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    AWACS-Command & Control aircrafts of RuAF

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:41 am

    I would suspect it would come down to cost and performance...

    If the A-100s are markedly superior and worth the extra money I am sure they will buy plenty of them, they are not totally different aircraft... I would expect quite a few components of the A-100 could be added to the A-50s to upgrade them over time.

    Remember these are not just radar planes.... that would make them AEW... these are AWACS, so they are the equivalent of a radar plus a command system... in the olden days that would equate to a radar and a control van to direct the defence via sending commands to aircraft and SAM units on the ground.

    The Su-57 will be a more capable fighter in some aspects than an Su-35, but in other aspects it wont... its main feature is stealth, which it would lose when carrying a full payload, and of course it will be rather more expensive than any non stealthy equivalent... Russia was never planning to replace its entire fighter aircraft fleet with stealthy aircraft... and I suspect the ratio of stealthy and non stealthy will depend on a lot of factors... including what the west does... but they have the Mig-35, the Su-35, and the various Su-30s as fighters and the MiG-31 as an interceptor and the Su-34 as a strike fighter, so they are not desperate to get hundreds into service quickly... they can take their time and get it right.

    Russia is a very big country and they could use a lot of AWACS and fighter aircraft, but they don't want to bankrupt themselves trying to match the US or NATO, or to be cool on the internet.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:29 pm

    A-50 doesn´t have a cargo ramp.

    And why spend millions to remove electronics from a plane if there are more than enough Il-76 parked at airfields which could be brought back for much less money?


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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:53 pm

    Hole wrote:A-50 doesn´t have a cargo ramp.
    And why spend millions to remove electronics from a plane if there are more than enough Il-76 parked at airfields which could be brought back for much less money?
    Ramps could be added; it won't cost $Ms to remove avionics; they r a lot more expensive to operate than smaller prop. planes, even for China; only a fraction of IL-76s in storage can be made flight worthy, & other planes must be cannibalized to do it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KJ-2000#Development

    They could save more $ by making a twin engine variant & use it to haul 20-30T until (& if) the IL-276 comes, & possibly longer.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:57 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add text)
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:31 am

    Ives wrote:Plus, Sentry is sorta old af, and new system should definetely show better results.

    Sent from Topic'it App

    true, but IMHO Isos was talking bout metrics to measure "betterness" . RCS depends on band used, so stealth can be detected by hundreds on kilometers in L but tens in X , right?

    US might not to be interested so much in stealth as Russians are. Simply Russians dont and unlikely will use so many stealth aircrafts. But AFAIK A-100 has ability to be also EW node.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:25 am

    They could make the A-50s into anything they wanted... they could remove most of the electronics for the radar and just put in 40-50 computer console positions and use it as an airborne command and control aircraft for UAVs a long way from Russia.

    You could send one to Syria and it could operate near the middle of the country well within the air defence network and with full radar coverage from other platforms and it could direct large numbers of UAVs with direct line of sight data links... in fact it could control air and ground based UAVs and even support operations of land and air Unmanned vehicles in urban combat... orbiting at a safe high altitude orbiting around the area.

    You could attach 30-40 under wing recon and targeting pods that each console user could use to look at a specific area below the aircraft and lase specific targets and follow individual ground based robot vehicles...

    Or you could put wing mounted weapon pylons and use it as a bomber... have a large internal mechanism to hold bombs and open up a hole in the floor like the have on some helos for winching up people from the ground except use it to release bombs straight downwards from a large rack system inside the fuselage.

    Lots of things you could use them for... but the obvious would be to update them with new engines and the new electronics of the A-100 system.

    Of course in 5 years time the new photonics radars might either make them obsolete, because a fighter sized radar could see further and better, or make them (large AWACS platforms) even more effective with a full super high resolution 360 degree view of the battlespace.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:52 am

    GarryB wrote:Of course in 5 years time the new photonics radars might either make them obsolete, because a fighter sized radar could see further and better, or make them (large AWACS platforms) even more effective with a full super high resolution 360 degree view of the battlespace.

    photonic radars is more into future than 5 years IMHO. As for large AWACS it is gonna continuously evolve. A-100 can become more battle mgmt post + EW for large area then radar itself.
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    Post  Arrow on Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:58 am

    photonic radars is more into future than 5 years IMHO. wrote:

    Russia is a leader in the development of photonic radars?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:They could make the A-50s into anything they wanted... they could remove most of the electronics for the radar and just put in 40-50 computer console positions and use it as an airborne command and control aircraft for UAVs a long way from Russia.

    You could send one to Syria and it could operate near the middle of the country well within the air defence network and with full radar coverage from other platforms and it could direct large numbers of UAVs with direct line of sight data links... in fact it could control air and ground based UAVs and even support operations of land and air Unmanned vehicles in urban combat... orbiting at a safe high altitude orbiting around the area.

    You could attach 30-40 under wing recon and targeting pods that each console user could use to look at a specific area below the aircraft and lase specific targets and follow individual ground based robot vehicles...

    Or you could put wing mounted weapon pylons and use it as a bomber... have a large internal mechanism to hold bombs and open up a hole in the floor like the have on some helos for winching up people from the ground except use it to release bombs straight downwards from a large rack system inside the fuselage.

    Lots of things you could use them for... but the obvious would be to update them with new engines and the new electronics of the A-100 system.

    Of course in 5 years time the new photonics radars might either make them obsolete, because a fighter sized radar could see further and better, or make them (large AWACS platforms) even more effective with a full super high resolution 360 degree view of the battlespace.

    Israeli did good job in transforming their civil planes into military ones. It's a cheap and fast way of getting a system that works fine without the need of producing it in serial production.

    I would keep some A-50U for the naval aviation. 2 in the north and 2 in the pacific and some specialized in finding ships with a reduced crew, less equipment but more fuel for longer range patrol. It has a much better radar than il-38 for that role and why not with hardpoints for kh-35. Some able to launch biger missiles through a bay would be good too.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:47 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    Russia is a leader in the development of photonic radars?


    in hypersonic tech is 10-15 years Russia is ahead of any western country. As for rofar who else is working on them for military purposes? perhaps China and the former USA as well. Who else? never heard, maybe in your country?
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:54 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Israeli did good job in transforming their civil planes into military ones. It's a cheap and fast way of getting a system that works fine without the need of producing it in serial production.

    I would keep some A-50U for the naval aviation. 2 in the north and 2 in the pacific and some specialized in finding ships with a reduced crew, less equipment but more fuel for longer range patrol. It has a much better radar than il-38 for that role and why not with hardpoints for kh-35. Some able to launch biger missiles through a bay would be good too.

    Il-38 is gonna be replaced by A-40 flying boats. A-50 might be not bad idea but you need to introduce many changes there.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:05 pm


    Il-38 is gonna be replaced by A-40 flying boats. A-50 might be not bad idea but you need to introduce many changes there.

    Not really. The radar can already detect ships. Remove all the command posts and antennas that are not needed and add a data link with the navy communication tools.

    It could work with 2 or 3 operators with modern radars processing computers. I mean for the anti ship version.

    The awacs version to assists the su30 would be the same.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:08 pm

    Isos wrote:Not really. The radar can already detect ships. Remove all the command posts and antennas that are not needed and add a data link with the navy communication tools.

    It could work with 2 or 3 operators with modern radars processing computers. I mean for the anti ship version.

    The awacs version to assists the su30 would be the same.

    true, nonetheless Il-38 is anti-sub aircraft and if A-50 was to be one then they need to rebuild it
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    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:19 pm

    Il-38 has also a big radar on the top to look for ships. But it has a small range. Something like 90km against aircraft.

    Anti sub would be very hard to implement. I was thinking about only an anti ship detector. Antisub can be done by il-38 and future aircraft designed for that.

    But giving some A-50 to the naval avition would be a great move since they lack AWACS. Above water they would detect any fighter/missile trying to go inside russia since there is no mountains to hide behind. The s-400 waiting on the beach would be used at max range pretty easily.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:24 pm

    IMO, more Tu-95/-142s could be converted to ASW duties for le$$.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:07 am

    Israeli did good job in transforming their civil planes into military ones. It's a cheap and fast way of getting a system that works fine without the need of producing it in serial production.

    Everyone did that... C-130, Il-38, Il-20, Il-22, etc etc.

    Il-38 has also a big radar on the top to look for ships. But it has a small range. Something like 90km against aircraft.

    Anti sub would be very hard to implement. I was thinking about only an anti ship detector. Antisub can be done by il-38 and future aircraft designed for that.

    I suspect in the longer term space based sensors will be used for tracking surface shipping...


    But giving some A-50 to the naval avition would be a great move since they lack AWACS. Above water they would detect any fighter/missile trying to go inside russia since there is no mountains to hide behind. The s-400 waiting on the beach would be used at max range pretty easily.

    Carrier based AWACS would be even more portable and useful...

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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Carrier based AWACS would be even more portable and useful...

    But of course you need the carriers for them first.
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    Post  Hole on Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:26 pm

    Isos wrote:Il-38 has also a big radar on the top to look for ships. But it has a small range. Something like 90km against aircraft.

    Anti sub would be very hard to implement. I was thinking about only an anti ship detector. Antisub can be done by il-38 and future aircraft designed for that.

    But giving some A-50 to the naval avition would be a great move since they lack AWACS. Above water they would detect any fighter/missile trying to go inside russia since there is no mountains to hide behind. The s-400 waiting on the beach would be used at max range pretty easily.

    The radar of the Il-38 is under the belly. The thing on top of the Il-38N and Il-38SD is an ESM system.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:30 am

    But of course you need the carriers for them first.

    Of course you do, but it is like the argument about lend lease during WWII, when the Soviets had tens of thousands of trucks sent to them via lend lease... they are hardly going to commit a lot of factory floor space to building the number of trucks they would need, they could then focus more on things they did not have sufficient numbers of.

    If they are planning to build carriers, then there is an expectation that it would carry either an AEW (Ka-35) or AWACS platform that operates from the carrier... the two main features of a carrier for the navy is providing aircraft for attack or defence (fighter/bomber/interceptor) and for early warning and control of fighters/bombers/interceptors so that didn't need to come from the ships...

    You could develop a naval platform with a radar like the Tu-142 and Il-38 did, but unlike the radar in an AWACS platform those radar were more optimised for searching for ships or parts of a submarine sticking out of the water... ie periscope or conning tower...

    A carrier borne AWACS platform could do all of the above, and would be valuable in increasing the reaction time to threats without requiring any enormous leap in terms of technology or capacity... well nothing they are not already working on.
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    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:44 pm

    Russia’s Aerospace Force gets sixth upgraded A-50U radar surveillance aircraft

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1051028
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    Post  LMFS on Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:35 am

    And the seventh one is expected for 2021... taking it easy Cool
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    Post  Hole on Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:14 am

    New A-100 is already tested. Programmes will be running along each other.
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    Post  AMCXXL on Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:37 pm

    George1 wrote:Russia’s Aerospace Force gets sixth upgraded A-50U radar surveillance aircraft

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1051028

    6th A-50U Nº42 RF-50610


    Now there ar 6 A-50U in service: Nº33 , 37 , 41 , 42 , 45 , 47
    Also there are 3 A-50 completing the AWACS squadron of Ivanovo: Nº43 , 50 , 51 , to be modernized in next years
    Also Nº52 was used for A-100LL prototype
    AWACS-Command & Control aircrafts of RuAF - Page 9 91679d10


    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:30 pm

    They don't paint them in dark grey/black like the first one ? It was a much better color, much more agressive. Sad
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    Post  medo on Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:41 pm

    White is better over Arctic region.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:09 am

    7th A-50 aircraft to the A-50U level will be handed over to the customer in 2021

     As part of the Russian Aerospace Forces, all combat aircraft of the A-50 series are part of the aviation unit deployed at the Ivanovo-Severny airfield, which since 2010 has been called the aviation group of the combat use of long-range radar detection aircraft of the 610th center of combat use and retraining of flight crews (aviation personnel - transport aviation) of the 4th State Center for Aviation Personnel Training and Military Testing.

    The unit now has 13 A-50 airplanes and six A-50U airplanes, not counting several A-50 airplanes in storage.

    Russian Air Force (VKS) possesses a total of 22 A-50 aircraft, including those stored.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3590325.html

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