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    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:01 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Best picture I've seen thus far of the Shaposhnikov post-refit.

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 21 03-9615925-26-12-2020-14-37-10

    Nice but a modern ship that big could carry easily 6-10 uksk with more room for redut.

    We can see here the limits of modernizations. It's even harder to modernize soviet ships with new weapons because they used to have externally mounted weapon while new ones are internally mounted.

    If it was me I would replace Udaloys with Gorshkov too and modernize only Slava and Kirov.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:06 am

    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Best picture I've seen thus far of the Shaposhnikov post-refit.

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 21 03-9615925-26-12-2020-14-37-10

    Nice but a modern ship that big could carry easily 6-10 uksk with more room for redut.

    We can see here the limits of modernizations.
    yes, of course, this however can make good use of a decent ship with good range and endurance.

    It was necessary to expand its capabilities and overhaul it, since at the moment Russia does not have that many blue sea ships.
    Anyway, as I wrote on the other thread, I suspect that super Gorshkov (22350M) will have dimensions very close to Udaloy class. We will then be able to see the full capabilities of a modern Russian warship of this size.
    The_Observer
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    Post  The_Observer Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:14 am

    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Best picture I've seen thus far of the Shaposhnikov post-refit.

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 21 03-9615925-26-12-2020-14-37-10

    Nice but a modern ship that big could carry easily 6-10 uksk with more room for redut.

    We can see here the limits of modernizations. It's even harder to modernize soviet ships with new weapons because they used to have externally mounted weapon while new ones are internally mounted.

    If it was me I would replace Udaloys with Gorshkov too and modernize only Slava and Kirov.

    This is the first Udaloy to be modernized. It's reasonable that they didn't try to do too much with their pilot project.

    Admiral Vinogradov, currently in modernization, will reportedly receive 32 UKSK cells.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:10 pm

    The_Observer wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Best picture I've seen thus far of the Shaposhnikov post-refit.

    https://2021.f.a0z.ru/04/03-9615925-26-12-2020-14-37-10.jpg

    Nice but a modern ship that big could carry easily 6-10 uksk with more room for redut.

    We can see here the limits of modernizations. It's even harder to modernize soviet ships with new weapons because they used to have externally mounted weapon while new ones are internally mounted.

    If it was me I would replace Udaloys with Gorshkov too and modernize only Slava and Kirov.

    This is the first Udaloy to be modernized. It's reasonable that they didn't try to do too much with their pilot project.

    Admiral Vinogradov, currently in modernization, will reportedly receive 32 UKSK cells.


    It won't

    Vinogradov will be getting same upgrade as Shaposhnikov

    Speed is priority

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    The_Observer
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    Post  The_Observer Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:44 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    The_Observer wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Best picture I've seen thus far of the Shaposhnikov post-refit.

    https://2021.f.a0z.ru/04/03-9615925-26-12-2020-14-37-10.jpg

    Nice but a modern ship that big could carry easily 6-10 uksk with more room for redut.

    We can see here the limits of modernizations. It's even harder to modernize soviet ships with new weapons because they used to have externally mounted weapon while new ones are internally mounted.

    If it was me I would replace Udaloys with Gorshkov too and modernize only Slava and Kirov.

    This is the first Udaloy to be modernized. It's reasonable that they didn't try to do too much with their pilot project.

    Admiral Vinogradov, currently in modernization, will reportedly receive 32 UKSK cells.


    It won't

    Vinogradov will be getting same upgrade as Shaposhnikov

    Speed is priority


    This source suggest 32 UKSK cells, do you have a source that says otherwise?
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:01 pm

    The_Observer wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    The_Observer wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Best picture I've seen thus far of the Shaposhnikov post-refit.

    https://2021.f.a0z.ru/04/03-9615925-26-12-2020-14-37-10.jpg

    Nice but a modern ship that big could carry easily 6-10 uksk with more room for redut.

    We can see here the limits of modernizations. It's even harder to modernize soviet ships with new weapons because they used to have externally mounted weapon while new ones are internally mounted.

    If it was me I would replace Udaloys with Gorshkov too and modernize only Slava and Kirov.

    This is the first Udaloy to be modernized. It's reasonable that they didn't try to do too much with their pilot project.

    Admiral Vinogradov, currently in modernization, will reportedly receive 32 UKSK cells.


    It won't

    Vinogradov will be getting same upgrade as Shaposhnikov

    Speed is priority


    This source suggest 32 UKSK cells, do you have a source that says otherwise?

    The "source" is nearly year old and is posting a picture of a discarded sales pitch

    Navy went on record that all subsequent upgrades will be identical to the first one to speed it up

    We been over this here



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    The_Observer
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    Post  The_Observer Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:09 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    The_Observer wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    The_Observer wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Best picture I've seen thus far of the Shaposhnikov post-refit.

    https://2021.f.a0z.ru/04/03-9615925-26-12-2020-14-37-10.jpg

    Nice but a modern ship that big could carry easily 6-10 uksk with more room for redut.

    We can see here the limits of modernizations. It's even harder to modernize soviet ships with new weapons because they used to have externally mounted weapon while new ones are internally mounted.

    If it was me I would replace Udaloys with Gorshkov too and modernize only Slava and Kirov.

    This is the first Udaloy to be modernized. It's reasonable that they didn't try to do too much with their pilot project.

    Admiral Vinogradov, currently in modernization, will reportedly receive 32 UKSK cells.


    It won't

    Vinogradov will be getting same upgrade as Shaposhnikov

    Speed is priority


    This source suggest 32 UKSK cells, do you have a source that says otherwise?

    The "source" is nearly year old and is posting a picture of a discarded sales pitch

    Navy went on record that all subsequent upgrades will be identical to the first one to speed it up

    We been over this here




    I haven't seen that yet. Do you have a link?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:28 pm

    Next modernization will add only shtil launcher and no additional uksk.

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 21 Eisagz10

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:18 pm

    Only?
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:59 am

    Charly015 says this, I have not checked his sources:

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 21 EzNBo07VkAMPniy?format=jpg&name=medium
    avatar
    gbu48098

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    Post  gbu48098 Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:04 am

    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Best picture I've seen thus far of the Shaposhnikov post-refit.

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 21 03-9615925-26-12-2020-14-37-10

    Nice but a modern ship that big could carry easily 6-10 uksk with more room for redut.

    We can see here the limits of modernizations. It's even harder to modernize soviet ships with new weapons because they used to have externally mounted weapon while new ones are internally mounted.

    If it was me I would replace Udaloys with Gorshkov too and modernize only Slava and Kirov.

    Agreed but its a good ship still and more than enough to fight 95% of the countries in the world. Why waste a hull and keep the skill in place. There are crews already trained and experienced on these ships, lot of factors that are not necessarily just weaponry and armament. I guess they have some sort of model matrix to make these decisions....we over simplify outside looking in.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:54 am

    They are place holders (upgraded older ships), they don't need to be super overloaded with missiles... just cheap and simple and represent Russia anywhere on the globe.

    I would expect the new Frigates and Corvettes will be used near Russian waters, though they might be sent on longer trips like pirate chasing off the coast of africa with a support ship to give it the endurance to remain longer periods than its size would normally allow.

    Sending a Corvette for two weeks operations makes no sense if it takes two weeks to get there, so having an endurance of a month... two weeks to get there leaving two weeks on station and then two weeks to get home it is not very efficient... sending a frigate will still take two weeks to get there and get back but it might have a two month endurance, so it might spend 4-5 weeks on station and then two weeks back.

    These upgraded destroyers are called frigates to reflect their armament... which is no good for taking on all of HATO but for use against pirates all it needs is a big gun to sink small boats, deck mounted HMGs and hand held RPGs, and of course a helicopter and a group of naval infantry to board and capture boats... plus some high speed inflatables too.

    Its much bigger size means more space for stores and its improved tech means more free space and perhaps a smaller crew for normal operations, so it might be able to operate off the coast of Africa for 2-3 months, and with support ships bringing supplies and maybe crew for crew rotations they could stay there without constantly making trips back to Russia... but that all applies to other locations too... longer time on station is very important and that comes from onboard storage space... which comes from the opposite of filling every nook and cranny with missile launch tubes.

    we over simplify outside looking in.

    Indeed... it is very easy to evaluate a ship by the number of missile launch tubes it has, but if that is all it has then you might find it is not very popular amongst its crews.

    For the Cruisers and the Destroyers it is certainly an opportunity to try larger propulsion alternatives and larger calibre guns and larger sensor arrays (sonar and radar and optical systems), but ultimately they will hopefully be replaced by new build models.

    The older ships upgraded fill a gap, but also offer an opportunity to test new stuff that will be put on the new destroyers and cruisers they end up making further down the road.

    For those thinking they don't need cruisers, a cruiser is not just a bigger destroyer, it is a class of ship that is designed to manage operations from and to organise the collective defence of a group of ships or an area of sea.

    A cruiser is big enough to carry enough surface to air weaponry to not just defend itself, but to defend other ships around it... it is the sort of ship that is critical if you have lots of other large ships that can't have an enormous air defence capability.... like helicopter landing ships and aircraft carriers as well as all your support ships.

    If you think of it in air defence terms a corvette is an SA-15 system or a Pantsir system, a frigate is a BUK, or an S-350 system plus a Pantsir or TOR, while a destroyer is an S-300V and S-400 system plus Pantsir or TOR and BUK and S-350.

    A cruiser adds S-500 and Nudol and everything else as well, and makes it possible to also have an airfield with Su-57s and a pint sized A-100... but it is not just adding these missile systems it also adds much bigger and much more powerful radars and sonar equipment, and it also carries all those missiles in much greater volumes than the smaller ships can carry.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:21 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Navy went on record that all subsequent upgrades will be identical to the first one to speed it up


    If this is indeed the intention, then thats good enough in my book. The Shaposhnikov is enormously more combat capable today than it was, and that is the whole point of extending the service life of Soviet-era warships. It would be nice to have a medium range SAM like Shtil, but getting Khinzal (navalised Tor) updated with latest missles is good enough for self-defense - other ships can provide area AD. A conversion plan now exists for the 1150, so now they should pump a few more out.

    The navys main effort should be getting more frigates (22350) into service, getting the heavy frigates (22350M) builds underway, and then laying down the first destroyers in ~5 years time. Pouring funds and manpower into excessive upgrades of 1150s is a waste and a distraction.

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:30 am

    Isos wrote:Next modernization will add only shtil launcher and no additional uksk.

    Not sure you actually looked at the graphic you posted Suspect

    It shows that in addition to the Shaposhnikovs upgardes, the Vinogradov would have its bow Khinzal SAM replaced with Shtil VLS, an upgraded structure aft to replace that Khinzal with Shtil VLS and 1x UKSK, and replacement of each of the 350mm torpedo tubes port/starbrd with a Kh-35 quad-pack and paket.

    It looks nice a nice plan and would result in a vessel that would be a true multi-role heavy frigate or light destroyer, but I think its overdone.  Better to focus money/resources on 22350/22350Ms.

    If the RuN were to committ to upgrading a significant number of 1155s, you might consider choosing one hull and converting her as a leader, eg similar to a 20385 leading a number of 20380s. If they are serious about a serial upgrade, maybe this is what they have in mind? Suspect
    George1
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    Post  George1 Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:10 pm

    Upgraded frigate enters service with Russian Pacific Fleet’s constant alert forces


    It has completed the program of shipbuilders’ trials

    VLADIVOSTOK, April 27. /TASS/. The upgraded frigate Marshal Shaposhnikov carrying Kalibr and Uran cruise missiles has entered service with the Pacific Fleet’s constant alert forces, the Fleet’s press office reported on Tuesday.

    "The Pacific Fleet’s frigate Marshal Shaposhnikov has completed the program of shipbuilders’ trials after its repairs and upgrade and has entered service with the Pacific Fleet’s constant alert forces. At sea, the warship proved the compliance of its maneuverable and speed capabilities with stated characteristics and demonstrated the reliable operation of its systems and mechanisms and navigation and radio-technical equipment," the press office said in a statement.

    At combat training naval ranges, the frigate test-fired Kalibr cruise missiles against sea and aerial targets, accomplished a series of artillery firings, attacked a notional enemy’s submarine with torpedoes and depth charges, struck an air target with Kinzhal surface-to-air missiles and practiced electronic warfare measures.

    The crews of Ka-27 anti-submarine warfare and rescue helicopters checked the warship’s upgraded helipad. The pilots of the Pacific Fleet’s naval aviation successfully performed flights from the frigate’s deck during its halt and while on the move.

    https://tass.com/defense/1283581

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:21 pm

    George1 wrote:

    Upgraded frigate enters service with Russian Pacific Fleet’s constant alert forces

    ..........
    https://tass.com/defense/1283581

    One down, plenty more to go

    Next please thumbsup

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:50 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:

    Upgraded frigate enters service with Russian Pacific Fleet’s constant alert forces


    ..........
    https://tass.com/defense/1283581

    One down, plenty more to go

    Next please thumbsup  

    That is the only post mod pick I have seen without it smoking soviet era steel mill, so hopefully they have fixed the turbines. It looked like it was burning 50/50 diesel and lubricant. Nice looking ships, and with 32 VLS, very fromidable.
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    Post  Yugo90 Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:47 am

    Will all the ships be upgraded like this or only this one..
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:07 pm

    Yugo90 wrote:Will all the ships be upgraded like this or only this one..

    I think they will upgrade at least three more ships. Check previous posts on this thread.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:19 pm

    Failed kalibr launch.

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:52 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    Yugo90 wrote:Will all the ships be upgraded like this or only this one..

    I think they will upgrade at least three more ships. Check previous posts on this thread.

    Russia needs to upgrade all of them. Or at least as many hulls that are still in reasonable condition

    Because with the postponement of the Lider program, in terms of serious surface vessels, for the foreseeable future the Russian Navy will only have access to the Kuznetsov, the 2 Kirov-class vessels, however many Slavas will be retained and modernized (I'm thinking 2 if we're lucky), and these ships.
    We haven't heard any news on the Super Gorshkov program either.

    And the Udaloy needs a better modernization than one which will only install 32 UKSK cells. It's not enough. 48 should be the minimum, but really 64.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:27 pm

    Isos wrote:Failed kalibr launch.

    Yup, it happens on occassion. No biggy.
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    Post  Isos Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:20 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Failed kalibr launch.

    Yup, it happens on occassion. No biggy.

    The trajectory seems to be made so that even during failure it falls in the water. It quickly turns after the launch so kinetic energy will push it on the sides.

    I guess they learned a lot with this and the missile doesn't seem to have exploded so they can recover it and analyze the defaults.
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    Post  Isos Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:22 pm

    And the Udaloy needs a better modernization than one which will only install 32 UKSK cells. It's not enough. 48 should be the minimum, but really 64.

    Possible only if you take out everything from the ship and rebuild it which won't happen since it means building a ship from 0.

    It was designed to have VLS or any internal weapons.
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    Post  franco Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:16 pm

    Isos wrote:Failed kalibr launch.


    Quite a show once it went into the water. Image the ship captain was "full steam away from here" pale

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