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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Neutrality
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    Post  Neutrality Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:53 pm

    Khepesh wrote:French publisher Larousse issued socio-economic world atlas for 2016
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 10 Da12a01c4bd1

    I see what they did there Laughing
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    Post  Rodinazombie Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:13 pm

    For anyone who understands ukrainian or russian, feel free to have a look at http://gazeta.ua for a good laugh. Theres a few good stories on their home page, such as 'russian intelligence services planned the shootdown of mh-17-yatsenyuk' or 'syria will turn into another afghanistan for russia'
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:15 pm

    http://sputniknews.com/world/20151013/1028437455/mh17-russia-report-almaz-antey.html


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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:34 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:French publisher Larousse issued socio-economic world atlas for 2016
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 10 Da12a01c4bd1

    I see what they did there Laughing

    France being a nation of visionnaires.
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    Post  Rodinazombie Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:51 pm

    Dutch report is being released now, they confirm it was a buk, and rules out sir to air strike.

    An interesting titbit so far

    11:33 GMT
    Ukraine aviation regulators admitted that their military used arms in the country's east that could strike civil aviation, the Dutch Safety Board stated.



    The missile damaged the Malaysian Airlines Boeing from the left side, Joustra said adding the Ukrainian authorities failed to take precautions for the 165 different commercial flights which flew along the same corridor as the downed plane.

    There were sufficient grounds to close the airspace, but the Ukrainian authorities failed to do so, the DSB representative said.

    “None of the parties involved recognized the risk from the armed conflict on the ground,” Joustra said.

    Someone in banderstan is going to be upset about that.

    11:49 GMT
    An additional probe is needed to establish the location of the missile launch, Joustra said, concluding the presentation.

    Looks like they are doing it the right way and havent let politics take over of this is the case. Bravo i say. I think western media is going to try flinging mud at the russian  press conference rather than analise this one. I think its very very interesting that there is no hinting or comment about russia being guilty, but they clearly hint that ukraine has a responsibility by not closing its airspace. I do get the feeling, it will be kiev that ends up paying out millions to the families of the victims.



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    Post  Rodinazombie Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:08 pm

    https://www.rt.com/news/318536-mh17-investigation-dutch-report/

    The Dutch Safety Board says a BUK missile with a 3N314M warhead was responsible for downing MH17. It also noted that Ukrainian aviation regulators admitted that Kiev used arms in the east of Ukraine which were capable of striking passenger aircraft.
    Trends
    Malaysia MH17 plane crash
    The announcement at an airbase in Gilze Rijen in the Netherlands mentioned that civil aviation aircraft should not have been allowed to fly over the east of Ukraine, due to the risk of a plane being struck.

    Tjibbe Joustra, the Dutch Safety Board chairman stated that there were more than enough reasons to close the airspace of eastern Ukraine and that Kiev should have taken these steps.

    However, no such precautions were taken and 160 different commercial aircraft were flying along the same corridor from which MH17 was downed.

    Immediately after the tragic accident took place, airspace over the region was closed.

    The Dutch Safety Board also mentioned that they have been unable to determine who was in control of the particular area where the BUK missile was fired from.

    Theres gonna be some serious butthurt about this. Funny, how this is exactly what most of us were saying a year ago.

    Oh, and surprise surprise, gazeta.ua still have their main story as mh17 being planned by the russians, nothing about the report yet. I guess they are scratching their heads about how to play this.

    Edit: just had a quick gander at five different prominent ukrainian news sites, and whilst they all mention it was hit by a buk, not one of them mention the bit about ukraine not closing its airspace.



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    Post  Khepesh Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:34 pm

    Something about MH17 for future reference when the "crimminal" report is released. At the time of MH17 it was said, and is still said, that the entire area to the south of Torez was held by Militia. This conclusion is reached by two elements, firstly that of simple propaganda lies, secondly on the basis of kot-ivanov maps because the map for that period shows this to be so, as can be seen on what I post. However, it was pointed out on 22 July last year by kot-ivanov that he was marking the front line on the basis of reports from both sides of where they had HQ of units. Therefore as Militia held Illovaisk and Saur-Mogila, and ukrops were not reporting they had any HQ in any village north of a line drawn between those two locations, he simply drew a line between them as the front line for convenience, and so put all the area involving MH17 in Militia held territory. But just as ukrops had not reported having any HQ in that huge area in between Illovaisk and Saur-Mogila, neither did Militia. In fact we know the Militia front line ran along the line Donetsk, Zugres, Zhaktersk, Torez, Snezhnoe, with the front extending south from Zugres to Illovaisk and from Snezhnoe to Saur-Mogila, but NOT in the area between which was infact generally occupied by ukrops and is the area concerning the possible launch site of a ukrops Buk. At the time ukrops supporters were saying kot-ivanov maps were wrong and that ukrops held more territory than he showed, then suddenly when MH17 happens his maps become some bible of absolute truth.... This will all become more relevant when the report is released.
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 10 D5f3e9813756


    Last edited by Khepesh on Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Rodinazombie Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:37 pm

    British media as predicted is already following the 'russian made missile' line.

    Did the dutch actually say the words 'russian made' or is this just typical propaganda spin?
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    Post  Khepesh Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:03 pm

    PDF of the full report
    http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/report-mh17-crash-en.pdf
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:04 pm

    Just british tabloids being british media. Adding their own lines.
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    Post  Khepesh Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:20 pm

    On page 137 of the report is this paragraph about where the missile data came from, well well....

    On behalf of Ukraine, the Kyiv Research Institute for Forensic Expertise of the Ministry of
    Justice and military experts of the Ukrainian Defense Ministry provided the results of
    their simulations performed regarding the origin of the damage.

    Also the data given in the televised report for possible areas a missile could have been fired from came from Kiev.
    Page 144
    In a simulation performed by the Kyiv Research Institute for Forensic Expertise, an area
    of 4 square kilometres was calculated using the 9M38M1 missile and 9N314M warhead.
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    Post  Neutrality Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:26 pm

    Just as I thought. "Russian made missile". All BUKs and the missiles for it are Russian made. The media are going to blame Moscow for that simply because the systems were designed and developed by Russia.
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    Post  Neutrality Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:46 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote: I do get the feeling, it will be kiev that ends up paying out millions to the families of the victims.

    It's already being hinted at:

    http://www.rbc.ru/politics/13/10/2015/561d045a9a79473330a9ee26
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:55 pm

    Khepesh wrote:On page 137 of the report is this paragraph about where the missile data came from, well well....

    On behalf of Ukraine, the Kyiv Research Institute for Forensic Expertise of the Ministry of
    Justice and military experts of the Ukrainian Defense Ministry provided the results of
    their simulations performed regarding the origin of the damage.

    Also the data given in the televised report for possible areas a missile could have been fired from came from Kiev.
    Page 144
    In a simulation performed by the Kyiv Research Institute for Forensic Expertise, an area
    of 4 square kilometres was calculated using the 9M38M1 missile and 9N314M warhead.

    Not so easy. The Area limited by Kiev was expanded both By Almaz Antey and The Board. Path of the missile contradicts the initial assumption it came from Left Left. They show the missile crossed the axis of flight. That looks werid but makes Snezhnoe almost impossible as well. Remember who pushed for Snezhnoe to be the firing point?
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    Post  Khepesh Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:24 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Not so easy. The Area limited by Kiev was expanded both By Almaz Antey and The Board. Path of the missile contradicts the initial assumption it came from Left Left. They show the missile crossed the axis of flight. That looks werid but makes Snezhnoe almost impossible as well. Remember who pushed for Snezhnoe to be the firing point?
    On any reading of this it does seem impossible for a missile to have come from the left side of the aircraft, and so Snezhnoe. It may also be worth pointing out that the old Yugo-Vostok Enoti was very quick at reporting MH17 with video and eyewitness reports posted directly on the group within minutes, due I guess to unusualy large number of raccoons in Snezhnoe and Torez. At that early point before it was known a civilian airliner was shot down I am certain that if a Buk had been launched from Snezhnoe it would have been seen and reported on, but nothing, not a single report of any launch or even rumors of any launch. Details like that, and the posts on MP by MSD about the VK location status by a soldier of ukrops Buk battery showing it had reached somewhere near Illovaisk by 16 July, are simply lost in a sea of disinformation and nonsense.
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    Post  Guest Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:48 pm

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=sr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnos.nl%2Fartikel%2F2062876-joustra-buk-kwam-uit-separatistengebied.html%3Fnpo_cc%3Dna%26npo_rnd%3D979466229%26npo_cc_skip_wall%3D1

    Original source: http://nos.nl/artikel/2062876-joustra-buk-kwam-uit-separatistengebied.html
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:42 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Not so easy. The Area limited by Kiev was expanded both By Almaz Antey and The Board. Path of the missile contradicts the initial assumption it came from Left Left. They show the missile crossed the axis of flight. That looks werid but makes Snezhnoe almost impossible as well. Remember who pushed for Snezhnoe to be the firing point?
    On any reading of this it does seem impossible for a missile to have come from the left side of the aircraft, and so Snezhnoe. It may also be worth pointing out that the old Yugo-Vostok Enoti was very quick at reporting MH17 with video and eyewitness reports posted directly on the group within minutes, due I guess to unusualy large number of raccoons in Snezhnoe and Torez. At that early point before it was known a civilian airliner was shot down I am certain that if a Buk had been launched from Snezhnoe it would have been seen and reported on, but nothing, not a single report of any launch or even rumors of any launch. Details like that, and the posts on MP by MSD about the VK location status by a soldier of ukrops Buk battery showing it had reached somewhere near Illovaisk by 16 July, are simply lost in a sea of disinformation and nonsense.

    Let me help you friend.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 10 983e6465-efcf-4da6-ac1c-2b4bb9f5fca2_800-8220329638

    remember who posted this? It starts by U..
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    Post  Khepesh Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:18 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    remember who posted this? It starts by U..
    I have no idea what I need to be helped with or who "U" is
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:25 pm

    Something is up here. Is Russia trying to get its Ukraine loan switched to an IMF backed one?

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russian President Vladimir Putin asked the country's Finance Minister Anton Siluanov on Tuesday to discuss an additional loan to help Ukraine repay its $3 billion debt to Russia with the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

    Russia, which purchased $3 billion in Eurobonds from Kiev in December 2013, maintains that Ukraine’s debt must be paid in full by the end of 2015.

    "Mistakes will be reduced if contacts are direct and working, aimed at solving all problems, including in the financial sector. I ask you to continue this dialogue both with partners in Kiev and our colleagues in the IMF," Putin said at a government meeting.

    On Saturday, Moscow and Kiev failed to agree on the restructuring of Ukraine’s debt to Russia.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151013/1028466269/ukraine-loan-russia-putin-imf.html#ixzz3oSwYzn20
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    Post  whir Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:47 pm

    As predicted some esoteric wording trying not to blame anyone while speculating about responsibility.
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    Post  auslander Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:07 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Something is up here. Is Russia trying to get its Ukraine loan switched to an IMF backed one?

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russian President Vladimir Putin asked the country's Finance Minister Anton Siluanov on Tuesday to discuss an additional loan to help Ukraine repay its $3 billion debt to Russia with the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

    Russia, which purchased $3 billion in Eurobonds from Kiev in December 2013, maintains that Ukraine’s debt must be paid in full by the end of 2015.

    "Mistakes will be reduced if contacts are direct and working, aimed at solving all problems, including in the financial sector. I ask you to continue this dialogue both with partners in Kiev and our colleagues in the IMF," Putin said at a government meeting.

    On Saturday, Moscow and Kiev failed to agree on the restructuring of Ukraine’s debt to Russia.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151013/1028466269/ukraine-loan-russia-putin-imf.html#ixzz3oSwYzn20

    Translation:

    Kiev stole all the money you sent to them and we need to be paid. Since you did the coup d'etat it is only fitting that you pay their loans including our loan to Ukraine. Think January, cold and gas. Think hard.
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    Post  Rodinazombie Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:17 pm

    Theres a stpry doing the rounds on russian social media right now, as of yet i cant find any official media links, but its quite interesting. Apparently, suspicion over the killing of the 'heavenly hundred' is falling on members of the party 'svoboda'.

    Something about this rings true, werent there photos or a video of the guys in the car who maidanists searched and had sniper rifles in the boot and the car turned out to be a government vehicle whose occupants are buddies of yatsenyuk and tyagnibok?

    Khepish, have you any more info on this? If you can drag up the links of the story of the video i mention above that would be great.
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    Post  Khepesh Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:21 pm

    This is an overlay of the area that the Dutch say is from where the Buk was fired from put onto the map that ukrops were presenting as where their forces were at that time. The Dutch are either deliberately lying on their own accord or lying because they are told to by Washington.
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    Post  victor1985 Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:23 pm

    They try to foul with that cars. Is the "so-so" method
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    Post  Rodinazombie Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:23 pm

    One thing that makes me wonder, why hasnt kiev produced a list of buks it had in its possession at the time of the outbreak of war, and how many of them were lost in territories controlled by rebels
    . Surely it should be quite easy for them to narrow it down to buk number x or y? Why havent they released details of these missing buks and started a search for them? For the past year and a half it seems we are looking for a phantom buk.

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