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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #23

    JohninMK
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #23 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #23

    Post  JohninMK Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:07 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    Ispan wrote:for real or a fraud

    Real. I could go into a long rant about the attacks on him, particulary the poisonous shit posted in comments under the fortrus article by one particular devious lying shithead with an anti Novorossiya agenda.

    Unfortunately he lays himself open to attack at times because he is a bit abrasive and not afraid to give his honest opinion, and he has a high opinion of himself, which does not exactly endear him to many. These traits do not help him, but do not make him a lier or a loony either. He isn't perfect, but Strelkov is okay, and those who supported him in 2014 who now attack him should be seen as untrustworthy "fair weather friends" simply looking to cement their own positions and put all blaim for anything that went wrong on him. The only real issue, and it is not his fault, is that military events went beyond his capability and it was essential to have a general in charge. Strelkov could have beeen kept as a figurehead, but then he would get all the glory, and that would have been politically unacceptable with the other changes made, Boroday out and Zakharchenko in for instance.
    I only came late to the events, in August 2014 at MP.net but I remember being amazed at the ability of the 'locals' in holding back to UA. Strelkov seemed to be a big part of that, not necessarily with the limited resources he had directly available to him but as a leader and figurehead. Given the structure of the leadership cadres in Ukraine it is probably no surprise that he was treated the way he was. Upstarts are not allowed. May his God smile on him.
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    Post  Khepesh Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:34 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    I only came late to the events, in August 2014 at MP.net but I remember being amazed at the ability of the 'locals' in holding back to UA. Strelkov seemed to be a big part of that, not necessarily with the limited resources he had directly available to him but as a leader and figurehead. Given the structure of the leadership cadres in Ukraine it is probably no surprise that he was treated the way he was. Upstarts are not allowed. May his God smile on him.
    He held the line as best he could, which with some difficulties here and there he managed succesfully until it was time for the counter offensive and new command. I agree that he was no longer the man to actually command on the ground, but perhaps would have been better if he had stayed as a figure head at least until Minsk 1. If he had stayed then he could still have been shown, at least publicly, to be the commander and so stop some of the talk about "Northerners" etc. But with him gone it was not credible to suggest that Zakharchenko and Kononov were really commanding anything, but baby was chucked out with bathwater as saying goes. Too clumsy. Some of the difficulty in discussing this is caused by a desire not to say what everybody knows, so there are obfuscations and evasions, counting angels on head of a pin and all sorts of other nonsense. This plays into hands of enemies and gives them ammunition to play games in media and online in various forums etc, and always wanting certain admissions. IMO it is all stupid idiot games and truth should be told, but silence or nonsense until after it's over.....

    One point about who was fighting at the beginning and why Rebels did not collapse, as they should perhaps may have been expected to do given that apart from small element of UA 25 Brigade, there was not a mutiny within UA and entire major units changing side. Look at the old videos and you see many of the rebels are not young men, they are older, many Afgantsy with combat experience and not too old yet to fight again. Even with younger guys like Givi, while only having been a tank driver in UA, he was trained, and that is an advantage. UA was an army of young men with no combat experience, many still undergoing training, and with no reason to fight other than obeying orders, except the radikals. With such an army, which was crap anyway, determined and combat hardened, or at least already trained men, men defending their homes, will beat badly led and untrained or not fully trained rabble as most of UA were. Of course some "funny stuff" happened here and there, like the airport, but it should not really be a surprise that Rebels did not collapse. The picture I paint here is for the very early days, but crucial days before a flood of volunteers or any "Northwind", and what is wind, simply air, it's all a delirium concocted in the minds of the mad, nothing, vapor, a phantasm, a dream for some, a nightmare for others.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #23 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #23

    Post  JohninMK Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:29 pm

    Class move in Holland. Ukraine in EU message on toilet paper, says it all really.

    A private company has come up with an unorthodox way of warning Dutch voters about the risks and possible negative consequences of the Ukraine-EU association agreement.

    The company, Raspoetin BV, intends to spend about 50,000 euros provided by the government on manufacturing and distributing rolls of toilet paper printed with arguments against the treaty.

    The owner of the enterprise, Ruben Marsman, told local broadcaster NOS that he's merely a concerned citizen who wishes to make his voice heard. He also added that while most of the said toilet paper will be distributed at markets and similar outlets, some rolls will be sent to 'important institutions' as well.

    This initiative is not, in fact, privately funded as Raspoetin BV became one of the 72 entities to be awarded a subsidy by the commission in charge of the upcoming referendum. The company was issued a total of 47,973 euros for manufacturing, transportation and distribution of the toilet paper rolls printed with arguments against Ukraine’s accession to the EU.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160218/1034960421/netherlands-vote-toilet-paper.html#ixzz40WtVb9SK
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    Post  Khepesh Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:58 pm

    Possibility of some fighting at Marinka beyond what has become "normal". Ukrops saying that VSN forces are breaking Minsk and have deployed Grad batteries and tank companies into Petrovsky with intention of an assault on Marinka. Crap, but it could be that ukrops intend to assault into Petrovsky and are just throwing up smokescreen of disinformation, not of course aimed at us who know this is crap from them, but at usefull idiots of western media.

    I posted this because tho ukrops and Basurin are constantly saying there is a build up here or there by one side or the other, this is a little unusual as it is so specific, and that ukrops have been very busy at Marinka and Staromikhailovka for a while. Probably nothing, but...
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:18 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Possibility of some fighting at Marinka beyond what has become "normal". Ukrops saying that VSN forces are breaking Minsk and have deployed Grad batteries and tank companies into Petrovsky with intention of an assault on Marinka. Crap, but it could be that ukrops intend to assault into Petrovsky and are just throwing up smokescreen of disinformation, not of course aimed at us who know this is crap from them, but at usefull idiots of western media.

    I posted this because tho ukrops and Basurin are constantly saying there is a build up here or there by one side or the other, this is a little unusual as it is so specific, and that ukrops have been very busy at Marinka and Staromikhailovka for a while. Probably nothing, but...
    Not even certain that our useful idiots in the MSM give a shit anymore. But, wait till there is a Turkish strike, if that happens Ukrops will be in its shadow.
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:26 pm

    Ukraine announcing the court case. As I mentioned before, note that it is not the Russians in the English High Court, it is a long established (120 years) English company that is suing Ukraine.

    The Ukrainian Finance Ministry confirmed that The Law Debenture Trust Corporation Plc, acting as trustee on behalf of the Russian Federation, has formally commenced proceedings in the High Court in London against Ukraine over $3 billion in Eurobonds that matured in December 2015.

    "Ukraine intends and is completely ready to resolutely defend its own interests in these eurobonds in the British court," the ministry said in a statement.


    http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/325658.html

    EDIT

    More from London

    LONDON, February 18. /TASS/. The High Court of London registered Russia’s action against Ukraine filed because of $3 bln debt, the Court told TASS on Thursday.

    "The claim was filed in the Financial List [the disputes trial system — TASS] on the 17th February," a Court’s representative said. "Names of parties are: The Law Debenture Trust Corporation PLC versus Ukraine represented by the Minister of Finance of Ukraine acting upon the instructions of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine," the source added.

    "The Financial List is part of the Commercial Court," the court’s representative said. The Financial List established in July 2015 is a specialist list set up to handle claims related to the financial markets with the amount of claims over 50 mln pounds sterling ($71.8 mln). Cases assigned to the Financial List will be managed and heard by specialist judges so as to provide fast, efficient and high quality dispute resolution of claims.


    More: http://tass.ru/en/world/857688


    Last edited by JohninMK on Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Second item added)
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:57 pm

    Bit more on the RS plot.

    The Right Sector and UPA announced a march to Kiev after February 20th. This was stated in a joint press conference by one of the members with the callsign 'Sensey'.

    According to him, on the 20th of February they will begin the mobilization of nationalists, which will give time for the President to voluntarily resign, otherwise he will be threatened with punishment.

    "The time will come when we put the weapons into our hands, and we will come and say: "Poroshenko is a traitor, get out of here. You have three days". And then we'll take the assault rifles, submachine guns, RPGs and drive him out of there...

    The Right Sector and UPA announced a march to Kiev after February 20th. This was stated in a joint press conference by one of the members with the callsign 'Sensey'.

    According to him, on the 20th of February they will begin the mobilization of nationalists, which will give time for the President to voluntarily resign, otherwise he will be threatened with punishment.

    "The time will come when we put the weapons into our hands, and we will come and say: "Poroshenko is a traitor, get out of here. You have three days". And then we'll take the assault rifles, submachine guns, RPGs and drive him out of there...


    http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/02/right-sector-take-machine-guns-assault.html

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    Post  Ispan Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:05 pm

    I finished reading the interviews, a very different picture from the "hot air" of his latter speeches.

    As a political commentarist and as military analyst Strelkov is not good at all, but he does for sure seem the real deal regarding his service record. Still would like some confirmation from Russian archives.

    I also agree that the "Northwind" has been grossly exagerated, for some reason Cassad attributes successes to Russian troops and belittles the militia. If there were enough Russian troops and material in Donbass to turn the tide of events, we would have noticed. There would be casualties and destroyed vehicles. The rebels were doing fine without Russian aid, but once they got some, things got better, of course..

    I understand very well, from my knowledge of the Spanish Civil War, how small numbers of highly motivated men and with some sound military knowledge (the Nationalists) could stand up against vastly superior numbers of  ill-led, undisciplined militia (the Reds).

    To add to what Khepesh said, here is a good explanation

    http://www.fort-russ.com/2015/08/kungurov-war-ends-in-peremoga.html?m=1

    I have read some articles at slavyangrad and my impression is that everybody on the western side is completely detached from reality and the diplomats are at a loss to do. They fail to realize the conflict has already frozen, and that the partition of Ukraine is a fact. Donbass will never go back into Ukraine.

    I am still of the opinion that the way out of the stalemate is through the battefield.
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    Post  Khepesh Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:26 pm

    Residents of Petrovsky have been hearing sounds of fighting at Marinka, but this is nearly every day, however, added to what I wrote before, ukrops are saying louder that they will be attacked at Marinka, and by "Russian" troops, within 24 hours. It's games, but it becomes more interesting and seems they plan something.



    Edit: Unrelated, but there may be a change in command of "Vostok" soon. Heat on Khodakovsky seems to be increasing with him being described as a "Total zero" and Givi saying he cannot believe a word he ever says. Also the installation of Gubarev in Yasinovataya was a move that could be seen as against Khodakovsky, and of course the debacle at Marinka in January last year and at the airport at the beginning of the war are his responsibility.
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:06 pm

    BM-21 GRAD ‏@bm21_grad 3h3 hours ago

    Correction: Ukrainian soldiers (not separatists) who made this beauty

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #23 - Page 30 Cbg8QDrUEAEuJhH
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:24 am

    Ivan Katchanovski
    Facebook

    A policeman who shot dead a 17-year old passenger of a vehicle in Kyiv during its pursuit for a traffic violation is linked to the neo-Nazi led Azov regiment. The Prosecutor General Office says that the killing was intentional and they release this video of this shooting. The leadership of the police and the Ministry of the Internal Affairs justified this killing specifically by releasing false information about the incident and by not releasing this video.

    18 +



    "The Nation" article about the irony of the "Winter On Fire" video/documentary, & how it does not tell the facts about the Ultra-Nationalists and Neo-Nazis who were involved with overthrow of the President of Ukraine, also the involvement of the Obama Administration.
    Very good article

    http://www.thenation.com/article/the-heartbreaking-irony-of-winter-on-fire/
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    Post  higurashihougi Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:50 am

    https://www.rt.com/business/332862-crimea-flights-ukraine-russia/

    The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) is lifting restrictions on commercial flights over parts of Crimea, reports the Wall Street Journal. The airspace was off-limits for European carriers after the peninsula’s secession from Ukraine to join Russia in 2014.
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:26 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:https://www.rt.com/business/332862-crimea-flights-ukraine-russia/

    The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) is lifting restrictions on commercial flights over parts of Crimea, reports the Wall Street Journal. The airspace was off-limits for European carriers after the peninsula’s secession from Ukraine to join Russia in 2014.

    Putting EASA in their place

    KRASNOYARSK (Sputnik) – The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has nothing to do with air traffic services over the Black Sea, while the issue of commercial flights over airspace around Simferopol will be discussed at the ad hoc working group of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) in March 2016, the head of Russia’s civil aviation authority said Friday.

    On Wednesday, media reported that the EASA told airlines they can consider flying over Simferopol via two designated routes.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160219/1035012396/icao-flights-crimea.html#ixzz40c188lOf
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    Post  auslander Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:50 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:https://www.rt.com/business/332862-crimea-flights-ukraine-russia/

    The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) is lifting restrictions on commercial flights over parts of Crimea, reports the Wall Street Journal. The airspace was off-limits for European carriers after the peninsula’s secession from Ukraine to join Russia in 2014.

    Putting EASA in their place

    KRASNOYARSK (Sputnik) – The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has nothing to do with air traffic services over the Black Sea, while the issue of commercial flights over airspace around Simferopol will be discussed at the ad hoc working group of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) in March 2016, the head of Russia’s civil aviation authority said Friday.

    On Wednesday, media reported that the EASA told airlines they can consider flying over Simferopol via two designated routes.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160219/1035012396/icao-flights-crimea.html#ixzz40c188lOf

    They did and they also said that flights over Krim would be under orc air traffic control and the orcs said the flights would have to pay the usual transit fees to 404 for transit 'over their territory'.


    Last edited by auslander on Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Khepesh Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:58 pm

    Media finally catch up with what happens in DNR regarding Khodakovsky...
    Lenta reports that he is going into opposition against Zakharchenko and that he accuses Zakharchenko of "corruption". Also reported about what Givi said about Khodakovsky yesterday. The man who said he was a "total zero" and who I forgot to name on previous post was Ivan Kondratov, who had been commander of Republican Guard until the changes last year. And Khodakovsky is of course not commander of "Vostok" any more, he is head of DNR security council, old info sticks in the head at times....
    http://lenta.ru/news/2016/02/19/opposition/?t

    And no, the war has not restarted at Marinka yet, likely just games but I'm sure everybody will wake up when something happens.
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    Post  franco Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:30 pm

    So Kiev complaining that unknown drones are attacking it's warehouses and depots behind the lines with incendiary devices. Twisted Evil

    So the question of the day is does auslander have a new hobby when he is battling writers block? Suspect

    Smile
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    Post  auslander Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:31 am

    franco wrote:So Kiev complaining that unknown drones are attacking it's warehouses and depots behind the lines with incendiary devices.   Twisted Evil

    So the question of the day is does auslander have a new hobby when he is battling writers block?    Suspect

    Smile

    I am truly shocked that anyone would accuse me of such a dastardly deed, shocked I say! Here I sit with snow up to my little suntanned bellybutton and you have the absolute nerve to accuse me of such things while I am totally innocent of even harboring such thoughts. Ummm. Excuse me for a moment, someone seems to be nosing around my T 34 parked outside the gate. Dadgummed kindergarteners and their silly little land mines, always joking around.
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    Post  auslander Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:41 am

    Ain't no way I'm keeping that post count so up one we go.
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    Post  Guest Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:22 am



    Buzzing over Ukrainian ‘Debaltsevo cauldron’
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    Post  higurashihougi Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:53 am

    @Werewolf: So, finally, Maidan finally admitted they are Russians Cool Cool

    https://www.rt.com/news/333076-ukraine-wants-ban-russia/

    The Ukrainian parliament is to consider a bill, which would make calling Russia ‘Russia’ a criminal offense. The bill penned by a Radical Party MP says ‘Russia’ derives from Ukraine’s historic name and can’t be used by the Russian Federation.

    With the word ‘Russia’ inadmissible, the bill says ‘Moscovia’ should be used instead.

    According to the wording of the bill, the word “Rus” and its derivative “Russia” are “unofficial names of the territory of modern Ukraine” and “have historic significance for Ukraine.” It says banning the use of these words for modern Russia will “restore historic justice and protect the historic legacy of the Ukrainian people.”
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:56 am

    Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainians are all descendants of thr Rus' people.
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:52 am

    higurashihougi wrote:@Werewolf: So, finally, Maidan finally admitted they are Russians Cool Cool

    https://www.rt.com/news/333076-ukraine-wants-ban-russia/

    The Ukrainian parliament is to consider a bill, which would make calling Russia ‘Russia’ a criminal offense. The bill penned by a Radical Party MP says ‘Russia’ derives from Ukraine’s historic name and can’t be used by the Russian Federation.

    With the word ‘Russia’ inadmissible, the bill says ‘Moscovia’ should be used instead.

    According to the wording of the bill, the word “Rus” and its derivative “Russia” are “unofficial names of the territory of modern Ukraine” and “have historic significance for Ukraine.” It says banning the use of these words for modern Russia will “restore historic justice and protect the historic legacy of the Ukrainian people.”

    Did anyone notice what I noticed? "Ukrainians" (meaning "border region people") seem to have been attentively reading this forum. Twisted Evil

    By the way, guys, before it's too late, please go and look at the thread I started a while ago titled History: Fiction or Science?
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:15 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    Buzzing over Ukrainian ‘Debaltsevo cauldron’
    A lot of scrap metal down there.
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    Post  Vann7 Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:34 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainians are all descendants of thr Rus' people.

    Indeed.. but Ukraine and Belarus as countries ,were created just recently after the collapse of Soviet Union. They did not exist in Imperial Russia times or earlier. Soviets Bolcheviks when took power killing ROmanov family ,just like Ukraine is doing today ,began to destroy the past and rewrite their history and culture.  and then began to create Autonomies in the new bolshevik
    world. TO split Russia in regions with Autonomy with the capability to separate from Moscow.
    This have to be done as a tactic ,that if the Pro Romanov orthodox factions tried to overthrow them ,that Russia will be disbanded.. and so they did. a case of if Russia will not be ruled by bolshevicks then it will be disbanded by them. Stalin was against this idea of giving so much power to Ukraine republic and belarus. of spliting from Russia. Soviets it seems to me tried
    to change the center of power from moscow to Ukraine. Because so much generous transfer of lands cannot be by coincidence. Soviets Jews , not only created Ukraine and Belarus as autonomous republics.. but began to transfer lands from Moscow administration to kiev.
    Gave them Crimea ,and Donetsk and Lugansk too.


    All said Ukrainians and Belarusians are another faction of Russians ,and their language a dialect of Russian mixed with polish and baltic words. Same people who funded kiev funded moscow..
    Russians changed its capital many time , and Ukraine and Belarus are regions of Russia that split from moscow to create a new country. and largely have failed since depends a lot their business with Russia.

    and Ukraine in particular is rewriting totally their past ,to made it look ,they are the real Russians. and that the people is moscow are mongols mixed with muslins. All this things while
    look funny on the surface ,is not by joke they do it. They have a more darker and very long term motives of many decades ,generations terms. Is aimed at the new generations of Ukrainians ,at their children. To brainwash them into thinking that the territory of Russia is theirs in reality. and that moscovites too Russia away from them.  If Israel with the help of the west could reinvent its story and create an artificial state in middle east.. that Ukraine reinvent theirs story with the help of the west is nothing. But for all this to work , a major propaganda need to start in all Ukraine schools ,and Russia needs to lose control of all its territory
    the soviet union style again..and be disbanded and immersed in civil wars and unrest.

    with the internet and free information.. it will be really difficult for all this plan to work.
    They still can try. by banning any information on internet or media that counter it.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
    JohninMK
    JohninMK


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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #23 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #23

    Post  JohninMK Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:48 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainians are all descendants of thr Rus' people.

    Indeed.. but Ukraine and Belarus as countries ,were created just recently after the collapse of Soviet Union. They did not exist in Imperial Russia times or earlier. Soviets Bolcheviks when took power killing ROmanov family ,just like Ukraine is doing today ,began to destroy the past and rewrite their history and culture.  and then began to create Autonomies in the new bolshevik
    world. TO split Russia in regions with Autonomy with the capability to separate from Moscow.
    This have to be done as a tactic ,that if the Pro Romanov orthodox factions tried to overthrow them ,that Russia will be disbanded.. and so they did. a case of if Russia will not be ruled by bolshevicks then it will be disbanded by them. Stalin was against this idea of giving so much power to Ukraine republic and belarus. of spliting from Russia. Soviets it seems to me tried
    to change the center of power from moscow to Ukraine.

    All said Ukrainians and Belarusians are another faction of Russians ,and their language a dialect of Russian mixed with polish and baltic words. Same people who funded kiev funded moscow..
    Russians changed its capital many time , and Ukraine and Belarus are regions of Russia that split from moscow to create a new country. and largely have failed since depends a lot their business with Russia.
    Please can we call time on this? If you want to discuss it can you start another thread.

    I am sure the last thing any of us want is for this thread to go the way of the Ukraine thread on MP.net.

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