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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

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    Vann7


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    Post  Vann7 Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:28 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Yes, but that was referring to last summer before the arrival of what is no doubt a large US SIGINT team in Kiev, with access to what are probably the best intelligence gathering assets in existence. Filtered for local use of course.

    Given that knowledge and still building up their forces in the East, one has to have a deep feeling of concern about the next step. Has Kiev intentionally created a 'sacrificial' army, created in the certain knowledge that it will be slaughtered, designed to be the offering that generates a flow of money into Ukraine that can then be syphoned off for the greater good of the banksters, oligarchs and people on the inside, leaving a destitute Ukraine that can be bought for peanuts? All that is needed is a trigger.

    You are probably one of the bullshit believers that NATO can send equipment to Ukraine
    and magically decode Encrypted ,secure closed digital communications from Russia.. Only people totally disconnected with reality and the world of Computers and communications could believe in such stories..and the Bullshit stories of "chinesse hackers" or "Russian hackers" stealing secret or believe in the wikileaks or Snowden "leaks".  Nothing of that is true..
    If NATO were able to record any communication from Russia it will be unable to decode it..
    it will be similar to listening a conversation of a dialect of Chinese farmers and you knowing nothing of that language . The fact is You can have your communications as secure as you want it..

    Russia can even use something as simple as Internet , open a webpage and use that to communicate with any rebel.. anyone with access to the site ,will not know who is who ,
    what the conversation is about , and not even the origin of the information. Even if the information could be decoded.  

    How is NATO going to know if the information is reliable? if they can't trace the place from the
    communication came?

    Do you really think that every time the Defense minister of Russia needs to talk with Donetsk
    he just use any radio tell all the information needed for anyone outside the Rebels can trace his identity?

    So even if.. NATO could have alien technology to decode communications in Russia ,  that will be meaningless unless the source of the information can be confirmed. This is similar to the story of western media..that Russia "Accidentally" leaked in the media how many soldiers died and injured in the war.. it was spread in all western media and US ambassadors commented on it.. later it turned to be a hoax.. with nothing less that US top politicians backing it, it was a hacked website that wrote the whole story and later western media too the information and made news with it ,posted it as fact.



    You cannot confirm the source of any information between Donetsk ,Lugansk and Russia..
    even if you had alien technology to capture it.. Because the people who communicate will not provide its identity if he want it to be secret. How is NATO alien bullshit technology know the identity of anyone who writes an email using an anonymous account when the information comes from Russia? They can't.. they will need to contact the ISP and they provide information of the user.  if they want it to be secret. it will remain secret.. IF you cannot confirm the identity
    of the people who transmit the information ,then you have no way in hell to know if the information is real or not. it will remain Unknown conversation ,of unknown people ,so the whole thing will be pointless unless you know the identity of the people having the communication.

    This means is all Bullshit.. the story of how many Russians in Ukraine. I really doubt even Russian volunteers helping the Rebels knows that. They do not need to know such information.

    Today technology is far more advanced than decades ago.. it will be next to impossible to "intercept" any communication between Russia and the Rebels and do something useful with that. First become the information will be highly super encrypted ,and second because of the information source will be impossible to know.This is the reason why CIA exist and NGOS exist.. to get the information that technology can't get.  You can only get real secret  information.. between major powers, through insiders and spies ,not hackers.. that hear with their ears and see and pass the information to others .  Donetsk do have superior intelligence than the one kiev or NATO have.. they had real insiders working in kiev SBU.. who already Defected.. and there have to be many others spies too.. in Poroshenko Government . telling Russia whats going on there.

    Im really sick of the automatic worship non sense that always exist for any technology done by American or NATO. as if it is something untouchable and you cannot defeat it.. Look how IRAN so easily defeated Americans best Stealth Drone ,took it without firing a shot..using Russian technology. That should tell you a little about how Worthless is American best technology against Russian counter electronic defenses. if their most secret supposed to be stealth drone was captured.. then how much easier will be all others? How could the world "most powerful "nation in the world with the "most powerful technology " be so foolish and allow its best stealth technology to be captured that way? in so embarrassing way?  This only speaks Volumes of the level of incompetence in US military and is technology.. they have gone as far as to believe their own propaganda of being untouchable and unbeatable. That was the most underestimated event
    ever in the history of modern warfare.. that was worse than the shotdown of the F-117. US/NATO so called "Advanced technology" is only good against third world countries and nothing else.

     this is not mentioning how is 100% possible to develop complete secure communications for any nation , that no one ,Neither "Experts Americans" ,or Aliens, can see or listen or read any way ,shape or form. Using electronic equipment that is.  Something as simple a a cable physical line moving from Russia border to Donetsk and Lugansk..will totally neutralize any magical Bullshit technology designed by Americans ,to intercept communications.. there will be NOTHING to intercept ,because the communications will NOT travel in Air but through a physical medium .  It will be a physical/digital communication and you cannot intercept that ,to listen you need to have a physical connection to that line. but even if you could connect to it, it will be encrypted and secure line.. so you will need to have special hardware with insider information of how the communication is secured to be able to read it.. it will be easier for Americans to just bribe the Russian defense minister or Putin to tell them what Russia is doing or not in Ukraine than to any magical "intercept" of any communication that they really want to be secret.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:30 pm; edited 4 times in total
    ExBeobachter1987
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 31 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:51 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:

    No it didn't, nothing happened, the locals bent over and took it up the ass again. No resistance, no protests, nothing.

    Oh and there was an electrical fire in a building. The end.
    A pity you were not pissing on Odessa when the Trades Union building was blazing as it may have helped put out the flames, but now you piss on their corpses instead.

    And the people of Kursk, Belgorod, Rostov, Krasnodar, Kharkov, Donetsk, Odessa, Kiev, Minsk and countless other occupied cities should not have expected liberation by Red Army as they did not rise up against the nazis......

    These were Soviet cities. The Red Army's duty was to liberate them.
    Odessa is an Ukrainian city. It is not the duty of Russians to liberate people who support or accept Kiev's centralist rule.
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:04 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:

    No it didn't, nothing happened, the locals bent over and took it up the ass again. No resistance, no protests, nothing.

    Oh and there was an electrical fire in a building. The end.
    A pity you were not pissing on Odessa when the Trades Union building was blazing as it may have helped put out the flames, but now you piss on their corpses instead.

    And the people of Kursk, Belgorod, Rostov, Krasnodar, Kharkov, Donetsk, Odessa, Kiev, Minsk and countless other occupied cities should not have expected liberation by Red Army as they did not rise up against the nazis......

    These were Soviet cities. The Red Army's duty was to liberate them.
    Odessa is an Ukrainian city. It is not the duty of Russians to liberate people who support or accept Kiev's centralist rule.

    x123456789

    The people of the Ukraine should wash their own laundry. I'm all for Russia helping but they have to take the first step.

    I know there are volunteers from Odessa, Kharkov, etc... and Kiev too, fighting in the ranks of the NAF -and I feel sorry for them, because they are fighting not just to defend the Donbass, but to defeat the fascists and liberate their own cities. But that probably won't happen, because most of their people don't seem to be bothered enough about the oligarch-fascist illegal government to do anything about it.
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    Post  Khepesh Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:08 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

    These were Soviet cities. The Red Army's duty was to liberate them.
    Odessa is an Ukrainian city. It is not the duty of Russians to liberate people who support or accept Kiev's centralist rule.
    Odessa is a Russian city. On another forum, not the mess or MP, I created a thread to argue for Odessa being a Russian city, and over more than thirty pages I beat of all attacks on my statement, attacks by ukrops, their supporters and ignorant western Russophobes. Is it necessary to do the same on a forum that is not a cesspit of Russophobes?

    To argue against Odessa being a Russian city is to agree with the decisions of Yeltsin, Khrushchev and Lenin to break up Russia.
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:30 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:

    No it didn't, nothing happened, the locals bent over and took it up the ass again. No resistance, no protests, nothing.

    Oh and there was an electrical fire in a building. The end.
    A pity you were not pissing on Odessa when the Trades Union building was blazing as it may have helped put out the flames, but now you piss on their corpses instead.

    And the people of Kursk, Belgorod, Rostov, Krasnodar, Kharkov, Donetsk, Odessa, Kiev, Minsk and countless other occupied cities should not have expected liberation by Red Army as they did not rise up against the nazis......

    In WW2, Russians/Ukrainians/Belarussians native to those cities died in their hundreds of thousands defending them from occupation. They fought for every inch and every meter.
    Odessa was the site of a ferocious, multi-tiered defense that held up for months, resupplied by sea, in the face of a complete German-Romanian encirclement.
    Kharkov was the site of 3 separate battles, each of them epic.

    The cities which didn't resist, but in fact mostly welcomed the Nazis - Riga, Lvov, etc... bear more similarity to the complete passivity of places like Odessa today; and in fact when the Red Army liberated them - for the people living there, it wasn't a liberation, but occupation, and the overthrow of their beloved Nazis. There, as then now, Nazis patrolled the streets, along with their local enforcers, and exacted punishment on the rare soul that showed himself to be somehow sympathetic to Soviet rule. But by and large everything was pretty peaceful.
    So what makes you think Odessa might not be like that today? An exaggeration perhaps, but I think there's something to it. They might hate their government, but would they take vatniks/kolorads/katsaps/etc... in preference to them?

    Khepesh wrote:Odessa is a Russian city that has suffered de facto occupation due to the assholes Gorbachev and Yeltsin and should be liberated no matter the actions or inactions of the population. That the citizens of Odessa, after having suffered a massacre and intense pressure from SBU, have not risen is not an excuse to insult them and to let them remain occupied. Again, did the cities of the Soviet Union occupied by the nazis not deserve liberation because they did not rise? Should the western border of Russia be on a line from Saint Petersburg, Voronezh, Volgograd because the cities west of that line did not rise?

    Ain't that something like what the Ukrainians are doing?
    "We'll liberate you from those Russian terrorists whether you want it or not and even if we have to kill all of you to do it!"

    Let's not decide for people, what is or what isn't best for them.
    If they don't want to fight for their land, maybe they have no reason to. I mean one way or the other, if they really hated the regime, they would fight it, they would find a way, even if half the able-bodied men there fled to the Donbass to take up arms there.
    But instead they just want to ride it out, perhaps? 'Riding it out' is by itself proof that they are willing to tolerate the regime and what it's doing, and see it as nothing worse than just a bad government really. But their government, and one that they will 'vote out' next elections. Nothing to see here, etc...

    You're right, it's not right to insult them. They made their choice and their choice should be respected by us.

    Khepesh wrote:There was no leadership and they cannot be blamed for that. To create an uprising, a pre-existing structure under a strong leader needs to be in place, or able to move to were needed. There was only one Strelkov with a pre-existing structure around him, yet he, or somebody like him, was needed in Odessa, Kharkov and Mariupol. People simply will not rise without a leader, of if they do it is as a temporary mob that is easily dealt with. Any rising needs some planning, yet there was no warning of what was to come, and then it was too late and potential leaders arrested or fled before the inevitable. The fact that many people thought Russia would directly intervene is also a very important factor, and who will take risks if they think there is no need.

    You have a point but the thing is that in Sevastopol there was no leadership either, but the people still got together and did something. Actually what happened in Sevastopol was a prime example of people's self-organization on the back of mass support.
    In the rest of the Crimea there was no leadership, but each day the situation destabilized more for the Kiev junta and it was obvious that they would have to move in their army if they want to maintain control.
    The Donbass took a little longer, but in fact the situation there was never stable, there were non-stop protests, the Kiev-appointed governor was run out of his own building, the regional administration was taken over several times by protesters, arriving Maidanists and Pravyj Sektor were confronted and beaten by mobs of people, etc... and actually Strelkov wasn't the first one to take up arms either. It was actually armed Cossacks who seized the upper floors of the Lugansk and Donetsk administrations, meanwhile protesters set up barricades around these buildings, and also stormed police and SBU headquarters.
    Then we saw armed men in Slavyansk, and not Strelkov's men first either. He himself only showed up a few days after that.
    Actually, back in March and early April, before the armed uprising, there were more than enough videos on Youtube, showing masked men with weapons, vowing to liberate the Donbass from the illegal government. Mozgovoj also made put up some videos; in his he was unmasked and in plain sight.

    As you can see, there was a huge amount of grassroots resistance to the illegal Kiev government, both in the Crimea and in the Donbass. And this, is from where the organization built up from, once the separate, disaffected elements started to pool their efforts and establish a plan of action.

    Point is, imagine any Russian city. Now image there is no government, no police, no army there. Then lets put that city on the territory of the Ukraine (but with its current inhabitants, completely hostile to any prospect of fascist Ukrainian rule and rightly so), with the Ukrainian government trying to assert control in that city. How far do you think they'll get?


    Last edited by flamming_python on Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 31 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  flamming_python Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:36 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

    These were Soviet cities. The Red Army's duty was to liberate them.
    Odessa is an Ukrainian city. It is not the duty of Russians to liberate people who support or accept Kiev's centralist rule.
    Odessa is a Russian city. On another forum, not the mess or MP, I created a thread to argue for Odessa being a Russian city, and over more than thirty pages I beat of all attacks on my statement, attacks by ukrops, their supporters and ignorant western Russophobes. Is it necessary to do the same on a forum that is not a cesspit of Russophobes?

    To argue against Odessa being a Russian city is to agree with the decisions of Yeltsin, Khrushchev and Lenin to break up Russia.

    Yeah I thought it was a Russian city too, albeit I never questioned it being a Ukrainian city in terms of territory; it was certainly a Russian city in terms of history/language/culture/etc...

    But the difference I can see between 'Russian cities' such as Kharkov and Odessa, and Russian cities such as Sevastopol, Donetsk, Lugansk, etc... is stark and I have little explanation than just to say that perhaps Kharkov and Odessa are not the cities they once were. Times change, people migrate, mentalities change. It may remain a Russian city on the surface, Russian may still be spoken there predominantly, etc... but deep down, it's soul has changed - people see their destinies separate from Russia, and tied to instead a Russia-hating state whose only objective is integration with Europe and American military bases.

    This is not something unheard of - Kiev itself went through the same transformation and the result is before our eyes. The city was thought of as 'the mother of all Russian cities', Russian language was absolutely dominant there, etc...
    And now look at it, many young-generation Russian speakers are purposely talking among themselves in Ukrainian, trying to de-Russify themselves, many migrants have moved in from Western Ukraine, etc... the city barely even celebrates Victory Day anymore. Everything is about being 'European', whatever that means.
    Give it a decade and Odessa and Kharkov will adopt the same trend. By then, Kiev would be mostly Ukrainian-speaking, and I don't even know how Ukrainian the already Ukrainian cities would be.
    Ukraininism has been compared to a virus in Novorussian message boards. Although I think that this is a de-humanizing way of putting it, there is something to it. Once Ukrainization takes hold, you won't stop it, it will just keep spreading until assimilation is complete.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:07 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  Neutrality Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:39 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    There was no leadership and they cannot be blamed for that. To create an uprising, a pre-existing structure under a strong leader needs to be in place, or able to move to were needed. There was only one Strelkov with a pre-existing structure around him, yet he, or somebody like him, was needed in Odessa, Kharkov and Mariupol. People simply will not rise without a leader, of if they do it is as a temporary mob that is easily dealt with. Any rising needs some planning, yet there was no warning of what was to come, and then it was too late and potential leaders arrested or fled before the inevitable. The fact that many people thought Russia would directly intervene is also a very important factor, and who will take risks if they think there is no need.

    Any big uprising produces leaders. Who organized the anti-Maidan wave in Odessa? Someone must have organized it otherwise no one would come out on the streets. When those people were burned up that should have triggered other mass protests in across the entire oblast. Leadership is only a matter of time when a massive amount of people are on the street. Take Givi and Motorola. These guys are perfect examples when massive movements happen.
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    Post  Guest Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:45 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:

    No it didn't, nothing happened, the locals bent over and took it up the ass again. No resistance, no protests, nothing.

    Oh and there was an electrical fire in a building. The end.
    A pity you were not pissing on Odessa when the Trades Union building was blazing as it may have helped put out the flames, but now you piss on their corpses instead.

    And the people of Kursk, Belgorod, Rostov, Krasnodar, Kharkov, Donetsk, Odessa, Kiev, Minsk and countless other occupied cities should not have expected liberation by Red Army as they did not rise up against the nazis......

    These were Soviet cities. The Red Army's duty was to liberate them.
    Odessa is an Ukrainian city. It is not the duty of Russians to liberate people who support or accept Kiev's centralist rule.
    More of a Jewish/Russian city than a Ukrainian city to be completely honest. Again those people have way too much to lose and I completely understand why they are quiet. The evil fascists who set 50 people on fire still walk free today and are even encouraged to pursue their agenda forward. There will never be any justice for the Odessa victims in the current political climate in the country and nobody is going to say a word when the Nazis club any suspected pro-Russian they can get. If I were in their position, my priority would be to make sure my family and friends are safe. I would not go on a personal fight for my political beliefs if that meant potentially endangering loved ones. Good people are not going to gather together to try to do anything either. In a country as bent as Ukraine, who can you trust?
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:47 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:
    There was no leadership and they cannot be blamed for that. To create an uprising, a pre-existing structure under a strong leader needs to be in place, or able to move to were needed. There was only one Strelkov with a pre-existing structure around him, yet he, or somebody like him, was needed in Odessa, Kharkov and Mariupol. People simply will not rise without a leader, of if they do it is as a temporary mob that is easily dealt with. Any rising needs some planning, yet there was no warning of what was to come, and then it was too late and potential leaders arrested or fled before the inevitable. The fact that many people thought Russia would directly intervene is also a very important factor, and who will take risks if they think there is no need.

    Any big uprising produces leaders. Who organized the anti-Maidan wave in Odessa? Someone must have organized it otherwise no one would come out on the streets. When those people were burned up that should have triggered other mass protests in across the entire oblast. Leadership is only a matter of time when a massive amount of people are on the street. Take Givi and Motorola. These guys are perfect examples when massive movements happen.

    There certainly were leaders in Odessa, and leadership structures. They were all mostly killed in the Trade House fire, but there were ones after that too - who were arrested and locked up.
    Most recently the People's Governor of Bessarabia was kidnapped by the SBU a month or two ago (dunno if she's been released now, or charged).

    No-one came to their aid, they all just looked on and observed. No-one blocked the SBU trucks with logs and barricades. No-one stormed local SBU headquarters to free them.
    Yet this all did happen in Donetsk/Lugansk back in March and early April. Why?
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:55 pm

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:

    No it didn't, nothing happened, the locals bent over and took it up the ass again. No resistance, no protests, nothing.

    Oh and there was an electrical fire in a building. The end.
    A pity you were not pissing on Odessa when the Trades Union building was blazing as it may have helped put out the flames, but now you piss on their corpses instead.

    And the people of Kursk, Belgorod, Rostov, Krasnodar, Kharkov, Donetsk, Odessa, Kiev, Minsk and countless other occupied cities should not have expected liberation by Red Army as they did not rise up against the nazis......

    These were Soviet cities. The Red Army's duty was to liberate them.
    Odessa is an Ukrainian city. It is not the duty of Russians to liberate people who support or accept Kiev's centralist rule.
    More of a Jewish/Russian city than a Ukrainian city to be completely honest. Again those people have way too much to lose and I completely understand why they are quiet. The evil fascists who set 50 people on fire still walk free today and are even encouraged to pursue their agenda forward. There will never be any justice for the Odessa victims in the current political climate in the country and nobody is going to say a word when the Nazis club any suspected pro-Russian they can get. If I were in their position, my priority would be to make sure my family and friends are safe. I would not go on a personal fight for my political beliefs if that meant potentially endangering loved ones. Good people are not going to gather together to try to do anything either. In a country as bent as Ukraine, who can you trust?

    Jews have all but vacated it back int he 90s both physically and mentally; they could care less about that city now. Many of the people that have moved in in their wake are Raguls from the west, who now call themselves 'Odessites' and for whom the most important value is not democracy, humanism or anything like that, but the Ukrainian flag and Ukrainian 'glory'.
    But you know what, they might as well be. Jews in their time also migrated to this city. Russians weren't here since time immemorial either.

    I would never advocate ethnic cleansing or anything like that. Even if there are people whose views of the world are completely at odds with or hostile to my own, they have just as much a right to their current homes, and to life as I do.
    It's not right to impose a minority's view on the majority. Therefore if the current majority, regardless of what yesterday's or last centuries' majority says about it - decides on something; like for collaborating with the Kiev junta for the sake of their own jobs/livelyhood, than so be it.
    Just don't come running to us asking for liberation later.
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    Post  Khepesh Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:13 pm

    It's late, and as there is a lot to respond to I will do it later.
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:24 pm

    Khepesh wrote:It's late, and as there is a lot to respond to I will do it later.

    Watch out, you might wake up Ukrainian What a Face
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    Post  SturmGuard Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:34 pm

    Why are we sticking to Odessa in particular?

    In a mere hundred years, cities where Velikorossy were once the largest ethnic group (free expression, lived right next to Malorossy) have become strongholds of Ukrainian nationalism. Do you all realise that Rusyns that resettled in Pannonia kept their identity, while their relatives in homeland didn't?

    You can't turn the tide of history. Modern Ukrainians and their ancestory have willingly adopted their identity, and dropped their historical ones (be it Rusyns, Galicians, Malorossy, Velikorossy etc.). Just compare how radically different Rostov or Kuban have turned out from Lugansk/Donetsk/Mariupol etc. And all it took for this once very homogenous area is a single, simbolic line drawn "for administrative purposes only". Look at the example of Belarus/Ukraine border areas. Those people can't be so different historically, yet one side of the border hates Russia, one doesn't.


    What can be said then of the Reds in revolution? You are quick to condemn UkrOps, yet the Reds were far worse when it comes to dealing with Russians, Russian identity. Entire generations of Russians can be branded as traitors and turncoats then, taking the same line of reasoning as you are.


    Let them have their fake "ethnonationalism", let them hate their past and fabricate it. It never did anything good for anyone. The disaster (economy, demography...) that has beset their country from the moment it became independent is not coincidental. It is the result of irreconcilable differences and mind-boggling schizophrenia in their minds.


    Another thing, look how cowardly and passive the population has become. More than a million people (many among them men fit for combat) have decided not to be part of the fight by simply fleeing and abandoning the area. A country of ~40 million, reportedly under foreign invasion, somehow has huge problems with finding at least 50-100 000 willing volunteers. And the best of it all, the most loud, verbally aggresive, most prominent "Patriots" are safe and sound holding their Ultras marches, paramilitary and torch parades, chanting sessions some distance from actual combat. Yep. They are fake, all of them.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 31 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Cowboy's daughter Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:31 am

    SturmGuard wrote:Why are we sticking to Odessa in particular?

    In a mere hundred years, cities where Velikorossy were once the largest ethnic group (free expression, lived right next to Malorossy) have become strongholds of Ukrainian nationalism. Do you all realise that Rusyns that resettled in Pannonia kept their identity, while their relatives in homeland didn't?

    You can't turn the tide of history. Modern Ukrainians and their ancestory have willingly adopted their identity, and dropped their historical ones (be it Rusyns, Galicians, Malorossy, Velikorossy etc.). Just compare how radically different Rostov or Kuban have turned out from Lugansk/Donetsk/Mariupol etc. And all it took for this once very homogenous area is a single, simbolic line drawn "for administrative purposes only". Look at the example of Belarus/Ukraine border areas. Those people can't be so different historically, yet one side of the border hates Russia, one doesn't.


    What can be said then of the Reds in revolution? You are quick to condemn UkrOps, yet the Reds were far worse when it comes to dealing with Russians, Russian identity. Entire generations of Russians can be branded as traitors and turncoats then, taking the same line of reasoning as you are.


    Let them have their fake "ethnonationalism", let them hate their past and fabricate it. It never did anything good for anyone. The disaster (economy, demography...) that has beset their country from the moment it became independent is not coincidental. It is the result of irreconcilable differences and mind-boggling schizophrenia in their minds.


    Another thing, look how cowardly and passive the population has become. More than a million people (many among them men fit for combat) have decided not to be part of the fight by simply fleeing and abandoning the area. A country of ~40 million, reportedly under foreign invasion, somehow has huge problems with finding at least 50-100 000 willing volunteers. And the best of it all, the most loud, verbally aggresive, most prominent "Patriots" are safe and sound holding their Ultras marches, paramilitary and torch parades, chanting sessions some distance from actual combat. Yep. They are fake, all of them.

    Not that I claim to know anything about anything, but I think that's a really really good post.
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:34 am

    fellow party member Igor Mosiychuk was at the burning Odessa Trades Union building, correct? Thoughts anyone??


    Ukraine’s Prosecutor-General’s Office opens criminal case against leader of Radical Party
    World
    August 29, 22:52 UTC+3
    The Radical Party claimed that their leader is accused of organizing a criminal group, kidnapping, unlawful deprivation of liberty and torture

    http://tass.ru/en/world/817402



    KIEV, August 29. /TASS/. The Ukrainian Prosecutor-General’s Office has opened "new criminal cases" against leader of Ukraine’s Radical Party Oleg Lyashko, his fellow party member Igor Mosiychuk wrote on Facebook on Saturday, adding that criminal proceedings had been opened against him as well.

    "Yesterday it became known that the Prosecutor-General’s Office had opened new criminal cases against me and leader of the Radical Party Oleg Lyashko", Mosiychuk wrote. He noted that "this time Shokin [Ukraine’s Prosecutor-General Viktor Shokin] and all hands accuse us of organizing a criminal group, kidnapping people, illegal deprivation of freedom and torture."

    "A report on us was scribbled by former commander the Aidar battalion Sergey Malnichuk", Mosiychuk added. According to him, the criminal cases against him and Lyashko were related to the detention of Mayor of the city of Stakhanov Yury Borisov in July 2014 on suspicion of collaboration with separatists, in particular, in the organization and financing of the referendum on the establishment of the Lugansk People’s Republic (LPR).

    He noted that Melnichuk "concluded an agreement with Prosecutor-General Shokin and, to avoid legal responsibility in connection with his own criminal case (Melnichuk is accused of establishing a criminal organization), wrote a report under the orders of investigators."

    Mosiychuk also said that Melnichuk "on the instruction of President Pyotr Poroshenko continued to fabricate criminal cases" against those who refuse to vote for the amendments to the Ukrainian Constitution on decentralization.
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:37 am


    Ivan Katchanovski
    18 hrs · Edited ·


    The party of power has been created in Ukraine as a result of an official merger of the Poroshenko Bloc and Klychko's UDAR party and a reported recent secret merger of Yatseniuk's People's Front with the Poroshenko Bloc. Yatseniuk de facto corroborated this secret merger by announcing that his party, which won the parliamentary elections a year ago, would not run in the local elections in October 2015. There have been unconfirmed reports that Tymoshenko's Fatherland and the Opposition Bloc were secretly negotiating similar deals with Poroshenko.

    http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/3556411-vytalyi-klychko-vozghlavyl-partyui-poroshenko
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    Post  BKP Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:44 am

    ^ Pretty epic section of argument up there, kudos. Sadly, I largely agree with Flaming. The Odessa massacre was such an outrage that it should have provided more than enough tinder to fuel a general popular uprising in that area. And by that I mean an uprising that would be very difficult or impossible for the Ukes to put down, and require a massive amount of lying and obfuscating on the part of the Western MSM to cover up it's nature. Or, how about some substantial partisan activity at least (Western press would call it "terrorism")?

    Well none of that happened. IMO, we are forced to conclude that the reason is that the population was simply not sufficiently motivated to do so. Sure, some were, as was pointed out. But, it wasn't nearly enough. This begs an obvious question; why should Russians, or anyone, feel more compelled to overthrow that situation than the locals themselves?

    I say fuck that. Let the Russians continue to build their productive alliances, economy and military potential. Why expend any part of that potential for those who would not be grateful for it? And the latter, it seems clear, is one possible outcome Washington would be quite happy with.

    Hopefully Russia will not do that. I would prefer to see it continue dismantling the levers of Western influence and threat that were allowed to develop within Russia itself in the recent past. I'd like to see it keep developing Crimea like gangbusters so it will stand in stark contrast to the psycho fiefdom the rest of Ukraine now is.

    If/when the Ukes restart the fireworks in Donbass, Russia should call NATO's bluff and lend enough support to the people there, the ones who did rise up and fight, to go all the way this time and free the rest of their lands. But the outlying areas look like a lost cause to me. Let them live with the consequences of their preferences. I think the fat man was right in one recent statement; the Ukes are no "brothers" of the Russian people.


    Last edited by BKP on Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:31 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Carified a statement)
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    Post  BKP Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:56 am

    Cowboy's daughter wrote:
    Ivan Katchanovski
    18 hrs · Edited ·


    The party of power has been created in Ukraine as a result of an official merger of the Poroshenko Bloc and Klychko's UDAR party and a reported recent secret merger of Yatseniuk's People's Front with the Poroshenko Bloc. Yatseniuk de facto corroborated this secret merger by announcing that his party, which won the parliamentary elections a year ago, would not run in the local elections in October 2015. There have been unconfirmed reports that Tymoshenko's Fatherland and the Opposition Bloc were secretly negotiating similar deals with Poroshenko.

    http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/3556411-vytalyi-klychko-vozghlavyl-partyui-poroshenko

    Lol, seems every douche in the VR has made a "secret" pact with the remaining douches. They must like feeling sneaky, because it seems otherwise pointless. Rolling Eyes lol1
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    Post  Erk Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:52 am

    BKP wrote:^ Pretty epic section of argument up there, kudos. Sadly, I largely agree with Flaming. The Odessa massacre was such an outrage that it should have provided more than enough tinder to fuel a general popular uprising in that area. And by that I mean an uprising that would be very difficult or impossible for the Ukes to put down, and require a massive amount of lying and obfuscating on the part of the Western MSM to cover up it's nature. Or, how about some substantial partisan activity at least (Western press would call it "terrorism")?

    A key difference is that Odessa is not being shelled by Kiev. The shelling is what has caused most of the towns in DPR/LPR to break away from Kiev rule.

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    Post  BKP Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:24 am

    Erk wrote:
    BKP wrote:^ Pretty epic section of argument up there, kudos. Sadly, I largely agree with Flaming. The Odessa massacre was such an outrage that it should have provided more than enough tinder to fuel a general popular uprising in that area. And by that I mean an uprising that would be very difficult or impossible for the Ukes to put down, and require a massive amount of lying and obfuscating on the part of the Western MSM to cover up it's nature. Or, how about some substantial partisan activity at least (Western press would call it "terrorism")?

    A key difference is that Odessa is not being shelled by Kiev. The shelling is what has caused most of the towns in DPR/LPR to break away from Kiev rule.


    Did shelling bring the rebellion or did rebellion bring the shelling? I say the latter.
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    Post  higurashihougi Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:40 am

    Cowboy's daughter wrote:fellow party member Igor Mosiychuk was at the burning Odessa Trades Union building, correct? Thoughts anyone??

    Ukraine’s Prosecutor-General’s Office opens criminal case against leader of Radical Party
    World
    August 29, 22:52 UTC+3
    The Radical Party claimed that their leader is accused of organizing a criminal group, kidnapping, unlawful deprivation of liberty and torture

    http://tass.ru/en/world/817402

    The maidanist beasts are killing each other in the stuggle for power.

    Something very similar to South Vietnam in 1955-1965.
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    Post  higurashihougi Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:42 am

    22 brigades is about 110.000 troops and 12 brigades is about 60.000 troops isn't it ?

    Mobilization wave 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th.........

    http://tass.ru/en/world/816409

    Kiev reorganizes 22 military brigades in Donbas, plans to create 12 more

    "Legislatively the strength of Ukraine’s army has been set at 250,000. In the east of Ukraine the required defense groups have been deployed. The 22 existing brigades have been reorganized and twelve new brigades are about to be formed. Under state defense contracts the army has received more than 1,300 pieces of military equipment," Kushnir said. The Defense Ministry has created a center for development and material support for the Ukrainian armed forces.
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:13 am

    BKP wrote:I think the fat man was right in one recent statement; the Ukes are no "brothers" of the Russian people.

    They are brothers, but the kind of brothers who steal your money and show you no respect.
    It is better to separate from them.
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    Post  Erk Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:08 am

    BKP wrote:
    Erk wrote:
    BKP wrote:^ Pretty epic section of argument up there, kudos. Sadly, I largely agree with Flaming. The Odessa massacre was such an outrage that it should have provided more than enough tinder to fuel a general popular uprising in that area. And by that I mean an uprising that would be very difficult or impossible for the Ukes to put down, and require a massive amount of lying and obfuscating on the part of the Western MSM to cover up it's nature. Or, how about some substantial partisan activity at least (Western press would call it "terrorism")?

    A key difference is that Odessa is not being shelled by Kiev. The shelling is what has caused most of the towns in DPR/LPR to break away from Kiev rule.


    Did shelling bring the rebellion or did rebellion bring the shelling? I say the latter.

    It's not linear, the rebellion was tiny until the shelling from Kiev started. The siege of Sloviansk was the turning point. That was when the Kiev wanted to ethnic cleanse the town so the shale oil rigs could move in. That's what motivated DPR/LPR into start building up fully fledged armies.
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    Post  Werewolf Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:15 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    BKP wrote:I think the fat man was right in one recent statement; the Ukes are no "brothers" of the Russian people.

    They are brothers, but the kind of brothers who steal your money and show you no respect.
    It is better to separate from them.

    That is just the current state after the US has influenced and brainwashed the younger generations over 23 years of them being some artifical indigenous folk of their own which calls all their people "Atborderliving"  not even like all true countries when you say i move to or in a country for ukraine till this very day it says i drive at ukraine or on ukraine, because it is a border not a country and that is its name "Attheborder".

    I was never really for panslavism untill that point that i realized that all slavs are brainwashed by the west to feel bad and become hostile towards russians, so all slavs are balcanized for the purpose of better conquering and control of US and that must be stopped at all cost. I am for sezession of countries and that means pan germanism, pan slavism, pan-turkism and pan-sinoism. As long those countries stay strong and united it will be harder for any country to impose their will above others. Balcanization is very bad for unipolar world and i think that is a better way than the current situation were every country is terrorized by the fat guy who calls himself the best at everything with his very high tendencies towards violance and supremacy believes.

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