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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #23

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:43 am

    To annex something involves taking control of it... when the area of land and the people living on it vote to join you then it is not an annexation type situation it is actually a reunification.
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:05 am

    Reunification, guys.
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:36 pm

    Must be a reason for this.

    KIEV, December 31. /TASS/. Roadblocks barring passage from Ukraine to the Republic of Crimea are being removed after a decision by Kiev authorities to restrict commodities bound for the newly independent territory, a Ukrainian activist announced on Thursday.

    Observers remain stationed at the entry point to the Black Sea peninsula but are not impending through traffic, organizer Lenur Islyamov announced on Thursday. "We are removing all the roadblocks - six of them, two on each road," he told the 112 Ukraine TV channel. "Observers remain, but are not stopping anyone. "The government has eventually agreed with our demand for a commodity blockade and the decision it made, although half-hearted and vague, is by and large what we would like to see," he added, explaining the roadblocks' lifting.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/world/848067
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:49 pm

    Strange event this one. Although the electricity supply contract ended on the 31st it seems that this was more than just throwing a switch to disconnect Crimea. In the second item Aksyonov says a pylon came down. Meantime Putin steps in saying that the contract extension is up to the locals, do they want to put up with the problems of no contract and supply from Ukraine until Russian power comes in full in May.

    KIEV, December 31. /TASS/. Ukraine has established a special commission that will probe into the causes of a recent emergency at the Kakhovka-Titan power transmission line that supplies electricity to Crimea, the press service of the Kherson regional state administration of Ukraine reported on Thursday. "A special commission, which investigates the causes of damage to the Kakhovka-Titan power transmission line was established on December 31," the report says. The commission includes representatives of law enforcement agencies and experts of the power utility Ukrenergo and regional power companies.

    The press service also said two districts in Ukraine’s Kherson region were temporarily connected to the backup power supply due to the accident. "As a result of the 220 kV Kakhovka-Titan power transmission line disconnection, the Kalanchaksky and Chaplinskiy districts of the Kherson region, which are fed from this line were temporarily connected to backup power supply", the Kherson regional state administration reported.

    On the night to December 31, electric power supply of the Republic of Crimea from Ukraine through the only working power transmission line was again disrupted. "The power flow is zero now. We have not received any warning, that's all I can tell," Crimean Minister of Fuel and Energy Svetlana Borodulina said. According to her, this incident will not entail serious consequences for the residents of Crimea. She did not specify the electricity volume that had been supplied from Ukraine. According to official data, the energy flow did not exceed 150 MW, which is about 10% of the peninsula’s demand.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/politics/848073

    SIMFEROPOL, December 31. /TASS/. Head of Crimea Sergey Aksyonov has called the termination of power supplies from Ukraine to the peninsula on the night to December 31 a "terrorist act". Read also Electricity supply from Ukraine to Crimea stopped because of tower collapse — supplier "Today a terrorist act has been committed, one of the supports has been undermined or tumbled down. The media already reported that Energy Minister Novak said that Ukraine wants to bring into the contract a clause stating that Crimea is the Ukrainian territory. My stance is clear. They can get out of here with such suggestions. I consider it unacceptable to be on the hook of blackmailers and terrorists who lie to people saying that Crimea will return to Ukraine. This will never happen. We want to intimidate us, to force them to love them. They won’t get it,"- Aksenov told reporters. "The fact that one of the supports has been tumbled down. How they did it - I do not know - sawed it with a jigsaw or blew it up, I do not know. Everyone has his own views on such attacks," - Aksenov said. "Russia used to go through stronger difficulties. Crimean residents had a good experience. I personally believe that all services will fulfill the task of the president and by May 1, Crimea will receive required electricity in full volume," - the head of Crimea said.
    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/politics/848103

    MOSCOW, December 31. /TASS/. Russia’s President Vladimir Putin has instructed the authorities of Crimea and Sevastopol to hold an opinion poll among the population before signing a contract for electricity supplies to the peninsula with Ukraine, Russia’s Energy Minister Alexander Novak told reporters on Thursday. "The president has ordered to turn urgently to one of the leading professional agencies to hold an opinion poll among the population of the Crimea and Sevastopol on the following questions. The first question: do you support the conclusion of a commercial contract with Ukraine for the supply of the electricity to Crimea and Sevastopol, if it is stated that Crimea and Sevastopol are part of Ukraine, or you don’t?" the minister said. He added that this was the wording Ukraine wanted to include in the contract and Russia does not agree with it. "The second question is: Are you ready to temporary difficulties associated with minor disruptions of energy supply in the next 3-4 months?" the minister said. According to him, the president considers it appropriate to conduct a survey before making a final decision on signing or not signing a contract.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/economy/848089
    higurashihougi
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #23 - Page 13 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #23

    Post  higurashihougi Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:06 pm

    Happy New Year Ukraina, if things continue like this you are going to be the biggest brothel in Europe.

    Basically Ukraina just permited the broadcasting of three pornographic channels: Playboy TV, Erox HD and Erotica TV. The broadcasting time is 0:00 to 4:00.

    Broadcasting pornographic channel was banned under the "dictactorship" of Yakunovych. Now with "democracy" they allows it again.

    https://eadaily.com/news/2015/12/30/rossiyskie-telekanaly-na-ukraine-zamenili-evropeyskimi-eroticheskimi
    franco
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    Post  franco Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:11 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Strange event this one. Although the electricity supply contract ended on the 31st it seems that this was more than just throwing a switch to disconnect Crimea. In the second item Aksyonov says a pylon came down. Meantime Putin steps in saying that the contract extension is up to the locals, do they want to put up with the problems of no contract and supply from Ukraine until Russian power comes in full in May.

    KIEV, December 31. /TASS/. Ukraine has established a special commission that will probe into the causes of a recent emergency at the Kakhovka-Titan power transmission line that supplies electricity to Crimea, the press service of the Kherson regional state administration of Ukraine reported on Thursday. "A special commission, which investigates the causes of damage to the Kakhovka-Titan power transmission line was established on December 31," the report says. The commission includes representatives of law enforcement agencies and experts of the power utility Ukrenergo and regional power companies.

    The press service also said two districts in Ukraine’s Kherson region were temporarily connected to the backup power supply due to the accident. "As a result of the 220 kV Kakhovka-Titan power transmission line disconnection, the Kalanchaksky and Chaplinskiy districts of the Kherson region, which are fed from this line were temporarily connected to backup power supply", the Kherson regional state administration reported.

    On the night to December 31, electric power supply of the Republic of Crimea from Ukraine through the only working power transmission line was again disrupted. "The power flow is zero now. We have not received any warning, that's all I can tell," Crimean Minister of Fuel and Energy Svetlana Borodulina said. According to her, this incident will not entail serious consequences for the residents of Crimea. She did not specify the electricity volume that had been supplied from Ukraine. According to official data, the energy flow did not exceed 150 MW, which is about 10% of the peninsula’s demand.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/politics/848073

    SIMFEROPOL, December 31. /TASS/. Head of Crimea Sergey Aksyonov has called the termination of power supplies from Ukraine to the peninsula on the night to December 31 a "terrorist act". Read also Electricity supply from Ukraine to Crimea stopped because of tower collapse — supplier "Today a terrorist act has been committed, one of the supports has been undermined or tumbled down. The media already reported that Energy Minister Novak said that Ukraine wants to bring into the contract a clause stating that Crimea is the Ukrainian territory. My stance is clear. They can get out of here with such suggestions. I consider it unacceptable to be on the hook of blackmailers and terrorists who lie to people saying that Crimea will return to Ukraine. This will never happen. We want to intimidate us, to force them to love them. They won’t get it,"- Aksenov told reporters. "The fact that one of the supports has been tumbled down. How they did it - I do not know - sawed it with a jigsaw or blew it up, I do not know. Everyone has his own views on such attacks," - Aksenov said. "Russia used to go through stronger difficulties. Crimean residents had a good experience. I personally believe that all services will fulfill the task of the president and by May 1, Crimea will receive required electricity in full volume," - the head of Crimea said.
    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/politics/848103

    MOSCOW, December 31. /TASS/. Russia’s President Vladimir Putin has instructed the authorities of Crimea and Sevastopol to hold an opinion poll among the population before signing a contract for electricity supplies to the peninsula with Ukraine, Russia’s Energy Minister Alexander Novak told reporters on Thursday. "The president has ordered to turn urgently to one of the leading professional agencies to hold an opinion poll among the population of the Crimea and Sevastopol on the following questions. The first question: do you support the conclusion of a commercial contract with Ukraine for the supply of the electricity to Crimea and Sevastopol, if it is stated that Crimea and Sevastopol are part of Ukraine, or you don’t?" the minister said. He added that this was the wording Ukraine wanted to include in the contract and Russia does not agree with it. "The second question is: Are you ready to temporary difficulties associated with minor disruptions of energy supply in the next 3-4 months?" the minister said. According to him, the president considers it appropriate to conduct a survey before making a final decision on signing or not signing a contract.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/economy/848089

    I believe the biggest question here is that Kiev is demanding that a new Electricity contract state that "Crimea and Sevastopol are a part of Ukraine".
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    Post  franco Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:16 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Must be a reason for this.

    KIEV, December 31. /TASS/. Roadblocks barring passage from Ukraine to the Republic of Crimea are being removed after a decision by Kiev authorities to restrict commodities bound for the newly independent territory, a Ukrainian activist announced on Thursday.

    Observers remain stationed at the entry point to the Black Sea peninsula but are not impending through traffic, organizer Lenur Islyamov announced on Thursday. "We are removing all the roadblocks - six of them, two on each road," he told the 112 Ukraine TV channel. "Observers remain, but are not stopping anyone. "The government has eventually agreed with our demand for a commodity blockade and the decision it made, although half-hearted and vague, is by and large what we would like to see," he added, explaining the roadblocks' lifting.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/world/848067

    The Russians cut off trade effective today so there is no need. But just because they are what they are, Kiev has retaliated and cut off trade too. The "storm troopers" are no longer needed to enforce the unofficial "official" blockade.
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:17 pm

    Regular wrote:My understanding is that Russia was pressed by time to annex Crimea and couldn't play politics in a land with no laws. Say whatever about now self-entitled posh crimeans, but BSF guys were the ones who were saved:) Strategic importance and all that. Not that 99% population support didn't help, but protecting russians came as a bonus.

    IMHO, if Crimea hadn't gone to Russia, there'd be no DPR, LPR. Crimea, imho, is one of the smartest things the ppl in Crimea did, i.e. go to Russia, and one of the smartest things Russia did, i.e. protect Crimeans, and assist them.

    PPl can bla bla bla, but Crimea will never go back to Ukraine...
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:25 pm

    Long Sputnik thread on how Poro is basically up the creek without a paddle now that Ukraine is way down the West's list of priorities.

    The leaders of the Normandy Quartet (Ukraine, Russia, Germany and France) recently agreed to extend the implementation of the Minsk accords, aimed at restoring peace in eastern Ukraine, into 2016. What does the extension mean, what are its prospects, and why do authorities in Kiev seem to have such a hard time fulfilling their obligations?

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20160101/1032576602/ukraine-civil-war-minsk-agreements-analysis.html#ixzz3vzysVHAv
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:29 pm

    I believe the biggest question here is that Kiev is demanding that a new Electricity contract state that "Crimea and Sevastopol are a part of Ukraine".[/quote]

    Agree with you about that. This is what Interfax say about this particular incident.

    Ukraine's Kakhovka-Titan electric power line was disconnected from Crimean peninsula following falling of the pylon carrying the transmission power line.

    "During a regular beat nearly at midnight, a fallen pylon was found. In the dark it was impossible to carry a detailed examination. That's why a character of the damage will be discovered when it is already light. A request for repairs will be submitted. And depending on these measures to avoid the damage will be taken: maintenance or replacement of the pylon," Ukrenergo information policy department's chief said on air with 112 TV channel.

    He said the pylon carrying Kakhovka-Titan power transmission line fell 20 kilometers from Kakhovka. As reported, on Wednesday evening Kakhovka-Titan power line was disconnected as a result of the abrasion of protection relay system. An attempt to switch it on was in vain.

    No electricity was delivered to Crimea from Ukraine as of Wednesday evening. Rolling blackout schedules are expected to be introduced in Crimea and Sevastopol, said Sevastopol mayor's secretary Kiril Moskalenko.


    Also, so sabotage confirmed.

    The police have said quoting preliminary data that the concrete pylons supporting the power lines in the area of the village of Bohdanivka, Kakhovka district, Kherson region, were damaged as the result of a blast.

    "According to preliminary conclusions of experts of the counter-explosive service the pylon was damaged in an explosion," reads in a statement of the Communication Department of the Main Department of the National Police in Kherson region released on Thursday.


    Last edited by JohninMK on Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
    franco
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    Post  franco Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:33 pm

    All cargo from Ukraine to Central Asia must go thru Belarus (2 points) and into Kazakhstan (3 points);
    http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=644098
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    Post  franco Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:34 pm

    Interfax

    01/01 16:07 CRIMEA RESIDENTS READY FOR TEMPORARY DIFFICULTIES OF THREE-FOUR MONTHS IF POWER SUPPLY CONTRACT WITH UKRAINE IS NOT SIGNED - VTSIOM

    01/01 16:06 CRIMEA RESIDENTS DO NOT SUPPORT POWER SUPPLY CONTRACT WITH KYIV AS PHRASED BY UKRAINE - VTSIOM
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    Post  kvs Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:49 pm

    franco wrote:Interfax

    01/01 16:07   CRIMEA RESIDENTS READY FOR TEMPORARY DIFFICULTIES OF THREE-FOUR MONTHS IF POWER SUPPLY CONTRACT WITH UKRAINE IS NOT SIGNED - VTSIOM

    01/01 16:06   CRIMEA RESIDENTS DO NOT SUPPORT POWER SUPPLY CONTRACT WITH KYIV AS PHRASED BY UKRAINE - VTSIOM

    The real owners of Crimea asserting their rights and not recognizing the land grab by Kiev in 1991.
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    Post  franco Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:32 pm

    Kiev brings in reinforcements to Mariupol... 300 Turks & Arab mercenaries apparently;
    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151231/1032556958/turkish-arabic-mercenaries-ukraine.html?utm_source=https%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2F62hQxYebYb&utm_medium=short_url&utm_content=avTM&utm_campaign=URL_shortening
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:08 pm

    Ukraine's debt moves to the High Court in London. Note that it is LDC, established 1889 in London, not Russia that is going for the money. A clever move by Russia which makes it virtually indefensible by Ukraine.

    The Russian Finance Ministry has stated the Ukrainian default on eurobonds.

    The $3 billion eurobonds acquired by Russia in late 2013 with sovereign wealth fund money matured on the New Year's Eve. Ukraine declared a moratorium on servicing that debt and Russia said it would defend its interests in court.

    "The Russian Finance Ministry reports on January 1 that Ukraine has not made the payment of $3.075 billion in repayment and servicing of external bonds owned by Russia during the grace period, which expired on December 31, 2015," the ministry said in a statement. The Finance Ministry contacted The Law Debenture Corporation plc, which acts as the principal creditor to bond issue documents, and initiated legal procedures required for filing a lawsuit against Ukraine. The lawsuit will be filed with a British court, the ministry said.

    Finance Minister Anton Siluanov said earlier that Russia did not deem dialogue with Ukraine to be impossible even despite the legal action. "Russia intends to carefully examine any significant proposal from Ukraine, but it also believes that the court proceedings do not rule out a constructive dialogue in order to reach an acceptable settlement of the debt," the ministry said in its statement of December 31.


    http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/315199.html
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    Post  franco Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:28 pm

    Under International Banking agreements, sovereign debt (government to government) is tried before the London court while commercial or private debt (private to government) is tried before a Parisian court.


    Last edited by franco on Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Khepesh Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:14 pm

    Dmitry Peskov has said that President Putin is unlikely to sign a contract with Ukraine for supply of electricity to Crimea due to the results of the poll conducted. The results are that on the first question, 93,2% would accept a contract only if it stipulated that Ukraine recognized that Sevastopol and Crimea were part of Russia, which they will not, so the result of that question is a rejection of the contract with Ukraine. On the second question, more than 94% of residents of Crimea said they would be willing to suffer power outages for several more months.  http://www.rbc.ru/politics/01/01/2016/568689249a79472b6ca8e54b
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    Post  Project Canada Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:17 am



    Moscow Defines $17.8-Gas Discount for Ukraine in 1Q16 – Gov’t Decree

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/business/20160101/1032579682/russia-ukraine-gas-discount.html#ixzz3w2OG3BMJ
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:44 am

    franco wrote:Under International Banking agreements, sovereign debt (government to government) is tried before the London court while commercial or private debt (private to government) is tried before a Parisian court.
    That may be correct but this deal is a wee bit different to 'normal'.

    As far as one can tell, as Russia was well aware of the risks of default it did not go down the normal route with a Russia/Ukraine International direct agreement. Instead, it was packaged by LDC in London so that it, not the Russians, lent the Russian money to Ukraine in a contract under English not International Law. This is what caused all the discussions over the last few months as to whether it was actually 'sovereign' debt or not. In the end Russia prevailed in the IMF, due primarily to the money coming out of Russian State funds and ending up as Ukrainian State funds, albeit via a slightly unconventional (but extra commission earning for bankers so probably good in IMF's eyes) extra step.

    I have been sued in the High Court in London and it is not a pleasant or cheap experience. The key part of the process is understanding from the start how strong your case is as negotiations on a deal start virtually the moment you get there and continue almost until the Judge opens his mouth on his decision. I would think that this is pretty much an open and shut case where Ukraine won't pay, rather than a discussion on failure to meet clauses of the contract. Any other discussion, like the Ukrainians trying to bleat on about illegal use of the money will not be allowed unless that subject was in a clause in the contract. These Courts are about as far as you can get from any Court you may have seen in a film or on TV. Paperwork rules OK! The official decision confirmed in Rada to not pay probably shot themselves in the foot as far as London is concerned. I doubt it will go all the way.

    Much of English Commercial Law is written to protect the interests of those with money, the landed gentry, bankers, etc in the old and not so old, days. They didn't stay rich and get richer by letting anyone off their debts when those debts could be enforced in 'their' courts. Times haven't changed, in England, if you understand the contract you are making in borrowing money, like in this case where there are professional advisers on both sides, you probably only have one way of getting out of paying, insolvency or bankruptcy.

    It is probable that Moscow has the whip hand here.
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:22 am

    Rumoured to be one of the pipelines used for reverse flow into Ukraine blowing in Transcarpathia. Comments in Russian may explain it better than me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Rw63xRArc&feature=youtu.be
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    Post  auslander Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:31 am

    Khepesh wrote:Dmitry Peskov has said that President Putin is unlikely to sign a contract with Ukraine for supply of electricity to Crimea due to the results of the poll conducted. The results are that on the first question, 93,2% would accept a contract only if it stipulated that Ukraine recognized that Sevastopol and Crimea were part of Russia, which they will not, so the result of that question is a rejection of the contract with Ukraine. On the second question, more than 94% of residents of Crimea said they would be willing to suffer power outages for several more months.  http://www.rbc.ru/politics/01/01/2016/568689249a79472b6ca8e54b

    The orc proposals were categorically rejected. A substantial part of Kherson Oblast is again without power, the one line the orcs repaired, most of the power came to a transformer station in Krim and then right back to Kherson Oblast.

    We want nothing to do with the orcs, period. We've had enough of them and the 'guests' down here running around as if they still own the place are about to be invited to either file for refugee status, which means Russia can send them where she wants, or leave.
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    Post  franco Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:26 pm

    In Canada you say! Better late then never;
    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160103/1032633643/study-maidan-deaths-false-flag.html
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:32 pm

    franco wrote:In Canada you say! Better late then never;
    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160103/1032633643/study-maidan-deaths-false-flag.html

    I am just gonna add my comment from sputnik here:
    "I am from Canada (and also Ukrainian descendant), and this will fall on deaf ears. In other words, most will ignore such findings and the Ukrainians in Canada (decedents of those whom mostly fought for the Nazi's who fled the country after the Soviets took western Ukraine from Poland in the 30's) will decry this and call this guy a simple "Kremlin Stooge" as they are usually dumb and ignorant.

    so don't expect anything to come to this. Ukrainians here will make sure of that as they are mentally unstable people."

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    Post  kvs Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:05 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    franco wrote:In Canada you say! Better late then never;
    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160103/1032633643/study-maidan-deaths-false-flag.html

    I am just gonna add my comment from sputnik here:
    "I am from Canada (and also Ukrainian descendant), and this will fall on deaf ears. In other words, most will ignore such findings and the Ukrainians in Canada (decedents of those whom mostly fought for the Nazi's who fled the country after the Soviets took western Ukraine from Poland in the 30's) will decry this and call this guy a simple "Kremlin Stooge" as they are usually dumb and ignorant.

    so don't expect anything to come to this. Ukrainians here will make sure of that as they are mentally unstable people."


    I am half Ukrainian (western part) and the sort of delusional, cherry picking of fictional "facts" that my relatives engage in is
    surreal. They will just ignore any fact that does not conform to the ludicrous fantasy narratives they cherish. For example,
    they believe that the ethnic Russians in the Donbas are squatters after the Holodomor wiped out the original Ukrainian
    inhabitants. This is a vicious blood libel myth since the Donbas was a gift from Lenin to the newly minted Ukrainian
    Socialist Republic. There was no Ukraine in the Donbas before the Soviet social engineering. I noted to one of my relatives
    that there are ethnic Serbs and Greeks living there. This fact just went into one ear and out the other. It did not even
    register in their nationalist propaganda rotted brain that this is a total contradiction to the fairy tales about the Donbas that
    they believe.
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 7552
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #23 - Page 13 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #23

    Post  sepheronx Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:14 pm

    kvs wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    franco wrote:In Canada you say! Better late then never;
    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160103/1032633643/study-maidan-deaths-false-flag.html

    I am just gonna add my comment from sputnik here:
    "I am from Canada (and also Ukrainian descendant), and this will fall on deaf ears. In other words, most will ignore such findings and the Ukrainians in Canada (decedents of those whom mostly fought for the Nazi's who fled the country after the Soviets took western Ukraine from Poland in the 30's) will decry this and call this guy a simple "Kremlin Stooge" as they are usually dumb and ignorant.

    so don't expect anything to come to this. Ukrainians here will make sure of that as they are mentally unstable people."


    I am half Ukrainian (western part) and the sort of delusional, cherry picking of fictional "facts" that my relatives engage in is
    surreal.  They will just ignore any fact that does not conform to the ludicrous fantasy narratives they cherish.   For example,
    they believe that the ethnic Russians in the Donbas are squatters after the Holodomor wiped out the original Ukrainian
    inhabitants.   This is a vicious blood libel myth since the Donbas was a gift from Lenin to the newly minted Ukrainian
    Socialist Republic.   There was no Ukraine in the Donbas before the Soviet social engineering.  I noted to one of my relatives
    that there are ethnic Serbs and Greeks living there.   This fact just went into one ear and out the other.   It did not even
    register in their nationalist propaganda rotted brain that this is a total contradiction to the fairy tales about the Donbas that
    they believe.

    Same on my side of the family too. Although, I have to give it to my father as he is extremely smart man and he was always under the impression that Ukraine was a "country of losers". Essentially he knows what is happening and he even stated that there is really no point anymore to the country. He will be surprised if there will be a Ukraine in the decade. Mom on the other hand is a typical blond Ukrainian woman - lights are on but no one upstairs. Well, I guess someone decided to actually come home and go upstairs cause now she is starting to realize that what is being told about her families homeland is not actually what is happening and things are actually really bad now. It just took her a real long time to figure this out. So she now shares my fathers pov on this. Most of the rest of my family don't care anymore as they want nothing to do with their former homeland anymore and well, I think we completely abandoned the remaining family members that live there (then again, we haven't really spoke to many of them for a long time so we figure they have already left to either Poland or Russia).

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