Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

I wonder what kind of range they can get with winglets and half the speed.

mnztr wrote:I wonder what kind of range they can get with winglets and half the speed.

The INF Treaty is dead, micro-cruise missiles for 300mm Smerch could easily get beyond 500km in range.

How far could a 122mm go do you think? 150km?

One third of its length of solid rocket propellent could be replaced with a ramjet motor and a couple of dozens of litres of liquid propellent... launch it like normal and then before it accelerates to full speed (because of 1/3rd less solid rocket fuel) you could start up the ramjet to run for a couple of minutes... the solid rocket fuel is high energy fast burn so it would only burn for a few seconds or tens of seconds, while in comparison the ramjet could run for minutes... it could run even longer at very low power settings that just eliminate drag and let it cruise along for enormous distances, or it could run for a shorter period with a higher thrust setting allow it to climb and move rather fast at higher altitudes.

The nose mounted artillery fuses with GLONASS and control fins to steer the artillery shell to target could be used on these rockets to steer them towards their target at much greater ranges...

You would need precision guidance because the enormous range these could be used at the spread and inaccuracy of standard rockets would make them totally ineffective.

Smerch used gyros to keep the rockets from a volley closer to each other to increase their effect on target, but if you want a 100km plus weapon to hit a point target then ground launched Hermes and LMURS missiles seem to be a better choice.

Grad is excellent for what it is already...

GarryB wrote:One third of its length of solid rocket propellent could be replaced with a ramjet motor and a couple of dozens of litres of liquid propellent... launch it like normal and then before it accelerates to full speed (because of 1/3rd less solid rocket fuel) you could start up the ramjet to run for a couple of minutes... the solid rocket fuel is high energy fast burn so it would only burn for a few seconds or tens of seconds, while in comparison the ramjet could run for minutes... it could run even longer at very low power settings that just eliminate drag and let it cruise along for enormous distances, or it could run for a shorter period with a higher thrust setting allow it to climb and move rather fast at higher altitudes.

The nose mounted artillery fuses with GLONASS and control fins to steer the artillery shell to target could be used on these rockets to steer them towards their target at much greater ranges...

You would need precision guidance because the enormous range these could be used at the spread and inaccuracy of standard rockets would make them totally ineffective.

Smerch used gyros to keep the rockets from a volley closer to each other to increase their effect on target, but if you want a 100km plus weapon to hit a point target then ground launched Hermes and LMURS missiles seem to be a better choice.

Grad is excellent for what it is already...

Thinking of a cheaper way to extend range. 122mm grads are a purely ballistic projectile now. Ramjets are expensive and complex. They can just have a simple spring loaded wing that pops out after launch with pyrotecnic release as fuel burns, and have a slower burning fuel post boost that sustains the missile for the rest of the journey. If they want, a guidance warhead like Krasnapol can be added for precision targets.

. Ramjets are expensive and complex.

Actually the opposite is true... a ramjet is essentially a hollow metal tube where air goes in and is compressed, a little fuel is added and combustion takes place heating the air and creating thrust.

Ramjets will run on cheap fuel, compared with solid rocket fuel it is super cheap.

You could 3D print a ramjet quite cheaply...

They can just have a simple spring loaded wing that pops out after launch with pyrotecnic release as fuel burns, and have a slower burning fuel post boost that sustains the missile for the rest of the journey.

Solid rocket fuel by weight is about one quarter fuel and three quarters oxygen generating material used to burn in an enclosed space with the fuel.

Ramjet fuel could be a quarter of the weight of the solid rocket fuel and would be ideal if you don't want super high energy very short thrust propulsion.

Longer burn propulsion with a ramjet or even pulse detonation engine like on the V1 doodle bug would be much cheaper and better suited to the problem...

Ironically the new long range 152mm shells that are supposed to fire 180km might be even more efficient...

If they want, a guidance warhead like Krasnapol can be added for precision targets.

Range means nothing without accuracy unless we are talking about nuclear armed rockets...

They are already developing powered Hermes missiles that can manouver as they attack targets to evade enemy air defences... isn't that good enough on its own?

The principal of ramjets is simple, but you need materials and pumps. The most brilliantly designed ramjet I can think of today is in the KH-31 where it uses the rocket booster as a combustion chamber for a ramjet. But you will still need air intakes that will complcate tube launch. The rocket today has plenty of energy, and it still has lots of energy when it hits its target. The Grad rocket is not a precision weapon and I would say saturation is also a valuable capability although of course a degree of accuracy is required. But a CEP of 100-150M would be ok when firing at a large target with 40 missiles. It would also allow the GRAD to fire a much flatter trajectory to avoid Iron Dome type weapons. It would be very easy to add "non-precison" range guidance with a simple fusing mechanism or airburst the rounds. It would allow them to use the vast inventory of launchers they have today while increasing capability by orders of magnitude.

The principal of ramjets is simple, but you need materials and pumps.

Already developed to a highly sophisticated level... even a motor car has pumps and fuel systems, as do motor bikes and lawn mowers and petrol driven edge trimmers...

In comparison solid rocket fuel is very expensive.

The most brilliantly designed ramjet I can think of today is in the KH-31 where it uses the rocket booster as a combustion chamber for a ramjet.

To be fair the SA-6 surface to air missile has been doing that for more than 50 years... they have a lot of missiles that use the combined rocket ramjet design.

The main alternatives was strap on booster rockets like the SA-4 missiles, or solid rocket stages like the western Sea Dart and a few US Naval missiles.

Obviously strapon boosters make it wider and solid rocket boosters make it longer...

But you will still need air intakes that will complcate tube launch.

Why would it complicate tube launch?

The Yakhont/Onyx/Brahmos has a fairing cover over a nose mounted air intake for its ramjet engine... newer higher speed missiles tend to use rectangular shaped air intakes for better air flow control than older round intakes like the nose intake on a MiG-21.

The rocket today has plenty of energy, and it still has lots of energy when it hits its target.

Having to carry all its fuel and its air supply to burn that fuel makes it heavier and shorter ranged than a jet engine.

Don't you think there is a reason jet engines are used for propulsion for aircraft these days... just having to carry the fuel and scooping up the air on the way makes it much more energy efficient...

The Grad rocket is not a precision weapon and I would say saturation is also a valuable capability although of course a degree of accuracy is required.

What I am trying to point out is that Grads don't need to be turned into single shot precision super long range missiles... the Grads are optimised for use against area targets, where precision is not critical, and a large volume of simple cheap rockets is what makes them effective.

If you want longer range well there is already Uragan and Smerch, and if the target is a single object then Hermes has terminal guidance and will soon get terminal manouvering capability to evade air defences too.

Even 152mm gun artillery will reach 180km with guidance...

The need for new super long range Grad rockets does not really make sense in my opinion... they already have submunition and anti armour rockets and can blanket a wide area in HE and fragments... if you want guided missile long range accuracy then the Kh-50 is a 1,500km range guided cruise missile...

It would also allow the GRAD to fire a much flatter trajectory to avoid Iron Dome type weapons.

A high altitude release submunition warhead would render Iron Dome useless... the 9M218 has 45 HEAT submunitions per rocket out to 30km range, so a volley of 40 rockets means 1,800 submunitions to intercept per vehicle... a 6 vehicle unit means almost 11,000 submunitions to intercept... so how good is Iron Dome again?

Of course the 9N176 is the 300mm Smerch equivalent which has 646 HEAT munitions in each rocket, so about 46 thousand munitions from 6 trucks with 12 rockets each...

It would be very easy to add "non-precison" range guidance with a simple fusing mechanism or airburst the rounds. It would allow them to use the vast inventory of launchers they have today while increasing capability by orders of magnitude.

They have an enormous range of alternatives in their arsenal, and these unguided area target weapons remain very useful in very specific situations.

Making them precision guided will be making the same mistake the west has made... the unguided rocket is a sledge hammer, not a scalpel, and trying to make it a scalpel will make it too expensive to use in the numbers that make it effective.

By all means new types of rockets make sense, but don't lose sight of what they are for.

Problem is with the advent of drones these can easily be spotted and taken out with artilliary today. Increasing range to 100 km using glide munitions would allow them to deliver from outside the range of guns.

Problem is with the advent of drones these can easily be spotted and taken out with artilliary today. Increasing range to 100 km using glide munitions would allow them to deliver from outside the range of guns.

The presence of drones makes little real difference... you form up... you launch and then you move to a new location and then reload.

With the new systems reloading and targeting and launching are greatly sped up processes that should allow these units to operate in relative safety.

In COIN type operations when has the enemy ever been able to apply counter battery fire on a mobile unit?

In Vietnam the US used fixed artillery fire bases and tried to support operations with the fire from these fixed fire bases, but obviously such fixed artillery bases were attacked by ground forces.

The improvements in accuracy and range of artillery guns and rockets the prospect of artillery support bases in Syria along with the precision of the weapons makes it an interesting potential solution to providing 24/7 support to operations nearby.

Being able to land 40kg shells on target 70km away and later 180km away in any weather day or night starts to look like a rather useful capability... even more so from a mobile force.

The protection from enemy counter battery fire and drones would simply be mobility and the normal anti drone technology and equipment.

Currently, the troops are receiving two versions of new multiple launch rocket systems. The large-caliber Tornado-S will replace the 300-mm Smerchi and 220-mm Hurricanes currently in service. For the rearmament of units equipped with outdated 122-mm Grads, the Tornado-G was developed.

"Tornado-S" outwardly differs little from the usual MLRS "Smerch". Retained the system and the number of firing guides - 12. The main changes affected ammunition and electronics. "Tornadoes" and "Hurricanes" were used for the most part to fire in the squares. The main use case for the new combat vehicles is targeted strikes with guided munitions against priority targets.

So the new artillery systems look rather like the old Smerch and Grad systems... they are not going forward with those pallet carrying launchers...

That light vehicle with a single pallet on a light truck presumably would be used for perhaps airborne or light recon use perhaps heli lifted?

UMP universal mine laying system.

JohninMK wrote:A small concert by the crews of the TOS-1A "Solntsepёk" fire support systems!

Not that often you get a drone's eye view of the destination of an MLRS salvo.

Video at link https://twitter.com/neccamc1/status/1379711164435824642

The Twitter post seems to suggest this is some recent footage, but in fact that's an old video from 1.5 years ago, and this has nothing to do with any recent live exercises or the recent hostilities in the Donbass. Check the video date of when this was uploaded (September 20th, 2019).

It is funny, if you read some posts on that twitter account... the evil Russians are interfering and are getting involved... the bastards... but are successfully hiding their interference.

Amusing because HATO and the US also have troops and weapons in that country, and the government they have been supporting has been shelling and bombing people it claims are also ukrainian with Russians in their midst... with HATO forces in their midst.

Like the problem in the region is the potential presence of Russians and not the fact that the Kiev government has been shelling and bombing its own citizens for not following laws preventing them speaking the language they want to speak and have done for a very long time.

This is some of the most absurd marketing propaganda I've ever SEEN!!!

https://twitter.com/FeWoessner/status/1381954105694904334

The Israeli's have lost their damn minds?! A single drone laser system capable of not only tracking all the rockets but even neutralizing all the rockets fired from multiple BM-21 Grad MLRS (40 rockets per vehicle, capable of firing them all within 20 seconds), and there's people who actually believe this bullshit?!?! Get The Fuck Outta Here!!! I doubt a single laser drone could handle a solitary BM-21 Grads, let alone multiple Grad MLRS...and the success rate would probably be under 5%. The guy who made this marketing video must moonlight as a driver for Uber for their clown-car division lol!!!

In Russia, began the development of a new light MLRS caliber 80-mm


The Russian army can get into service with a new light multiple launch rocket system (MLRS) of 80-mm caliber, the development of the complex is already underway.

Work on the new MLRS began at the NPO "Splav" named after A. N. Ganichev, which is the developer of all the multiple launch rocket systems in service with the Russian troops. To date, the development is at the stage of determining the technical appearance of the complex, the next stage will be the creation of a prototype and its testing. If the military are satisfied with the proposed characteristics, the work will be continued.

As told "RIA News" Aleksandr Kochkin, executive director of Tekhmash, representatives of the Ministry of Defense were shown the concept of a new light MLRS and its planned appearance. The military requested a wheeled chassis for the complex as a base one, and also determined the range of tasks that the new complex should solve. Taking these requirements into account, a new mini-system will be created.

According to preliminary data, the new light MLRS will be able to be installed on cars, and use unguided weapons as ammunition. aviation missiles of the S-8 type of 80-mm caliber, taken as a basis. It is possible that in the future, special ammunition of increased range and power will be developed for the new complex.

Note that in 2018, the Ministry of Defense completed state tests of the new NAR S-8OFP "Armor-piercer", designed to destroy light armored vehicles and surface ships at a distance of up to 6 km. Its peculiarity is that, depending on the task, it can explode when it hits an obstacle, in front of it or behind an obstacle. The new rocket continued the line of the C-8 family of missiles, differing from the basic version with a charge power that exceeded the previous samples by 5-6 times.

https://en.topwar.ru/182007-v-rossii-nachalas-razrabotka-novoj-legkoj-rszo-kalibra-80-mm.html

Old project, 9P139 MRLS

They already had strictly observing UAV's incorporated in to Grad/Tornado-G, Uragan/Tornado-U, and Smerch/Tornado-S for several decades, and now in a natural evolution they might be getting cold-launching loitering munitions either incorporated in those aforementioned systems and or utilized in a completely separate system.

https://www.russiadefence.net/t8022p375-uavs-in-russian-armed-forces-news-2#321495