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53 posters
PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
lyle6- Posts : 2444
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Join date : 2020-09-13
Location : Philippines
- Post n°701
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
That's just incense
GarryB likes this post
GarryB- Posts : 40198
Points : 40698
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°702
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
Except the image seems to capture the incoming trails of two boats who seem to have arrived in a hurry... probably to deal with the problem...
walle83- Posts : 974
Points : 984
Join date : 2016-11-12
Location : Sweden
- Post n°703
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
George1 and Backman like this post
Mir- Posts : 3673
Points : 3673
Join date : 2021-06-10
- Post n°704
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
China should give thanks and turn her into a museum.
walle83- Posts : 974
Points : 984
Join date : 2016-11-12
Location : Sweden
- Post n°705
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
Strange that they give away an old Ming class sub to Myanmar but scrap a more modern Kilo.
Mir- Posts : 3673
Points : 3673
Join date : 2021-06-10
- Post n°706
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
Yes they also to rather sell JF-17's than the Sukhoi copies. Very strange yes.
ALAMO- Posts : 7330
Points : 7422
Join date : 2014-11-25
- Post n°707
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
Why strange?
They won't get any added value by transferring a Russia made sub.
They won't get a juan back for spares&service, all would go to Russia.
Money talks, lads.
Besides, I suppose this Kilo is worn out to the last screw, including multiple unscrewing all the joints there for reverse engineering
They won't get any added value by transferring a Russia made sub.
They won't get a juan back for spares&service, all would go to Russia.
Money talks, lads.
Besides, I suppose this Kilo is worn out to the last screw, including multiple unscrewing all the joints there for reverse engineering
Mir likes this post
Isos- Posts : 11523
Points : 11491
Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°708
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
I saw somewhere they in fact give submarine for port access in the country.
I guess they are ok by giving older subs but new ones isn't worth it.
This way they have new replenishement base, the country getting the sub is happy to have it for free and they can let them test a chinese sub and improve the chances to get orders for new ones.
USSR also did such things and ended with allies that turned their eyes to the west because soviets weren't giving enough for free. Then they realized what it means to have debts in US dollar...
I guess they are ok by giving older subs but new ones isn't worth it.
This way they have new replenishement base, the country getting the sub is happy to have it for free and they can let them test a chinese sub and improve the chances to get orders for new ones.
USSR also did such things and ended with allies that turned their eyes to the west because soviets weren't giving enough for free. Then they realized what it means to have debts in US dollar...
GarryB, Hole and lancelot like this post
Hole- Posts : 11050
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Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
- Post n°709
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
GarryB likes this post
walle83- Posts : 974
Points : 984
Join date : 2016-11-12
Location : Sweden
- Post n°710
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
walle83- Posts : 974
Points : 984
Join date : 2016-11-12
Location : Sweden
- Post n°711
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
Two more Type 052D destroyers commissioned.
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/naval-news/naval-news-archive/2022/march/11495-china-commissions-two-type-052d-destroyers-zhanjiang-and-jiaozuo.html
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/naval-news/naval-news-archive/2022/march/11495-china-commissions-two-type-052d-destroyers-zhanjiang-and-jiaozuo.html
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5962
Points : 5914
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA
- Post n°712
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
https://asiatimes.com/2022/05/chinas-next-generation-nuclear-carrier-floating-into-view/
The CV-16 was to train crews for the CV-17; the flattop CV-18 will train crews for the CVN-19.
‘Today against China in the Westpac AOR, Super Hornets are all but worthless. Unfortunately, Big Navy didn’t have the foresight to require long legs and speed with the F/A-18 E/F. So, we’re now without an effective long-range, high-supersonic carrier-based air-to-air capability until presumably NGAD/F/A-XX hits the fleet, whatever and whenever that turns out to be.’
The CV-16 was to train crews for the CV-17; the flattop CV-18 will train crews for the CVN-19.
‘Today against China in the Westpac AOR, Super Hornets are all but worthless. Unfortunately, Big Navy didn’t have the foresight to require long legs and speed with the F/A-18 E/F. So, we’re now without an effective long-range, high-supersonic carrier-based air-to-air capability until presumably NGAD/F/A-XX hits the fleet, whatever and whenever that turns out to be.’
Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu May 19, 2022 5:26 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)
GarryB likes this post
walle83- Posts : 974
Points : 984
Join date : 2016-11-12
Location : Sweden
- Post n°713
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
GarryB, George1 and Mir like this post
George1- Posts : 18472
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Join date : 2011-12-22
Location : Greece
- Post n°714
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
Podlodka77 likes this post
GarryB- Posts : 40198
Points : 40698
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°715
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
I would say the build quality is likely to be very good.
The first of series for each ship type might have a few design bugs but once the get them into the water and test them such problems usually become obvious and a redesign of the next revision and a later upgrade of the original ships should sort that out...
This is good news for China and not too soon either... the general public in the west probably know more about American culture than Chinese culture... and ths big split with the west for Russia will be great for China because China can sit on two seats if it wants to... continue to trade with the west and sell to the west but also trade and have relations including cheap energy from Russia and the rest of the world in a balanced way that suits China.
The question is... will the west... or should I say... will the US want to continue to contain and isolate China the way it did with Russia considering how that is going to turn out for them.
Cutting them off from the cheap energy and resources of Russia is going to be costly for the west and that cost might make them less aggressive and self destructive in their relations with China.
It is going to be very interesting... but either way Chinese weapon production is putting it into a good position to be able to trade with the rest of the world and be able to deal with potential western interference...
The first of series for each ship type might have a few design bugs but once the get them into the water and test them such problems usually become obvious and a redesign of the next revision and a later upgrade of the original ships should sort that out...
This is good news for China and not too soon either... the general public in the west probably know more about American culture than Chinese culture... and ths big split with the west for Russia will be great for China because China can sit on two seats if it wants to... continue to trade with the west and sell to the west but also trade and have relations including cheap energy from Russia and the rest of the world in a balanced way that suits China.
The question is... will the west... or should I say... will the US want to continue to contain and isolate China the way it did with Russia considering how that is going to turn out for them.
Cutting them off from the cheap energy and resources of Russia is going to be costly for the west and that cost might make them less aggressive and self destructive in their relations with China.
It is going to be very interesting... but either way Chinese weapon production is putting it into a good position to be able to trade with the rest of the world and be able to deal with potential western interference...
Podlodka77 likes this post
Isos- Posts : 11523
Points : 11491
Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°716
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
I have big doubts about chinese quality. I've seen a copy of a small fishing boat on alibaba that was tested by the, I think new zelandian, company that made the original model and you could see a big difference.
And as long as they don't have a submarine equivalent to an improved akula or first Yasen they will be at mercy of US navy (and french/UK would add another 12 SSN to the war).
SSN would rule in south china sea.
IMO with all the sanctions and weapon transfers to Ukraine, Cvina should taje the opportunity and ask for a Yasen or Akula 3 licence production or make a contract for 12 export versions of Yasen + 12 others to be build in China.
And as long as they don't have a submarine equivalent to an improved akula or first Yasen they will be at mercy of US navy (and french/UK would add another 12 SSN to the war).
SSN would rule in south china sea.
IMO with all the sanctions and weapon transfers to Ukraine, Cvina should taje the opportunity and ask for a Yasen or Akula 3 licence production or make a contract for 12 export versions of Yasen + 12 others to be build in China.
lancelot likes this post
lancelot- Posts : 3033
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Join date : 2020-10-17
- Post n°717
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
The Chinese produce items at varying degrees of quality typically. It depends on who you hire, how much you pay them, and what the deal was.
See the kinds of commercial ships they are building and the kinds of clients they serve.
With regards to nuclear submarines the Chinese have the production facilities, they tripled the floor space of their submarine production facilities over the last years, their problem is they do not have any decent submarine designs they can produce I think.
With regards to the South China sea, I doubt they didn't litter the sea floor with sonars. And while they do not have any decent nuclear submarines, they have a fair amount of conventional ones, which might even be better than the Kilo. They had access to the Kilo at one point, before that access to Western French submarine technology, and now they have their own technology base to rely upon.
See the kinds of commercial ships they are building and the kinds of clients they serve.
With regards to nuclear submarines the Chinese have the production facilities, they tripled the floor space of their submarine production facilities over the last years, their problem is they do not have any decent submarine designs they can produce I think.
With regards to the South China sea, I doubt they didn't litter the sea floor with sonars. And while they do not have any decent nuclear submarines, they have a fair amount of conventional ones, which might even be better than the Kilo. They had access to the Kilo at one point, before that access to Western French submarine technology, and now they have their own technology base to rely upon.
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Isos- Posts : 11523
Points : 11491
Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°718
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
They have no real experience on SSN. Their previous ones are shitty and on par with russians one from the 70s.
They will need russian help IMO.
They will need russian help IMO.
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lancelot- Posts : 3033
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Join date : 2020-10-17
- Post n°719
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
That is what you get from Western sources. But I do not think it is quite as bad. The Type 093 entered service in 2006 at a time neither their naval nor nuclear industry had quite the same level and experience as they have today. The submarine they had before that, the Type 091, which they built at the height of the Cultural Revolution period was a major failure with a leaky nuclear reactor. The Type 093 did not have nearly the same issues with its reactor but it had several issues of its own. They did several upgrades to it and the simple fact is we do not even know the exact performance parameters of the latest variants. The latest variants can fire cruise missiles unlike the earlier 093 models. Some Chinese sources claim the nuclear reactor in later 093 variants is a newer design not the one in the original models.
But the Type 093 is clearly an interim design that the Chinese are using as a test platform to build technologies for their next generation submarine and as a platform to train crews more than anything. The government basically bought it initially as a way to keep the industry operating and give them enough work to keep their skills up to task.
Today China is one of the world leaders in nuclear technology. Arguably only behind Russia. Any new submarine they build will be much better than the Type 093 which was built at a time their surface navy was still buying Sovremenny destroyers from Russia. But yes I do not doubt they could use technical assistance from Russia with regards to overall system design and perhaps some subsystems.
The fact is the West has very limited information on the Chinese nuclear submarine program. And if you go to the Wiki page on the Type 093, the EN page claims 6 in service with no information with regards to dates to the last two. Go to the ZH page, and it claims 10 in service. The Chinese have a huge underground submarine base in a cave built inside a mountain. And only a couple of submarines have shown up on the surface or up pier side. So the simple fact is we don't even know how many submarines they actually do have.
https://www.businessinsider.com/rare-satellite-photo-of-chinese-sub-at-mysterious-undersea-base-2020-8
But the Type 093 is clearly an interim design that the Chinese are using as a test platform to build technologies for their next generation submarine and as a platform to train crews more than anything. The government basically bought it initially as a way to keep the industry operating and give them enough work to keep their skills up to task.
Today China is one of the world leaders in nuclear technology. Arguably only behind Russia. Any new submarine they build will be much better than the Type 093 which was built at a time their surface navy was still buying Sovremenny destroyers from Russia. But yes I do not doubt they could use technical assistance from Russia with regards to overall system design and perhaps some subsystems.
The fact is the West has very limited information on the Chinese nuclear submarine program. And if you go to the Wiki page on the Type 093, the EN page claims 6 in service with no information with regards to dates to the last two. Go to the ZH page, and it claims 10 in service. The Chinese have a huge underground submarine base in a cave built inside a mountain. And only a couple of submarines have shown up on the surface or up pier side. So the simple fact is we don't even know how many submarines they actually do have.
https://www.businessinsider.com/rare-satellite-photo-of-chinese-sub-at-mysterious-undersea-base-2020-8
Backman likes this post
Isos- Posts : 11523
Points : 11491
Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°720
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
US navy doesn't seem to be worry about their nuclear subs which suggest they are still far from having something decent. Japanese heli carrier tracked one of their SSN recently.
A new SSN will for sure be better thn their previous generations but that's not what matters. They need something that can fight japanese and US sonars and torpedoes.
China may be a leader in nuclear technology but that has nothing to do with making quite SSN with reliable power plants. Those are very compact nuclear power plants that are a lot different from civilian power plants.
They have a giant step to make in that field to catch up west/Russia. Wwithout russian help they may lag behind for decades. IMO they won't have better oppirtunity to get some Yasen than today.
A new SSN will for sure be better thn their previous generations but that's not what matters. They need something that can fight japanese and US sonars and torpedoes.
China may be a leader in nuclear technology but that has nothing to do with making quite SSN with reliable power plants. Those are very compact nuclear power plants that are a lot different from civilian power plants.
They have a giant step to make in that field to catch up west/Russia. Wwithout russian help they may lag behind for decades. IMO they won't have better oppirtunity to get some Yasen than today.
GarryB- Posts : 40198
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°721
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
I don't think they need state of the art level subs to compete with the US and any Eurosuckers the US manages to fool into joining them... and I include India and Australia in that along with the UK of course.
A sea bed sonar array will tell you where an SSN is currently and a ballistic rocket delivering a decent modern torpedo to the nearby area of the detect sub and you defeat an SSN without having any submarines at all... the torpedo could be air delivered by helicopter of fixed wing aircraft or delivered by ballistic rocket from shore or ship or sub.
Obviously an SSN is more than just potting other SSNs... it is about having a presence... it is also about monitoring enemy activity and shipping and it is about controlling patches of sea... but then it is also about sinking enemy ships and subs and for China that is going to require subs and ships to work together with aircraft to deal with enemy ships and subs including aircraft carriers.
The last exercise Russia and China had together... remember our European friend gloating about the new larger Chinese ships and how the Russian sailors probably envied their Chinese counterparts... well the article mentioned that the Chinese were interested in Russian anti sub technology and tactics.
China has technology Russia might want access to to better survive and grow in isolation from the west... and Russia has technology and knowhow that China will want for its own survival too so... I am sure they will share and work together... China getting bigger and stronger does not hurt Russia if Russia is getting bigger and stronger at the same time and vice versa... it only becomes a problem if one or the other is getting bigger and stronger at the expense of the other.
Like anything else you get what you pay for... some of the AKs made in China in the 1980s and 1990s were awful... they were made to be super cheap and they were terrible... but that is why the AKs were made simple but never super cheap in most other places.
I had a Chinese AKM knockoff and accuracy was acceptable... a 3-4 MOA with ordinary ammo... which means chest sized groups at 300m which is perfectly acceptable... not that I shot anyone or even wanted to. It was mainly used on plastic bottles and paper targets and rocks... for fun... but we are not allowed to have fun with firearms in NZ any more.
A sea bed sonar array will tell you where an SSN is currently and a ballistic rocket delivering a decent modern torpedo to the nearby area of the detect sub and you defeat an SSN without having any submarines at all... the torpedo could be air delivered by helicopter of fixed wing aircraft or delivered by ballistic rocket from shore or ship or sub.
Obviously an SSN is more than just potting other SSNs... it is about having a presence... it is also about monitoring enemy activity and shipping and it is about controlling patches of sea... but then it is also about sinking enemy ships and subs and for China that is going to require subs and ships to work together with aircraft to deal with enemy ships and subs including aircraft carriers.
The last exercise Russia and China had together... remember our European friend gloating about the new larger Chinese ships and how the Russian sailors probably envied their Chinese counterparts... well the article mentioned that the Chinese were interested in Russian anti sub technology and tactics.
China has technology Russia might want access to to better survive and grow in isolation from the west... and Russia has technology and knowhow that China will want for its own survival too so... I am sure they will share and work together... China getting bigger and stronger does not hurt Russia if Russia is getting bigger and stronger at the same time and vice versa... it only becomes a problem if one or the other is getting bigger and stronger at the expense of the other.
Like anything else you get what you pay for... some of the AKs made in China in the 1980s and 1990s were awful... they were made to be super cheap and they were terrible... but that is why the AKs were made simple but never super cheap in most other places.
I had a Chinese AKM knockoff and accuracy was acceptable... a 3-4 MOA with ordinary ammo... which means chest sized groups at 300m which is perfectly acceptable... not that I shot anyone or even wanted to. It was mainly used on plastic bottles and paper targets and rocks... for fun... but we are not allowed to have fun with firearms in NZ any more.
Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
Points : 2591
Join date : 2022-01-06
Location : Z
- Post n°722
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
Last edited by Podlodka77 on Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
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Join date : 2022-01-06
Location : Z
- Post n°723
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
GarryB, walle83 and Mir like this post
GarryB- Posts : 40198
Points : 40698
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°724
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
When I first saw that I initially thought that might be the entire British Navy.... but there are 8 destroyers and the British only have 6.
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Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
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Join date : 2022-01-06
Location : Z
- Post n°725
Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
The picture and the fact that it was all delivered in just one year are impressive. The number of submarines delivered is not convincing, but the only question is whether the Chinese also delivered a diesel-electric or AIP submarine to their fleet last year. They are not exactly public on that issue.
The Chinese have reached the level that in just one year they have delivered almost as many ships as the entire Royal Navy or French Navy. So, in a maximum of 3 years, the Chinese are able to build a fleet that is stronger than the two mentioned fleets together, at least in terms of surface warships. It is important to note that British and French warships do not have universal launch missile complexes.
Garry, I still think that the Russians could buy 6 to 8 Type-052D destroyers and install their UKSK and 9K96 "Redut", as well as their radars and sonar on those ships. There is no shame in that ! The complete Chinese weapons concept is based on Russian military technology; assault rifles, artillery, armored mechanized units, air defense, aviation, submarines, etc.
The process of replacing the large anti-submarine ships of project 1155 would thus be accelerated, until the production of the frigate project 22350M is established. The Russians have already emphasized several times that the 22350 project is the basis of their future naval power, so the 22350M variant will probably be the largest ship in the foreseeable future. I would speed up that process by building 3 to 4 Type-052D ships for the Northern and the same number for the Pacific Fleet.
And in the end, the question remains what lies behind the 22350M project. I don't think it will be a frigate displacement ship at all, but a "full-blooded" destroyer.
I think it is enough to increase the total weapons capacity of these ships to 66%, but compared to the variant that will have 24 (according to some sources and 32) UKSK "cells", that is, from the fifth frigate of the project 22350. So, one destroyer with 48 "cells" (6 UKSK), as well as the installation of an improved and enlarged 9K96 "Redut" variant that would accept 40N6 and 77N6-N missiles from the S-400 and S-500 systems.
The Chinese have reached the level that in just one year they have delivered almost as many ships as the entire Royal Navy or French Navy. So, in a maximum of 3 years, the Chinese are able to build a fleet that is stronger than the two mentioned fleets together, at least in terms of surface warships. It is important to note that British and French warships do not have universal launch missile complexes.
Garry, I still think that the Russians could buy 6 to 8 Type-052D destroyers and install their UKSK and 9K96 "Redut", as well as their radars and sonar on those ships. There is no shame in that ! The complete Chinese weapons concept is based on Russian military technology; assault rifles, artillery, armored mechanized units, air defense, aviation, submarines, etc.
The process of replacing the large anti-submarine ships of project 1155 would thus be accelerated, until the production of the frigate project 22350M is established. The Russians have already emphasized several times that the 22350 project is the basis of their future naval power, so the 22350M variant will probably be the largest ship in the foreseeable future. I would speed up that process by building 3 to 4 Type-052D ships for the Northern and the same number for the Pacific Fleet.
And in the end, the question remains what lies behind the 22350M project. I don't think it will be a frigate displacement ship at all, but a "full-blooded" destroyer.
I think it is enough to increase the total weapons capacity of these ships to 66%, but compared to the variant that will have 24 (according to some sources and 32) UKSK "cells", that is, from the fifth frigate of the project 22350. So, one destroyer with 48 "cells" (6 UKSK), as well as the installation of an improved and enlarged 9K96 "Redut" variant that would accept 40N6 and 77N6-N missiles from the S-400 and S-500 systems.
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