Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 8022
    Points : 8105
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:15 pm

    Make what you will of what the leaders said after the meeting in Berlin

    BERLIN, August 24. /TASS/. France and Germany have listened to the Ukrainian vision of the situation in the Donbas region, but contacts with the Russian president on the issue are necessary, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said in Berlin on Monday following talks with Presidents of France and Ukraine Francois Hollande and Petro Poroshenko.

    "We discussed many issues today", we listened to the stance on them "from the Ukrainian angle," the chancellor said. "We will also resume contacts with the Russian president. I do not rule out that a four-party meeting will take place," Merkel noted. According to the German leader, there are differences of opinion on Ukraine between the West and Russia which "should be necessarily settled." Merkel stressed that ceasefire agreements reached in Minsk, Belarus, in February, were fundamental to peace in Ukraine and they should not be called into question. International observers from European security watchdog OSCE should continue monitoring the ceasefire in the country’s east, she added.
    France’s Hollande calls for new meetings to resolve situation in east Ukraine

    French President Francois Hollande on Monday pointed to the need for new meetings to resolve the situation in eastern Ukraine, including talks in the so-called "Normandy format" between leaders and foreign ministry officials from Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France. Hollande stressed it was necessary to move to peace in eastern Ukraine on the basis of ceasefire agreements reached in Minsk, Belarus, in February.

    Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko after the meeting said he considers the Minsk process to be a universal tool for achieving peace in Donbas. "I will repeat once again - there is no alternative to the Minsk process. We confirm it now. The Minsk process is an absolutely universal tool, it’s ceasefire, withdrawal of heavy equipment and artillery, ensuring full release of prisoners, access of OSCE to monitoring these processes," Poroshenko said. According to him, all issues can be resolved within the framework of the Minsk and Normandy formats. "We do not need new formats, we have the Minsk and Normandy ones. I am prepared to discuss new formats, but we believe the basic format is the Normandy one, which has proved its efficiency," he said.

    Kiev "consistently implements the Minsk agreements, including on the humanitarian issues, on ceasefire, on the OSCE, and on the establishment of humanitarian centers in the coming months," Poroshenko said. He noted that during the meeting the parties discussed the issue of access of monitors to the border to an uncontrolled territory, elections in Donbas, "which threaten the Minsk process." The leaders of the three countries "discussed the energy issues, the tripartite cooperation between Ukraine, the European Union and Russia on the issue of gas transit through Ukraine to ensure its uninterrupted supply," Poroshenko said. "I hope that the result will be de-escalation, local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation under the supervision of the OSCE," he said. Poroshenko confirms creation of humanitarian logistics centers in eastern Ukraine

    The Ukrainian president confirmed that three humanitarian logistics centers will be set up in the Kiev-controlled territories in Ukraine’s Donetsk and Luhansk regions by late August. "I have ordered to set up three humanitarian logistics centers by the end of the month," Poroshenko said.



    Then there is the Sputnik take on it, note the lack of a quote from Poro.

    The leaders of Germany, France and Ukraine agreed at the meeting in Berlin on Monday to proceed the work on the implementation of the Minsk agreements, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said at a news briefing in the German capital.

    BERLIN (Sputnik) — The German chancellor said that the meeting was aimed at supporting the Minsk agreements, which are the basis for Ukrainian crisis settlement. "We met to support Minsk-2, not to put it in doubt," German Chancellor Angela Merkel said at a news briefing following talks with the presidents of France and Ukraine. Merkel said that the participants of the meeting in Berlin would inform Russian President Vladimir Putin about results of talks either by phone or in person. The German Chancellor added that the sides would hold additional consultations with Russia on ensuring the work of the OSCE monitors in Ukraine since their presence there was "Alpha and Omega of a successful settlement" of the Ukrainian crisis.

    The Minsk agreements still are not fully implemented, French President Francois Hollande said at the news briefing. "Now, for us there is only one rule – respect of the Minsk agreements. In regard to the ceasefire, they are still not fully observed," Hollande said. New meetings, including those in the Normandy format are needed to resolve the Ukrainian crisis, the French president added.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150824/1026141603.html#ixzz3jl3aJAmP


    Last edited by JohninMK on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Second item added)
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4615
    Points : 4719
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:35 pm

    You cannot expect Minsk-2 to be implemented ,when Poroshenko continues to receive
    support from the IMF for its war and and Americans / Baltics and Poland continues to cheerlead
    them into their criminal war..  The way out for peace is not Minsk-2.. But the EU to threaten
    the Americans to lift sanctions on Russia and create an economic alliance with Russia if they and just suggest the possibility of leaving NATO if they continue with the proxy war against Russia in
    Ukraine.  Is simple and effective..  It is far better that Europe gets in an economic recession from
    divorcing from USA ,that a world war 3 ,that could escalate with nuclear weapons ,with no economy left to save.. however this ultimatums to americans if ever happens.. will not be made public.. Only when western media and US president start telling the truth about of Ukraine is when you will know there is a real change of Policy.

    The Americans will capitulate in Ukraine ,if Europe Unites and take a hard stance against
    the illegality of Kiev war against their own people ..and they give an ultimatum to Americans
    that they will lose their economic and military alliance with them if continue sponsoring the violence in Ukraine.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Flagship Victory
    Flagship Victory

    Posts : 973
    Points : 921
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Flagship Victory on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:42 pm

    Vann7 wrote:You cannot expect Minsk-2 to be implemented ,when Poroshenko continues to receive
    support from the IMF for its war and and Americans / Baltics and Poland continues to cheerlead
    them into their criminal war..  The way out for peace is not Minsk-2.. But the EU to threaten
    the Americans to lift sanctions on Russia and create an economic alliance with Russia if they and just suggest the possibility of leaving NATO if they continue with the proxy war against Russia in
    Ukraine.  Is simple and effective..  It is far better that Europe gets in an economic recession from
    divorcing from USA ,that a world war 3 ,that could escalate with nuclear weapons ,with no economy left to save..

    The Americans will capitulate in Ukraine ,if Europe Unites and take a hard stance against
    the illegality of Kiev war against their own people ..and they give an ultimatum to Americans
    that they will lose their economic and military alliance with them if continue sponsoring the violence in Ukraine.

    That's right. Zackarchenko will never hold local elections along with the rest of Ukraine on October 25. Minsk 2 dies in October that's for sure.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 4085
    Points : 4169
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:03 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:

    Some nice ukrainian democratic patriots espousing european values again by fending off another attack by the russian hordes.

    Translation: scumbag ukie patriots beating up a man just because he is wearing a shirt with 'USSR' on it.

    Btw, why the hell is it so difficult to post on this site? Im fed up of writing posts to find that the 'send' button doesnt work.

    3 battles for Kharkov in WW2, hundreds of thousands of Red Army dead.

    And now some fascist apes run around the city and beat people wearing Soviet symbology. They don't even speak Russian, they are imported banderovite scum.

    The city has been overtaken by the Unclean, and should be purged with fire.

    But on second thoughts, why bother.

    I don't blame the Nazis, they're just doing what Nazis do best, can't blame an animal, even a banderovite one, for acting according to its instincts.
    Who I really blame are the Kharkov population, the same ones whose ancestors died to free the city from the Nazis.
    If their ancestors saw them now, if they could only see them now - they would spit on them; and so would I.
    Cowards, the lot of them. Working at the factories, building T-64s for the Great Hohol Army, probably being forced to scream 'Slava Ukraine!' so much now that they've accepted the slogan as their very own. They've willingly become brainwashed into Ukr propaganda by now, justifying their collaboration with their new found faux patriotism and artifical hatred against their 'sep' neighbours in the Donbass who had the balls to stand up and fight while they didn't. In their hearts they know it is a lie, but they cling to it anyway; the alternative is to face the truth - that they are cowards, and a disgrace to their forebears. They can't face it, the mirror stares back at them, and it shames them.

    And some people think that the VSN should sacrifice their men to liberate someone. They made their choice - let them rot
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 8022
    Points : 8105
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:18 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    I don't blame the Nazis, they're just doing what Nazis do best, can't blame an animal, even a banderovite one, for acting according to its instincts.
    Who I really blame are the Kharkov population, the same ones whose ancestors died to free the city from the Nazis.
    If their ancestors saw them now, if they could only see them now - they would spit on them; and so would I.
    Cowards, the lot of them. Working at the factories, building T-64s for the Great Hohol Army, probably being forced to scream 'Slava Ukraine!' so much now that they've accepted the slogan as their very own. They've willingly become brainwashed into Ukr propaganda by now, justifying their collaboration with their new found faux patriotism and artifical hatred against their 'sep' neighbours in the Donbass who had the balls to stand up and fight while they didn't. In their hearts they know it is a lie, but they cling to it anyway; the alternative is to face the truth - that they are cowards, and a disgrace to their forebears. They can't face it, the mirror stares back at them, and it shames them.

    And some people think that the VSN should sacrifice their men to liberate someone. They made their choice - let them rot
    Maybe the appalling reliability that seems to afflict some of the military products coming out of Kharkov is no accident. Bit like the slave labourers in WW2 not fitting fuses properly. No doubt the SBU is already onto it.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 4085
    Points : 4169
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:21 pm

    pdouble post


    Last edited by flamming_python on Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:38 pm; edited 3 times in total
    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4170
    Points : 4187
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:34 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote:

    Some nice ukrainian democratic patriots espousing european values again by fending off another attack by the russian hordes.

    Translation: scumbag ukie patriots beating up a man just because he is wearing a shirt with 'USSR' on it.

    Btw, why the hell is it so difficult to post on this site? Im fed up of writing posts to find that the 'send' button doesnt work.

    3 battles for Kharkov in WW2, hundreds of thousands of Red Army dead.

    And now some fascist apes run around the city and beat people wearing Soviet symbology. They don't even speak Russian, they are imported banderovite scum.

    The city has been overtaken by the Unclean, and should be purged with fire.

    But on second thoughts, why bother.

    I don't blame the Nazis, they're just doing what Nazis do best, can't blame an animal, even a banderovite one, for acting according to its instincts.
    Who I really blame are the Kharkov population, the same ones whose ancestors died to free the city from the Nazis.
    If their ancestors saw them now, if they could only see them now - they would spit on them; and so would I.
    Cowards, the lot of them. Working at the factories, building T-64s for the Great Hohol Army, probably being forced to scream 'Slava Ukraine!' so much now that they've accepted the slogan as their very own. They've willingly become brainwashed into Ukr propaganda by now, justifying their collaboration with their new found faux patriotism and artifical hatred against their 'sep' neighbours in the Donbass who had the balls to stand up and fight while they didn't. In their hearts they know it is a lie, but they cling to it anyway; the alternative is to face the truth - that they are cowards, and a disgrace to their forebears. They can't face it, the mirror stares back at them, and it shames them.

    And some people think that the VSN should sacrifice their men to liberate someone. They made their choice - let them rot

    Well liberating them from the burden of life is in order here...
    avatar
    Guest
    Guest

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Guest on Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:38 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote:

    Some nice ukrainian democratic patriots espousing european values again by fending off another attack by the russian hordes.

    Translation: scumbag ukie patriots beating up a man just because he is wearing a shirt with 'USSR' on it.

    Btw, why the hell is it so difficult to post on this site? Im fed up of writing posts to find that the 'send' button doesnt work.

    3 battles for Kharkov in WW2, hundreds of thousands of Red Army dead.

    And now some fascist apes run around the city and beat people wearing Soviet symbology. They don't even speak Russian, they are imported banderovite scum.

    The city has been overtaken by the Unclean, and should be purged with fire.

    But on second thoughts, why bother.

    I don't blame the Nazis, they're just doing what Nazis do best, can't blame an animal, even a banderovite one, for acting according to its instincts.
    Who I really blame are the Kharkov population, the same ones whose ancestors died to free the city from the Nazis.
    If their ancestors saw them now, if they could only see them now - they would spit on them; and so would I.
    Cowards, the lot of them. Working at the factories, building T-64s for the Great Hohol Army, probably being forced to scream 'Slava Ukraine!' so much now that they've accepted the slogan as their very own. They've willingly become brainwashed into Ukr propaganda by now, justifying their collaboration with their new found faux patriotism and artifical hatred against their 'sep' neighbours in the Donbass who had the balls to stand up and fight while they didn't. In their hearts they know it is a lie, but they cling to it anyway; the alternative is to face the truth - that they are cowards, and a disgrace to their forebears. They can't face it, the mirror stares back at them, and it shames them.

    And some people think that the VSN should sacrifice their men to liberate someone. They made their choice - let them rot
    Quite a harsh thing to say. I do agree with you on some points however. Kharkov has and still is a Russian city, that won't change soon (unless concentration camps start popping up and I would not be surprised if they did now). Don't think that all the residents shouting "Heil Hitler" "Slava Ukrainia" are all locals now brainwashed. Many residents are now in positions where they can't get out without endangering their families and friends. Life there is still hard and if they do something out of the party line it could get a lot worse for them personally.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9739
    Points : 9821
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:04 pm

    flamming_python wrote:...........................................

    3 battles for Kharkov in WW2, hundreds of thousands of Red Army dead.

    And now some fascist apes run around the city and beat people wearing Soviet symbology. They don't even speak Russian, they are imported banderovite scum.

    The city has been overtaken by the Unclean, and should be purged with fire.


    .........................................

    And some people think that the VSN should sacrifice their men to liberate someone. They made their choice - let them rot

    ^^ This. thumbsup
    avatar
    SturmGuard

    Posts : 150
    Points : 155
    Join date : 2015-08-19

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  SturmGuard on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:27 pm

    flamming_python wrote:3 battles for Kharkov in WW2, hundreds of thousands of Red Army dead.

    And now some fascist apes run around the city and beat people wearing Soviet symbology. They don't even speak Russian, they are imported banderovite scum.

    The city has been overtaken by the Unclean, and should be purged with fire.

    But on second thoughts, why bother.

    I don't blame the Nazis, they're just doing what Nazis do best, can't blame an animal, even a banderovite one, for acting according to its instincts.
    Who I really blame are the Kharkov population, the same ones whose ancestors died to free the city from the Nazis.
    If their ancestors saw them now, if they could only see them now - they would spit on them; and so would I.
    Cowards, the lot of them. Working at the factories, building T-64s for the Great Hohol Army, probably being forced to scream 'Slava Ukraine!' so much now that they've accepted the slogan as their very own. They've willingly become brainwashed into Ukr propaganda by now, justifying their collaboration with their new found faux patriotism and artifical hatred against their 'sep' neighbours in the Donbass who had the balls to stand up and fight while they didn't. In their hearts they know it is a lie, but they cling to it anyway; the alternative is to face the truth - that they are cowards, and a disgrace to their forebears. They can't face it, the mirror stares back at them, and it shames them.

    And some people think that the VSN should sacrifice their men to liberate someone. They made their choice - let them rot

    One can easily go down that line... BUT let us not forget how and what would the ancestors of people that joined Bolsheviks in their not-really-hidden plan to dismantle Russia and Russian identity feel.
    The root of all the trouble that is happening in Ukraine right now lies in Bolshevik actions and ideology. A brief glimpse of demographics of present-day Ukraine prior to WW1 is all it takes.
    You aren't thinking strategically, aren't taking long-term plans and goals into consideration. The border between Belarus, Ukraine and Russia is completely illogical and unhistorical, it was drawn with a clear agenda.
    Just as western Rus' was almost completely Uniatized, it was later almost completely converted back later. Moreover, I find it hard to believe that the same people who were successfully assimilated into artificial and newly-invented identities in just a couple generations (Ruthenians/Rusyns, Galicians, Great Russians, Little Russians all into Ukrainians) won't be able to do so once again.
    With your approach to things, Russia, Russian people and identity would be long gone.


    Last edited by SturmGuard on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4170
    Points : 4187
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:36 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:3 battles for Kharkov in WW2, hundreds of thousands of Red Army dead.

    And now some fascist apes run around the city and beat people wearing Soviet symbology. They don't even speak Russian, they are imported banderovite scum.

    The city has been overtaken by the Unclean, and should be purged with fire.

    But on second thoughts, why bother.

    I don't blame the Nazis, they're just doing what Nazis do best, can't blame an animal, even a banderovite one, for acting according to its instincts.
    Who I really blame are the Kharkov population, the same ones whose ancestors died to free the city from the Nazis.
    If their ancestors saw them now, if they could only see them now - they would spit on them; and so would I.
    Cowards, the lot of them. Working at the factories, building T-64s for the Great Hohol Army, probably being forced to scream 'Slava Ukraine!' so much now that they've accepted the slogan as their very own. They've willingly become brainwashed into Ukr propaganda by now, justifying their collaboration with their new found faux patriotism and artifical hatred against their 'sep' neighbours in the Donbass who had the balls to stand up and fight while they didn't. In their hearts they know it is a lie, but they cling to it anyway; the alternative is to face the truth - that they are cowards, and a disgrace to their forebears. They can't face it, the mirror stares back at them, and it shames them.

    And some people think that the VSN should sacrifice their men to liberate someone. They made their choice - let them rot

    One can easily go down that line... BUT let us not forget how and what would the ancestors of people that joined Bolsheviks in their not-really-hidden plan to dismantle Russia and Russian identity feel.
    The root of all the trouble that is happening in Ukraine right now lies in Bolshevik actions and ideology. A brief glimpse of demographics of present-day Ukraine prior to WW1 is all it takes.
    You aren't thinking strategically, aren't taking long-term plans and goals into consideration. The border between Belarus, Ukraine and Russia is completely illogical and unhistorical, it was drawn with a clear agenda.  

    Yeah but let's not stop there. The agenda was a Homo Sovieticus, IE the "brotherly nation" stuff we hear today. The step to break down "Russian nationalism" is problematic I agree, but it also happened that the New Homo Sovieticus wasn't that far from the Russian Man. In many aspects it was better, it some it was absurd. The equivocation of border and nationality was as much a blessing as a curse. We had that in the Balkans, when things go well, those melting pots among close "relatives" are golden. You can establish real links and bonds, however when the smallest crisis strikes, it becomes an inferno.

    So let's not go too fast and too far. Soviet national engineering had many flaws, but it also established many useful tools from which we can look at the current situation. Ergo, idiots that tackle a lone guys sporting the Red Standard are utter idiots, not some kind of hyper nationalists. They will see the light when their shitty national spirit will get shattered under some other heel or boot under the guise of globalization.

    Reds are like Karma, they've been there, done that.
    avatar
    SturmGuard

    Posts : 150
    Points : 155
    Join date : 2015-08-19

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  SturmGuard on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:00 pm

    Somehow, both YU and USSR "brotherly nations" went for each others' throats. And somehow, despite the stated goal of creating "superidentity", only demographic changes were in favour of newly created political nations, at the expense of historical ones, behind borders "drawn for administrative purposes". Yeah, I don't buy it. Nothing accidental or not thought through, all part of a plan. Both Yugocommunists and Bolsheviks were esentually traitors at the start and usurpers immediatelly afterwards. They needed to secure their rule, divide et impera was a fine start, along with dismantling dangerous opposition in the form of dominant nations (danger of overthrow in case of a dominant nationalistic identity). Enough of off-topic from me.

    avatar
    Karl Haushofer

    Posts : 748
    Points : 741
    Join date : 2015-05-03

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:00 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote:

    Some nice ukrainian democratic patriots espousing european values again by fending off another attack by the russian hordes.

    Translation: scumbag ukie patriots beating up a man just because he is wearing a shirt with 'USSR' on it.

    Btw, why the hell is it so difficult to post on this site? Im fed up of writing posts to find that the 'send' button doesnt work.

    3 battles for Kharkov in WW2, hundreds of thousands of Red Army dead.

    And now some fascist apes run around the city and beat people wearing Soviet symbology. They don't even speak Russian, they are imported banderovite scum.

    The city has been overtaken by the Unclean, and should be purged with fire.

    But on second thoughts, why bother.

    I don't blame the Nazis, they're just doing what Nazis do best, can't blame an animal, even a banderovite one, for acting according to its instincts.
    Who I really blame are the Kharkov population, the same ones whose ancestors died to free the city from the Nazis.
    If their ancestors saw them now, if they could only see them now - they would spit on them; and so would I.
    Cowards, the lot of them. Working at the factories, building T-64s for the Great Hohol Army, probably being forced to scream 'Slava Ukraine!' so much now that they've accepted the slogan as their very own. They've willingly become brainwashed into Ukr propaganda by now, justifying their collaboration with their new found faux patriotism and artifical hatred against their 'sep' neighbours in the Donbass who had the balls to stand up and fight while they didn't. In their hearts they know it is a lie, but they cling to it anyway; the alternative is to face the truth - that they are cowards, and a disgrace to their forebears. They can't face it, the mirror stares back at them, and it shames them.

    And some people think that the VSN should sacrifice their men to liberate someone. They made their choice - let them rot

    My understanding is that Russians (which I think Kharkov people are) cannot act without strong central authority and command. During the critical phase in 2014 this central authority and command was formed in Donetsk but not in Kharkov. This is why Donetsk rose against Kiev and Kharkov did not. There was no leaders and no organized structures in Kharkov to make things happen. I don't think Donetsk would any different from Kharkov if Strelkov and co. did not do what they did there.

    Kharkov should have had it's own "Strelkov" 1,5 years ago.
    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4170
    Points : 4187
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:08 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:Somehow, both YU and USSR "brotherly nations" went for each others' throats. And somehow, despite the stated goal of creating "superidentity", only demographic changes were in favour of newly created political nations, at the expense of historical ones, behind borders "drawn for administrative purposes". Yeah, I don't buy it. Nothing accidental or not thought through, all part of a plan. Both Yugocommunists and Bolsheviks were esentually traitors at the start and usurpers immediatelly afterwards. They needed to secure their rule, divide et impera was a fine start, along with dismantling dangerous opposition in the form of dominant nations (danger of overthrow in case of a dominant nationalistic identity). Enough of off-topic from me.


    Which is what I said. The division had a far more broader goal than simply "destroy the old to build the new". Which demographic changes were ONLY favoring the new nations? Sending Tatars in the deep end of the Steppe was favourable? Creating interlope situations that mostly benefitted the old centres? Moscow and Kiev gained immensely vs Minsk and St Pete. The Far East had proper development politics, at the expense of the locals...I like your POV (in a way), because I know it all to well. But the reality is more complex.

    You don't secure your rule by having a gazillion new national groups. The idea was creating tripwire nations and centers of discontent, that would be exploited through a series of means. From military action to shower of money. Otherwise why destroy the very core of the division, Religion?

    Even today that's how Russia does it...However, it did completely went awry over time, I'll give you that.
    Erk
    Erk

    Posts : 483
    Points : 494
    Join date : 2015-04-26

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Erk on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:33 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko after the meeting said he considers the Minsk process to be a universal tool for achieving peace in Donbas. "I will repeat once again - there is no alternative to the Minsk process. We confirm it now. The Minsk process is an absolutely universal tool, it’s ceasefire, withdrawal of heavy equipment and artillery, ensuring full release of prisoners, access of OSCE to monitoring these processes," Poroshenko said. According to him, all issues can be resolved within the framework of the Minsk and Normandy formats. "We do not need new formats, we have the Minsk and Normandy ones. I am prepared to discuss new formats, but we believe the basic format is the Normandy one, which has proved its efficiency," he said.

    The problem with Poroshenko's claim is there's no shortage of photographic evidence that UAF are in breech of the Minisk II agreement with regards to heavy weapon pull back, and the constant shelling of Donbass. So why go have a meeting with Hollande and Merkel and lie when they obviously have intelligence on the real situation? Does he think they are uninformed and believe him? The only reason I can think of is to lie to the public via the media reporting on the meeting and quoting him.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 4085
    Points : 4169
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:35 pm

    I liked one of the comments on that vid:

    Hohols, what about the typical European values????? Like freedom of speech and expression?? Or were you only told about the gay-parades? Laughing
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 4085
    Points : 4169
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:29 am

    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote:  Some nice ukrainian democratic patriots espousing european values again by fending off another attack by the russian hordes.
    Translation: scumbag ukie patriots beating up a man just becauser he is wearing a shirt with 'USSR' on it.

    Btw, why the hell is it so difficult to post on this site? Im fed up of writing posts to find that the 'send' button doesnt work.

    3 battles for Khakov in WW2, hundreds of thousands of Red Army dead.

    And now some fascist apes run around the city and beat people wearing Soviet symbology. They don't even speak Russian, they are imported banderovite scum.

    The city has been overtaken by the Unclean, and should be purged with fire.

    But on second thoughts, why bother.

    I don't blame the Nazis, they're just doing what Nazis do best, can't blame an animal, even a banderovite one, for acting according to its instincts.
    Who I really blame are the Kharkov population, the same ones whose ancestors died to free the city from the Nazis.
    If their ancestors saw them now, if they could only see them now - they would spit on them; and so would I.
    Cowards, the lot of them. Working at the factories, building T-64s for the Great Hohol Army, probably being forced to scream 'Slava Ukraine!' so much now that they've accepted the slogan as their very own. They've willingly become brainwashed into Ukr propaganda by now, justifying their collaboration with their new found faux patriotism and artifical hatred against their 'sep' neighbours in the Donbass who had the balls to stand up and fight while they didn't. In their hearts they know it is a lie, but they cling to it anyway; the alternative is to face the truth - that they are cowards, and a disgrace to their forebears. They can't face it, the mirror stares back at them, and it shames them.

    And some people think that the VSN should sacrifice their men to liberate someone. They made their choice - let them rot

    My understanding is that Russians (which I think Kharkov people are) cannot act without strong central authority and command. During the critical phase in 2014 this central authority and command was formed in Donetsk but not in Kharkov. This is why Donetsk rose against Kiev and Kharkov did not. There was no leaders and no organized structures in Kharkov to make things happen. I don't think Donetsk would any different from Kharkov if Strelkov and co. did not do what they did there.

    Kharkov should have had it's own "Strelkov" 1,5 years ago.

    They're not Russians. Collaborating with the orcs? Not Russians, never. Can you imagine Volgograd or St. Petersburg occupied by the orcs?
    If an orc convoy tried to enter my city to threaten my family, no army, no police to protect us - I'd get it together with some local lads, find some weapons, and ambush them by the side of the road. And you better believe it.

    Russians were in Sevastopol. In the Crimea. In Donetsk. Lugansk. Kramatorsk. Krasnoarmejsk. Slavyansk.

    They didn't know what they were doing. But they did something.
    Some made baricades. Others confronted Maidan-sent soldiers. Others blocked in Ukrainian Army bases. Others went out and voted for seperation, or self-government. Others elected their own mayor and threw out the Maidan-loyal one.

    Some got lucky, got saved by Russia. Some didn't.

    What did Kharkov do? They tried to do something, no real masses came out on the street to support them. No armour was stopped with people's bare hands. No banderite-free zones were established and held.
    I remember a video of a pro-Russian rally there. Some office worker fucks, filming from a window, were joking about throwing Molotovs at the protestors (in Russian, of course)
    That's Kharkov. For every Russian, there are two traitors.
    Most pro-Russians would have fled by now, once they figured out the population's apathy and desire only to save their own ass.

    Leaders? You give a cause enough support, and they will be found. The organization will be found. The means will be found. Weapons will be found.
    The main thing, the only thing - is the will.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:45 am; edited 4 times in total
    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4170
    Points : 4187
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:31 am

    the mail online doing its lil' magic.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3205754/Blood-oozed-soil-grave-sites-pits-alive-secrets-Ukraine-s-shameful-Holocaust-Bullets-killing-centre-1-6million-Jews-executed.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

    Right on time for Ukropia Galore!
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 4085
    Points : 4169
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:52 am

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote:

    Some nice ukrainian democratic patriots espousing european values again by fending off another attack by the russian hordes.

    Translation: scumbag ukie patriots beating up a man just because he is wearing a shirt with 'USSR' on it.

    Btw, why the hell is it so difficult to post on this site? Im fed up of writing posts to find that the 'send' button doesnt work.

    3 battles for Kharkov in WW2, hundreds of thousands of Red Army dead.

    And now some fascist apes run around the city and beat people wearing Soviet symbology. They don't even speak Russian, they are imported banderovite scum.

    The city has been overtaken by the Unclean, and should be purged with fire.

    But on second thoughts, why bother.

    I don't blame the Nazis, they're just doing what Nazis do best, can't blame an animal, even a banderovite one, for acting according to its instincts.
    Who I really blame are the Kharkov population, the same ones whose ancestors died to free the city from the Nazis.
    If their ancestors saw them now, if they could only see them now - they would spit on them; and so would I.
    Cowards, the lot of them. Working at the factories, building T-64s for the Great Hohol Army, probably being forced to scream 'Slava Ukraine!' so much now that they've accepted the slogan as their very own. They've willingly become brainwashed into Ukr propaganda by now, justifying their collaboration with their new found faux patriotism and artifical hatred against their 'sep' neighbours in the Donbass who had the balls to stand up and fight while they didn't. In their hearts they know it is a lie, but they cling to it anyway; the alternative is to face the truth - that they are cowards, and a disgrace to their forebears. They can't face it, the mirror stares back at them, and it shames them.

    And some people think that the VSN should sacrifice their men to liberate someone. They made their choice - let them rot
    Quite a harsh thing to say. I do agree with you on some points however. Kharkov has and still is a Russian city, that won't change soon (unless concentration camps start popping up and I would not be surprised if they did now). Don't think that all the residents shouting "Heil Hitler" "Slava Ukrainia" are all locals now brainwashed. Many residents are now in positions where they can't get out without endangering their families and friends. Life there is still hard and if they do something out of the party line it could get a lot worse for them personally.

    Harsh?

    You should have seen the post that I nearly made, about giving the NAF chemical munitions for its artillery.

    Now that was harsh.
    But I can't in good conscience recommend it - not so much out of any feelings of compassion for the Hohol shit army (although I don't think they all deserve it), but more because they can do the same thing back, and against cities too.
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 8022
    Points : 8105
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:56 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:the mail online doing its lil' magic.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3205754/Blood-oozed-soil-grave-sites-pits-alive-secrets-Ukraine-s-shameful-Holocaust-Bullets-killing-centre-1-6million-Jews-executed.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

    Right on time for Ukropia Galore!
    Interesting article. Conspicuous by its absence is virtually any comment on the activities of the local non Jews in this operation. It didn't take them long to close comments on it!

    A sign of what was to come under the Germans was seen in the Lviv Pogrom of June 1941 immediately after the Nazi entered the city after pushing out the Red Army. A Ukrainian mob, eagerly backed by the new occupiers, stripped and beat Jewish women in the streets who were subjected to public humiliation. This was part of an orgy of anti-Semitic violence that included beatings and killings which led to the deaths of 4,000 Jews in Lviv (also known as Lvov), which is 31 miles south-east of Rava Ruska.

    'The topic of the Holocaust was almost banned in Soviet times,' Mikhail Tyaglyy, historian of the Ukrainian Centre of Holocaust Study, told MailOnline.

    For modern Ukraine the subject is difficult, too, because it means admitting a role for nationalists in colluding the Nazis, in part because some preferred a German occupation to Stalin's as the lesser of two evils. Soviet history neglected the anti-Semitic aspect of the Jewish killings, lumping these deaths together with total losses in the USSR.



    Then there is this, my highlight.


    'It is true that the local population did cooperate with German Nazis in the occupied territories but the majority of them were ethnic Russian.

    'Russia makes a point about Ukrainian nationalists because it is keen to divert suspicion from itself.'

    The notion of Ukrainian nationalists colluding with the Nazis was a vivid horror played on by Soviet propaganda, and now seized on again by the Russian authorities in branding 'fascist' those who currently want to be outside Moscow's sphere of control.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3205754/Blood-oozed-soil-grave-sites-pits-alive-secrets-Ukraine-s-shameful-Holocaust-Bullets-killing-centre-1-6million-Jews-executed.html#ixzz3jmA4CZwm



    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4170
    Points : 4187
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:02 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:the mail online doing its lil' magic.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3205754/Blood-oozed-soil-grave-sites-pits-alive-secrets-Ukraine-s-shameful-Holocaust-Bullets-killing-centre-1-6million-Jews-executed.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

    Right on time for Ukropia Galore!
    Interesting article. Conspicuous by its absence is virtually any comment on the activities of the local non Jews in this operation. It didn't take them long to close comments on it!

    A sign of what was to come under the Germans was seen in the Lviv Pogrom of June 1941 immediately after the Nazi entered the city after pushing out the Red Army. A Ukrainian mob, eagerly backed by the new occupiers, stripped and beat Jewish women in the streets who were subjected to public humiliation. This was part of an orgy of anti-Semitic violence that included beatings and killings which led to the deaths of 4,000 Jews in Lviv (also known as Lvov), which is 31 miles south-east of Rava Ruska.

    'The topic of the Holocaust was almost banned in Soviet times,' Mikhail Tyaglyy, historian of the Ukrainian Centre of Holocaust Study, told MailOnline.

    For modern Ukraine the subject is difficult, too, because it means admitting a role for nationalists in colluding the Nazis, in part because some preferred a German occupation to Stalin's as the lesser of two evils. Soviet history neglected the anti-Semitic aspect of the Jewish killings, lumping these deaths together with total losses in the USSR.



    Then there is this, my highlight.


    'It is true that the local population did cooperate with German Nazis in the occupied territories but the majority of them were ethnic Russian.

    'Russia makes a point about Ukrainian nationalists because it is keen to divert suspicion from itself.'

    The notion of Ukrainian nationalists colluding with the Nazis was a vivid horror played on by Soviet propaganda, and now seized on again by the Russian authorities in branding 'fascist' those who currently want to be outside Moscow's sphere of control.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3205754/Blood-oozed-soil-grave-sites-pits-alive-secrets-Ukraine-s-shameful-Holocaust-Bullets-killing-centre-1-6million-Jews-executed.html#ixzz3jmA4CZwm




    Yeah that's why i posted the link. they should make up their mind. Majority of Ukrainains are Ethnic Russians or Ukraine is actually Russia.
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 8022
    Points : 8105
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:04 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:the mail online doing its lil' magic.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3205754/Blood-oozed-soil-grave-sites-pits-alive-secrets-Ukraine-s-shameful-Holocaust-Bullets-killing-centre-1-6million-Jews-executed.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

    Right on time for Ukropia Galore!
    Interesting article. Conspicuous by its absence is virtually any comment on the activities of the local non Jews in this operation. It didn't take them long to close comments on it!

    A sign of what was to come under the Germans was seen in the Lviv Pogrom of June 1941 immediately after the Nazi entered the city after pushing out the Red Army. A Ukrainian mob, eagerly backed by the new occupiers, stripped and beat Jewish women in the streets who were subjected to public humiliation. This was part of an orgy of anti-Semitic violence that included beatings and killings which led to the deaths of 4,000 Jews in Lviv (also known as Lvov), which is 31 miles south-east of Rava Ruska.

    'The topic of the Holocaust was almost banned in Soviet times,' Mikhail Tyaglyy, historian of the Ukrainian Centre of Holocaust Study, told MailOnline.

    For modern Ukraine the subject is difficult, too, because it means admitting a role for nationalists in colluding the Nazis, in part because some preferred a German occupation to Stalin's as the lesser of two evils. Soviet history neglected the anti-Semitic aspect of the Jewish killings, lumping these deaths together with total losses in the USSR.



    Then there is this, my highlight.

    'It is true that the local population did cooperate with German Nazis in the occupied territories but the majority of them were ethnic Russian.

    'Russia makes a point about Ukrainian nationalists because it is keen to divert suspicion from itself.'

    The notion of Ukrainian nationalists colluding with the Nazis was a vivid horror played on by Soviet propaganda, and now seized on again by the Russian authorities in branding 'fascist' those who currently want to be outside Moscow's sphere of control.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3205754/Blood-oozed-soil-grave-sites-pits-alive-secrets-Ukraine-s-shameful-Holocaust-Bullets-killing-centre-1-6million-Jews-executed.html#ixzz3jmA4CZwm


    Yeah that's why i posted the link. they should make up their mind. Majority of Ukrainains are Ethnic Russians or Ukraine is actually Russia.
    I get the paper version every day. I'll see what gets in it in the morning.
    avatar
    SturmGuard

    Posts : 150
    Points : 155
    Join date : 2015-08-19

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  SturmGuard on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:17 am

    Apparently, including the adopted slogan of Maidan "Ukraine for Ukrainians (only)" or "one land, one people, one language", or which heroes does the glory belong to in the mind of UkrOps would be over the top. Really tactful to include "Russian propaganda" narrative in that one, and dropping in the (completely wrong) "ethnic Russian" reference.
    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4170
    Points : 4187
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:37 am

    SturmGuard wrote:Apparently, including the adopted slogan of Maidan "Ukraine for Ukrainians (only)" or "one land, one people, one language", or which heroes does the glory belong to in the mind of UkrOps would be over the top. Really tactful to include "Russian propaganda" narrative in that one, and dropping in the (completely wrong) "ethnic Russian" reference.

    Silence, no facts allowed.
    Erk
    Erk

    Posts : 483
    Points : 494
    Join date : 2015-04-26

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Erk on Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:38 am

    flamming_python wrote:

    Harsh?

    You should have seen the post that I nearly made, about giving the NAF chemical munitions for its artillery.

    Now that was harsh.

    I think the trick with this kind of WWII style land battle, which is going on in Donbass, is to destroy the other sides military equipment not so much the soldiers, many of which don't even want to be there. So chemical weapons would not help much when it comes to preventing artillery units from shelling you 24/7, you kill a crew they send in another and keep shelling. It's the howitzers and tanks etc. which are the real targets, because unless they find some sugar daddy like the US or EU to give them more hardware, they will eventually run low. But they can conscript more crews to man them.




    Sponsored content

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:10 am