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55 posters

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter

    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:06 pm

    Podlodka wrote:Regarding weapons and what I wrote, I would not repeat myself except that I think the Chinese have better planes and better ships and better non-nuclear submarines and better electronics.

    Which has been proven wrong by the Syrians and Egyptians multiple times in practice

    I doubt China could even perform a limited military operation in Taiwan

    Most of the equipment is untested, and they have little knowledge of conducting limited military operations like SMO

    On the other hand China's economy is dependent on the west. Without the west, Chinese GDP would be reduced to a half or worse overnight

    And those billion Chinese would riot in hunger-

    China is not a threat at all, it is just the factory of the western countries - All those factories produce the same amounts of junk that you like to call consumerism -

    It is in warehouses across the west , but if there is no dollar to fund the consumption, Guangzhou industrial parks will be rust, like Ohio and Michigan became

    Hopefully the west does not go bankrupt, the day it does, is the day Beijing will go down with it

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:19 pm

    This is a widespread misconception. 20% of China's GDP is exports. Compare this with 40% in South Korea or 45% in Germany. For comparison in Russia 30% of the GDP is exports and in the USA it is 10%. In France, UK, and Italy exports are around 30% of GDP. So China's economy is actually less dependent on exports than Russia's is.

    So if anything China has lower footprint of exports in GDP than most industrial countries. China's internal economy is massive. There are no other words to describe it.

    China's salaries are higher than in places like Vietnam or Mexico, a lot of the cheap assembly industries have been moving out of China for close to a decade by now. China has since been moving on from those industries like making toys, clothes or shoes, to making consumer electronics, and components. They also are the world's largest manufacturer of solar panels and electric batteries. They just became the world's largest car exporter.

    But China depends on critical imports for several products. Their agricultural sector is highly inefficient for example, while they could feed themselves if supplies were cut, people's diets would basically go back to eating rice and little else. They also are not self-sufficient in energy terms be it oil or gas. What they do have though is plenty of coal.
    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Jun 10, 2023 7:55 pm

    My friend, the US - China trade balance was 700 billion USD in 2022

    And you are talking about a domestic market?

    They don't need J20s, they need to build railways throughout Central Asia if they hope to become independent,

    Otherwise Guangzhou, Tianjin and Shenyang will keep making junk for Amazon and Walmart
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:43 pm

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 12 Image57

    So what about US-China trade balance. China's GDP is close to $18 trillion USD.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:38 pm

    18 trillion, yes with 77% debt to GDP

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 12 Nation10


    So how big is the internal market? If 77% is printed currency, then really 5 to 6 trillion is equity

    Russian economy is 16% debt to GDP, meaning 84% of it is purely equity

    Much more sustainable, and less dependent on one trade partner

    As I said, COVID proved if the west closes, China goes down, and if China closes the west goes down

    For now they are very much shackled together

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:51 pm

    I really can't stand this idiot Arkhangelsk and his cretinous euphoric lyrics.
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:52 pm

    So what? Most Chinese debt is internal. It is just numbers on a balance sheet.

    Right now the Chinese economy is experiencing deflation. You know what means? They could print more money to erase the debt and no one would even bat an eyelid.

    China still has way less debt overall than Western economies do. And unlike Western countries, they actually have something to show for that they got thanks to that debt, namely actual infrastructure. High speed rail, subways, huge cities, etc.

    China has nine subway systems larger than the one in New York. And six of them were only even started in the mid 2000s.

    When COVID-19 struck the US was giving its citizens free money for staying at home. They were printing dollars until the moon. And China did nothing like that. Which is why the US economy is experiencing inflation and Chinese economy deflation.

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Sat Sep 02, 2023 8:17 am

    Right now, Wikipedia lists the Chinese as having 210+ J-20's in service. That would be cool. I want it to be true because I want China to kick the shit out of the US when the Taiwan war starts. But 210 ? That sounds like a lot. And how did this number come up ?
    George1
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    Post  George1 Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:06 pm

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Sep 14, 2024 10:27 am

    Backman wrote:Right now, Wikipedia lists the Chinese as having 210+ J-20's in service. That would be cool. I want it to be true because I want China to kick the shit out of the US when the Taiwan war starts. But 210 ? That sounds like a lot. And how did this number come up ?

    When you have a real industry it's not impressive.

    They invest massively in new hardware because most of chinese stuff is still very old.

    Many talk shit about that fighter but if they produced that many it's certainly good enough for them.
    Tolstoy
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    Post  Tolstoy Tue Nov 12, 2024 8:54 am

    Top notch Chinese manufacturing and now at scale

    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Nov 12, 2024 9:48 am

    Backman wrote:Right now, Wikipedia lists the Chinese as having 210+ J-20's in service. That would be cool. I want it to be true because I want China to kick the shit out of the US when the Taiwan war starts. But 210 ? That sounds like a lot. And how did this number come up ?
    Won't happen in the foreseeable future. China scrapped all plans of a limited conflict because the US has demonstrated that it will escalate to the threshold of WW3 if it gets caught with its pants down. China will take Taiwan, but they have no answer for a blockade of ME energy supplies enforced on the Indian Ocean.
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Tue Nov 12, 2024 12:27 pm

    Isos wrote:When you have a real industry it's not impressive.
    They invest massively in new hardware because most of chinese stuff is still very old.
    Many talk shit about that fighter but if they produced that many it's certainly good enough for them.
    Not really. While the Chinese still have hundreds of really old aircraft the majority of them would not be less capable than the ones the US has. Even their cheap single engine fighter the J-10 is more capable than most of the F-16s in service in the US by virtue of being a newer design.

    Wikipedia's claims of 210+ J-20 aircraft is erroneous. People in the know claim close to 300 J-20 aircraft with 100 J-20 aircraft produced being annually by them right now.

    So the Chinese produce as many heavy twin engine 5th gen fighter aircraft as the US produces medium single engine aircraft. And unlike the US this production is all going to their Air Force, not split over zillions of US satrapies.

    Half of their aircraft are modern J-20 and J-16 aircraft. And most of the others are either Flankers or the J-10. I think they no longer have any J-8 in operation anywhere, and the J-7 should be going the same route soon.
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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Tue Nov 12, 2024 12:36 pm

    ikipedia's claims of 210+ J-20 aircraft is erroneous. People in the know claim close to 300 J-20 aircraft with 100 J-20 aircraft produced being annually by them right now. wrote:

    Impressive production Shocked Shocked . That's how it should be with the Su-57. China started working on the J-20 later and already has 300 of them. Of course, the J-20 is probably not as good as the Su-57 in many aspects.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Thu Nov 21, 2024 9:10 pm

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 22, 2024 2:03 am

    Impressive production Shocked Shocked . That's how it should be with the Su-57.

    It is impressive production, but Russia does not need enormous numbers of Su-57s any more than the US needs 1,000 F-22s.

    The US can't afford F-22s and is retiring them so they can spend money on F-35s.... buy more F-35s I say... it is killing them economically... and as they wont be able to just print more money when the US dollar is no longer the dominant currency of trade they will be faced with some very hard decisions... like do we need 800 military bases around the world?

    F-35s are destroying their military... the more they buy the better.
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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Fri Nov 22, 2024 3:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Impressive production Shocked Shocked . That's how it should be with the Su-57.

    It is impressive production, but Russia does not need enormous numbers of Su-57s any more than the US needs 1,000 F-22s.

    The US can't afford F-22s and is retiring them so they can spend money on F-35s.... buy more F-35s I say... it is killing them economically... and as they wont be able to just print more money when the US dollar is no longer the dominant currency of trade they will be faced with some very hard decisions... like do we need 800 military bases around the world?

    F-35s are destroying their military... the more they buy the better.

    Retiring the F-22 is somewhat false. 32 of the F-22 in the Block 20 version has been up for discussion because it would cost about 50 million US Dollars each to update these to the Block 30/35 versions. The airforce would rather spend this money somewhere else, perhaps on new F-35s. This has been blocked by lawmakers until atleast 2028.
    The rest of the fleet, 155 block 30/35 fighters, will likley remain until the next generation (6) fighters come in to service.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 23, 2024 3:38 am

    Retiring is exactly the right word... in fact premature retirement is a better description... much like the first tranche Typhoons being scrapped because it is cheaper to scrap them and make brand new later model versions than it is to upgrade them... and ironically I think they might find the same issue with F-35s as they eventually get around to working out some of its bugs that might require rather significant changes and upgrades and improvements... a lot of the already produced aircraft might end up getting scrapped despite costing so much in the first place.... of course that is why they call it the bleeding edge of technology... it is the leading edge, but it is expensive and can hurt when you get it wrong... because it is very unlikely you will always get it right.

    The situation for the US and the west would look OK if the F-35 was an Su-75 type aircraft that is modern and sophisticated but cheap to buy and cheap to operate in numbers because it is a numbers aircraft.

    Of course the US F-35 can never be that because they don't have a heavy more capable Su-57 to operate with it... they simply don't have enough F-22s for the job when they ended production and it is even worse now... so the F-35 is being the Su-57 and Su-75 and that is why it is so expensive and most of the capabilities don't work properly yet.

    When they started talking about the F-22 they wanted 1,500 aircraft, but the end of the cold war it was cut to half... 750 they wanted... they ended up with 189 because the Russian AF was finished and the Chinese AF was a joke... mostly 3rd gen ex soviet types by number... with a couple of Flankers to look modern... if you could time travel from the mid 1990s to now it would be like a totally different planet. I remember talking to American teenagers who were convinced by 2010 Europe and the US would have thousands of F-35s in service and the Russians will have bought the hand me down F-16s and be flying those because they could no longer make their own aircraft. That was the American dream... third world gas station with nukes...

    If you don't believe me watch Terminator 2... when the kid is told by the terminator that Skynet will launch nuclear weapons at Russia the kid asks why they would do that... they are our friends now... The response of course is to get them to launch a full scale nuclear attack on the west which would essentially to get the human race to wipe out much of the human race... of course the machines would have suffered more than humans with lack of power and raw materials, even if the automated factories were fully intact and unharmed they are not fully automated and able to run on their own. Ask an American kid these days about nuking Russia and they will get excited and say... go for it....

    Back on topic...

    This J-35 looks like a much better aircraft... the shape is slimmer and would probably allow much higher flight speed.... if you look at the F-35 and the J-35 it is like the difference between the MiG-29 and F-16... the F16 has a huge very powerful but also very expensive engine, but its fixed air intake limits its top speed to mach 2, while the smaller less powerful engines in the MiG-29 add up to more thrust, and when they improve the thrust they get double the effect. An extra 1 ton of thrust for the engine means two tons extra thrust for the aircraft...

    The J-35 might be inferior in some respects to the F-35 but I would rather expect it would be what the F-35 was supposed to be... a light affordable numbers fighter bomber... and problems will be fixed...

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