Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9526
    Points : 9608
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:25 am


    So that would mean additional 2x4 Uran launchers (replacing torpedo tubes in the center) and additional 2x8 UKSK launchers right behind it (what is located there currently?)

    Plus 2x4 Paket-NK​ just in case

    That would be 32 UKSK compatible missiles (Kalibr, Onyx or Zircon), 16 Kh-35 Switchblade missiles and 8 Paket compact torpedos

    Shaposhnikov was already sweet setup but this here would definitely be living up to potential

    Hopefully Vinogradov gets this fancy package


    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6420
    Points : 6412
    Join date : 2015-11-07

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:22 pm

    what is located there currently?)

    2 Tor launchers.

    The big modernization would be the shtil-1 as it need new radars on the ship.

    That would be a good ship but still at the level of what could be a new design for a 164m ship.
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 1130
    Points : 1128
    Join date : 2015-12-31
    Location : Merkelland

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:58 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    So that would mean additional 2x4 Uran launchers (replacing torpedo tubes in the center) and additional 2x8 UKSK launchers right behind it (what is located there currently?)

    Plus 2x4 Paket-NK​ just in case

    That would be 32 UKSK compatible missiles (Kalibr, Onyx or Zircon), 16 Kh-35 Switchblade missiles and 8 Paket compact torpedos

    Shaposhnikov was already sweet setup but this here would definitely be living up to potential

    Hopefully Vinogradov gets this fancy package



    I believe that is 2 UKSK launchers (16 cells) in total in the ship, as announced before.

    Gorshkov M (that will be the same size as Udaloy class) will have many more launchers (6 in total, for 48 UKSK cells), but it will be designed from the beginning to accommodate such weapons.

    The real good news is the presence of  4 Shtil-1 (naval buk) launchers.  Now these  ships will have a quite good medium range (possibly up to 70 km) SAM and a more than decent number of missile.

    The question is now about the paket mini torpedoes... are they removing the large torpedoes launchers existing before to accomodate those?
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2076
    Points : 2078
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  LMFS on Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:00 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:I believe that is 2 UKSK launchers (16 cells) in total in the ship, as announced before.

    Gorshkov M (that will be the same size as Udaloy class) will have many more launchers (6 in total, for 48 UKSK cells), but it will be designed from the beginning to accommodate such weapons.

    The real good news is the presence of  4 Shtil-1 (naval buk) launchers.  Now these  ships will have a quite good medium range (possibly up to 70 km) SAM and a more than decent number of missile.

    The question is now about the paket mini torpedoes... are they removing the large torpedoes launchers existing before to accomodate those?

    Assuming this picture has some reality to it...

    > The structure where the bow UKSK launchers are placed is bigger in the Vinogradov than in the picture (same source) of the Shaposhnikov. In the end, the later also got the augmented structure and we discussed, whether an additional VLS could be placed there. It is unclear in the picture of the Vinogradov, whether an additional launcher is there, I would say not
    > At the stern there is an additional UKSK launcher, that would mean at least 24 cells in total
    > There are Shtil launchers also at the stern, I don't know if they are compatible with the UKSK present at the same place, maybe they are side by side?
    > Paket + Uran indeed seem to substitute the torpedo tubes
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26289
    Points : 26835
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:48 pm

    The question is now about the paket mini torpedoes... are they removing the large torpedoes launchers existing before to accomodate those?

    Likely the main use for torpedo tubes on a Russian ship would be to launch Paket and 91ER1... if they have separate Paket launchers then the 91ER1 can be stored in the UKSK launch tubes... when needed.

    LMFS likes this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2103
    Points : 2105
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:37 pm

    Recent pic of the Chabanenko, taken 23 Aug 2020. Not much progress since Feb. Mad

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 20-9052333-chabanenko
    franco
    franco

    Posts : 3451
    Points : 3483
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  franco on Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:23 pm

    More info on the proposed 1155 upgrades;

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4145328.html

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 83920010
    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 83924410
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2076
    Points : 2078
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  LMFS on Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:28 pm

    And more:

    https://russianfleetanalysis.blogspot.com/2020/09/modernizing-udaloy-class-destroyers.html
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6420
    Points : 6412
    Join date : 2015-11-07

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Isos on Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:00 am

    Where do they plan to put shtil-1 launchers ? Will they replace tor ? I hope not.

    Good thing they say 4x12 so 48 missiles with probably 70km range and ARH. But Tor is a much better system to deal with anti ship missiles.

    The 2 tor launchers in the back will ve removed but they can keep the front ones. That's still 32 missiles which can be 64 with the new missiles and new launchers.
    Begome
    Begome

    Posts : 65
    Points : 67
    Join date : 2020-09-12

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Begome on Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:24 am

    Isos wrote:Where do they plan to put shtil-1 launchers ? Will they replace tor ? I hope not.

    Good thing they say 4x12 so 48 missiles with probably 70km range and ARH. But Tor is a much better system to deal with anti ship missiles.

    The 2 tor launchers in the back will ve removed but they can keep the front ones. That's still 32 missiles which can be 64 with the new missiles and new launchers.
    According to the plans shown it looks like Shtil would replace the Tor module in the bow and the Оса (Gecko) modules in the stern, which means the Tor module in the stern (or midships, rather, I suppose) would remain; however, apparently some Udaloy, IIRC, only have the bow Tor, not the midship Tor, so for them there would be no more Tor.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3264
    Points : 3264
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Hole on Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:59 pm

    Udaloy class has no Osa.

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 005912
    Schaposchnikov. There is a lot of space were the crane was.
    Begome
    Begome

    Posts : 65
    Points : 67
    Join date : 2020-09-12

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Begome on Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:02 pm

    Udaloy class has no Osa.
    You're right...I mixed something up. The targeting radar in the stern is for the Tor launchers midships, not for any Osa, and it is replaced in the plans for the new version with VLS cells for Shtil, it would appear; what confused me is that the structure midships, which currently houses the midship Tor launcher, is still there in the new plans, but it is not explicitly labeled...so either it will still contain Tor missiles that are guided by some other radar (seems unlikely) or they forgot to remove it in the drawing or it will house something else that they are not telling us.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3264
    Points : 3264
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Hole on Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:46 am

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 053410

    Put the Shtil-1 silos where the crane and the boat are. Delete the TT and you can fit in 2 or even 4 Uran launchers. 2 UKSK modules can replace the RBU-6000´s and the after Kinzhal (Tor) silos.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2103
    Points : 2105
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:08 am

    Looks like a good plan to me. Trading off the old version of Khinzal (Tor) for a pair of Shtil VLS bins is a plus in my book, and I'd happily lose the 2x RBU-6000 if it meant getting an extra UKSK bin in return.

    Regarding constructability, there will be a lot of available depth in the aft superstructure adjoining the hangar with the removal of the Khinzal bins and the RBU launchers (and their associated reload handling systems and magazines). Especially the RBU - those things pack a lot of HE into a small space and the magazine is deep in the ship and armoured to protect it (taking a hit in that chamber and detonating the reloads would 100% result in a dead ship). Remove these systems and cut away that entire section of superstructure and you'll have space to accommodate a UKSK and Shtil combo.

    In any case, it looks like they are retaining the other Tor structure fwd of the hangar/aft of the crane, so some SHORAD capability is retained for anti-missile defense.

    It's a pity about losing the twin 533mm rotary torp launchers, but the UKSK can carry 91R1/91R2 rocket-torpedos so the ASW capabilities are enhanced in terms of range and reaction time. Paket makes a great addition, and doubling the allotment of Urans is a bonus.

    The area behind the 2nd funnel was made available on the Shaposhnikov by removal of the crane and FRC. It strikes me that this would be a good place to locate containerised systems when needed, eg extra Kalibre launchers. I expect the area below this platform is engine room, so forget about locating any permanent VLS bins in this area.

    Yep. good plan. Now make it happen...

    Hole likes this post

    Stealthflanker
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 926
    Points : 1006
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 32
    Location : Indonesia

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:28 am

    Isos wrote:Where do they plan to put shtil-1 launchers ? Will they replace tor ? I hope not.

    Good thing they say 4x12 so 48 missiles with probably 70km range and ARH. But Tor is a much better system to deal with anti ship missiles.

    The 2 tor launchers in the back will ve removed but they can keep the front ones. That's still 32 missiles which can be 64 with the new missiles and new launchers.

    Not really as you run into risk of being saturated. Despite application of Phased array. Tor is still handicapped by how many guidance channel it has and there are not many of it (afaik 2-4, means it can engage 2-4 targets). Having Shtil not only improve range but being ARH, the limit of target you can engage is basically the number of the missiles you have.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 2155
    Points : 2145
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  hoom on Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:59 am

    This is more like it.
    Though I'm surprised there can be enough space/volume for both extra UKSK and a 2nd group of Shtil-1 aft Shocked
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6420
    Points : 6412
    Join date : 2015-11-07

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:28 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Isos wrote:Where do they plan to put shtil-1 launchers ? Will they replace tor ? I hope not.

    Good thing they say 4x12 so 48 missiles with probably 70km range and ARH. But Tor is a much better system to deal with anti ship missiles.

    The 2 tor launchers in the back will ve removed but they can keep the front ones. That's still 32 missiles which can be 64 with the new missiles and new launchers.

    Not really as you run into risk of being saturated.  Despite application of Phased array. Tor is still handicapped by how many guidance channel it has and there are not many of it (afaik 2-4, means it can engage 2-4 targets). Having Shtil not only improve range but being ARH, the limit of target you can engage is basically the number of the missiles you have.

    Tor is a short range system. Shtil-1 isn't good at short range because its missile will be too heavy.

    They need to use them togather. Tor is the best system for intercepting small size targets.

    Or maybe they can just put a pantsir without reloading and no guns but more missiles like the SA variant for short range protection.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26289
    Points : 26835
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:41 pm

    They seem to be halving the number of TOR launchers, but with current production missiles being half the size and land based launcher carrying twice as many of the new missiles as the old I suspect the number of TOR missiles carried will at the very least stay the same.

    But the old naval TOR missile system was not a honeycomb cell launcher... it had launch hatches and rotary missile carousels that held missiles in a big revolver system with lots of inefficient empty space areas. Replace it with a honey comb launcher and you could probably increase the number of ready to fire missiles by more than double, so the upgraded TOR might carry more than twice the previous system was able to carry and use.

    Which is good because Shtil is good but the TOR system is really cheap but still all weather and very very capable.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3264
    Points : 3264
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Hole on Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:36 pm

    hoom wrote:This is more like it.
    Though I'm surprised there can be enough space/volume for both extra UKSK and a 2nd group of Shtil-1 aft Shocked

    The Tor launcher in front of the hangar is nearly as heigh as the new structure for the UKSK on Schaposchnikov. The area of the crane could be heightend accordingly. But top weight could be a problem.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3264
    Points : 3264
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Hole on Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:35 am

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 1155m_12
    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 1155m_13
    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 1155m_14
    Next round of trials

    George1 and Big_Gazza like this post


    Sponsored content

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 17 Empty Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:53 pm