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    Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:24 pm

    Plus the 76 Su-57 are till 2028. That is a long time from now. They will invest in more Su-35 to accommodate the low acceptance of Su-57.

    That's 9.5 su-57 per year. Being more complicated than a su-30 or su-35 it means full production all the 8 years. I wouldn't be surprised if the work for 1 su57 equals to the work for 2 or 3 su-30SM.


    They do but its a different plant altogether (KnaAPO). Irkutsk plant is producing the Su-30SM and they already made demands for fitting Irbis radar and Su-35 electronics/engines on it. This demand was made by MoD themselves. So they will for sure end up purchasing more.

    Aren't they going to use Irkutsk plant for MS-21 ?

    And if I'm not wrong they use it for ssj-100 also which will come in a 100% russian version and take more space.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:26 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Plus the 76 Su-57 are till 2028. That is a long time from now. They will invest in more Su-35 to accommodate the low acceptance of Su-57.

    That's 9.5 su-57 per year. Being more complicated than a su-30 or su-35 it means full production all the 8 years. I wouldn't be surprised if the work for 1 su57 equals to the work for 2 or 3 su-30SM.


    They do but its a different plant altogether (KnaAPO). Irkutsk plant is producing the Su-30SM and they already made demands for fitting Irbis radar and Su-35 electronics/engines on it. This demand was made by MoD themselves. So they will for sure end up purchasing more.

    Aren't they going to use Irkutsk plant for MS-21 ?

    And if I'm not wrong they use it for ssj-100 also which will come in a 100% russian version and take more space.

    SSJ-100 isn't done by Irkutsk Plant.  Its done by KnaAPO.  Su-30SM, they wanted to drop its production initially but the demand for it is rather high - both at home and abroad.

    And since they moved the Yak-130 production over to Sokol plant, that means they would have only 2 plane types to manufacture at the plant.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:02 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    SSJ-100 isn't done by Irkutsk Plant.  Its done by KnaAPO.  Su-30SM, they wanted to drop its production initially but the demand for it is rather high - both at home and abroad.

    And since they moved the Yak-130 production over to Sokol plant, that means they would have only 2 plane types to manufacture at the plant.

    Actually it is the opposite, Yak-130 production started at the Sokol plant in Nizhny Novgorod, but was later moved to irkutsk. Sokol plant should build mig35..


    Anyway, at the beginning I was going to reply seriously to the "ultimate warrior" user, but I believe now he is just behaving like a troll to create confusion and ruin the thread.
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    Post  jhelb on Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:14 pm

    Isos wrote:That's 9.5 su-57 per year. Being more complicated than a su-30 or su-35 it means full production all the 8 years. I wouldn't be surprised if the work for 1 su57 equals to the work for 2 or 3 su-30SM.

    One possible reason for low acceptance of the Su 57 is that Russian Air Force is not satisfied with its capabilities, especially its stealth capabilities.

    Furthermore, China will probably purchase the Su 57 only 4-5 years from now and India will purchase once they start phasing out their old Su 30s. So that's 10 years down the line. Other countries like Algeria, Egypt, Indonesia might purchase too but in smaller numbers. Therefore, less export means cost per unit remains high.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:27 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Isos wrote:That's 9.5 su-57 per year. Being more complicated than a su-30 or su-35 it means full production all the 8 years. I wouldn't be surprised if the work for 1 su57 equals to the work for 2 or 3 su-30SM.

    One possible reason for low acceptance of the Su 57 is that Russian Air Force is not satisfied with its capabilities, especially its stealth capabilities.

    Furthermore, China will probably purchase the Su 57 only 4-5 years from now and India will purchase once they start phasing out their old Su 30s. So that's 10 years down the line.  Other countries like Algeria, Egypt, Indonesia might purchase too but in smaller numbers. Therefore, less export means cost per unit remains high.

    Do you normally make shit up in your head and assume it is truth?

    Russian MoD said the device is perfect for their needs and does as intended in its design.

    You assume. And that makes an ass out of you.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:49 pm

    They ordered more than expected so it's the opposite.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:55 pm

    Isos wrote:They ordered more than expected so it's the opposite.

    Yeap.

    Boorisov (I know, its Borisov but that man was rather useless imo) was saying one thing until it came to light that MoD really liked it but he didn't and so it was forced to order more.
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    Post  jhelb on Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:43 pm

    Isos wrote:They ordered more than expected so it's the opposite.

    On the contrary RuAF are ordering more Su 35.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:50 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Isos wrote:They ordered more than expected so it's the opposite.

    On the contrary RuAF are ordering more Su 35.

    They were ordering su35 because of the delays in su-57 program. Now that it is ready they ordered 76 jets at once. They never ordered such number of anything at once. Not even tanks.

    There are no orders for su-35 since they anounced su-57 mass production.

    The low delivries in 2019 could also mean they kept money for su-57.
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:51 pm

    Isos wrote:
    jhelb wrote:
    Isos wrote:They ordered more than expected so it's the opposite.

    On the contrary RuAF are ordering more Su 35.

    They were ordering su35 because of the delays in su-57 program. Now that it is ready they ordered 76 jets at once. They never ordered such number of anything at once. Not even tanks.

    There are no orders for su-35 since they anounced su-57 mass production.

    The low delivries in 2019 could also mean they kept money for su-57.

    Su-27 is nearing the end of their airframes. So more Su-35 will definitely be needed to maintain current numbers.
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    Post  walle83 on Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:23 pm

    Russia should concentrate on the Su-57 and Su-34 to replace the Su-27/MiG-29 and Su-24 Completly.

    If the Su-57 isnt ready for massproduction I gess the Su-35 is the next best thing to continue ordering.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:13 pm

    walle83 wrote:Russia should concentrate on the Su-57 and Su-34 to replace the Su-27/MiG-29 and Su-24 Completly.

    If the Su-57 isnt ready for massproduction I gess the Su-35 is the next best thing to continue ordering.
    why should they replace them completely if the existing air frames have still life in them and they are fit to perform their task? They do not need to have 2000 Su57 or su35, they need to have a healthy amount of modern airplanes together also with some older but modernised airplane that are fit for the tasks set.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:34 am

    And don't forget China built a carrier with much less time it took Russia to build a frigate. Admit it, Russians are slow even if Russia has 10% the population of China.

    China has decided it has a need right now for aircraft carriers, that means nothing to Russia... why would it care about that?

    If China becomes belligerent and Russian needs to deal with them it would use Zircon and Kinzhal missiles and Kh-32s to eliminate Chinese ships... carriers would not be needed and would in fact be a liability.

    How many ICBMs does China have?

    Russia does not need to match anyone in terms of production... food production is vastly more important to Russia that production of military equipment... I would say Russia has reached a conventional power level where on one would want to fight them by choice... which is all they really need.

    Anything more is just pissing money away to the MIC.

    One possible reason for low acceptance of the Su 57 is that Russian Air Force is not satisfied with its capabilities, especially its stealth capabilities.

    Another possible reason is that they came up with 76 paint schemes and really could not decide so they are making 76 so they can test out all the different alternative paint schemes because that is the only way to be sure.

    Rather more seriously they are developing anti stealth technology and their new photonic radars might render stealth useless... so why blow the budget making thousands because the US says it is going to make thousands.

    You have to ask yourself regarding the F-35 and its proposed 3,500 aircraft production run... they were going to make hundreds of B-2s to replace all the B-1Bs and the B-52s but they cost too much to buy and to operate so they currently have about 19. The F-22 was going to replace all the F-15s they were going to make 1,500 of them... then it was cut to 750, and then just under 200 is what they actually made... because it was expensive and not 100% functional... it had problems too but they were kept secret better than the F-35s problems...

    Now we have F-35 in production even though it is no where near operational status... the Israelis should be destroying Russian air defence systems in Syrian use with ease... flying in to Syria and releasing lots of guided sophisticated weapons to take them all out without even being seen let alone tracked... how is that going?

    What Israel is going in Syria it could do with F-16s and F-15s for a fraction of the price an F-35 doesn't do it for... but both the F-16 and F-15 have better range and more weapons and heavier weapons load capacities with better dogfight performance at a tiny fraction of the cost of an F-35...

    With this sort of evidence you are whining that the Russians haven't ordered 10,000 Su-57s and ten CVNs... dude that is probably why the Americans keep harping on about 3,500 F-35s because they want Russia to produce a lot of expensive planes that need expensive maintenance for a very limited niche role in any combat scenario... looks to me like the only one that fell in to the trap of over spending was NATO.... which is hilarious... Trump will find his NATO allies will be spending 4% of their GDP on defence just to keep their F-35s flying, but the terrible business model used to build the F-35 means it is expensive because it is inefficient so the profit margin is actually not that big... what with all the fixes and patches and rebuilds that will be needed I suspect they wont be making very much profit on these planes... especially when numbers are cut to 1,500 and then maybe 500... and the damn things still are not any use over older models.

    Furthermore, China will probably purchase the Su 57 only 4-5 years from now and India will purchase once they start phasing out their old Su 30s. So that's 10 years down the line. Other countries like Algeria, Egypt, Indonesia might purchase too but in smaller numbers. Therefore, less export means cost per unit remains high.

    Russia has paid for development... they don't need India to buy them to complete the aircraft, and I suspect China will want to buy the export version as soon as it can because its technology is aging... buy it now and they learn now... wait 5 years and the export model might still be the one offered today but either way the Russian one will be rather different inside anyway. Hell the Chinese might open up a joint venture... a Su-57MKK where they want better stealth for use against Japan and South Korea and the US... if they pay for it I am sure the Russians will worth with them on it... anything they develop and learn can be applied to their Su-57M where appropriate.

    To be clear they could have made the Su-57 $200 million dollars per aircraft and made it much more stealthy than any US aircraft, but it would be much less capable in other areas and very expensive to operate, so they made the design choice to have less emphasis on stealth and more emphasis on manouver performance and armament etc etc... and affordability... meaning their customers could operate much larger fleets of these aircraft to make them more effective against NATO or the US than if they could only afford a few.

    On the contrary RuAF are ordering more Su 35.

    Wrong... the Russians have never said they will go to an all stealth fighter fleet... that is the Americans who stealthified (ie made much more expensive and less capable) their F-18 subpar whore net, and destroyed all tooling to make previous generation aircraft easily and cheaply and decided to concentrate on an all F-22 fleet and when that became obviously too expensive they went to an all F-35 fleet which is even more expensive... wonder how that is going to turn out for them... anyone want to guess how long it will take to reopen F-16 or F-15 production factories?

    Russia doesn't have that problem they are producing MiG-35s and Su-35s and Su-34s and Su-30s... keeping in mind that the MiG-35 is both land based and carrier capable, why not make a few stealth fighters and stealth drones to operate with them... that effectively doubles their performance and effective numbers... especially when considering they might allocate half a dozen S-70 drones per Su-57... they are basically autonomous and act like wingmen...

    If the Su-57 isnt ready for massproduction I gess the Su-35 is the next best thing to continue ordering.

    For many roles the Su-57 is total overkill, the Su-35 is the ideal choice for a range of roles and missions, and the MiG-35 is also a specific tool for specific jobs... where stealth is irrelevant a MiG-35 would be a much cheaper option than any bigger aircraft...

    Having a mix of all three actually makes it much more flexible...

    They also make conventional submarines SSGs and SSKs, for many of the same reasons... sometimes smaller cheaper options make more sense and add volume to the available numbers without blowing the budget... Russia can't just print more money like the US can.
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    Post  walle83 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:13 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    walle83 wrote:Russia should concentrate on the Su-57 and Su-34 to replace the Su-27/MiG-29 and Su-24 Completly.

    If the Su-57 isnt ready for massproduction I gess the Su-35 is the next best thing to continue ordering.
    why should they replace them completely if the existing air frames have still life in them and they are fit to perform their task? They do not need to have 2000 Su57 or su35, they need to have a healthy amount of modern airplanes together also with some older but modernised airplane that are fit for the tasks set.

    Sooner or later they will have to replace them all, and it will take some years to complete that. By then all the frames will be out of life.

    No they dont need 2000 aircrafts, but they need more then 120 Su-34 and 76 Su-57 thats for sure.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:22 pm

    walle83 wrote:Russia should concentrate on the Su-57 and Su-34 to replace the Su-27/MiG-29 and Su-24 Completly.

    If the Su-57 isnt ready for massproduction I gess the Su-35 is the next best thing to continue ordering.

    What the??
    Why is the Mig-29 on the list?
    Granted some squadrons need get upgraded, but the aircraft itself is perfectly fine once uptodate, the only real problem with the Migs is the overpriced Mig-35 model.
    Other than that, there's no real issue.
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    Post  walle83 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:35 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    walle83 wrote:Russia should concentrate on the Su-57 and Su-34 to replace the Su-27/MiG-29 and Su-24 Completly.

    If the Su-57 isnt ready for massproduction I gess the Su-35 is the next best thing to continue ordering.

    What the??
    Why is the Mig-29 on the list?
    Granted some squadrons need get upgraded, but the aircraft itself is perfectly fine once uptodate, the only real problem with the Migs is the overpriced Mig-35 model.
    Other than that, there's no real issue.

    The MiG-29 is the same generation as the Su-27 so why should it not be on the list? Su-57 was developt to replace both of them.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:52 pm

    walle83 wrote:The MiG-29 is the same generation as the Su-27 so why should it not be on the list? Su-57 was developt to replace both of them.

    The Su-27 was improved to the Su-30 to Su-35.
    The Mig-29 went through a similar process, difference is there wasn't much of a name change, with the exception of the Mig-35.
    So putting Mig-29 on this list doesn't make sense, unless you are referring to pre-Mig-29M models.
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    Post  walle83 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:55 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    walle83 wrote:The MiG-29 is the same generation as the Su-27 so why should it not be on the list? Su-57 was developt to replace both of them.

    The Su-27 was improved to the Su-30 to Su-35.
    The Mig-29 went through a similar process, difference is there wasn't much of a name change, with the exception of the Mig-35.
    So putting Mig-29 on this list doesn't make sense, unless you are referring to pre-Mig-29M models.

    MiG-29 isnt a fifth generation aircraft and, improved or not, as like all fighters it will have to be replaced sooner or later. The american F-16 has been updated several times but is being replaced by the F-35 now anyway.
    Im not saying all MiGs should be scrapped right a way, but in the next 10-15 years they have to be replaced. And if Russia is going to keep up with new frames they really need to keep the orders coming.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:57 pm

    They will more likely invest in 200 launchers for ballistic missiles with a range of 2000km rather than doing anything  with the mig-29. They almost have none in service. It's a fighter of the past for russia.

    Mig 35 is good but they are ordering sukhois. There were talks about a 5th gen fighter developed for UAE which could be more interesting for Russia. Who knows what they are doing with this project.
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    Post  Azi on Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:36 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    walle83 wrote:Russia should concentrate on the Su-57 and Su-34 to replace the Su-27/MiG-29 and Su-24 Completly.

    If the Su-57 isnt ready for massproduction I gess the Su-35 is the next best thing to continue ordering.

    What the??
    Why is the Mig-29 on the list?
    Granted some squadrons need get upgraded, but the aircraft itself is perfectly fine once uptodate, the only real problem with the Migs is the overpriced Mig-35 model.
    Other than that, there's no real issue.

    The MiG-29 is the same generation as the Su-27 so why should it not be on the list? Su-57 was developt to replace both of them.
    Not both! Only the Su-27 series. And "replace" is maybe the wrong word, because Su-57, Su-35 and Su-30 will coexist for a long time. The Su-57 is the successor of the Su-27 series...better said.

    Mig-29 was planned as a light fighter, in all aspects superior to F-16...inferior to Su-27, but good enough to make the same job as Su-27 in most aspects. The same job, because of the near deployment to frontline. I doubt that a 5. gen successor to Mig-29 will follow, best concept of a 5. gen Mig-29 successor would be Mig-LMFS...but project is dead for now, or not public. And Yak is working for a 5. gen. VTOL fighter, a rival design...okay for Navy, but maybe RuAF too. So nobody knows!

    Yes @Isos...they announced something, but the progress for this joint fighter is cloaked in shadows for now. dunno
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:54 pm

    There is also the Su-27SM3, that is quite modern as well, even if not at the level of the Su-35
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:29 am

    Sooner or later they will have to replace them all, and it will take some years to complete that. By then all the frames will be out of life.

    Of course sooner or later all aircraft will need to be replaced but the MiG-35 and the Su-35 and the Su-34 and the MiG-31 and the Su-57 are all current in service aircraft as good as anything in service anywhere else in the world... the MiG-31 will likely be replaced first but all can continue operational service for decades to come... their likely replacements could be unmanned...

    but they need more then 120 Su-34 and 76 Su-57 thats for sure.

    I would agree, but I don't think they would need more than about 300 Su-34s and about 250 Su-57s, because they will likely also have Su-35s and Su-30s and MiG-35s which... after new upgrades for the Su-34 will all be fully multi role aircraft with further support from Tu-22M3M in the long range strike role as well as MiG-31 and MiG-41 in the high speed interceptor role... Russian airspace should be pretty secure...

    the only real problem with the Migs is the overpriced Mig-35 model.
    Other than that, there's no real issue.

    That is only because the new technology that makes it better is not cheap and not in large scale production... expansion of fleet numbers should solve those problems...


    The MiG-29 is the same generation as the Su-27 so why should it not be on the list? Su-57 was developt to replace both of them.

    No it wasn't.

    The Su-57 was designed to counter western stealth fighters like the F-22 and F-35... there was never an intention to make the Russian AF an all Su-57 fleet.

    There was talk of a light 5th gen fighter to be started once the Su-57 was in serial production but there is no guarantee of that going forward... especially if these new radar types render existing stealth ineffectual.

    Look at the F-35... the only thing it has going for it is stealth... in all other parameters it is inferior to the F-15 and F-16... and any new electronics advantage it might have could easily be removed by fitting F-35 systems to those older aircraft.

    The facts are that the F-35 is not stealthy enough to operate in an environment where S-400 is present so effectively it is inferior to previous gen types to be invisible and it is not invisible at all... so the design compromises are pointless... put one of its engines into an F-16 airframe and radar and other electronics and get a much more useful aircraft that is much cheaper to operate.

    MiG-29 isnt a fifth generation aircraft and, improved or not, as like all fighters it will have to be replaced sooner or later. The american F-16 has been updated several times but is being replaced by the F-35 now anyway.
    Im not saying all MiGs should be scrapped right a way, but in the next 10-15 years they have to be replaced. And if Russia is going to keep up with new frames they really need to keep the orders coming.

    Yeah, the problem there is that if the F-35 is not stealthy in the presence of Russian air defence radars then its advantages as a fifth gen fighter disappear and it becomes a very very expensive to buy and to operate 4++ fighter... the MiG-35 is no where near as expensive as the F-35 and offers much better value for money.

    I would suggest in the 2030s that MiG-35s and Su-35s and Su-57s and Su-34s and MiG-41s will have drones operating with them as force multipliers rather than having new generation stealthy manned fighters being developed to replace them.

    Mig 35 is good but they are ordering sukhois. There were talks about a 5th gen fighter developed for UAE which could be more interesting for Russia. Who knows what they are doing with this project.

    There is a role for smaller lighter but almost 5th gen fighter level avionics fighters so the MiG-35 will be part of the Russian Air Force of the future... any new 5th gen light fighter will probably be a stealthy MiG-35 with further upgrades to electronics and sensors...

    The Su-57 is the successor of the Su-27 series...better said.

    I dont agree... I think the Su-57 will have its own roles and missions like the Su-34 and the MiG-31 and will not really replace anything but be used together with other types like S-70 drones for example.

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    Post  walle83 on Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:


    The MiG-29 is the same generation as the Su-27 so why should it not be on the list? Su-57 was developt to replace both of them.

    No it wasn't.

    The Su-57 was designed to counter western stealth fighters like the F-22 and F-35... there was never an intention to make the Russian AF an all Su-57 fleet.

    There was talk of a light 5th gen fighter to be started once the Su-57 was in serial production but there is no guarantee of that going forward... especially if these new radar types render existing stealth ineffectual.

    Look at the F-35... the only thing it has going for it is stealth... in all other parameters it is inferior to the F-15 and F-16... and any new electronics advantage it might have could easily be removed by fitting F-35 systems to those older aircraft.

    The facts are that the F-35 is not stealthy enough to operate in an environment where S-400 is present so effectively it is inferior to previous gen types to be invisible and it is not invisible at all... so the design compromises are pointless... put one of its engines into an F-16 airframe and radar and other electronics and get a much more useful aircraft that is much cheaper to operate.


    When the MiG-1.44 was cancelled and Sukhoi won the contract for the fifth generation aircraft the PAK-FA was presented as a replacement for both the Su-27 and the MiG-29. Remember that the aircraft was supose to be orderd in numbers of 200-250 aircraft in the beginning.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:30 pm


    The facts are that the F-35 is not stealthy enough to operate in an environment where S-400 is present so effectively it is inferior to previous gen types to be invisible and it is not invisible at all... so the design compromises are pointless... put one of its engines into an F-16 airframe and radar and other electronics and get a much more useful aircraft that is much cheaper to operate.

    F35 is stealth for engagement radars which gives it a big advantage. S400 can detect it far away but the real question is at what range can it engage the f-35 ?

    Russia has the advantage of using a huge IADS but many countries will operate only few s-400 with other european made SAM degrading overall perf against a 5th geberation aircraft.

    Even russia doesn't have that many s-400 when they are spread in all russia.
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    Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans - Page 26 Empty Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  Arrow on Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:43 pm

    Even russia doesn't have that many s-400 when they are spread in all russia. wrote:

    So many places in Russia are defended by only one or two S-400 battalions. The Russian IADS system is powerful considering many places at once. And only Moscow and St. Petersburg have strong protection, many S-400 battalions.

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    Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans - Page 26 Empty Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

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