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    BMP-3 in Russian Army

    George1
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    BMP-3 in Russian Army - Page 11 Empty Newest B-19 armored vehicles with Epokha combat module used during Zapad-2021 drills

    Post  George1 Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:30 pm

    Newest B-19 armored vehicles with Epokha combat module used during Zapad-2021 drills

    The newest B-19 armored vehicles, equipped with the Epokha combat module, feature a 57-mm autocannon, Kornet anti-tank guided missiles, and the new Bulat missile system, designed for the elimination of emplacements and lightly armored vehicles


    MULINO PROVING GROUND /Nizhny Novgorod Region/, September 13. /TASS/. The newest B-19 armored vehicles, equipped with the Epokha combat modules, were used for infantry fire support during the Zapad-2021 military exercise in the Nizhny Novgorod Region.

    "An armored group, comprised of a B-19 armored vehicles squad, was engaged after the mock enemy’s main forces approached the first line of defense of the forces of Belarus, India, Mongolia and Russia, in order to increase the activity and sustainability of defense during fights for important frontiers, positions and regions," the Ministry of Defense told journalists Monday.

    The newest B-19 armored vehicles, equipped with the Epokha combat module, feature a 57-mm autocannon, Kornet anti-tank guided missiles, and the new Bulat missile system, designed for the elimination of emplacements and lightly armored vehicles. The Epokha’s key feature is an automated search and recognition system that tracks enemy objects and provides a firing solution for the simultaneous or consequential use of two weapon channels.

    https://tass.com/defense/1337263

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    Broski
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    Post  Broski Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:23 pm

    George1 wrote:Newest B-19 armored vehicles with Epokha combat module used during Zapad-2021 drills

    The newest B-19 armored vehicles, equipped with the Epokha combat module, feature a 57-mm autocannon, Kornet anti-tank guided missiles, and the new Bulat missile system, designed for the elimination of emplacements and lightly armored vehicles

    BMP-3 in Russian Army - Page 11 EWHuv8fWoAQNl9w?format=jpg

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    Rasisuki Nebia
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    Post  Rasisuki Nebia Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:39 pm

    Some of these videos and shots look straight out of a futuristic movie, background full of helios and Uran firing Shocked

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:37 pm

    Rasisuki Nebia wrote:Some of these videos and shots look straight out of a futuristic movie, background full of helios and Uran firing Shocked

    Mars battlefield

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:47 pm

    Wait for Zapad 2025! Very Happy

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    T-14, T-15, more robots, more drones, Su-57...

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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:16 pm


    Kurganets was already on this one
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    BMP-3 in Russian Army - Page 11 Empty B-19

    Post  calripson Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:14 am

    is B-19 the Kurganets??
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    Post  x_54_u43 Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:57 am

    calripson wrote:is B-19 the Kurganets??

    No, it's the BMP-3 with Epocha turret minus the APS.

    Kurg should be K-25 IIRC.

    B designation should be for Bumerang, but hey, RuMOD must continue it's zoo of procurement trends.

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    Post  limb Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:26 am

    Is there any evidence that the BMP-3 brigades have access to UBR-8 APFSDS ammunition?

    Ive always wondered if it also has frontal composite armor. I read an early 1980s CIA report about russian armor development, and they were very worried about the soviet union's "next generation IFV" that would replace the BMP-2, and the report theorized that the new IFV would have frontal composite armor to completely frontally protect against 40mm bofors, 35mm, 50mm Bushmaster 2 or 60mm future NATO autocannon APFSDS, instead of thin RHA or aluminum alloy. Did the BMP-3 design ever incorporate frontal composite armor, or this was just an unfounded worry of the US cold war defence establishment?

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:06 am

    From a practical perspective, BPM-3 incorporates a composite armor package.
    "A composite" is everything that is not a solid monoblock of ... some material.
    BMP-3 uses 3 types of material for its protection. That is ABT-102 aluminum alloy and BT-70W steel, combined with air gaps in between.
    Thickest package is located at the frontal middle hull part, and consists of 10mm BT-70W steel+70mm air gap+12mm BT70W steel+60mm ABT-102 Al alloy.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:35 am

    B-19 is Kurganets... the B model vehicles are tracked Kurganets vehicles... so effectively the 57mm grenade launcher Ephoka turret are BMPs in the new vehicle families so for Kurganets it is B-19, for Armata it is T-15, and Boomerang it is K-17...

    But the problem is that the previous designation for the 30mm cannon turret Kurganets was B-11, and the 30mm calibre turret Boomerang is K-17, so perhaps there will be a K-19 or K-20 or K-21 that has the 57mm grenade launcher turret for the BMP role?


    Last edited by GarryB on Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:38 am

    limb wrote:Is there any evidence that the BMP-3 brigades have access to UBR-8 APFSDS ammunition?
    The BMP-3 has a 100 mm rifled gun. A direct hit with a 100 HE shell would utterly demolish any non-tank based IFV anywhere you can hit it.

    ALAMO wrote:From a practical perspective, BPM-3 incorporates a composite armor package.
    "A composite" is everything that is not a solid monoblock of ... some material.
    BMP-3 uses 3 types of material for its protection. That is ABT-102 aluminum alloy and BT-70W steel, combined with air gaps in between.
    Thickest package is located at the frontal middle hull part, and consists of 10mm BT-70W steel+70mm air gap+12mm BT70W steel+60mm ABT-102 Al alloy.
    Don't forget the massive fuel tank in between the driver's compartment and the frontal armor acting as a backstop.
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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:24 pm

    OK so it is a lot more complicated than I thought...

    B-19 is a BMP-3 with the Epocha turret with the 57mm LSHO-57 grenade launcher and Kornet and Bulat missiles.

    The designations are based on the turrets with the Dagger turret or Kinzhal with a single AU-220 57mm high velocity gun and coaxial machine gun and two Ataka ATGMs, the Epocha turret with the LSHO-57 57mm grenade launcher and Kornet and Bulat missiles, and another Epocha turret with the same optics and missiles but with a 30mm cannon (2A42) instead of the grenade launcher, as well as the Berezhok... which is a BMP-2 turret upgraded with four side mounted Kornet ATGMs and a rear turret mounted 30mm grenade launcher as well as the standard 2A42 30mm cannon and improved optics and systems.

    B-16-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Dagger"
    B-17-BMP on the chassis of BMP-3 with BO "Dagger"
    B-18-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Epoch"
    B-19-BMP on the BMP-3 chassis with the BO "Epoch"
    B-22-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Berezhok"
    B-23-BMP on the chassis of BMD-2 with BO "Berezhok"


    The BMP-3 has a 100 mm rifled gun. A direct hit with a 100 HE shell would utterly demolish any non-tank based IFV anywhere you can hit it.

    It also has the Arkan ATGM...

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    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:50 pm

    GarryB wrote:OK so it is a lot more complicated than I thought...


    B-16-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Dagger"
    B-17-BMP on the chassis of BMP-3 with BO "Dagger"
    B-18-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Epoch"
    B-19-BMP on the BMP-3 chassis with the BO "Epoch"
    B-22-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Berezhok"
    B-23-BMP on the chassis of BMD-2 with BO "Berezhok"

    Do they plan on upgrading the BMP-2s?

    Also regarding the BMP-3 turret I always though that all it needed were some better ATGMs and some anti armor rounds for the 100mm, perhapse with upgrades it could fire APFSDS like the new dual pressure 57mm.
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    Post  marcellogo Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:OK so it is a lot more complicated than I thought...

    B-19 is a BMP-3 with the Epocha turret with the 57mm LSHO-57 grenade launcher and Kornet and Bulat missiles.

    The designations are based on the turrets with the Dagger turret or Kinzhal with a single AU-220 57mm high velocity gun and coaxial machine gun and two Ataka ATGMs, the Epocha turret with the LSHO-57 57mm grenade launcher and Kornet and Bulat missiles, and another Epocha turret with the same optics and missiles but with a 30mm cannon (2A42) instead of the grenade launcher, as well as the Berezhok... which is a BMP-2 turret upgraded with four side mounted Kornet ATGMs and a rear turret mounted 30mm grenade launcher as well as the standard 2A42 30mm cannon and improved optics and systems.

    B-16-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Dagger"
    B-17-BMP on the chassis of BMP-3 with BO "Dagger"
    B-18-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Epoch"
    B-19-BMP on the BMP-3 chassis with the BO "Epoch"
    B-22-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Berezhok"
    B-23-BMP on the chassis of BMD-2 with BO "Berezhok"


    The BMP-3 has a 100 mm rifled gun. A direct hit with a 100 HE shell would utterly demolish any non-tank based IFV anywhere you can hit it.

    It also has the Arkan ATGM...


    Now, the main question would be: how those different models would be divided into a single unit?
    There would be just one model for each battallion, one for a each company or would them be distributed up to the lowest possible level?
    They are at the moment upgrading even BMP-1, BTR-82, MT-LB and even Akatsja howitzers scratch .
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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:32 am

    Do they plan on upgrading the BMP-2s?

    I think this is all about testing... they have three or four new turrets and they want to test them on everything.

    The BMP-1 has a tiny single man turret so only the smallest turrets could be tested on those... maybe the Kliver turret or something similar that was used on the BTR-80A with the 30mm cannon.

    I would presume they will pick the turrets that make the best sense for that vehicle and what they intend to use it for.

    They might have all the turrets mounted on different vehicles... remember there is also MTLB and BTR vehicles as well as Typhoon vehicles and arctic tractor types as well that might use turrets not suitable for the army.

    The Au-220M is a dual mount for river boats and support ships too.

    Also regarding the BMP-3 turret I always though that all it needed were some better ATGMs and some anti armor rounds for the 100mm, perhapse with upgrades it could fire APFSDS like the new dual pressure 57mm.

    The Arkan is not a bad missile... relatively fast and with a 5km range it would get to a Bradley well before the Bradleys TOW reaches you... but you can drive with your beam riding missile while the Bradley needs to sit still while guiding its missile.

    With the new EO guided missiles they are introducing I am sure a new EO guidance system could be developed for the 100mm rounds that could become diving top attack missiles... the BMP-3 certainly has no need for anything much bigger... in fact small launch boxes on the sides of the turret with Bulat missiles might be interesting, but its primary use would be against enemy infantry and enemy infantry vehicles so the 100mm missiles and 100mm HE rounds should be excellent.

    The HE round is all bomb with a small stub propellent case, so in terms of HE performance it is comparable to a tank round while taking up a fraction of the internal space for storage.

    Now, the main question would be: how those different models would be divided into a single unit?

    They would not.

    As the new vehicles of each type are introduced they can displace older models, so for instance, the first round would be to replace the T-90 tanks with T-14s and the BMP-3s with T-15s and the BREM engineer vehicles with T-16s and the MSTAs with Coalitions... then as newer Armata based vehicles complete development they can be introduced to Armata brigades or divisions, with the previous vehicles cascaded down to other units.

    For a lower level unit they might have Kurganets vehicles so until there is a Kurganets with a T-14 turret that unit would retain their T-90s probably in upgraded AM form, while the different versions of Kurganets that are selected for use enter service and replace existing models.

    Obviously as this process continues the top stuff from the top units will be either cascaded to lower level units or may be upgraded with new turrets and put in reserve for the top units to use in situations like Syria or peace keeping roles where they don't need their best stuff.

    And the same for the Boomerang and Typhoon, though being lighter and cheaper and more affordable they should be able to make those fairly quickly and easily and they might form the majority of the army because they are so mobile and much cheaper to operate.

    This will mean that over time all the BMPs and BTRs and BRDMs and MTLBs and GTSMs and old T series tank based vehicles will be withdrawn and replaced in their respective units by Armata, Kurganets, Boomerang, Typhoon, and Arctic tractor types, leading to logistics only needing one set of engine parts and replacement engines and wheels/tires and tracks and transmissions.

    Remember in the current units there might be BMP based support vehicles... but ironically there is BMP-1, BMP-2, and BMP-3 and they all have different tracks and wheels and engines and transmissions, so you might have a BMP-3 IFV, but the engineer vehicle might be BMP-2 based, and the Ambulance vehicle might be BMP-1 based... you might have 3 or 4 recon and command vehicles based on 3 or 4 different models of MTLB... the original MTLB is very old, but the MTLBu and the MTLBM and other variations are still in use.

    The MSTA is based on the T-80 tank with a T-90 engine fitted, so the benefit of commonality of parts has only be improved over time as upgrades to the T-80 tanks and MSTA artillery vehicles have centred around unification of parts with the T-72/90 series...

    There would be just one model for each battallion, one for a each company or would them be distributed up to the lowest possible level?

    It is hard to second guess, but they might go for the 57mm Au-220 gun mount for Armata T-15s for the extra anti armour power, but they might go for the Ephoch 57mm grenade launcher in the lighter vehicles because it still has a 57mm grenade launcher with an excellent HE bomb and a useful looking APFSDS round too... or they might decide the Bulat missiles are good enough together with the Kornets and that a 30mm cannon might be good enough.

    They might decide the 30mm Ephoch turret is excellent for the Typhoon and have the 57mm AU-220 gun for the "tank" version in a six wheel configuration.

    For the Boomerang they might decide the T-14 turret for a tank vehicle and a Sprut turret for a light tank alternative for some roles.

    They might even mix it up... lots of decisions to make...

    From the sound of things the Ephoch turret uses AI and the laser complex called Quarry to find targets with each sighting EO complex so the commander and the gunner can independently engage targets on their own if they need to, which is rather new and sounds very video game like.

    For a vehicle like BMP-3 that sounds rather interesting with two bow machine gunners also able to lend a hand engaging infantry or even drones.

    They are at the moment upgrading even BMP-1, BTR-82, MT-LB and even Akatsja howitzers

    The turret ring of the BMP-1 and MTLB are likely too small, though for the latter they often have a rear mounted turret over the troop compartment.

    With these being non penetrating turrets they might still need the turret ring width to absorb any recoil.

    It will be interesting...

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    Post  Hole Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:57 am

    BMP-3 in Russian Army - Page 11 E_hosd10
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    Post  Broski Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:54 pm

    Epoch really does transform the BMP-3 into a whole new IFV, will the turret be mounted on the BMD platform someday?
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    Post  Hole Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:46 pm

    BMP-3 in Russian Army - Page 11 B-19_b10
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    Post  Mir Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:50 pm

    It would be very handy if they can also develop the mini anti-tank missile into a drone killer of sorts. I'm sure it would be a logical step forward.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:03 am

    Epoch really does transform the BMP-3 into a whole new IFV, will the turret be mounted on the BMD platform someday?

    Well according to the list above the B-23 is a troop transport vehicle (BMP) based on the BMD-2 with the upgraded BMP-2 Berezhok turret... perhaps B-24 or B-25 might have BMD-2 or BMD-3 or BMD-4 vehicles with different turret arrangements...

    I am not 100% sure but I don't think a lot of BMD-3s were built and that most in service vehicles are still BMD-2s so upgrades to those will certainly make sense and for the purposes of upgrades fitted the new turrets with the new 57mm guns and new missiles would make sense too but they clearly were not ready to share that information.

    Being able to take on two separate targets at a time with commander and gunner would be useful for the VDV deep in enemy territory where lots of threats could pop up at once...

    It would be very handy if they can also develop the mini anti-tank missile into a drone killer of sorts. I'm sure it would be a logical step forward.

    Very much so.

    Kornet-EM is a relatively big missile but its high speed and 10km range in the HE version would be useful, but the Bulat is a scaled down missile like the anti drone versions of Pantsir and the proposed anti drone TOR missiles, and also the Pine/SOSNA missile system is also in the pipeline reportedly being delayed a year to boost its range to 20km from the current 10km... which would simply require a bigger solid rocket booster as it is a two stage missile.

    Perhaps a smaller missile with the existing booster could be a small package light weight weapon for destroying drones cheaply and effectively in the same way that the Bulat is to the Kornet.

    Air burst 30mm cannon shells should also be very useful in that regard so for close range targets the 30mm rounds would be relatively cheap, while the single stage Bulat light cheap missile could be used to medium ranges and the Pine/Sosna could be used to higher altitudes with its solid rocket booster and high speed... all are laser beam riding so they are relatively cheap but very hard to stop...

    57mm airburst rounds with some ability to steer in flight... not missiles as such but just able to move from their point of aim slightly in flight would be excellent for drone targets and other air threats without being super expensive.
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    Post  Hole Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:01 pm

    The BMD-4M will be the next "target" for the Epokha turret.

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    Post  limb Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:16 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    limb wrote:Is there any evidence that the BMP-3 brigades have access to UBR-8 APFSDS ammunition?
    The BMP-3 has a 100 mm rifled gun. A direct hit with a 100 HE shell would utterly demolish any non-tank based IFV anywhere you can hit it.

    ALAMO wrote:From a practical perspective, BPM-3 incorporates a composite armor package.
    "A composite" is everything that is not a solid monoblock of ... some material.
    BMP-3 uses 3 types of material for its protection. That is ABT-102 aluminum alloy and BT-70W steel, combined with air gaps in between.
    Thickest package is located at the frontal middle hull part, and consists of 10mm BT-70W steel+70mm air gap+12mm BT70W steel+60mm ABT-102 Al alloy.
    Don't forget the massive fuel tank in between the driver's compartment and the frontal armor acting as a backstop.
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    The 100mm rifled gun shell is extremely inaccurate and has a very long flight time. Good luck hitting any AFV more than 400m away. Also 100mm isnt that powerful. Youve been playing too much war thunder. Overpressure is fictional.

    Also its confirmed the Russians are producing UBR-8 APFSDS rounds, but it would be really nice to know if russian IFVs have access to it. During the soviet era 30mm APDS rounds were only available to tunguskas and naval CIWS cannons.


    ALAMO wrote:From a practical perspective, BPM-3 incorporates a composite armor package.
    "A composite" is everything that is not a solid monoblock of ... some material.
    BMP-3 uses 3 types of material for its protection. That is ABT-102 aluminum alloy and BT-70W steel, combined with air gaps in between.
    Thickest package is located at the frontal middle hull part, and consists of 10mm BT-70W steel+70mm air gap+12mm BT70W steel+60mm ABT-102 Al alloy.

    Why didnt they add textolite or any ceramics sandwitched between the aluminum plates?
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:23 am

    limb wrote:
    The 100mm rifled gun shell is extremely inaccurate and has a very long flight time. Good luck hitting any AFV more than 400m away. Also 100mm isnt that powerful. Youve been playing too much war thunder. Overpressure is fictional.
    Thankfully we don't have to take your word for it, when KBP Tula has this to say on the matter:


    limb wrote:
    Also its confirmed the Russians are producing UBR-8 APFSDS rounds, but it would be really nice to know if russian IFVs have access to it. During the soviet era 30mm APDS rounds were only available to tunguskas and naval CIWS cannons.
    Rolling Eyes

    limb wrote:
    Why didnt they add textolite or any ceramics sandwitched between the aluminum plates?
    Rolling Eyes
    Do you even read what you write? Ceramics are heavy, while the BMP-3 has to be able to float on water. It should be obvious what putting additional weight on the front should do to the balance of the vehicle on water.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:39 am

    limb wrote:

    The 100mm rifled gun shell is extremely inaccurate and has a very long flight time. Good luck hitting any AFV more than 400m away. Also 100mm isnt that powerful. Youve been playing too much war thunder. Overpressure is fictional.
    Also its confirmed the Russians are producing UBR-8 APFSDS rounds, but it would be really nice to know if russian IFVs have access to it. During the soviet era 30mm APDS rounds were only available to tunguskas and naval CIWS cannons.

    What the hell do you even talk about?
    2A70 is a specialized weapon, constructed to increase firepower against soft targets, originally up to 4km envelope. That was not some random number, but something constructed in the purpose of outranging the Dragon, Tow, Hot and Milan.
    With the flight speed of 350m/s for 3UOF19, it does not only outrange all the most popular ATGM systems in the west but outruns them either.
    Even low speed/drag 100mm is about 20x more powerful than 30mm HE ammo, and about 25x more powerful than any modern 25mm ammo you can spot on western IFVs.  
    It is not designed to defeat armor, another way than with ATGMs. Its ammo package consists of 3UOF17 (19 later on) and Bastion only.  
    It is a supportive weapon, and with its rather big drum magazine and up to 12 shots per minute it is a very capable support&supress system.
    Now with the Bakcha module, they introduced both fire range increase, almost doubling it, and added a new round 3UOF19-1 with a proximity fuse.
    "During Soviet era" 30x165 ammo used to be vastly produced not only in the USSR, but Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia. AP-T was popular enough, that even Poland has it, using 30 or so BMP-2s only. Hell, APDS-T round was here either.


    limb wrote:
    Why didnt they add textolite or any ceramics sandwitched between the aluminum plates?

    Because you don't construct a weapon system to make it a wanking toy for armchair generals, but to cover the specialized needs of the troops.
    With it's armor layout, BMP-3 used to be one of the most armored vehicles in its class, still capable of swimming that you can hardly apply to its competitors.

    lyle6 wrote:It should be obvious what putting additional weight on the front should do to the balance of the vehicle on water.

    ... and if you don't care about water obstacles as much, here is what you have :

    BMP-3 in Russian Army - Page 11 Comment_n0zwOCrW2fvM04Ma1ZdJnfbu7tcgcupz

    BMP-3 in Russian Army - Page 11 BMP-3M_armoured_infantry_fighting_combat_vehicle_Russian_Army_Russia_defense_industry_military_equipment_925_001

    But actually I belive the other to UAE modifications fo swim.

    Hole likes this post


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