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    S-400 SAM for India

    medo
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    Post  medo Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:52 pm

    French AESA RBE-2AA radar for Rafale have max range of 260 km and could detect 5 m2 at 208 km. Russian N001VEP radar have max range 350 km and could detect 3 m2 at 150 km. Export N011M Bars-M PESA radar have max range of 350 km and could detect 3 m2 target at 140 km. Russian N035 Irbis detect 3 m2 at 400 km. Note, that western radars are calibrated on standard fighter RCS with 5 m2, while Russian radars are calibrated on standard fighter RCS with 3 m2. So French Rafale with new AESA radar will detect 3 m2 target at similar range.

    It is not difficult for Rafale to be better than Su-30MKI, considering, that Su-30MKI is deeply degraded jet. Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 are way better fighters than Indian Su-30MKI, not to say J-16, which is way better than both Su-30MKI and Rafale. Indian Su-30 is deeply degraded with mix of Indian, Israeli, French ,... electronics, which replace russian one. Indian communications and Tarang RWR proved to be shitty ones in time on Balakot clash, as communications was easily jammed by PAF and tarang didn't detect attack from PAF fighter, which shot down MiG-21Bison and Su-30MKI pilots were warned against AMRAAMs by ground radar operator instead of Tarang RWR. Su-30MKI doesn't have any IFDL or proper data link as India didn't keep original russian one inside. Indian ultra modern AFNET was a mess as IAF didn't know either where their own planes are in time of Balakot clashes and didn't vector Mirage-2000 fighters against PAF jets, although they were far nearer than Su-30MKI patroling deep inside India.

    India also doesn't have proper IADS to integrate all their air defense complexes into one working network. As a result, the only kill, which Spyder system achieve, was Indian AF Mi-17 helicopter.

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:They are always improving electronics so putting electronics that are not the latest in there can save money and use up old stuff so newer stuff can be used on domestic models
    Actually, the initial question that I had was, if it's possible for Russia to transfer a few S-400 from its own inventory to India. Some forum members recon that domestic versions of S-400 are far more advanced than the export versions, so transferring S-400 to India from Russian inventory is not possible.

    Furthermore, I said that it would have been nice if the 9M82M missiles from the S-300V4 complex can be integrated on the Indian S-400. Not sure is this is technically possible though.

    GarryB wrote:Why are they thinking of launching any missiles into the territory of a nuclear power?
    Because Chinese IRBMs in Tibet are already ready to be launched at several locations across India. The number of Chinese IRBMs in Tibet has doubled in the last two months.

    GarryB wrote:36 of them cost 8 billion... if they want 200 more that will be about 45 billion....
    Government of India has not said any such thing. Right now 33 aircraft are being purchased. 12 brand new Su 30MKI and 21 mothballed Mig 29.

    Isos wrote:IMO what india needs is a 200km r-77M as a priority upgrade as the MKI radar will pick up chinese and pakistani jet at very long range.
    Astra BVR missile integration is on.
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    Post  medo Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:23 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Actually, the initial question that I had was, if it's possible for Russia to transfer a few S-400 from its own inventory to India. Some forum members recon that domestic versions of S-400 are far more advanced than the export versions, so transferring S-400 to India from Russian inventory is not possible.

    Furthermore, I said that it would have been nice if the 9M82M missiles from the S-300V4 complex can be integrated on the Indian S-400. Not sure is this is technically possible though.

    Considering, that India is in bed with US and Israel, India could get only export version, like Turkey.


    Astra BVR missile integration is on.

    Astra have range around 100 km, same as PL-12, which shot down MiG-21Bison. China already have in armament long range PL-15 with J-10C, J-16 and J-20. PL-15 have far longer range, that Meteor.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:56 am

    Actually, the initial question that I had was, if it's possible for Russia to transfer a few S-400 from its own inventory to India. Some forum members recon that domestic versions of S-400 are far more advanced than the export versions, so transferring S-400 to India from Russian inventory is not possible.

    More advanced is not the right term. Secret is a better term.

    What Indian S-400s or Turkish S-400s can do is different and unique to them, so if an Indian or Turkish national wants to share that information with the US then they are only hurting themselves when the US share that information with its allies like Israel and Pakistan.

    Handing over Russian gear directly to an ally/customer means if it is compromised then their entire fleet or store of domestic systems need to be upgraded and modified to minimise the damage the compromise has done.

    Ironically the defection of Belenko led to serious upgrades to the MiG-25 that dramatically improved its performance and accelerated the MiG-31 programme to replace it.

    Furthermore, I said that it would have been nice if the 9M82M missiles from the S-300V4 complex can be integrated on the Indian S-400. Not sure is this is technically possible though.

    Well the SA-12 and SA-10 and SA-20 are generally not used together because the S-300V family are army weapons and the S-300P and S-400 are Air Force and Aerospace Defence Forces and likely Navy weapons, but they all need to cooperate together in a unified defence force so information from Army radars and sensors are combined with information from navy and air force and aerospace defence forces to create a unified information field that is then used to manage air defence assets so they work together rather than independently. Assets become much more capable and much more powerful and effective because everyone knows what everyone else is doing...

    To be honest, I would be worried more about getting an IADS set up that integrates as many of your different air defence weapons and sensors before being worried about getting this or that missile.

    Because Chinese IRBMs in Tibet are already ready to be launched at several locations across India. The number of Chinese IRBMs in Tibet has doubled in the last two months.

    And has India been doing nothing all this time? No exercises with the US and Australia... no agreements with said countries about perhaps China?

    I would suspect putting missiles in Tibet is a message to India and other countries to deter them from interfering... I would also suspect that China has longer ranged missiles in China that could reach all of India just fine without needing to be moved all the way to Tibet.

    I would think developing and implimenting an IADS system for all of India would be of rather more value than rushing S-400 batteries to the border.

    Government of India has not said any such thing. Right now 33 aircraft are being purchased. 12 brand new Su 30MKI and 21 mothballed Mig 29.

    For 45 billion they could pay Russia to complete development of an AESA to beat the one in the Rafale and then when scaled up to the Su-30s nose it will be even better and then buy 1,000 Su-30s to put the new radars in and still have change...

    For 5 billion they could start a joint venture with Russia to develop a new AAM with scramjet propulsion that can be launched from any altitude and still have a range of 800km and a flight speed of mach 9...

    PL-15 have far longer range, that Meteor.
    Lets wait till they actually get used for real in combat... until then the numbers are paper numbers...

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:so if an Indian or Turkish national wants to share that information with the US then they are only hurting themselves when the US share that information with its allies like Israel and Pakistan.
    While it's difficult to read intention, India rejected the US offer for both PAC-3 and THAAD in favor of the S-400. So it's unlikely that India will hand over confidential information about the S-400 to the US or NATO. AFAIK, Russia has never made any complain to India about how Russian military technology purchased by India ended up with NATO.

    That aside, China already has a great deal of understanding of the S-400. They probably do not need any information about the S-400 from India. Instead they will pass on details about the S-400 to Pakistan.

    GarryB wrote:Well the SA-12 and SA-10 and SA-20 are generally not used together because the S-300V family are army weapons and the S-300P and S-400 are Air Force and Aerospace Defence Forces
    I realize that S-300V is used by the Russian Army and not the Russian Air Force. My point was India could have asked for the integration of the 9M82M missile on the Indian S-400.

    GarryB wrote:I would also suspect that China has longer ranged missiles in China that could reach all of India just fine without needing to be moved all the way to Tibet.
    That's correct. But those ICBMs, SLBMs are meant to target US and Western Russia. And compared to Russia and US they have a limited number of those ICBMs.

    India, East Asia and South East Asia are well within the range of Chinese IRBMs. Why unnecessarily use ICBMs.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:16 pm

    AFAIK, Russia has never made any complain to India about how Russian military technology purchased by India ended up with NATO.

    They did when indians invited some US aboard their Akula sub they leased from Russia.

    My point was India could have asked for the integration of the 9M82M missile on the Indian S-400.

    They use different launchers and radars. Unlikely to happen even if S-400 is known to be able to connect pretty much any russian AD system.

    That's correct. But those ICBMs, SLBMs are meant to target US and Western Russia. And compared to Russia and US they have a limited number of those ICBMs.

    ICBM or MRBM means the opposing side can think it's a nuclear attack with probably nuclear cruise missikes and tgeir way and answer by a total nuclear attack.

    You don't use them.
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:17 pm

    Isos wrote:They did when indians invited some US aboard their Akula sub they leased from Russia.
    The allegation was India allowed US Navy personels to board the INS Chakra. Those allegations were made by a section of the Russian media not by the Russian government. They were long debunked by the Indian Government.

    Some Indian journalists said a team from James Fischer Defence UK went on board to examine the compatibility of its submarine rescue systems with the INS Chakra and the INS Arihant nuclear submarines.

    On the contrary, Russian news portal, NEWS.ru, asserted that those news were planted by French lobbyist who had an ulterior role in spreading misinformation to further their own chances of selling a nuclear-powered attack submarine to India.

    Isos wrote:They use different launchers and radars. Unlikely to happen even if S-400 is known to be able to connect pretty much any russian AD system.
    That's why I decided to ask. If S-400 can indeed connect to any Russian AD can it also launch the 9M82M missile?

    Not sure why the 5P85TE2 launchers of the S-400 cannot launch a 9M82M. Different radars, as well? Existing 91N6E, 96L6 should be able to guide 9M82M.

    Isos wrote:ICBM or MRBM means the opposing side can think it's a nuclear attack with probably nuclear cruise missikes and tgeir way and answer by a total nuclear attack.
    Correct. However, IRBMs can also carry a nuclear warhead. As can a cruise missile. IIRC, Iskander can carry a nuclear warhead. Some western intelligence agencies as well the intel agencies of Taiwan believe that some of the Chinese IRBMs already carry a nuclear warhead.
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    Post  Isos Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:15 pm

    French have never sold or proposed any SSN for export. No one did. Even Russia allow only leasing.

    Connecting radars and command post is easy. Using a missile designed to be used with one particular radar is more complicated. It is possible but you need to change either the FCS of the radar or the missile itself which will differs then from the original missile and you will have a new missile in your inventory.

    Yes any modern missile can use nuks. But IRBM are only made for nuks so if one is flying towards you it means it can hit anything in your country and it will be a nuclear attack.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:33 pm

    While it's difficult to read intention, India rejected the US offer for both PAC-3 and THAAD in favor of the S-400.

    Probably because S-400 is actually better than the combination of PAC-2, PAC-3, and THAAD all put together. (PAC-3 only shoots down scud like ballistic targets... if you want to stop cruise missiles and aircraft you need PAC-2, and if you want to shoot down better ballistic missiles than Scud you would need THAAD...

    Or like Turkey, you could buy the better product... S-400 that is actually cheaper too.

    So it's unlikely that India will hand over confidential information about the S-400 to the US or NATO. AFAIK, Russia has never made any complain to India about how Russian military technology purchased by India ended up with NATO.

    India has not done such a thing in the past but individuals can sell technology and information for individual personal gain... and of course India might be tempted in their fixation with China to encourage more cooperation from the US... who knows.

    That aside, China already has a great deal of understanding of the S-400. They probably do not need any information about the S-400 from India. Instead they will pass on details about the S-400 to Pakistan.

    HATO has had access to S-300 and S-300V for more than 20 years and they still can't crack it... Greece has S-300s and S-300V early model vehicles and missiles were sold to the US. They didn't get all the top secret stuff but they got the missiles.

    There was talk a lot of what they learned went in to PAC-3, but it is still inferior to old model S-300Vs so they haven't learned everything.

    I realize that S-300V is used by the Russian Army and not the Russian Air Force. My point was India could have asked for the integration of the 9M82M missile on the Indian S-400.

    It might be possible I suppose but would probably take longer than just getting extra S-400s. The Russians don't have mixed S-300V/S-400 batteries... the army doesn't use S-300P or S-400, and the air force doesn't use S-300V.

    That's correct. But those ICBMs, SLBMs are meant to target US and Western Russia. And compared to Russia and US they have a limited number of those ICBMs.

    Who told them that? They have plenty of money they could make a lot more ICBMs if they wanted to... and are probably thinking about it right now with US pressure and Indian and Australian pressure too...

    [qutoe]India, East Asia and South East Asia are well within the range of Chinese IRBMs. Why unnecessarily use ICBMs.[/quote]

    ICBMs offer more flexibility... and they only cost money when you need to replace them... and who cares about money then?

    If S-400 can indeed connect to any Russian AD can it also launch the 9M82M missile?

    S-400 can operate with other types... Pantsir and TOR and S-350 and even older S-300 systems... the point is that the S-400 doesn't load these other missiles on their TELs and use the missiles... the other systems are deployed in regiments or batteries and link up to share information and command and control... so the S-400 might use its long range radar to find targets at extreme ranges but let a Pantsir or TOR use its shorter range radar and EO systems to detect drones and incoming munitions.

    To use S-300V missiles you would need one of the two S-300V TELs... and its missiles are a completely different size and shape from the S-400.

    Not sure why the 5P85TE2 launchers of the S-400 cannot launch a 9M82M.

    Because of the difference in size...

    S-400 missiles... the standard sized missile in the tube and the small 9M96 missiles (S-350) beside:

    S-400 SAM for India - Page 9 Pvo_ma10

    Now the missiles of the S-300V:

    Small

    S-400 SAM for India - Page 9 9m83-g10

    Big

    S-400 SAM for India - Page 9 9m8210
    (Note using this picture but don't know where the numbers on it came from... I don't think they are accurate...)

    Both side by side in drawing

    S-400 SAM for India - Page 9 15841710

    The missiles of the S-300V are totally different in size and shape and weight to the S-300P and S-400... the only things they have in common are the S-300 in their designation.

    Different radars, as well? Existing 91N6E, 96L6 should be able to guide 9M82M.

    They possibly could but the radars the missiles are designed with will likely work better...

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:India might be tempted in their fixation with China to encourage more cooperation from the US... who knows.
    Possible. But then those details will immediately be shared by U.S with Pakistan probably with China as well. Espionage cannot be ruled out. Especially given the fact that Indian political parties are completely corrupt. Apparently far more than political parties in the West.

    GarryB wrote:There was talk a lot of what they learned went in to PAC-3, but it is still inferior to old model S-300Vs so they haven't learned everything.
    Maybe that's why Egypt has been using S-300 and PAC-3 for years. But I'm quite certain that Egypt probably has not been able to connect both S-300 and PAC-3 into a common IADS.

    GarryB wrote:It might be possible I suppose but would probably take longer than just getting extra S-400s. The Russians don't have mixed S-300V/S-400 batteries... the army doesn't use S-300P or S-400, and the air force doesn't use S-300V.


    I was of the opinion that integration of these missiles.i.e 9M82M on either of these systems will not present any challenges, due to backward compatibility in TELs and the use of a data link supported active radar terminal seeker.

    But maybe there will be other missiles in the S-400 complex meant for India that can compensate for the absence of 9M82M. Indian government has not disclosed what are the various types of missiles for the S-400 complex that are being purchased.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:28 am

    Possible. But then those details will immediately be shared by U.S with Pakistan probably with China as well. Espionage cannot be ruled out. Especially given the fact that Indian political parties are completely corrupt. Apparently far more than political parties in the West.

    And you can't rule out a colour revolution if the next elected leader of India is not approved by the people in Washington and London...

    Brazil was pro BRICS but the current guy gets called the south American trump and is not offended by that...

    Maybe that's why Egypt has been using S-300 and PAC-3 for years. But I'm quite certain that Egypt probably has not been able to connect both S-300 and PAC-3 into a common IADS.

    But have they tried?

    The vast majority of countries on the planet don't have an IADS... the best known system is American and it is called AEGIS and is for protecting their carrier groups.

    I know there was a country that had largely Soviet kit complained that Spyder was too hard to integrate into their air defence system and that for most of the time the thermal equipment is not much use because of the temperatures and humidity... when looking for people who are about 30-35 degrees C when the ground and background temperature is 30-35 degrees means your targets are the same colour as the background... it is not as effective as thermals in more moderate climates where live warm bodies glow white on black backgrounds of 10 degrees or less...

    I was of the opinion that integration of these missiles.i.e 9M82M on either of these systems will not present any challenges, due to backward compatibility in TELs and the use of a data link supported active radar terminal seeker.

    There is no backwards compatibility... originally the initial programme was for a unified missile system for the Army, Navy, and Air Force and it was called the S-300... the Army had the S-300V, the Navy S-300F and the Air Force S-300P... but the requirements for the Army were so different they ended up with completely different systems but kept the same designation. The navy and air force missiles look the same and the new redut is basically the S-350 system and when bigger ships get in to service they will adopt the bigger missiles too... (S-350 and smaller missiles are medium range and closer range systems basically for self defence for a ship... S-400 is to protect the area around the ship... so protecting other ships as well as yourself with a combination of S-350 and S-400 missile types... S-400 being 250km and 400km range missiles and S-350 having 150km range, 60km range and 10km range missiles which basically covers everything really...)

    I was trying to find photos of S-300V and S-300P missiles side by side but being army and air force weapons they don't exercise together and they are generally not displayed together at air shows.

    I remember in the early 1990s a German magazine called Military technology had photos of all these systems and their radars lined up in an amazing photo... amazing because these had all been secret and no decent photos of them were available to the western public before this... I remember being really excited at my first view of Kh-35s and SA-12s and SA-10s etc etc etc...

    The SA-10/20 missiles are certainly slimmer than the SA-12 missiles and the big SA-12 missiles are also longer too.

    Neither missile would be compatible with the TEL of the SA-10 or SA-20...


    But maybe there will be other missiles in the S-400 complex meant for India that can compensate for the absence of 9M82M. Indian government has not disclosed what are the various types of missiles for the S-400 complex that are being purchased.

    The base model S-400s allow engagement of ballistic warheads moving at 4.8km per second... it is actually very good... if Egypt had it they wouldn't need or want PAC-3 Patriot.... It is much more capable and cheaper.
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    Post  Sujoy Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:58 am

    GarryB wrote:And you can't rule out a colour revolution if the next elected leader of India is not approved by the people in Washington and London...
    There are two parties at the national level - Congress and BJP. Both these two have been certified by Washington & London. In fact the former was created by London.

    Given the fact that either of these two parties will come into power, the possibility of a colour revolution in India is extremely low.

    GarryB wrote:Brazil was pro BRICS but the current guy gets called the south American trump and is not offended by that...
    This is actually a part of the CIA game plan to convert predominantly Catholic countries in South America to Protestantism. The U.S government doesn't have much control over the Vatican, but has tremendous control over almost all the Protestant denominations. Even migrants from Mexico are converted to Protestantism by the US government.

    You may have noticed that the current Pope has adopted a few course correction measures. For example allowing gay marriages and use of contraceptives. Protestant churches backed by US government had highlighted these "roadblocks" within Catholicism to encourage people to convert.

    GarryB wrote:The base model S-400s allow engagement of ballistic warheads moving at 4.8km per second... it is actually very good... if Egypt had it they wouldn't need or want PAC-3 Patriot.... It is much more capable and cheaper.
    Even Russian S-400 are probably not using 40N6, so India will not get the 40N6 missile.

    Then, 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 missiles that are supposed to provide the S-400 with exo atmospheric interception capability have not been deployed either. So India probably won't get these two missiles either.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:24 pm

    There are two parties at the national level - Congress and BJP. Both these two have been certified by Washington & London. In fact the former was created by London.

    Given the fact that either of these two parties will come into power, the possibility of a colour revolution in India is extremely low.

    Fits the pattern... two viable parties... how very western... the thing is that occasionally someone will slip through and get to power and public notice before they can be turned.... like Putin... by the time they realised the danger it was too late... so the only option would have been a colour revolution... didn't happen in Russia but I am sure they wanted to... still do... and they probably tried several times and failed...

    Even Russian S-400 are probably not using 40N6,

    Why do you think that?

    Is Yars and Kinzhal also a ruse... they wont get them... just spend time and money developing them but not bothering putting them in to service...

    Odd you think that... do you know why you think that?

    so India will not get the 40N6 missile.

    India got Su-30MKIs at a time when the Russian AF had Su-27s... pay for it and you get it...

    And don't assume it is the 400km range missile that is intended for use against ballistic missiles... I would assume it was optimised for sniping AWACS and JSTARS and inflight refuelling tanker aircraft. I would think the 250km range missile is more likely the ABM missile...

    The 400km missile is probably not hugely different but designed to fly a lofted trajectory to maximise range.

    Then, 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 missiles that are supposed to provide the S-400 with exo atmospheric interception capability have not been deployed either. So India probably won't get these two missiles either.

    Aren't they S-500 related missiles? Intercepting targets outside the atmosphere is not all it is cracked up to be anyway...

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    Post  Sujoy Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:Why do you think that?

    GarryB wrote:India got Su-30MKIs at a time when the Russian AF had Su-27s... pay for it and you get it...

    It's not about India not paying for it. It seems 40N6 will only be ready for the S-500. Right now it's not available. Apparently even the Chinese and the Turks have not received the 40N6.

    GarryB wrote:Aren't they S-500 related missiles? Intercepting targets outside the atmosphere is not all it is cracked up to be anyway...
    S-400 is being advertised as a system that has exo atmospheric interception capability.

    So in the absence of the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1, what are the exo atmospheric missiles that the S-400 has? Can't think of any.
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    Post  dino00 Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:51 pm

    This will be moved to other place of the forum but I can't let this go away, Sujoy you are wrong CIA don't have any problem with Christians or Protestant, they coups are exclusively against left government, allies of Russia, allies of Iran, or countries that Israel or the Big corporations can't exploit, some countries are all this.
    Sorry for the Off Topic  and the work for the Moderator.

    P.S. some weeks ago I said Brazil will be the number 1 in deaths daily, unfortunately I was right, and the "government" don't care...
    Brazil could be moving to a Military dictatorship (again) or Civil war.
    The supporters of the Clown that presides Brazil want a dictatorship, and they said it openly. dunno
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    Post  Sujoy Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:27 pm

    dino00 wrote:This will be moved to other place of the forum but I can't let this go away, Sujoy you are wrong CIA don't have any problem with Christians or Protestant, they coups are exclusively against left government, allies of Russia, allies of Iran, or countries that Israel or the Big corporations can't exploit, some countries are all this.
    Sorry for the Off Topic  and the work for the Moderator.

    @din00 - I've answered this question in the talking bollocks thread.
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    Post  Mindstorm Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:22 pm

    Sujoy wrote:It's not about India not paying for it. It seems 40N6 will only be ready for the S-500. Right now it's not available.

    dunno And where this idea come from ?

    40Н6 is in mass production since some years at now and there is an order for more than a thousands of those missiles at 2027.

    Also the patent for the export version has been completed in the same year and India will receive the ultra long range interceptor not differently than China (obviously we talk of the 40H6E export version with an effective range of interception of 380 km)

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    Post  Sujoy Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:12 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:dunno  And where this idea come from ?

    40Н6 is in mass production since some years at now and there is an order for more than a thousands of those missiles at 2027.

    Also the patent for the export version has been completed in the same year and India will receive the ultra long range interceptor not differently than China (obviously we talk of the 40H6E export version with an effective range of interception of 380 km)
    So, intelligence sources are suggesting that China has now moved S-400 into Tibet to back their DF 21 and DF 26 IRBMs. However, the same sources are suggesting that China has not received the 40N6 yet.

    Related News:

    https://twitter.com/TheDEWLine/status/1097464245913047042?s=20

    The point that Indian intel is trying to make is - in the absence of 40N6, Brahmos ALCM and ground based Brahmos can be used to target Chinese SAM and IRBMs inside Tibet.

    But given the fact that India won't receive the S-400 before the end of 2021 it's possible like you said that India will receive the [export variant] of the 40N6.

    Whether India will receive the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 by 2021, is still not clear. Maybe you can confirm if mass production of 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 has started.


    Last edited by Sujoy on Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Isos Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:14 pm


    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    24 min
    Indian's Rajnath Singh said that Russia has agreed to expedite deliveries of the S-400 and intensify negotiations for 21 MiG-29 and 12 Su-30MKI fighters. The 1st S-400 regiment was scheduled to be delivered in 2021 but now India expects it in 2020
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    Post  Isos Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:17 pm


    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    24 min
    Indian's Rajnath Singh said that Russia has agreed to expedite deliveries of the S-400 and intensify negotiations for 21 MiG-29 and 12 Su-30MKI fighters. The 1st S-400 regiment was scheduled to be delivered in 2021 but now India expects it in 2020
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    Post  dino00 Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:17 pm

    Sujoy:Whether India will receive the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 by 2021, is still not clear. wrote:

    The question wasn't for me but this is a easy one...100% sure those missiles aren't for any Country that it's not named Russia.

    The long range missiles for India are 48N6E3 and 40N6E if India choose for the latter, because the big one is optional. Surely India choose the 40N6E.
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    Post  Sujoy Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:05 pm

    dino00 wrote:The question wasn't for me but this is a easy one...100% sure those missiles aren't for any Country that it's not named Russia.

    The long range missiles for India are 48N6E3 and 40N6E if India choose for the latter, because the big one is optional.  Surely India choose the 40N6E.
    But then what happens to Exo atmospheric interception? That's one major reason why India wants the S-400. Endo atmospheric interception can be carried out by the indigenous AAD/Ashwin
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    Post  Mindstorm Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:22 pm

    Sujoy wrote:So, intelligence sources are suggesting that China has now moved S-400 into Tibet to back their DF 21 and DF 26 IRBMs. However, the same sources are suggesting that China has not received the 40N6 yet.

    Any intelligence source suggesting something like that is an enemy of India and should be prosecuted by national authorities.




    Sujoy wrote:in the absence of 40N6, Brahmos ALCM and ground based Brahmos can be used to target Chinese SAM and IRBMs inside Tibet.

    Also in absence of 40Н6E Brahmos (even if obviously much better than subsonic cruise missiles) would represent a terribly inefficient attack mean against highly mobile AD such as C-400 batteries , the enemy would probably not even proceed to the interception but merely egress from the position and reactivate the battery's radars radars after that the cruise missiles would have been wasted against the original sector of deployment.

    The time of deployment and operative transition of C-400 has been purposely developed to render them virtually invulnerable to this kind of attacks with a proficient operator.

    Option for effectively conduct this kind of operations with cruise missiles would open only after massive introduction of hypersonic missiles, with speed of mach 9-10 or over, would be completed.  

    Sujoy wrote:India will receive the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 by 2021

    Not.
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    Post  dino00 Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:35 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    dino00 wrote:The question wasn't for me but this is a easy one...100% sure those missiles aren't for any Country that it's not named Russia.

    The long range missiles for India are 48N6E3 and 40N6E if India choose for the latter, because the big one is optional.  Surely India choose the 40N6E.
    But then what happens to Exo atmospheric interception? That's one major reason why India wants the S-400. Endo atmospheric interception can be carried out by the indigenous AAD/Ashwin

    In my opinion India cannot stop a massive Chinese conventional ballist missile attack in the near future. There is only the chance to via diplomacy de-escalate.
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    Post  Sujoy Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:04 am

    Mindstorm wrote:Option for effectively conduct this kind of operations with cruise missiles would open only after massive introduction of hypersonic missiles, with speed of mach 9-10 or over, would be completed.
      But the same tactics that you defined, which can be employed by S-400 operators against Brahmos can also be employed against any hypersonic cruise missile as well. Isn't it?

    Moreover, Chinese self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile and anti-aircraft artillery systems will protect S-400 and HQ-9 batteries deployed in Tibet.  So they can probably shoot down Brahmos or any Indian cruise missile.


    China is placing its bets on its Wing Loong drone that will be armed with anti radiation missile to target Indian SAM systems.

    If India has to take out Chinese SAM regiments, India will have to send in Special Forces to do that job.

    Mindstorm wrote:Not.
    Ok. Then this will be a cause of concern for India. Without 77N6-N and 77N6-N1, India will not be able to carry out exo atmospheric intercept. Especially when China decides to target locations across India using their ICBMs and SLBMs.

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