 1140
    Join date : 2012-03-21

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Dima Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:Would be redundant to bring the Ivan Rogovs back into service, and the fact that they have laid down two new ships reportedly in the 40K ton class and one of them is called the Ivan Rogov I suspect they will take their place, so the second option of your wish seems to be going to be granted...
    I think my use of "revival" created all the confusions. Sorry about that.
    What I meant was, not to resurrect the old 1174s, but to have a new ship based on a revised/optimised design/capacity of 1174.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2385
    Points : 2367
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:22 pm

    Dima wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Would be redundant to bring the Ivan Rogovs back into service, and the fact that they have laid down two new ships reportedly in the 40K ton class and one of them is called the Ivan Rogov I suspect they will take their place, so the second option of your wish seems to be going to be granted...
    I think my use of "revival" created all the confusions. Sorry about that.
    What I meant was, not to resurrect the old 1174s, but to have a new ship based on a revised/optimised design/capacity of 1174.

    they are already doing that with the upgraded Gren's.
    Dima
    Dima

    Posts : 1127
    Points : 1140
    Join date : 2012-03-21

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Dima Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:56 pm


    Pr.1174 deploying its two Lebed off South Yemen in 1979.
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Pr_11711

    The above is what represents 1174.
    500+ marines + 40+ MBTs Or 80+ APCs (both of which when well deck is utilized).
    Unfortunately not many realize or appreciates what's at your disposal, inhouse, the result being - Russian Navy is still 4-5 years away from getting similar capability.

    It's a capability that was left to decay 30 years ago, but was recoverable even a decade back (with a revised/optimised design) until the disaster struck in the form of Mistral deal in 2011.

    The lust for Mistral deal in certain quarters & the bad, myopic decisions earlier made, which resulted in 11711 Ivan Gren (partly as a result of funding issues for "large" projects/undertakings during those years), made sure no one even bothered (?) to pursue a revised/optimised 1174 design.

    If the highly inadequate 11711 Ivan Gren project could be salvaged with a new scaled up & more capable 11711, there was pretty much that could have been done with the 1174... if not for the myopic decisions made under those very rough years.

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Yantar-Shipyard-Unveils-Design-of-Improved-Project-11711-Ivan-Gren-class-LST-2-1024x578

    Don't want the topic diverted from the new 11711. So ending it here.

    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2385
    Points : 2367
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:14 pm

    Eh they can carry a bit more tanks but the Russian army isn't the size of the Red Army, when the Rogov's were made the red army was like what 4M men strong?

    So having 15k ton landing ships as standard doesn't make sense cost-wise when your army is nowhere near that size, doesn't even make sense operational-wise. The Russians have no need for basic landing ships that large, they do not have the manpower or budget to really justify it.

    They are also laying down helio carriers and the 8k Gren's will work alongside those.

    8k Gren is more than enough for the Russians requirements.

    Big_Gazza and PapaDragon like this post

    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 3369
    Points : 3371
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  LMFS Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:38 pm

    A standard Gren can land just a battalion and an upgraded one two, but without the being able to house all the manpower long term. Of course they need more and bigger vessels in order to gain critical numerical advantage at the decisive initial phases of a landing operation...

    As to the need of making such operations, soon enough (if the shit really hits the fan) we could see Russia considering to land in Odessa if the ukies decide to retaliate for what happens in Donbass by attacking their forces in Transnistria. They need to be ready for such eventualities.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28756
    Points : 29286
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:51 pm

    They are making two 40K ton helicopter landing ships that can easily replicate and replace what the old Ivan Rogov ships did.

    The Ivan Gren is to replace all the smaller landing ships like the Alligator and Rogov class boats...

    Sponsored content

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 30 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:09 am