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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

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    Rodinazombie

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    Post  Rodinazombie Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:26 pm

    Khepesh wrote:This is an overlay of the area that the Dutch say is from where the Buk was fired from put onto the map that ukrops were presenting as where their forces were at that time. The Dutch are either deliberately lying on their own accord or lying because they are told to by Washington.
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 11 5f67a07025f5

    When was saur mogila taken?
    Khepesh
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    Post  Khepesh Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:29 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:Theres a stpry doing the rounds on russian social media right now, as of yet i cant find any official media links, but its quite interesting. Apparently, suspicion over the killing of the 'heavenly hundred' is falling on members of the party 'svoboda'.

    Something about this rings true, werent there photos or a video of the guys in the car who maidanists searched and had sniper rifles in the boot and the car turned out to be a government vehicle whose occupants are buddies of yatsenyuk and tyagnibok?

    Khepish, have you any more info on this? If you can drag up the links of the story of the video i mention above that would be great.
    It comes from the discovery that a sniper was operating from room 1132 of the hotel "Ukraine". This room was being used as the home of "Svoboda" MP Igor Yankiv, who just happens to be a shooting instuctor.....
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    Rodinazombie

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    Post  Rodinazombie Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:31 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote:Theres a stpry doing the rounds on russian social media right now, as of yet i cant find any official media links, but its quite interesting. Apparently, suspicion over the killing of the 'heavenly hundred' is falling on members of the party 'svoboda'.

    Something about this rings true, werent there photos or a video of the guys in the car who maidanists searched and had sniper rifles in the boot and the car turned out to be a government vehicle whose occupants are buddies of yatsenyuk and tyagnibok?

    Khepish, have you any more info on this? If you can drag up the links of the story of the video i mention above that would be great.
    It comes from the discovery that a sniper was operating from room 1132 of the hotel "Ukraine". This room was being used as the home of "Svoboda" MP Igor Yankiv, who just happens to be a shooting instuctor.....

    Im not a fan of conspiracies, but even im now convinced that this was a false flag. Shame on ukraine.
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    Post  Khepesh Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:39 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:

    When was saur mogila taken?
    After MH17 and in August, perhaps about the same time as the crisis at Krasny Luch was developing. Tho I would not call a few ukrops taking a selfie half way up the hill as them taking Saur-Mogila. Tho the final few VSN defenders had withdrawn or were dead, ukrops could not hold the hill. The ukrops map is of course a fiction, but the important thing is that they say they held the bulk of the area pointed out by the Dutch as the possible launch area, so seriously implicate themselves as that map was provided by Kiev Defence Ministry and used by western MSM as "proof" of the "success" of ukrops. To trash that map means a lot of people have to admit they were lying last year, but I doubt they care.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:55 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    remember who posted this? It starts by U..
    I have no idea what I need to be helped with or who "U" is

    Uncle Sam/
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:59 pm

    Poro the peacemaker.

    KIEV (Sputnik) — The withdrawal of arms from the line of contact in eastern Ukraine will secure a ceasefire between Kiev forces and Donetsk and Luhansk militias that has been holding for weeks, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said Tuesday.

    In late September, leaders of the self-proclaimed republics of Donetsk and Luhansk signed an agreement with Kiev on the pullout of weapons of less than 100mm caliber in Donbass. Earlier in October, Lugansk and Kiev began the process, while Donetsk plans to begin the withdrawal later this month.

    "The proposal to withdraw tanks, mortars, artillery, put forward by Ukraine should only consolidate the truce," Poroshenko said.

    According to the September deal, the sides have 41 days to fully withdraw such weapons.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151013/1028480421/withdrawal-poroshenko-donbass.html#ixzz3oTYlB5Pt
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:21 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:One thing that makes me wonder, why hasnt kiev produced a list of buks it had in its possession at the time of the outbreak of war, and how many of them were lost in territories controlled by rebels
    . Surely it should be quite easy for them to narrow it down to buk number x or y? Why havent they released details of these missing buks and started a search for them? For the past year and a half it seems we are looking for a phantom buk.
    You got to be kidding. Even Kiev isn't stupid enough to do a stock check that might pin the event on them, even more so it was one of theirs that did it.

    As to the report, the Dutch seem to be very carefully and skilfully treading a path where they are saying as much as they can without the other parties, especially Ukraine, exercising their right to censor. Most of the Western press seem to be exercising a bit of caution this time. No 'Putin did it' headlines. This is a link to the Daily Mail, which, although pushing the 'Seps did it', puts it pretty fairly given what the report says. Some pretty good photos in it too.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3270355/Doomed-flight-MH17-shot-Russian-BUK-missile-fired-rebel-held-territory-eastern-Ukraine-Dutch-investigators-set-rule.html
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:49 pm

    Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ukraine ban Russian airlines? Might that be a reason? Wonder which oligarch controls Ukraine's airlines, this should be a profit boost!

    As the Russian Federal Air Transport Agency (Rosaviation) has not explained the reasons for restricting Ukrainian airlines' flights in Russian airspace starting October 25, 2015, the Ukrainian State Aviation Service has decided to fully terminate commercial air services between Ukraine and Russia starting this date, the Ukrainian Infrastructure Ministry reported on Monday.

    http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/295942.html
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    Post  Khepesh Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:45 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:

    Uncle Sam/
    Ah, I think I got lost on translation on your post Embarassed
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:46 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:

    Uncle Sam/
    Ah, I think I got lost on translation on your post Embarassed

    No worries. Same side, no Red on Red here.
    franco
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    Post  franco Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:51 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:One thing that makes me wonder, why hasnt kiev produced a list of buks it had in its possession at the time of the outbreak of war, and how many of them were lost in territories controlled by rebels
    . Surely it should be quite easy for them to narrow it down to buk number x or y? Why havent they released details of these missing buks and started a search for them? For the past year and a half it seems we are looking for a phantom buk.

    Ukrainian Buks were stationed at 2 bases in Donetsk and Luhansk prior to or at the start of hostilities in 2014. Both bases soon taken over by rebel forces but the Ukrainian Army claimed at the time that all launchers and missiles successfully removed or destroyed prior to the bases being over run.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:32 pm

    franco wrote:Ukrainian Buks were stationed at 2 bases in Donetsk and Luhansk prior to or at the start of hostilities in 2014. Both bases soon taken over by rebel forces but the Ukrainian Army claimed at the time that all launchers and missiles successfully removed or destroyed prior to the bases being over run.  

    No one but Russian forces mentiones Ukranian BUK deployment in the area of operations and they where there in numbers.

    No one mentiones lost tapes from the Ukranian air trafic control etc .... anyhow Russian Federation is freed of charges which was the main cause for the sanction game played by US media

    and its EU lackeys.
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    Post  OminousSpudd Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:40 pm

    Thinking of the Dutch Safety Board's investigation and its parallels with the Almaz-Antey one over a good brew this morning I've come to the conclusion that it is no coincidence that they are so similar. Nor is it a coincidence that Almaz-Antey's presentation was literally only hours before that of the Dutch Safety Board's.
    It would also be fairly stupid to assume that Almaz-Antey is working without the MoD's er, blessing.  I would say that what they have presented has already been shown in private to Shoigu and co. so as not to destroy the validity of the MoD's own analysis... which it hasn't I would like to point out.
    With these points in mind what are we exactly seeing...

    What I'm seeing is not just the concurrence of a Russian state asset with the highly publicised Dutch Safety Board, but also an interesting PR spin. In a way it is like Russia is endorsing the Safety Board's findings, while not actually endorsing the Safety Board's findings. Common plebs won't distinguish between a Russian Defence company and Moscow itself, especially not as time passes (and the Western Tabloid headlines get bored).

    TLDR: This is an unofficial show of support for what was probably already known before the DSB's public release. Also makes Russia look like they're fighting for the good guys and the truth in the public eye.

    There's my convoluted coffee riddled BS for the morning.
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:41 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:Thinking of the Dutch Safety Board's investigation and its parallels with the Almaz-Antey one over a good brew this morning I've come to the conclusion that it is no coincidence that they are so similar. Nor is it a coincidence that Almaz-Antey's presentation was literally only hours before that of the Dutch Safety Board's.
    It would also be fairly stupid to assume that Almaz-Antey is working without the MoD's er, blessing.  I would say that what they have presented has already been shown in private to Shoigu and co. so as not to destroy the validity of the MoD's own analysis... which it hasn't I would like to point out.
    With these points in mind what are we exactly seeing...

    What I'm seeing is not just the concurrence of a Russian state asset with the highly publicised Dutch Safety Board, but also an interesting PR spin. In a way it is like Russia is endorsing the Safety Board's findings, while not actually endorsing the Safety Board's findings. Common plebs won't distinguish between a Russian Defence company and Moscow itself, especially not as time passes (and the Western Tabloid headlines get bored).

    TLDR: This is an unofficial show of support for what was probably already known before the DSB's public release. Also makes Russia look like they're fighting for the good guys and the truth in the public eye.

    There's my convoluted coffee riddled BS for the morning.
    Like it. Now all they have to decide between them is the type of missile, "this could be only the 9M38 missile of the older modification compared with the 9M38M1 missile that has no H-shaped striking elements" as Almaz-Antey claim, as well as the launch site.

    Wonder if Yat's fierce reaction today was a reaction to his instinct that Ukraine, as it slowly slides from the world's consciousness, is going to be outed in a year or so when the criminal report now seems to be due.

    Russia is riding tall at the moment, next year will be major with the probable end of sanctions etc. I would not bet on Putin staying on for another term.
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    Post  OminousSpudd Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:04 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Thinking of the Dutch Safety Board's investigation and its parallels with the Almaz-Antey one over a good brew this morning I've come to the conclusion that it is no coincidence that they are so similar. Nor is it a coincidence that Almaz-Antey's presentation was literally only hours before that of the Dutch Safety Board's.
    It would also be fairly stupid to assume that Almaz-Antey is working without the MoD's er, blessing.  I would say that what they have presented has already been shown in private to Shoigu and co. so as not to destroy the validity of the MoD's own analysis... which it hasn't I would like to point out.
    With these points in mind what are we exactly seeing...

    What I'm seeing is not just the concurrence of a Russian state asset with the highly publicised Dutch Safety Board, but also an interesting PR spin. In a way it is like Russia is endorsing the Safety Board's findings, while not actually endorsing the Safety Board's findings. Common plebs won't distinguish between a Russian Defence company and Moscow itself, especially not as time passes (and the Western Tabloid headlines get bored).

    TLDR: This is an unofficial show of support for what was probably already known before the DSB's public release. Also makes Russia look like they're fighting for the good guys and the truth in the public eye.

    There's my convoluted coffee riddled BS for the morning.
    Like it. Now all they have to decide between them is the type of missile, "this could be only the 9M38 missile of the older modification compared with the 9M38M1 missile that has no H-shaped striking elements" as Almaz-Antey claim, as well as the launch site.

    Wonder if Yat's fierce reaction today was a reaction to his instinct that Ukraine, as it slowly slides from the world's consciousness, is going to be outed in a year or so when the criminal report now seems to be due.

    Russia is riding tall at the moment, next year will be major with the probable end of sanctions etc. I would not bet on Putin staying on for another term.
    The 404 country's elites are really running scared. Everyone remembers Yats' "I'm gonna skedaddle to Canada" comment. I think it may have reached the point where the US doesn't give a crap as to who the DSB finds guilty... they paid the Dutch to delay the investigation I think, not necessarily change the outcome. They know the Western audiences have serious ADHD, so delaying it was fine.

    I imagine eventually Ukraine will be implied as the perpetrator, but only vaguely on page six as a footnote in the classifieds.

    I hope VVP has a protege if he retires, we don't need another Medvedev to slow Russian momentum at the moment. The guy is a legend, I hope he is remembered as such in the history books.
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:43 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Like it. Now all they have to decide between them is the type of missile, "this could be only the 9M38 missile of the older modification compared with the 9M38M1 missile that has no H-shaped striking elements" as Almaz-Antey claim, as well as the launch site.

    Wonder if Yat's fierce reaction today was a reaction to his instinct that Ukraine, as it slowly slides from the world's consciousness, is going to be outed in a year or so when the criminal report now seems to be due.

    Russia is riding tall at the moment, next year will be major with the probable end of sanctions etc. I would not bet on Putin staying on for another term.
    The 404 country's elites are really running scared. Everyone remembers Yats' "I'm gonna skedaddle to Canada" comment. I think it may have reached the point where the US doesn't give a crap as to who the DSB finds guilty... they paid the Dutch to delay the investigation I think, not necessarily change the outcome. They know the Western audiences have serious ADHD, so delaying it was fine.

    I imagine eventually Ukraine will be implied as the perpetrator, but only vaguely on page six as a footnote in the classifieds.

    I hope VVP has a protege if he retires, we don't need another Medvedev to slow Russian momentum at the moment. The guy is a legend, I hope he is remembered as such in the history books.
    I don't know much but my money would be on Lavrov (not sure he wants the job) or Shoygu.
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    Rodinazombie

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    Post  Rodinazombie Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:59 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Like it. Now all they have to decide between them is the type of missile, "this could be only the 9M38 missile of the older modification compared with the 9M38M1 missile that has no H-shaped striking elements" as Almaz-Antey claim, as well as the launch site.

    Wonder if Yat's fierce reaction today was a reaction to his instinct that Ukraine, as it slowly slides from the world's consciousness, is going to be outed in a year or so when the criminal report now seems to be due.

    Russia is riding tall at the moment, next year will be major with the probable end of sanctions etc. I would not bet on Putin staying on for another term.
    The 404 country's elites are really running scared. Everyone remembers Yats' "I'm gonna skedaddle to Canada" comment. I think it may have reached the point where the US doesn't give a crap as to who the DSB finds guilty... they paid the Dutch to delay the investigation I think, not necessarily change the outcome. They know the Western audiences have serious ADHD, so delaying it was fine.

    I imagine eventually Ukraine will be implied as the perpetrator, but only vaguely on page six as a footnote in the classifieds.

    I hope VVP has a protege if he retires, we don't need another Medvedev to slow Russian momentum at the moment. The guy is a legend, I hope he is remembered as such in the history books.
    I don't know much but my money would be on Lavrov (not sure he wants the job) or Shoygu.

    Lavrov is too old, shoigu is the best bet but he is unproven as yet, is he tough enough? I think putin should hang around intil the end of the decade to see russia through this important period, but by then he would be almost 70, the guy deserves a rest.


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    Post  Dforce Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:06 am

    Stay classy, Russia:

    The report by the Dutch safety board said that more than 120 objects, “mostly metal fragments”, were found in the body of the first officer, who had sustained “multiple fractures”. When Dutch experts identified the captain’s body they found it had already “undergone an external and internal examination to remove foreign objects”.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/mh17-report-suggests-efforts-were-made-to-cover-up-causes-of-disaster?CMP=share_btn_tw
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    Post  Dforce Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:14 am

    Khepesh wrote:This is an overlay of the area that the Dutch say is from where the Buk was fired from put onto the map that ukrops were presenting as where their forces were at that time. The Dutch are either deliberately lying on their own accord or lying because they are told to by Washington.
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 11 5f67a07025f5

    Haha, you might want to post the one for 16th or 17th of July instead of one from August. Are you lot swallowing EVERYTHING here?

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 11 Map-nsdc-2014-07-17-uk-w3000
    OminousSpudd
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    Post  OminousSpudd Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:19 am

    Dforce wrote:Stay classy, Russia:

    The report by the Dutch safety board said that more than 120 objects, “mostly metal fragments”, were found in the body of the first officer, who had sustained “multiple fractures”. When Dutch experts identified the captain’s body they found it had already “undergone an external and internal examination to remove foreign objects”.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/mh17-report-suggests-efforts-were-made-to-cover-up-causes-of-disaster?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Lol, seen some of your posts on TheMess now. "Putlerbots" etc. So who's the classy one here?

    Anyway, one has to wonder at what point forensic scientists or doctors from Russia were able to "remove evidence" from the bodies, and why they would do it in the first place. Just as likely to be Ukies, Russians, Euro, US, or maybe even the Dutch themselves.
    Also, nice source. Surely reliable.
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    Post  Vann7 Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:14 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:Thinking of the Dutch Safety Board's investigation and its parallels with the Almaz-Antey one over a good brew this morning I've come to the conclusion that it is no coincidence that they are so similar. Nor is it a coincidence that Almaz-Antey's presentation was literally only hours before that of the Dutch Safety Board's.
    It would also be fairly stupid to assume that Almaz-Antey is working without the MoD's er, blessing.  I would say that what they have presented has already been shown in private to Shoigu and co. so as not to destroy the validity of the MoD's own analysis... which it hasn't I would like to point out.
    With these points in mind what are we exactly seeing...

    What I'm seeing is not just the concurrence of a Russian state asset with the highly publicised Dutch Safety Board, but also an interesting PR spin. In a way it is like Russia is endorsing the Safety Board's findings, while not actually endorsing the Safety Board's findings. Common plebs won't distinguish between a Russian Defence company and Moscow itself, especially not as time passes (and the Western Tabloid headlines get bored).

    TLDR: This is an unofficial show of support for what was probably already known before the DSB's public release. Also makes Russia look like they're fighting for the good guys and the truth in the public eye.

    There's my convoluted coffee riddled BS for the morning.

    The dutch investigation seems more to me like the 9/11 commission of world trade center
    attacks.. That the conclusion was made before any investigation began.. lol1
    What I'm seeing is not just the concurrence of an idiot trying to defend a report by Dutch investigators completely ignoring any evidence presented to them that does not fit their
    narrative.. but also an interesting PR spin of imbeciles ,trying to blame Russia for the shut down
    of a civilian plane as if Russian Radars could not detect such huge target or as if Russia military
    had anything to gain in shotting down a civilian plane.

    Listen Son of a an accident . Every Commercial Civilian Airliner in the world have a transponder
    ,a device that send a signal to all europe and Russia to that all Airports in the world can know exactly which plane is.. and which route they traveling and even the number of the passenger plane.. All that information is full visible for any radar in the zone.. Russian radars covers ALL EUrope civilian flights and military too.. So the possibility that Russia shot down the Malasyan planes are ZERO... and since the Buk missiles depends of highly trained staff ,to operate them and guide the missiles by Radio.. (is not a fire and forget missile..its a complex system)
    Then the possibility that a REbel could operate them without any experience is ZERO.. So neither Rebels could use a Buk..neither Russia could fire at a civilian plane.. Aside that the Rebels did not have Buk defenses. So it had to be someone else... and the only one left
    is Ukraine.. And the very fact that Ukraine was responsible of the security of the civilian and that allowed it to fly to the middle of war zone..that their Airforce was losing planes every day..
    The very fact that Ukraine allowed a civilian plane to fly over a very dangerous place.. puts them on the first list of directly responsible for the attack. Because it suggest that they were
    trying to lure civilians planes into a war zone to get the rebels to shut it down..

    the Dutch Investigation is a white wash of a crime.. nothing more and nothing else..
    The Alma Antei investigation is an incomplete investigation that do not take into account
    Russian Radars data ,witness and testimonies.. For example it could have been done by a combination of BUks + military planes attack.. The first attack by Su-25 small warhead air to air missiles and later finished by a Buk missile. Or simply there was no BUK at all.. and it was a false flag attack staged by the west to blame Russia for it.. In the Pentagon 9/11 and wtc center attacks for example the Bombs was already inside the buildings and the planes were used as a distraction.. in Short no one released any conclusive report of all that happened to
    the malasyan plane and that was to be expected.. Dutch Government is an ally of Americans..
    and you can't expect an US ally to release a report that helps Russia or that counter the western narrative.. The same Countries behind the Mh-17 investigation ..are the ones supporting Alqaeda and ISIS in Syria and that call Poroshenko a reformist and a man of peace. Rolling Eyes

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    Post  Osobist Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:01 am

    JohninMK wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ukraine ban Russian airlines? Might that be a reason? Wonder which oligarch controls Ukraine's airlines, this should be a profit boost!

    As the Russian Federal Air Transport Agency (Rosaviation) has not explained the reasons for restricting Ukrainian airlines' flights in Russian airspace starting October 25, 2015, the Ukrainian State Aviation Service has decided to fully terminate commercial air services between Ukraine and Russia starting this date, the Ukrainian Infrastructure Ministry reported on Monday.

    http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/295942.html

    Russia mirrored them back, so UA airlines are also banned from flying into Russia, and they controlled mostly by Kolomoiskiy, and he is NOT happy right now, only ways of air travel between UA and RF are via Minsk, Warsaw or Stambul. It was 4 Hrs wait between flights in Minsk, but now I think Luka as a good bean counter will streamline it in no time.
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    Post  Dforce Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:56 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    The dutch investigation seems more to me like the 9/11 commission of world trade center
    attacks.. That the conclusion was made before any investigation began.. lol1  

    What I'm seeing is not just the concurrence of an idiot trying to defend a report by Dutch investigator

    Truthers as well, who could have guessed?

    What I do not understand is that so many of you honestly seem to think that Russia did not do it; I find it very fascinating. Take Khepesh for instance, I do not for one moment think he WANTED to post a situation report from August  instead of July, but he is so sure that Russia was not behind this that he takes anything that points in that direction as fact without checking it first. To me that seems like you WANT the lies the Kremlin is feeding you. RodinaZombie seems to understand what the truth is, however.

    Oh, and by the way, the map Khepesh produced were from the 27th of August, please be sure to thank me for correcting you:

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 11 Map-nsdc-2014-08-27-uk-w3000



    PS.  I expect that this member gets  a harsh warning for calling me an idiot. The Forum pretends to treat every member the same, right?


    Last edited by Dforce on Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total
    auslander
    auslander

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 11 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  auslander Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:57 am

    Unconfirmed info from last night, RF is banning all food imports from Ukraine in retaliation for the right sector blockade at Krim/Ukraine borders.
    sepheronx
    sepheronx

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 11 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  sepheronx Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:01 am

    Dforce wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:

    The dutch investigation seems more to me like the 9/11 commission of world trade center
    attacks.. That the conclusion was made before any investigation began.. lol1  

    What I'm seeing is not just the concurrence of an idiot trying to defend a report by Dutch investigator

    Truthers as well, who could have guessed?

    What I do not understand is that so many of you honestly seem to think that Russia did not do it; I find it very fascinating. Take Khepesh for instance, I do not for one moment think he WANTED to post a situation report from August  instead of July, but he is so sure that Russia was not behind this that he takes anything that points in that direction as fact without checking it first. To me that seems like you WANT the lies the Kremlin is feeding you. RodinaZombie seems to understand what the truth is, however.

    Oh, and by the way, the map Khepesh produced were from the 27th of August, please be sure to thank me for correcting you:

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 11 Map-nsdc-2014-08-27-uk-w3000



    PS.  I expect that this member gets  a harsh warning for calling me an idiot. The Forum pretends to treat every member the same, right?

    And the dutch report didn't say Russia did it either. So are you adding your own content now? You sound like the Ukrainians....

    Sponsored content

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 11 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

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