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    Su-35S: News

    medo
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    Post  medo on Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:46 pm

    Maybe they already prepared new contracts and reserve production lines, only wait to be officially signed at MAKS aeroshow.
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    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:50 am

    Something I noticed now looking at Su-35 pictures, is that its canopy seem to be less transparent than previous versions (Su-27, Su-30SM). Does it have a RAM coating?
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    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:37 am

    Svyatoslavich wrote:Something I noticed now looking at Su-35 pictures, is that its canopy seem to be less transparent than previous versions (Su-27, Su-30SM). Does it have a RAM coating?

    apparently Su-35's were built with some form of RAM to them, as Su-35's are apparently less visible on radar than the older Su-27's. How much applied and more details I do not know, sorry.
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    Post  medo on Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:51 am

    True, Su-35 use RAM to have smaller RCS. There are rumors Su-35 have 1 m2 RCS or even less.
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    Post  collegeboy16 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:29 am

    Svyatoslavich wrote:Something I noticed now looking at Su-35 pictures, is that its canopy seem to be less transparent than previous versions (Su-27, Su-30SM). Does it have a RAM coating?
    is the presence of a somewhat golden tint the reason for it being less transparent? if so then the cause is the gold tint. afaik very, very thin layer of gold is applied to the canopy to absorb radiowaves and transform them into small amount of heat.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:52 pm

    Often a gold coating will be applied to cockpit canopies to trap radar waves and convert them into heat.

    This dramatically reduces radar signature because it reduces the radar return from objects inside the cockpit... the radar wave is reduced going in and coming out...

    It slightly reduces visibility, but it is generally worth it.

    You can also run an electric current through it to de ice and demist the canopy...
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    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:22 am

    Su-35S with 3 KAB-1500L, two air-to-air missiles R-73 and six bombs FAB-500M62 caliber 500 kg.

    Su-35S: News - Page 13 2239075_original
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    Post  nemrod on Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:05 am

    Give me all F-22, F-35, Typhoon, Rafale you want but the SU-35 is still among the best of the world



    The SU-35 was built from SU-37.


    PS-I did not find a topic concerning SU-37.
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    Post  George1 on Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:21 am

    The first 2 Su-35s in 2015
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    Post  franco on Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:32 am

    Nice photos of the manufacture process;
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1398432.html
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    Post  Guest on Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:06 pm

    How big will the next suspected order at MAKS will be? Another 48 birds?
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    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:22 am

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:How big will the next suspected order at MAKS will be? Another 48 birds?

    I think yes, from what we read
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:51 am

    The SU-35 was built from SU-37.


    PS-I did not find a topic concerning SU-37

    Su-37 was a technology demonstrator and was pretty much just about thrust vector engines.

    The Su-35 is a full upgrade in the 21st Century of the Su-27... just like the Su-27M was an upgrade of the Su-27 in the 1980s.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:33 am

    Su-35 and Su-37 are siblings, both belong to the Su-27M branch. Su-37 has more powerful engine, while Su-35 is more modest and is the first to enter service. It is unknown whether Su-37 will be revived or not.

    The family of Su-27 has four branches. The first one is "original" Su-27 and the successors of Su-27SKM/SMxx. They have small radars, but very fast speed and was designed to gain the upper hand in air fights.

    The second one is Su-27PU miniawacs, which evolved into Su-30xx. Su-30 has 2 sears instead of 1, has much bigger and more powerful radar and full ECM system, but it is much slower (M2<<M2.35). Compared to Su-27, Su-30 is weaker in air fight but better in ground attacks and training. Russia dislikes this version because of its weaker air to air combat, but foreign customers like India, China, Vietnam,... pay greater favor to Su-30 due to its multirole and training capability. Recently, Russia rebuilt a considerable numbers of Su-30 in order to fulfill the role of Su-24 which is going to be retired in near future.

    The third one is Su-27IB, the "platypus" nose which evolved into Su-34. It is slow (M1.8 ) and has weakest air fight capability, is mainly used for ground and naval attack. Like Su-30, Russia planed to use Su-34 as the successor of soon-to-be-retired Su-24.

    The fourth one is Su-27M, this is the mightiest and most advanced member of the Su-27 family. Su-27M is designed to be fast and powerful in air fight like Su-27 original, but has very big radar similar to Su-30. Su-27M evolved into Su-37 terminator and Su-35 super flanker. Su-37 has powerful engine, but the more modest Su-35 is the first one to enter service.
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    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:04 am

    higurashihougi wrote:Su-35 and Su-37 are siblings, both belong to the Su-27M branch. Su-37 has more powerful engine, while Su-35 is more modest and is the first to enter service. It is unknown whether Su-37 will be revived or not.

    The family of Su-27 has four branches. The first one is "original" Su-27 and the successors of Su-27SKM/SMxx. They have small radars, but very fast speed and was designed to gain the upper hand in air fights.

    The second one is Su-27PU miniawacs, which evolved into Su-30xx. Su-30 has 2 sears instead of 1, has much bigger and more powerful radar and full ECM system, but it is much slower (M2<<M2.35). Compared to Su-27, Su-30 is weaker in air fight but better in ground attacks and training. Russia dislikes this version because of its weaker air to air combat, but foreign customers like India, China, Vietnam,... pay greater favor to Su-30 due to its multirole and training capability. Recently, Russia rebuilt a considerable numbers of Su-30 in order to fulfill the role of Su-24 which is going to be retired in near future.

    The third one is Su-27IB, the "platypus" nose which evolved into Su-34. It is slow (M1.8 ) and has weakest air fight capability, is mainly used for ground and naval attack. Like Su-30, Russia planed to use Su-34 as the successor of soon-to-be-retired Su-24.

    The fourth one is Su-27M, this is the mightiest and most advanced member of the Su-27 family. Su-27M is designed to be fast and powerful in air fight like Su-27 original, but has very big radar similar to Su-30. Su-27M evolved into Su-37 terminator and Su-35 super flanker. Su-37 has powerful engine, but the more modest Su-35 is the first one to enter service.

    More or less correct
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:39 am

    I think this chart shows it best... the Su-27M was the Su-35 of the 80s and 90s but was never operational and never more than a technology demonstrator and the Su-37 was not an operational aircraft either... the best comparison I could make would be that the Su-37 is the MiG-29OVT of Flankers... ie a testbed for thrust vector engine nozzles mounted on the newest version of the time which never entered production or service.

    The aircraft we know now as Su-35 is totally different from the Su-27M.

    Su-35S: News - Page 13 73e5f410

    The first one is "original" Su-27 and the successors of Su-27SKM/SMxx. They have small radars, but very fast speed and was designed to gain the upper hand in air fights.

    There are no Flankers with small radars... only the two seat MiG-29 has a small ranging only radar... the two seater flankers have fully functioning full sized radars the same as the single seat model.

    Older radars had lower performance but were not smaller.

    The two seat Su-27UB model was developed into interceptor and strike versions and eventually became multirole aircraft... the Su-30s for the PVO were intended to be used as mini AWACS aircraft in extreme areas where there was no ground radar coverage.
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    Post  Berkut on Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:36 pm

    It was suggested that the next order for Su-35S will be slightly larger, probably to offset some of the frames that won't really be operational. (ie some of the first ones that are in Akhtubinsk) We will see.

    And instead of writing messy and confusing posts lets just stick to call it Su-35S. That is what it is called officially. That will remove the confusion vs the soviet Su-35/Su-27M. And there is no reason and logic behind reviving Su-37, so will obviously not be revived.
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    Post  Guest on Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:51 pm

    Berkut wrote:It was suggested that the next order for Su-35S will be slightly larger, probably to offset some of the frames that won't really be operational. (ie some of the first ones that are in Akhtubinsk) We will see.

    And instead of writing messy and confusing posts lets just stick to call it Su-35S. That is what it is called officially. That will remove the confusion vs the soviet Su-35/Su-27M. And there is no reason and logic behind reviving Su-37, so will obviously not be revived.
    So how many operational airframes will the VVS have in total after the second order is fulfilled?

    I was under the impression that when Sukhoi made the Su-35BM, they chose to call that because of marketing. It incorporated many features from the technology demonstrater Su-37 as well. The Su-35BM that was selected by the VVS was designated as the Su-35S and here we are now.
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    Post  franco on Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:11 pm

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    Berkut wrote:It was suggested that the next order for Su-35S will be slightly larger, probably to offset some of the frames that won't really be operational. (ie some of the first ones that are in Akhtubinsk) We will see.

    And instead of writing messy and confusing posts lets just stick to call it Su-35S. That is what it is called officially. That will remove the confusion vs the soviet Su-35/Su-27M. And there is no reason and logic behind reviving Su-37, so will obviously not be revived.
    So how many operational airframes will the VVS have in total after the second order is fulfilled?

    I was under the impression that when Sukhoi made the Su-35BM, they chose to call that because of marketing. It incorporated many features from the technology demonstrater Su-37 as well. The Su-35BM that was selected by the VVS was designated as the Su-35S and here we are now.


    We are all eagerly wait to find that figure out, as the last of the first order will be delivered this year.
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    Post  Berkut on Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:27 am

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    So how many operational airframes will the VVS have in total after the second order is fulfilled?

    I was under the impression that when Sukhoi made the Su-35BM, they chose to call that because of marketing. It incorporated many features from the technology demonstrater Su-37 as well. The Su-35BM that was selected by the VVS was designated as the Su-35S and here we are now.

    Well, technically the Akhtubinsk frames are still under VVS ownership. It is just that they are not particularly operational for a load of reasons. So when the production of the first order ends this year, they will have 48 frames at hand, just not 48 that are able to do patrols etc. Re Su-35BM designation;

    Very briefly, at the beginning of the development, to distinguish it from the old Su-35 (T10M) Su-35BM was used, but then again was just the Su-35. The reason is probably in the original export-oriented machine.

    So BM designation is useless and should be avoided. And what technology did Su-35S incorporate from Su-37? Su-37 is based on the original Su-35 (T-10M/Su-27M) and frame wise it is completely different. The only thing Su-35S (which is based on Su-27 frame) and Su-37 have in common is that both of them have TVC. With the small difference in it being very different TVC's.

    Su-37 has TVC that moves up and down, true 2D TVC while Su-35S has the same style as on Su-30MKI. And Su-30MKI TVC is rotated ~15 degrees like this;

    Su-35S: News - Page 13 E2e17aefa296

    So Su-35S and Su-37 share nothing in common really other than their heritage.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:09 am

    And instead of writing messy and confusing posts lets just stick to call it Su-35S. That is what it is called officially. That will remove the confusion vs the soviet Su-35/Su-27M. And there is no reason and logic behind reviving Su-37, so will obviously not be revived.

    I agree... Sukhoi has used and reused names all over the place... the Russian Air Force is more consistent...

    I would like to expand on what I was saying too... the original Su-27M was very much like the Mi-28 and many of the other new items of kit that were shown regularly at airshows during the late 1980s and 1990s but as they never entered service were really only prototypes or mockups for what they could be.

    If the money was there the Mi-28 and Ka-52 would not still be being developed now... it was the same with the Su-27M... it was not ready for operational service and the Su-37 that was developed from it was not really a combat ready aircraft... it had a side stick controller in addition to the central control stick and it had thrust vector engines and likely a good flight control system, but it was nothing compared with the current Su-35S... otherwise why would it take so long to get the Su-35S read for service... the facts are that the design was proposed and then when accepted they had to put it together and make it work... which can't be calculated before hand... you can only do it by actually doing it for real and dealing with the problems as they come up.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:35 am

    Berkut wrote:The only thing Su-35S (which is based on Su-27 frame) and Su-37 have in common is that both of them have TVC. With the small difference in it being very different TVC's.

    Su-37 has TVC that moves up and down, true 2D TVC while Su-35S has the same style as on Su-30MKI. And Su-30MKI TVC is rotated ~15 degrees like this;

    http://s015.radikal.ru/i333/1011/0b/e2e17aefa296.jpg

    So Su-35S and Su-37 share nothing in common really other than their heritage.

    Su-37 engine provide a slightly better thurst and as far as I know its TVC capability is similar to Su-30MKI.

    And the max speed of Su-37 is also slightly higher than Su-35S.
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    Post  Guest on Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:42 am

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Berkut wrote:The only thing Su-35S (which is based on Su-27 frame) and Su-37 have in common is that both of them have TVC. With the small difference in it being very different TVC's.

    Su-37 has TVC that moves up and down, true 2D TVC while Su-35S has the same style as on Su-30MKI. And Su-30MKI TVC is rotated ~15 degrees like this;

    http://s015.radikal.ru/i333/1011/0b/e2e17aefa296.jpg

    So Su-35S and Su-37 share nothing in common really other than their heritage.

    Su-37 engine provide a slightly better thurst and as far as I know its TVC capability is similar to Su-30MKI.

    And the max speed of Su-37 is also slightly higher than Su-35S.
    Checked on it and Berkut is right, the Su-37's TVC is 2D because it moves up and down only (like the F-22). The TVC on the Su-30MKI/SM is 15 degrees off of the vertical axis. Su-35S incorporates the same specifications in its TVC capabilities, but it uses a more advanced engine.

    All the improvements in the Su-35 do offset the higher thurst in the Su-37.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:18 am


    All the improvements in the Su-35 do offset the higher thurst in the Su-37.

    Most importantly, the Su-37 was not an operational aircraft... it was a testbed for thrust vectoring engine nozzles and for exploring new control options like a side stick controller. It was no where near an operational combat aircraft, as shown by the fact that when it had finished its testing it went to an air display team rather than an operational unit of the Russian air force.

    I would suggest that the Su-35S as entering service today is miles ahead of the Su-37 in every way including ability to manouver simply because everything the learned from then and since then has been incorporated into the Su-35S from the Su-37 and the work on the S-37 (ie the forward swept wing Berkut) and the PAK FA, and the Su-30MKI and Su-30MKK.
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    Post  Guest on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:41 am

    GarryB wrote:

    All the improvements in the Su-35 do offset the higher thurst in the Su-37.

    Most importantly, the Su-37 was not an operational aircraft... it was a testbed for thrust vectoring engine nozzles and for exploring new control options like a side stick controller. It was no where near an operational combat aircraft, as shown by the fact that when it had finished its testing it went to an air display team rather than an operational unit of the Russian air force.

    I would suggest that the Su-35S as entering service today is miles ahead of the Su-37 in every way including ability to manouver simply because everything the learned from then and since then has been incorporated into the Su-35S from the Su-37 and the work on the S-37 (ie the forward swept wing Berkut) and the PAK FA, and the Su-30MKI and Su-30MKK.
    Goes to show that the nickname that has been floating around for it, "The Last Flanker" is very fitting indeed. The final chapter in a story spanning a few decades and a number of technical innovations and designs. It really is the ultimate and likely last evolution of the still great Su-27.

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