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Viktor
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26 posters

    S-400 SAM for India

    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:It is supposed to pressure US clients to purchase US products and also to pressure countries that can buy Russian or US weapons to choose US weapons.

    They have much, much worse tactics up their sleeves. They generally employ these tactics against third world countries.

    For instance if a start-up/SME in Asia, Africa comes up with a product (any product, not necessarily related to defence) that can rival a US, UK product or service, US government or companies hire local criminals to bump off the start up owner. They make these killings look like an accident so that such killings do not arise any suspicion.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:16 am

    They claim to offer the most morally mature and advanced and most civilised society model, yet they resort to tactics even their rivals and mortal enemies don't stoop to...

    Ironic that the boy who is crying wolf is so far more dangerous than any pack of wolves it is almost funny...

    For instance if a start-up/SME in Asia, Africa comes up with a product (any product, not necessarily related to defence) that can rival a US, UK product or service, US government or companies hire local criminals to bump off the start up owner. They make these killings look like an accident so that such killings do not arise any suspicion.

    Probably true but they will often steal it, or failing that buy it first and claim it as their own... and of course there is always the option of claiming it is necessary and a matter of national security to seize it legally using police officers to break in and take anything and everything related to the technology in question.

    The sad thing is that they are worse than the other guys they claim to be saving us from... as one person said during the 1990s in the criminal chaos... the gangsters are worse than the KGB... the KGB had rules and morality, the gangsters do as they please and might kill you even if you do fully cooperate... in this analogy the gangsters are threatening you with fairy tales of the KGB being worse and you are lucky to have your freedom and democracy... to be robbed by them.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:33 am

    They claim to offer the most morally mature and advanced and most civilised society model, yet they resort to tactics even their rivals and mortal enemies don't stoop to...

    Ironic that the boy who is crying wolf is so far more dangerous than any pack of wolves it is almost funny...

    Well the funny thing is that thanks to their internet people around the world can see how shitty they are, how their hollywood propaganda sucks, how their democracy is not a democracy ....

    Their empire last from 1991 with the fall of ussr till today when no one likes them anymore and they are losing their leadership in almost everything. They are becoming a lambda country with no more power.
    Pinto
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    S-400 SAM for India - Page 8 Empty Russia starts production of S-400 defence missile systems

    Post  Pinto Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:21 pm

    https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/russia-s-400-defence-missile-systems/


    Russia has started the production of S-400 long-range surface-to-air defence missile systems, with plans to deliver them to India by 2025.

    Russian deputy chief of mission Roman Babushkin said that the initial batch of the missile systems will be delivered by October this year, with the remaining batches expected to join the Indian Air Force (IAF) by 2023.

    In May 2018, India and Russia completed negotiations for the procurement of S-400 Triumf air defence missile systems to be deployed with the IAF in a deal valued at approximately Rs400bn ($5.92bn).

    The initial agreement was signed between the countries in 2016.

    India Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre said that the system can offer air defence coverage to vulnerable areas or points.

    Manufactured by Russian state-owned company Almaz-Antey, S-400 is an upgraded version of the S-300 and is capable of engaging and destroying targets such as cruise missiles, stealth aircraft, drones and medium-range ballistic missiles.

    Press Trust of India reported that the missile was earlier available only to the Russian Defence Forces and has been in service in the country since 2007.

    Recently, members of the Iraqi Parliament announced that the country was considering the purchase of the system.

    Lawmakers in the country noted the government’s decision to go ahead with negotiations for the purchase of these missile systems.

    According to a Pentagon report titled ‘Iran Military Power’ in November last year, Iran showed interest in purchasing S-400 systems and Bastian coastal defence systems from Russia.

    In July last year, Turkey’s Ministry of National Defence took delivery of the first components of S-400 systems in Ankara and later on announced plans in November to start their testing in spite of pressure from the US to stop the programme.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:08 pm

    Given that China has increased the number of IRBMs stationed in Tibet with the intention of targetting various Indian cities, India is pressing Russia to consider expediting the delivery of the S-400 Triumf.

    I think what Russia can do is send a few S- 400 regiments from its own inventory to India, as an outright sale. Unlike India, Russia has a massive SAM arsenal. So Russia has nothing to lose if 2-3 S-400 regiments are send to India.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/rajnath-singhs-russia-visit-india-to-urge-russia-to-rush-delivery-of-s-400-system/articleshow/76501432.cms

    dino00
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    Post  dino00 Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:17 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Given that China has increased the number of IRBMs stationed in Tibet with the intention of targetting various Indian cities, India is pressing Russia to consider expediting the delivery of the S-400 Triumf.

    I think what Russia can do is send a few S- 400 regiments from its own inventory to India, as an outright sale. Unlike India, Russia has a massive SAM arsenal. So Russia has nothing to lose if 2-3 S-400 regiments are send to India.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/rajnath-singhs-russia-visit-india-to-urge-russia-to-rush-delivery-of-s-400-system/articleshow/76501432.cms


    Russian systems are very different from export ones, China could ask the same... Russia would say obviously no to both.
    Russia could sell early versions of the S-300, but the best thing Russia should do is intermediate between them
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:50 pm

    dino00 wrote:Russian systems are very different from export ones
    Very different from the export version? How so?


    dino00 wrote:China could ask the same...
    China has already received 2 regiments of the S-400
    dino00
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    Post  dino00 Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:10 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    dino00 wrote:Russian systems are very different from export ones
    Very different from the export version? How so?


    dino00 wrote:China could ask the same...
    China has already received 2 regiments of the S-400

    If you talk about the radars and the missiles, the ranges are different, the speed of the missiles are different, the mathematical algorithm for the best flight profile is different, the engines are different, the propellant is different, the materials are different.
    Do you remember after the Syrians mistakenly shot down a Russian plane, Russia send there the S-300PM and Shoigu make sure to the Israelis that it had missiles with a range above 250 km...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:12 pm

    India should have bought some S300VM which are much cheaper (120-150 million $) than s400 (500 million $).

    They are very good at intercepting those chinese BM.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:40 pm

    dino00 wrote:If you talk about the radars and the missiles, the ranges are different, the speed of the missiles are different, , the engines are different, the propellant is different, the materials are different.
    I'm aware that the range of the missiles for the export version is less. But not sure why speed would be less. How are the propellant and material being used different from the export version?

    dino00 wrote:the mathematical algorithm for the best flight profile is different
    Again, not sure how it is different, but this seems to be a software factor that can easily be changed.

    dino00 wrote:Do you remember after the Syrians mistakenly shot down a Russian plane, Russia send there the S-300PM and Shoigu make sure to the Israelis that it had missiles with a range above 250 km...
    Even Syrian S-200 could have shot down Israeli aircraft, but it seems from the antics of the Syrian, they were not that well trained. Therefore, Russia had to send some experts to Syria.

    Isos wrote:India should have bought some S300VM which are much cheaper (120-150 million $) than s400 (500 million $).
    Probably did not want to concede the technological edge to China once China purchased the S-400. Besides India will probably get most of the missiles that are already part of the s-300VM complex.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:56 pm

    Probably did not want to concede the technological edge to China once China purchased the S-400. Besides India will probably get most of the missiles that are already part of the s-300VM complex.

    The missile of s-300VM can't be used by S-400. Advantage is that China doesn't have the system but they know s-400 very well.
    dino00
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    Post  dino00 Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:11 pm

    @Sujoy
    Why speed is different?

    That's one of the most important parameters in a missile, I remember reading an interview with one Russian missile designer, that questioned about the difference between export vs domestic version, said the speed is very important, also the range, number of channels, reaction time,etc... I am citing from memory.

    @Sujoy
    How are the propellant and material being used different from the export version?

    Because if they aren't they are giving state secrets, and Stalin said only a fool would give state secrets.

    @Dino00
    the mathematical algorithm for the best flight profile is different
    @Sujoy
    Again, not sure how it is different, but this seems to be a software factor that can easily be changed

    The flight profile is a good way to increase the range of a missile, maybe it's not that easy and the export version could not sustain the different flight profile, just speculating.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:27 pm

    Isos wrote:The missile of s-300VM can't be used by S-400. Advantage is that China doesn't have the system but they know s-400 very well.
    The 9M82M matches the kinematic range of the S-400 / SA-21 48N6E3. However, the range performance of the 9M82M/ME and 9M83M/ME missiles against aerial targets is not as good as the contemporary S-400 / SA-21 40N6 missile.

    In fact, the 9M96E/9M96E2 missiles have been credited to the S-300PMU1 and S-300PMU2 Favorit, which appears to have been the demonstration platform for prototypes of these missiles. Integration of these missiles on either of these systems will not present any challenges, due to backward compatibility in TELs and the use of a datalink supported active radar terminal seeker.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:19 pm

    The 9M82M matches the kinematic range of the S-400 / SA-21 48N6E3. However, the range performance of the 9M82M/ME and 9M83M/ME missiles against aerial targets is not as good as the contemporary S-400 / SA-21 40N6 missile.

    We are not sure that even Russia has started to use the 40N6 missiles which will very likely be used by S-500 in priority.

    Anyway you don't compare s-300VM against S-400 but against chinese airforce/cruise missile/Ballistic missiles. And against them both S-300VM and S-400 are very good but S-300VM being cheaper you can have more for the same price. And none of them needs 40N6 to deal with chinese ballistic missiles.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:41 pm

    As a note - 40N6 will be more aimed at hitting targets like AWAC's and other larger planes. And yes, it has been moved to the S-500 system as its lower engaged missile while S-500 will also feature a new missile for up to 600km range in order to deal with other kinds of targets and ballistic missiles.

    S-300V4 is more ideal for ballistic missile defense against SRBM's and MRBM's. This is very most ideal for India as Pakistan's missiles are mostly SRBM's and MRBM's. Hell, India can suffice with S-400 as 48N6DN missile was reported to have a range that had exceeded its 250km range and hit a target at around 320km's. That is what a former member here mentioned on another forums and provided some proof too. Those can be used to deal with jets at further ranges. But ultimately, fighter jets tend to fly at their range just outside of the engagement range of the S-400 and will fire the shots of their standoff missiles. So in this case, missile systems like Tor/Pantsir mixed with S-300VM and even S-350 is actually more ideal of a proper IADS compared to S-400 and others. That is of course my opinion but after seeing the events in Syria, that is what I think most will act for now on. SHORADS are actually now one of the most important air defense systems mixed with a system like S-300VM/4 for a good air defense spectrum. S-350 addition just makes it so much better as it gives pretty decent range (150km) but having more of the missiles for a better chance of surviving a mass strike. The next best addition to the IADS is the fighter jets with proper netlink.

    And that is India major issue. Their airforce has fancy equipment but no proper IADS. You think those Rafale's will communicate properly with the AD systems of Russian or Su-30MKI? I imagine India has their own datalink system but judging from the recent situation with Pakistan, I dont think they were very well refined compared to Pakistan's datalink. But I also understand India is fixing that. But I dont know how well though.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:55 pm

    Export missiles are more limited than domestic. Don't expect them to work better than advertized.

    I agree with you. Spending billions on S-400 is IMO pretty useless. Like you said they have lot of limitation and cheaper sytem in greater number that maybe less capable compared to s-400 but still very good against any modern threat is a better option.

    But the best defence is to destroy the enemy weapons before he can use them. That's why they also need some missiles. Iskander would be cery good against Pakistan because the it is a small country abd they can't hide their stuff far away from the border.

    China and India on the other hand are huge countries and SRBM would be rather hard to use against them because targets would be far away while the frontline troops would constantly move making hard to hit them. That's even more true for air bases, ports and stocks of munitions.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:59 pm

    No, I understand that the 48N6DM wont reach the same ranges that Russia would be able to.  Just saying though, even at 250km range it is sufficient for India's needs.  I mean, I dont blame Russia selling the S-400 to India as it makes good money for Russia and makes the system overall cheaper for Russia.  But ultimately it isn't as necessary to have compared to something like a S-300VM.  Heck, once S-500 comes out, it would be better to have a mix of S-500, S-350 then Tor/Pantsir.  

    No need for S-400 tbh.

    Iskanders are wonderful because they are quasi ballistic missiles so significantly harder or impossible to intercept. Issue is, they too aren't that cheap. And India makes their own ballistic missiles so it wouldn't be so hard for them to make en mass a SRBM or IRBM that is cheap and using a conventional warhead. And neither China nor Pakistan has much of anything worth its salt to counter the missiles so they dont have to be some kind of strange flight path missiles in order to hit their targets.

    Or go the Iran route - more long range cruise missiles.
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:47 pm

    Isos wrote:Export missiles are more limited than domestic
    More limited how? Only range of the SAM is more for domestic version.
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    Post  Isos Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:28 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Isos wrote:Export missiles are more limited than domestic
    More limited how? Only range of the SAM is more for domestic version.

    I mean if the spec says 200km for export version then it won't be more than 200km.

    If the spec says 200km for the domestic version then don't trust it because it is not official. They won't give such information.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:11 pm

    Isos wrote: Iskander would be cery good against Pakistan because the it is a small country abd they can't hide their stuff far away from the border.
    For Pakistan there is already the Brahmos ALCM which is now available. Then there is the Prithvi 2 (SS-250). Striking Pakistan won't be a problem for India.

    However, striking China maybe a problem. Barak 8 LR-SAM will certainly bring down a few Chinese IRBMs but won't be able to bring down all of them.

    So in the absence of enough SAM systems in place, India might not launch a missile strike deep inside China beyond Tibet.

    Isos wrote: but S-300VM being cheaper you can have more for the same price
    Will it be possible for Russia to ship a few regiments of S-300VM to India from its own inventory?
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    Post  Isos Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:27 pm

    Will it be possible for Russia to ship a few regiments of S-300VM to India from its own inventory?

    They have the V4 version. VM is export. I don't think so. For that matter they have more s-400 (around 64) which would be more likely if they need something really quickly.

    Indians are not trained on the VM anyway.

    But it's funny that after clashes with Paistani and chinese they need quickly lot of stuff and go to see russians.

    I guess thise game changer Rafale and israeli missiles are not that good.

    Maybe next move will be more old kilos instead of newly build french SSK... and lot of mi-35 instead of Apaches...
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:50 pm

    Isos wrote:But it's funny that after clashes with Paistani and chinese they need quickly lot of stuff and go to see russians.

    I guess thise game changer Rafale and israeli missiles are not that good.  

    Primarily because orders for S-400 were already placed in 2018. Similarly orders for Su 30MKI were already placed. What India is asking now is can Russia speed up the delivery process.

    Rafale from all accounts is an outstanding aircraft. But the important question that needs to be asked is, why did the Indian Air Force over the last 20 years place orders for 250 plus Su 30MKI if there was still a need for the Rafale?

    Israeli missiles like the Barak 8 will be used for point defense. It's India's equivalent of the S-350.

    India never placed order for an area defense SAM system with Israel or any other country. The S-400 would be the first of such systems.

    Also, if you need to know the first batch of Rafale has not arrived yet due to the lockdown in France. Will arrive next month. And India is also purchaing more Excalibur precision guided munition for the M 777 on an urgent basis.




    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:00 pm

    Rafale is a much newer platform. Rafale is also all accounts better than the Su-30MKI is (well, the one with newer radar) - detection/track range, lower RCS, stronger electronic suite, etc. MKI though has lots of upgrade options but overall the su-30 and sm have inherent flaws (larger RCS) that gives it a disadvantage. So to supplement it, the newer upgrades are to provide one of if not the strongest fighter based radar, the Irbis K. Bars and Bars M that India uses is semi decent but only for it's time (140km track range) but Russian Bars R kinda filled the gap by making it 250km range. RBK2 radar of Rafale will have performance not much less than that of Irbis K (roughly 300km so surpassing Bars R). So upgrade to Irbis E or some other hybrid radar design could spark new life into the MKI upgrade will bring advantages back into the Sukhoi favor
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:30 pm

    Well there is a guy on an indian or pakistani forum that knows some top officials from indian MoD that know results of rafale vs MKI tests.

    He said MKI had total advantage over rafale in dogfight.

    In BVR Rafale had the advantage with OLS (mki huge IR signature too) while the MKI had no difficulties tracking the rafale with its radar.

    Advantage of rafale today is its meteor. Its new AESA radar is said by french pilots to have 200km range against fighters which is less than mig-35 radar. Rafake low rcs is not a game changer as would be that of f22 or su-57. It's also underpowered and its radar doesn't have the same power as an irbis powered by sukhoi engines.

    IMO what india needs is a 200km r-77M as a priority upgrade as the MKI radar will pick up chinese and pakistani jet at very long range.

    I already posted the link somewhere here but it was some years ago.

    Edit: no radar were used actually. I can't find the topic but the guy is known as "Vstol jockey" on indian forums. He says to be a former IAF pilot. He recently said they will order 200 rafales more...

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:02 pm

    Export missiles are more limited than domestic. Don't expect them to work better than advertized.

    The Turkish said their S400s were better than promised...

    Heck, once S-500 comes out, it would be better to have a mix of S-500, S-350 then Tor/Pantsir.

    No need for S-400 tbh.

    I rather suspect domestic S-400 is cheaper than domestic S-500s.

    I also rather suspect S-500 wont be on its own anywhere... it will be like extra missiles added to a battery that requires ABM capability so most of the time an S-400 battery will get a dozen S-500 TELs and special radars attached to it... for many targets up to 4.8km/s the S-400 gets the job done and will likely be cheaper than any S-500 missile.

    Each layer has its purpose and of course remember that when trying to penetrate an air defence to hit targets deep inside Russian territory then weapons or aircraft have to cross multiple layers of defences defending other things... a sub launched ballistic missile might be launched from the Med at Moscow... an S-400/500 battery in the Crimea might detect it on its way past and shoot it down before it even gets anywhere close... if it is only moving at 4km/s they could use S-400 missiles for the kill...

    More limited how? Only range of the SAM is more for domestic version.

    They are always improving electronics so putting electronics that are not the latest in there can save money and use up old stuff so newer stuff can be used on domestic models.

    So in the absence of enough SAM systems in place, India might not launch a missile strike deep inside China beyond Tibet.

    Isn't that a good thing?

    Why are they thinking of launching any missiles into the territory of a nuclear power?

    MKI though has lots of upgrade options but overall the su-30 and sm have inherent flaws (larger RCS) that gives it a disadvantage.

    Yeah, because RCS has always been absolutely critical in air combat so far... the Yak-3 is a small aircraft... lets hear Americans tell us about how its small RCS makes it the best fighter of WWII...

    BTW BUK batteries seem to have detected Rafales at max range... do you not think RCS is just hype.

    Detection ranges for aircraft don't really change that much... an armed Rafale is not even nearly a stealthy aircraft... and I would say the extra weapon pylons being an Su-30 is more useful than being slightly more stealthy... which is not at all.

    So to supplement it, the newer upgrades are to provide one of if not the strongest fighter based radar, the Irbis K. Bars and Bars M that India uses is semi decent but only for it's time (140km track range) but Russian Bars R kinda filled the gap by making it 250km range. RBK2 radar of Rafale will have performance not much less than that of Irbis K (roughly 300km so surpassing Bars R). So upgrade to Irbis E or some other hybrid radar design could spark new life into the MKI upgrade will bring advantages back into the Sukhoi favor

    If India paid the Russians for the Flankers what they paid the French for their Rafales I am sure the Russians could provide excellent AESA radar options...

    He recently said they will order 200 rafales more...

    36 of them cost 8 billion... if they want 200 more that will be about 45 billion....

    Amusing that they think Meteor is so amazing... the Russians have had combined rocket ramjet missiles for more than 50 years.... the SA-6 has a rocket ramjet propulsion... it is not new.

    I rather suspect the next gen Russian AAM with scramjet propulsion will be eye watering in terms of performance...


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