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    Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:The round domes over the main engine intakes are vortex dust separators, but the vent that looks like an air intake at the rear side of the engines is not really an intake as the air going in there does not go through the engine... it mixes with the engine exhaust gas to cool it down and reduce the IR signature of the aircraft.

    Thanks for pointing out the new top mounted intakes... I had not noticed them before.

    Here from the side:

    Mi-28N Havoc: News - Page 3 0_792310

    I guess the little box on the piston between front cabin and pitot pipes is for IFF system?
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:05 am

    No... I think they are likely extra air data probes... likely fitted for this flight for testing the gun and the airflow around the nose of the aircraft during firing.

    AFAIK the IFF system has single blade fin antennas that are quite broad...
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    Post  Werewolf on Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:No... I think they are likely extra air data probes... likely fitted for this flight for testing the gun and the airflow around the nose of the aircraft during firing.

    AFAIK the IFF system has single blade fin antennas that are quite broad...

    I guess you're right from the positioning on a piston away from the fuselage.

    I rechecked few pictures and not every Nochnoy version has them also they have variations between those who are equipped with this systems, watch the pistons which go away from the fuselage something is attached to it, can't say what this could be.

    This is with the attached system or maybe just something taped to it

    http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/3/0/7/2102703.jpg
    and this without

    http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/9/2/1824297.jpg

    and one without this covering of the instrument, i guess it is indeed some kind of air data system but don't now what kind of, but i guess not for direct air flow, maybe presure.

    All Nr. 35 yellow
    http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/5/8/1/1968185.jpg

    http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/8/8/3/2087388.jpg
    http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/1/2/7/2171721.jpg

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:31 am

    Actually if you look at two of the photos you posted you can see in the first photo that attached to the arm the sensor consists of a rod with two silver tubes at its base here pointing directly up:

    Mi-28N Havoc: News - Page 3 21027011

    While in this photo the same sensor is pointing directly at the camera

    Mi-28N Havoc: News - Page 3 18242910

    The free moving sensor basically looks like an arrow shaped piece of metal with two metal ring tubes on either side of the base... which based on the different directions they are pointing in the two photos indicate to me that in the top photo with the sensor pointing up the helo is hovering, while in the lower photo with the sensor pointing at the camera the helo is flying forward towards the camera... so it clearly does its job.

    There are two other pitot tube sensors on the nose... one on either side of the nose to detect pressure and temperature and likely also air speed.
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    Post  Werewolf on Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:34 pm

    Thanks GarryB, but i now about the right Optical air data system, what i've mean is when you watch exact those two pictures you have reposted on the left measure system. There is something attached to the rod exact where it goes into the fuselage.
    One picture with it and another without.

    I mean this little thing, hard to see what it is.
    http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/3175/tfois7pm_jpg.htm

    Also i've found pictures of the cockpit 3D HD camera for training analysis after exercises.

    The blue "disco-ball" looking like is the 3d camera

    http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/3175/w2qamdwf_jpg.htm

    And that is the picture of it, couldn't found it in bigger resolution.

    http://s14.directupload.net/file/d/3175/ruxlaepw_jpg.htm


    PS: the image binder is again bitchy, so i've to post them as link.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:10 am

    I had not noticed either the camera or the other sensor, but now that I look back through some of my pictures I see them.

    Most of my pics of the in cockpit mounted HD camera don't show it where it is in your photo... ie here:

    Mi-28N Havoc: News - Page 3 0_62e910

    Regarding the other sensor pylon, I think the pylon itself might be mundaine like an aerodynamic balance for the other sensor on the other side... and the feature mounted on its base is likely a portable camera mounted for an external view into the cockpit:

    Mi-28N Havoc: News - Page 3 0_83b610
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    Post  Viktor on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:50 pm

    Nice Mi-28N pics Very Happy

    Mi-28N Havoc: News - Page 3 2hia2o2
    Mi-28N Havoc: News - Page 3 Rbcmrd
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    Post  Austin on Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:25 am

    Interview with General Director of "Rostvertol" Boris Slusar.

    "Rostvertol": catch up and overtake "Apache"
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    Post  Sujoy on Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:42 am

    I would want to see Laser Guided Rockets incorporated in the Mi 28N .

    Laser Guided Rockets have the potential to replace 0.50 caliber machine guns and 500 pound bombs because these rockets will provide deep-magazine, standoff-precision weapons with low collateral damage .
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:05 am

    X2

    Ugroza....
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:X2

    Ugroza....
    What?? scratch
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    Post  Sujoy on Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:37 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:X2
    Ugroza....
    What?? scratch

    Ugroza is a precision guided rocket designed by the Russian company Ametech .

    It is similar to BAE's Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (guided rockets) .
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:23 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:X2
    Ugroza....
    What?? scratch

    Ugroza is a precision guided rocket designed by the Russian company Ametech .

    It is similar to BAE's Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (guided rockets) .
    So these guys (below) with some with upgrades
    Mi-28N Havoc: News - Page 3 FNFzL
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:47 am

    Ugroza is a family of guidance kits for Russian unguided rockets from 57mm, 80mm, 122mm, 240mm, and 266mm.

    The negative effect is increase cost per rocket, but the benefits include much fewer rockets need to be used to hit point targets, much cheaper than traditional guided weapons, increased safety for the launch platform as unguided rockets can be used from maximum range while still being effective, while there is no modification needed for the rocket pod or aircraft.

    57mm rockets are no longer widely used as their small payload is now considered to not be effective enough (800g HE warhead). The 80mm rockets with payloads of 6-12 kgs or so are much more effective and can be used against targets like armoured trucks and light IFVs.
    medo
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    Post  medo on Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:13 pm

    Are they laser guided in the way, that laser designator have to paint the target or like Kornet?
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    Post  Sujoy on Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:36 pm

    Targets will have to be illuminated first in case of laser guidance.

    Ugroza will use Laser guidance or optical guidance to guide the rockets to their targets.Rockets upgraded under Ugroza will sport the suffix "Kor".

    Ugroza also allows the rockets to be fired at their maximum kinematic range , while maintaining an accuracy of
    0.8 - 1.6m (CEP)
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:46 am

    The description of the guidance sounds a lot like the guidance of the Sokol-1 gun tube launched ATGM.

    It is described as being able to hit targets marked by lasers in semi active mode or moving targets and targets out in the open passively.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:41 am

    It should be kept in mind that rockets are traditionally used against area targets and their dispersion in flight actually improves their effectiveness rather than reduces it against many target types.

    The weapons used against point targets were guns and missiles, where the guns lacked range but were cheap and accurate enough to hit point targets, while missiles were expensive but had long range, and high penetration performance and excellent accuracy.

    Rockets would be used against a location rather than a specific target... often an area where enemy fire is coming from with a clutch of rockets would suppress, if not snub out.

    As optics and radar and other sensors improve however locating the precise targets mean more missiles and less rockets make sense, but missiles are expensive.

    Ugroza increases the cost per rocket, but against a range of target more than makes it worthwhile. The vast majority of vehicles on the battlefield are light vehicles like trucks that don't need 1m+ penetration warheads to defeat. In fact a decent 5-10kg warhead would be much more effective in dealing with such targets than HEAT warheads.

    Ugroza means that a pilot can load their aircraft with accurate long range weapons that are not enormously expensive yet can defeat light and unarmoured vehicles from safe standoff distances at a price that allows its use in enormous numbers.

    A good example is ground forces currently in Afghanistan using Javelin for destroying any point target they come across.

    The Ugroza is the equivalent of an RPG but with guidance to allow much longer range engagements than is possible with the unguided RPG.

    More importantly being able to detect laser target markers means that the helo can directly cooperate with ground forces where if they come under fire they can mark the threat themselves and call in the launch of a single rocket from max range. Most modern laser target markers work from 7-10km range and could even be mounted on a UAV in very dangerous areas.

    Most helos only carry about 8 guided missiles, but a Mi-28N could carry 16 Shturm or Ataka or Krisantema missiles on their outer weapon pylons and two 20 shot 80mm rocket pods on their inner wing pylons for a total of 56 guided air to ground weapons.

    That is a lot of trucks and pillboxes.

    I remember an article I read recently that talked about new model 80mm rockets with larger warheads and more powerful rocket motors that were terminally guided, but AFAIK Ugroza was designed for any and all Russian unguided rockets from the 57mm with 800 gram (0.8kg) warheads, through 80mm rockets with warheads from 4kg to about 8kg, the 122mm rockets with warhead weights of 21-40kg, and the 240mm calibre rockets with 50kgs of HE and of course the 266mm rockets with 150kgs of HE. The 57mm rockets came in a range of launchers with 16 and 32 rocket pods for fighter and helo use, while the 80mm rocket pods were 20 shot each. The 240mm rockets didn't use pods and were pylon launched, while the 266mm rockets were loaded into single round tubes for launch.

    Even without a HEAT warhead the 266mm rockets could kill a tank simply by shattering everything inside without penetrating the armour, and would be especially effective against bunkers and buildings.
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:24 am

    Is the 57mm S-5 popular among the frontline aviation or has it been completely replaced by the S-8? I've heard they were too weak for combat in Afghanistan. Were they effective in Chechnya or Ossetia?
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    Post  medo on Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:26 am

    It depend on combat situation. I think US did the same with their hydra rockets for AH-64 helicopters. When enemy doesn't have tanks or protection with SAMs, that there is no need to arm helicopter with ATGMs, which are expensive, but with more rocket launchers. Laser guided rockets give longer distance to max. range for rocket launching, what bring helicopter out of range from small arms fire and also enable to launch single rocket to a single target such as truck, bunker, etc, so it could engage more targets with one payload.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:05 pm

    The 57mm is too small for modern targets and even with 32 rockets in each pod they were found to be cheap enough, but reducing in effectiveness. They were largely withdrawn from service in the late 1980s.

    In comparison the larger calibre 80mm rockets were and continue to be very effective. Note a similar change has occurred in mortars where 50mm calibre mortars popular before WWII have been replaced and even modern mortars the 120mm seems to be the most popular in Russian use.

    When the job is to kill enemy trucks then laser guided rockets means it is much cheap than having to resort to missiles, while of course closing with the target and using the gun would be cheap in terms of consumed ammo, the cost in helos lost would make it uneconomical.

    In comparison the use of one or two rockets per target means each pod of 20 could deal with 10 to 20 targets so with four pods carried that means between 40 and 80 targets... that would be a devastating blow to even a large force.

    Using one rocket per target means it would be cheaper than unguided rockets where 10-20 rockets might be used per target.

    The only situations where unguided rockets would be more useful would be against unseen targets and wide area targets, and of course in the use of Chaff and Flare decoy rockets and Flare illumination rockets.
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    Post  mack8 on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:01 pm

    First flight of Mi-28UB today, bort OP-1
    PS: Can't post links, please check the Russian Helicopters website.
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:51 pm

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/590313.html

    More news on UB.
    Disappointing it STILL doesn't have the full defensive suit.
    According to chief of VVS, Victor "Cooper" Bodarev, 40-60 birds will be bought by 2020.
    That is a lot more than I expected.
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:54 pm

    TR1 wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/590313.html

    More news on UB.
    Disappointing it STILL doesn't have the full defensive suit.
    According to chief of VVS, Victor "Cooper" Bodarev, 40-60 birds will be bought by 2020.
    That is a lot more than I expected.
    Victor "Cooper" Bondarev - has a ring to it Very Happy 

    But I remember hearing a long time ago the total Mi-28 procurement would be somewhere in the ballpark of 130 or so.
    40-60 birds is hardly more than could be expected.
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:55 pm

    There have been 97 Mi-28s contracted so far, though it is safe to say that will increase especially with Mi-28NM.
    However when you consider they are all two seaters, the need for 40-60 conversion trainers for 100-150 attack helos seems excessive.
    They are dual role, so that is something. However I would think the MOD would be more focused on catching up with Kamov with a full defensive suit, not to mention radar and ATGMs.

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