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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #19

    Flagship Victory
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    Post  Flagship Victory Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:24 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:Crimea is significant because it gives Russia a great defensive terrain against attacks from the sea, and it's shore may contain some gas reserves.

    And Crimea was not any "trap" for Russia and Russia did the correct thing there. Ukrainians would have turned against Russia anyway.  The West absolutely did not want Russia to take Crimea. It was supposed to remain in Ukraine.

    But yes, other than Crimea the Russian gains are not that great concerning Donbass. The rebel-held territory is a tiny piece of land, not even half of the whole Donbass territory. The rebels should at some point take Mariupol and Sloviansk but it is not likely to happen in years since Russia cannot afford to support them enough.

    Crimea was a trap because Ukrainians won't stop hating Russia until Russia returns Crimea to Ukraine. Think about it. If some country snatched Ukraine from Russia, wouldn't Russians hate that country forever until that country returns Ukraine to Russia? What Putin should have done was occupy Crimea temporarily without absorbing it. Now it's too late.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:27 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:I don't know who is "desperate", NATO or Russia, but Russia is the one who is retreating and NATO is the one who is advancing. Russia getting Crimea is obviously great and a big loss for the NATO, but as far as the whole Ukraine is concerned the NATO won there and Russia's influence has been reduced to a minimum.

    Crimea is 4% the size of Ukraine. Ukraine is 3% the size of Russia. Crimea is a tiny gain for Russia, a huge loss for Ukraine. The US does not need Crimea to threaten Russia. The US can base its fleet at Odessa. The US has achieved its goal of turning Ukrainians against Russia the moment Putin fell into the US's trap and absorbed Crimea into Russia.

    Who the hell cares if Ukrainians are against Russia?
    Who are they?
    What is the importance of this country, its economy or anything else? It's a basket-case.

    You could just as well tell me that the US turned all Papua New Guineans against Russia - it would be of about equal irrelevance as you telling me about the Ukraine.

    The Ukraine hasn't done one thing since the USSR broke up other than ruined itself. A bit like how African countries went back to the stone age after achieving independence; although that example is actually unfair because the Europeans gave the Africans peanuts in terms of development and infastructure compared to what the Soviet Union did to develop the Ukraine.

    Pretty soon the Ukraine will regress to techno-barbarianism and that will be the end of that.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Karl Haushofer Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:27 pm

    calripson wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:

    That's right. Ukraine had close to half of the USSR's might. Ukraine always had the best Soviet military equipment. Even Tu-160s and nukes! The aim of dissolving the USSR was to pit Ukraine against Russia because Ukraine is a big powerful country having a big population.

    The West did not dissolve the USSR. The Kremlin dissolved the USSR. The West was just  witnessing the event and could not believe it's own eyes watching those Kremlin morons destroy the empire that the Tsars spent centuries of building. I bet they were celebrating with wine and laughter in Washington and London watching those idiots Gorbachev and Yeltsin destroy centuries worth of Russian heritage.

    Yeah, the West stepped into Ukraine with their NGO's after the Kremlin destroyed the USSR. The hatred of Russia  in Ukraine might be largely "thanks" to these NGO's.

    Just because the Cold War was not won by bullets and bombs does not mean the "West" were passive observers. To the contrary, their was a massive well planned strategy to collapse the USSR utilizing all vectors of soft power as well as Brzezinski's honey trap of Afghanistan.


    So you are saying that the West had such an influence inside the USSR that it was enough to collapse this nation of 300 million people and the strongest army in the world?
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    Post  Flagship Victory Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:29 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Who the hell cares if Ukrainians are against Russia?
    Who are they?
    What is the importance of this country, its economy or anything else? It's a basket-case

    You could just as well tell me that the US turned all Ugandans against Russia - it would be of about equal irrelevance to the Ukraine.


    Border. Border. Border. Moldova and Georgia and Azerbaijan hate Russia forever. The Baltic states hate Russia forever. Ukraine hates Russia forever. Which ex Soviet republic next? Belarus? Kazakhstan? Uzbekistan? Would the US tolerate a single hostile country on its border? The answers is NO.


    Last edited by Flagship Victory on Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:33 pm


    When will the fun stop? lol1

    Ukrainian Employers Blame Wage Losses on War

    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150809/1025560210.html
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:34 pm


    Science FTW, russia  F*ck Ukraine  Twisted Evil

    Holodomor Hoax: Joseph Stalin's Crime That Never Took Place

    Playing into the hands of Ukrainian nationalists, a monument to the so-called Ukrainian "Holodomor," one the 20th century's most famous myths and vitriolic pieces of anti-Soviet Propaganda, has been erected in the US capital.
    Rally to support Ukraine's integration with Europe on Independence Square, Kiev

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150809/1025560345.html

    Remarkably, the roots of the "Holodomor" ("deliberate starvation") myth lie in the longstanding Cold War standoff between Soviet Russia and the West. After the defeat of Nazi Germany in 1945, infamous Nazi collaborators — members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and their paramilitary UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) units — fled into Western Europe and the United States, escaping punishment for their hideous crimes, including ruthless terror against peaceful Jewish, Ukrainian and Russian civilians.

    In 1949 the CIA and the US State Department sponsored the OUN-UPA leaders' immigration to the United States, planning to use them as subversion groups and intelligence agents in the Cold War against the Soviet Russia.

    One of them, Mykola Lebed was characterized as "a well-known sadist and collaborator of the Germans" by the CIA, according to Swedish-American historian Dr. Per Anders Rudling in his book "The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust: A Study in the Manufacturing of Historical Myths." However, this fact did not prevented the CIA from recruiting the former Nazi collaborator.

    "Mykola Lebed [who was responsible for the murder of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia] lived in Queens, New York, until the 1990s, totally supported by the CIA or State Department," the US expert in Soviet history Professor Grover Carr Furr of Montclair State University, narrated in an interview with Sputnik in May, 2015.

    The CIA believed that Ukrainian nationalism could be used as an efficient cold war weapon.

    While the Ukrainian nationalists provided Washington with valuable information about its Cold War rivals, the CIA in return was placing the nationalist veterans into positions of influence and authority, helping them to create semi-academic institutions or academic positions in existing universities.

    By using these formal and informal academic networks, the Ukrainian nationalists had been disseminating anti-Russian propaganda, creating myths and re-writing history at the same time whitewashing the wartime crimes of OUN-UPA.

    One of these myths was "Holodomor" that claimed that the USSR and its leader Joseph Stalin deliberately starved to death from three to seven million Ukrainians.

    "In 1987 the film "Harvest of Despair" was made. It was the beginning of the 'Holodomor' movement. The film was entirely funded by Ukrainian nationalists, mainly in Canada. A Canadian scholar, Douglas Tottle, exposed the fact that the film took photographs from the 1921-22 'Volga famine' and used them to illustrate the 1932-33 famine. Tottle later wrote a book, 'Fraud, Famine, and Fascism: The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard,' about the phony 'Holodomor' issue," Professor Furr elaborated.

    After the collapse of the USSR, the Ukrainian diaspora played a substantial role in shaping the ideology of the new Ukrainian state. "Unlike many other former Soviet republics, the Ukrainian government did not need to develop new national myths from scratch, but imported ready concepts developed in the Ukrainian diaspora," Dr. Rudling underscored.

    However, it was under Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko (who gained his power after the Western-sponsored Maidan uprising of 2004, also known as the Orange Revolution) when the anti-Russian myth making caught its second wind in Ukraine. Under Yushchenko, several institutes of "memory management" and "myth making" were established in the country.

    Both Russian and Western historians have questioned the "Holodomor" concept as well as evidently exaggerated number of victims of the famine of 1932-33 in Ukraine.

    American historian Professor Mark B. Tauger, West Virginia University, carried out thorough research on the famine of 1932-33 in the USSR, and came to the conclusion that the disaster was due to environmental circumstances and was evidently not related to the Soviet policy in the region.

    "Popular media and most historians for decades have described the great famine that struck most of the USSR in the early 1930s as "man-made," very often a "genocide" that Stalin perpetrated intentionally against Ukrainians and sometimes other national groups to destroy them as nations… This perspective, however, is wrong. The famine that took place was not limited to Ukraine or even rural areas of the USSR, it was not fundamentally or exclusively man-made, and it was far from the intention of Stalin and others in the Soviet leadership to create such as disaster. A small but growing literature relying on new archival documents and a critical approach to other sources has shown the flaws in the "genocide" or "intentionalist" interpretation of the famine and has developed an alternative interpretation," Tauger wrote in his research work "Review of R.W. Davies and Stephen G. Wheatcroft, The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933."

    Tauger stressed that climatic conditions played the main role in the famine of 1932-33.

    Paradoxically, supporters of the "Holodomor" myth remain silent about the fact that Russia (including the territory of modern Ukraine) had suffered from periodic devastating famines since the end of 19th century, long before Bolsheviks came to power in 1917. They also ignore the fact that there were serious famines in 1920-21, 1924, 1927 and 1928.

    Interestingly enough, official Soviet Ukrainian primary sources show that the 1928-29 famine, caused by natural disaster, mainly draught, was very serious, and Ukraine received more aid from the Soviet government, than it sent to other parts of the USSR. This obviously disproves the false theory of the Ukrainian nationalists' "malicious" conspiracy against Ukrainian peasants in the Soviet Union, noted Grover Furr in his book "Blood Lies: The Evidence that Every Accusation Against Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union in Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands Is False."

    In response to historians who suggest that the Ukrainian peasants starved and suffered especially because of Collectivization — Stalin's policy of the early 1930s aimed at consolidating individual lands into collective farms — Tauger emphasized:

    "These studies minimize or ignore the actual harvest data, the environmental factors that caused low harvests, the repeated recovery from the famine and crop failures, the large harvests of the 1930s, the mechanization of Soviet farms in these years, Soviet population growth, and the long-term increases in food production and consumption over the Soviet period" ("Soviet Peasants and Collectivization, 1930-1939).

    According to the scholar, although the Stalin regime implemented collectivization "coercively," the policy "brought substantial modernization to traditional agriculture in the Soviet Union, and laid the basis for relatively high food production and consumption by the 1970s and 1980s" ("Stalin, Soviet Agriculture and Collectivization, 1930-1939").

    Remarkably, the famine of 1932-33 was the last famine that struck the Soviet Union with the exception for the famine of 1946-47 the country suffered from after the Second World War.

    Although the "Holodomor" myth was never based upon credible evidence and there are enough authentic sources to prove that it is a hoax, it is simply taken for granted. Unsurprisingly, Washington  supports the myth as a part of its recent Cold War-style anti-Russian campaign. Alas, even repeated a thousand times a lie will never become the truth.
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    Post  Flagship Victory Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:36 pm

    Putin told Zackarchenko to allow Maidan shelling Donetsk. Zacharchenko used to be a brave man. If he does nothing about Maidan's shelling, he will end up just like these OSCE cars that the people of Donetsk torched and smashed today. Mark my words.

    https://www.rt.com/news/311983-osce-ukraine-cars-burnt/

    How dare Zackarchenko say Maidan saboteurs destroyed OSCE's cars? He has no respect for the people of Donetsk. Perhaps, when he's strewn up by the people of Donetsk, he'll say he is strewn up by Maidan saboteurs Rolling Eyes


    Last edited by Flagship Victory on Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:44 pm

    Your getting some of your facts wrong. Border has f all to do with it. See Israel or Iran as an example. Surrounded by hostile nations yet thrives.

    That said, Azerbaijan has pretty damn good relations with Russia even though Russia supports Armenia. Uzbekistan already has poorer relations with Russia over Tajikistan and Tajikistan has so so relations with Russia, because of Kyrgyzstan.

    Belarus is a whole different country and even if they attempted a Maiden there, it wouldnt work. Because simply put, Belarus isnt a thriving thieves den, populated by various ethnic clans all wanting power and fist fighting all day long in their parliment building.

    A country like Ukraine has been a problem for both Russia and Poland for centuries. In this case, you are seeing both people and regions standing up to Kiev, while others are cowering due to the heavy handedness of the SBU. But that heavyhandedness cannot last forever.

    Like Python said, it was a black hole. For two decades after ussr, they paid tens of billions to that country for nearly squat in return. They stunted their own industry to prop up Ukrainian to help their economy and try to get them on their good side. Since the money scheme was going down the drain thanks to oligarches in Ukraine and Russia, the oligarches and the people who blindly follow them think there is a free ride in EU.

    Yeah, it would definately suck to have nato bases in Ukraine. But with donetsk and lughansk in Ukraine, would prevent most of that. But in meantime, Russia has to prepare itself and is doing so accordingly. Not for war, but for prolong confrontation, in mostly economics. The other thing this conflict has done was help Russia weed out their 5th coloumists as they are just giving themselves away.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:46 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Who the hell cares if Ukrainians are against Russia?
    Who are they?
    What is the importance of this country, its economy or anything else? It's a basket-case

    You could just as well tell me that the US turned all Ugandans against Russia - it would be of about equal irrelevance to the Ukraine.


    Border. Border. Border. First Molvova and Georgia hate Russia forever. Then the Baltic states hate Russia forever. Now Ukraine hate Russia forever. Which ex Soviet republic next? Belarus? Kazakhstan? Uzbekistan?

    You and your buddy Haushofer keep telling everyone about how Russia lost the Ukraine.

    Let me tell you something - Russia lost the Ukraine alright; but not in 2014 - but 1991.
    The mistake was already made 25 years ago and since then Russophobia and the ongoing reformation of the Ukrainian national consciousness into something that hates Russia with all its essense has been progressing and taken hold amongst a new generation of people with no direct memory of Soviet times and that can be told any old BS and believe it.
    The older generations meanwhile, have willingly forgot the Soviet experience and all other ties that binded them to Russia.

    This happened not last year, this has been happening for the last 25 years.

    It's like with the Nazis in Germany - they cemented their popularity by first appealing to the young, and then brainwashing the young. They captured the hearts of the young generation, and that's all it took - nobody had a chance of dislodging them or their ideology.
    The same with the Banderites. They've been keeping themselves busy since the Soviet collapse, and have now finally cemented themselves firmly into Ukrainian politics and national consciousness.

    Now - is it possible to reverse this trend?
    Well yeah, it is, but with the Nazis it only happened when they were beaten to a pulp, their atrocities exposed, and their own people made to feel the suffering of war that came about by the Nazis own belligerance.

    However, personally, I'm of the opinion that in regards to the Ukraine - it's just not worth it.
    This is not Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany was a very powerful country, a massive military threat. The Ukraine is a parody of that, and poses no military threat to Russia. It poses a threat only to civilians and defenseless people.
    There is no need to spend any resources, or send a single Novorussian or Russian soldier to die there.
    Let it consume itself for I'm convinced that it will.

    Now about Georgia, Baltic States, et all.
    OK, again, you need some history lessons. Like the Ukraine, these are independent countries, and are thus ultimately responsible for their own fate and will have to stew in their own shit if they make a mess of things - much like the Ukraine is now.
    America didn't 'turn' them. They've been hating Russia for a long time now, this didn't start with Uncle Sam. I remember the US Ambassador to Georgia in 1993 thought's on Gamsakhurdia and all his raving about seperatism, Russia, etc... he thought the guy was an absolute nut and America should stay as far away from supporting such people as possible.
    The US later decided to take advantage of the endemic hate towards Russia in places like the Baltic States and the Ukraine but that's rather different to actually starting it.

    About Belarus, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan you have no need to worry. There is no hatred or complexes towards Russia in any of those places. No amount of NGOs will help that.
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    Post  Karl Haushofer Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:47 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:I don't know who is "desperate", NATO or Russia, but Russia is the one who is retreating and NATO is the one who is advancing. Russia getting Crimea is obviously great and a big loss for the NATO, but as far as the whole Ukraine is concerned the NATO won there and Russia's influence has been reduced to a minimum.

    Crimea is 4% the size of Ukraine. Ukraine is 3% the size of Russia. Crimea is a tiny gain for Russia, a huge loss for Ukraine. The US does not need Crimea to threaten Russia. The US can base its fleet at Odessa. The US has achieved its goal of turning Ukrainians against Russia the moment Putin fell into the US's trap and absorbed Crimea into Russia.

    Who the hell cares if Ukrainians are against Russia?
    Who are they?
    What is the importance of this country, its economy or anything else? It's a basket-case.

    You could just as well tell me that the US turned all Papua New Guineans against Russia - it would be of about equal irrelevance as you telling me about the Ukraine.

    The Ukraine hasn't done one thing since the USSR broke up other than ruined itself. A bit like how African countries went back to the stone age after achieving independence; although that example is actually unfair because the Europeans gave the Africans peanuts in terms of development and infastructure compared to what the Soviet Union did to develop the Ukraine.

    Pretty soon the Ukraine will regress to techno-barbarianism and that will be the end of that.

    It all depends what Russia aims for and what Russia wants to be in the future.

    Trying to take back the whole Ukraine or even Novorossiya makes no sense if it is looked in a time frame of five years or even a decade. So if Russia is content with its current borders and its current role in the world then I guess Russia can let the West have all of Ukraine, including Donbass. This would bring some security concerns for Russia though since NATO missiles would be pointing at Russia from Kharkov and Donetsk. This is a question that Russia should think long and hard.

    But if we look at this with a time frame of 50 or 100 years it is a different story. Is Russia really content with losing historical Russian land, the most fertile Russian land, eternally for the enemy? Russia, while being the largest country in the world, is a country with cold climate and relatively little agricultural land with good climate. Without Ukraine (and Belarus) the optimal population for Russia is under 200 million. No more than that because it would get overpopulated. But with Ukraine and Belarus Russia could support a population of 300 million. This would bring Russia back to superpower level and Russia could realistically attempt to become the third superpower in the world with USA and China. With it's current borders it is not possible.

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    Post  sepheronx Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:48 pm

    Thats it. You are purely flame baiting. I am requesting for Mod intervention as you are your idiot finnish alter ego.
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    Post  Flagship Victory Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:50 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Your getting some of your facts wrong. Border has f all to do with it. See Israel or Iran as an example. Surrounded by hostile nations yet thrives.

    That said, Azerbaijan has pretty damn good relations with Russia even though Russia supports Armenia. Uzbekistan already has poorer relations with Russia over Tajikistan and Tajikistan has so so relations with Russia, because of Kyrgyzstan.

    Belarus is a whole different country and even if they attempted a Maiden there, it wouldnt work. Because simply put, Belarus isnt a thriving thieves den, populated by various ethnic clans all wanting power and fist fighting all day long in their parliment building.

    A country like Ukraine has been a problem for both Russia and Poland for centuries. In this case, you are seeing both people and regions standing up to Kiev, while others are cowering due to the heavy handedness of the SBU. But that heavyhandedness cannot last forever.

    Like Python said, it was a black hole. For two decades after ussr, they paid tens of billions to that country for nearly squat in return. They stunted their own industry to prop up Ukrainian to help their economy and try to get them on their good side. Since the money scheme was going down the drain thanks to oligarches in Ukraine and Russia, the oligarches and the people who blindly follow them think there is a free ride in EU.

    Yeah, it would definately suck to have nato bases in Ukraine. But with donetsk and lughansk in Ukraine, would prevent most of that. But in meantime, Russia has to prepare itself and is doing so accordingly. Not for war,  but for prolong confrontation, in mostly economics. The other thing this conflict has done was help Russia weed out their 5th coloumists as they are just giving themselves away.

    Israel signed peace agreement with Arab traitors Egypt and Jordan. Only Syria is hostile to Israel, that's why Syria is destroyed. Iran has no hostile neighbors. Russia has lots of hostile neighbors the Baltics, Finland, Norway, Ukraine, Azerbaijan which hates Russia's ally Armenia, Georgia, Uzbekistan. Now the US tries to make Belarus, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan hate Russia.
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    Post  Flagship Victory Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:52 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Thats it. You are purely flame baiting. I am requesting for Mod intervention as you are your idiot finnish alter ego.

    You don't dare to fight Maidan in Donbas. That makes you a coward. I'm Canadian. I'm not going to fight your Slavic battles. You should ask your leader Putin why he is watching this war as entertainment.  
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:58 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Thats it. You are purely flame baiting. I am requesting for Mod intervention as you are your idiot finnish alter ego.

    You don't dare to fight Maidan in Donbas. That makes you a coward. I'm Canadian. I'm not going to fight your Slavic battles. You should ask your leader Putin why he is watching this war as entertainment.  

    You are an idiot. Plain and simple. All you are doing is making up titles to li.ks (yes, I read the rt link you posted, said nothing about Putin telling anyone they need to take the bombings), as well, you are clearly just making up shit overall. Wanna talk about cowardice? Lets talk about you and your alter ego Finn. You guys seem to be bitching and moaning about Putin. Why not go to Russia and face him direcrly? Or are you too chicken shit?

    Pathetic. You make Canadians look retarded.
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    Post  Flagship Victory Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:03 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Thats it. You are purely flame baiting. I am requesting for Mod intervention as you are your idiot finnish alter ego.

    You don't dare to fight Maidan in Donbas. That makes you a coward. I'm Canadian. I'm not going to fight your Slavic battles. You should ask your leader Putin why he is watching this war as entertainment.  

    You are an idiot. Plain and simple. All you are doing is making up titles to li.ks (yes, I read the rt link you posted, said nothing about Putin telling anyone they need to take the bombings), as well, you are clearly just making up shit overall. Wanna talk about cowardice? Lets talk about you and your alter ego Finn. You guys seem to be bitching and moaning about Putin. Why not go to Russia and face him direcrly? Or are you too chicken shit?

    Pathetic. You make Canadians look retarded.

    I have no alter ego. I have 1 account. If you talk out of your a that's your problem. If I see Putin myself I would throw a shoe at him for not sending peacekeepers the people of Donbas have requested last May. To me he is a coward and a sadist who enjoys seeing people die by the thousands. Putin would never have been elected a mayor in the west let alone a president. Who does he think he is? A king? An emperor? Who gives him the right to change presidential term from 4 years to 6 years?


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    Post  Karl Haushofer Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:04 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Thats it. You are purely flame baiting. I am requesting for Mod intervention as you are your idiot finnish alter ego.

    You don't dare to fight Maidan in Donbas. That makes you a coward. I'm Canadian. I'm not going to fight your Slavic battles. You should ask your leader Putin why he is watching this war as entertainment.  

    You are an idiot. Plain and simple. All you are doing is making up titles to li.ks (yes, I read the rt link you posted, said nothing about Putin telling anyone they need to take the bombings), as well, you are clearly just making up shit overall. Wanna talk about cowardice? Lets talk about you and your alter ego Finn. You guys seem to be bitching and moaning about Putin. Why not go to Russia and face him direcrly? Or are you too chicken shit?

    Pathetic. You make Canadians look retarded.
    Me and Flagship are different people and the mod can see that I have a different IP address from his. So please stop making these accusations about me being his alter ego. Me and Flagship have some agreements but we disagree with lots of things as well, like Crimea being a trap for Russia.
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:05 pm

    Then go put your money where your mouth is. Already reported you so let the mods deal with this.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:07 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:But if we look at this with a time frame of 50 or 100 years it is a different story. Is Russia really content with losing historical Russian land, the most fertile Russian land, eternally for the enemy? Russia, while being the largest country in the world, is a country with cold climate and relatively little agricultural land with good climate. Without Ukraine (and Belarus) the optimal population for Russia is under 200 million. No more than that because it would get overpopulated. But with Ukraine and Belarus Russia could support a population of 300 million. This would bring Russia back to superpower level and Russia could realistically attempt to become the third superpower in the world with USA and China. With it's current borders it is not possible.


    Well it's not Russian territory, it belongs to those clowns in Kiev, and the people there themselves don't want it any other way - so what benefit is there for Russia in trying to absorb this land?

    By all means, if the people there were sane, wanted mutual economic co-operation and were willing to establish a firm unwavering trajectory towards Russia, then certainly investing in the Ukraine, even in the ruined Stalker-like anomolous zone state that it's currently becoming - would be worthwhile, due to its great potential. It would be worthwhile to invite the Ukraine into the Eurasian economic union, start thinking about a revival of its metallurgical, nuclear, aerospace, defence sector and integration with corresponding sectors in the Russian economy, to invite it to the BRICS format and think about some joint Russian-Ukrainian-Chinese infastructure projects in the New Silk Road format, and so on.

    But it's not sane, it's not a trajectory towards Russia - it's populated by tragic, butthurt people who are willing to destroy themselves if it means hurting Russia, to hurl themselves into the path of Russian artillery shells - for the sake of Russia wasting its ammo and not hitting their beloved masters in Brussels and Washington who keep promising the good life, a promise which has the Ukrainians enamoured in a trance approaching the conviction of a religious fevour - were any con-artist to witness this he would scarcely believe the power that the crooked EU technocrats and US political elite seem to hold over their prey.

    Question is - if these people are so ridiculously gullible, and hateful - what kind of partners could they possibly be anyway? Is this the type of partners or citizens that Russia needs; abject fools?
    Yeah I know, land. That land comes with the people, so yeah, thanks, but no.
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    Post  Flagship Victory Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:07 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Then go put your money where your mouth is. Already reported you so let the mods deal with this.

    That's with you Russians huh? Bunch of cowards. You don't dare to save the people of Donbas so you act like keyboard warriors. As I already said, if I ever see Putin myself, I'd throw a shoe at him. What's he gonna do? I'm Canadian. Russians don't dare arrest Canadians. Twisted Evil

    Turks fight and die in Syria by the tens of thousands and they are beating the Syrian army. You Russians don't dare to charge Maidan's army positions because you are bunch of cowards. That's why you'll never beat Maidan. dunno

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #19 - Page 12 Eaab9f644c7b4a6bba9619f103a22073_18

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08/quarter-million-people-dead-syria-war-150807093941704.html
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:14 pm

    Wont get arrested. You sure about that? Cause various americans were arrested in Russia for a lot less.

    Have fun loser.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:14 pm

    Keep kicking the troll guys; I have a feeling he's about to reveal his true self

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    Post  Flagship Victory Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:17 pm

    You know what? NAF is not brave. They are bunch of cowards. The only thing they ever do is shell Maidan's positions from several kilometers away. They never dare to charge Maidan's army positions the way Islamist rebels in Syria charge Syrian army positions and taking village after village, town after town, city after city. I'll change my opinion of NAF if they start trying to take territory from Maidan. Until then, my opinion of NAF remains as it is, cowardice. cheers
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    Post  Karl Haushofer Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:22 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Well it's not Russian territory, it belongs to those clowns in Kiev, and the people there themselves don't want it any other way - so what benefit is there for Russia in trying to absorb this land?
    Neither was Crimea a Russian territory before 2014. Things can change if there are people who are willing to make things happen.

    What benefit is there for Russia to absorb this land? I already tried to explain it. Most of Russia's landmass is useless tundra or taiga located in the cold northern hemisphere. This land has no economic value unless it contains oil or gas like Khanty Mansyisk region or the Yamal peninsula. Ukraine on the other hand is a rich agricultural land that alone could support 80-100 million people if it's economy was managed by the sane people. Currently it is run by maniacs but it is possible that somewhere in the future Ukraine can reach it's economic potential. For Russia it would be bad if the Ukrainian territory was ruled by Russian enemies at that moment. A wealthy but Russia-hostile Ukraine would be a big negative for Russia.

    I'm just saying that Russia should not voluntarily give away this potential. Donbass, Odessa, Kharkov and even Dnepropetrovsk could be absorbed to Russia in time. Kiev, maybe not because it has been flooded with thousands of Russia-hating western Ukrainians.

    In my books the worst outcome for Russia is to let the whole Ukrainian territory to be ruled by the current regime for a long period of time, because in time they will make Kharkov and Odessa to hate Russia too and these lands will be spiritually divided from Russia forever.


    flamming_python wrote:
    By all means, if the people there were sane, wanted mutual economic co-operation and were willing to establish a firm unwavering trajectory towards Russia, then certainly investing in the Ukraine, even in the ruined Stalker-like anomolous zone state that it's currently becoming - would be worthwhile, due to its great potential. It would be worthwhile to invite the Ukraine into the Eurasian economic union, start thinking about a revival of its metallurgical, nuclear, aerospace, defence sector and integration with corresponding sectors in the Russian economy, to invite it to the BRICS format and think about some joint Russian-Ukrainian-Chinese infastructure projects in the New Silk Road format, and so on.

    But it's not sane, it's not a trajectory towards Russia - it's populated by tragic, butthurt people who are willing to destroy themselves if it means hurting Russia, to hurl themselves into the path of Russian artillery shells - for the sake of Russia wasting its ammo and not hitting their beloved masters in Brussels and Washington who keep promising the good life, a promise which has the Ukrainians enamoured in a trance approaching the conviction of a religious fevour - were any con-artist to witness this he would scarcely believe the power that the crooked EU technocrats and US political elite seem to hold over their prey.

    Question is - if these people are so ridiculously gullible, and hateful - what kind of partners could they possibly be anyway? Is this the type of partners or citizens that Russia needs; abject fools?
    Yeah I know, land. That land comes with the people, so yeah, thanks, but no.

    I think you mistake all Ukrainians being like this. They will all be like this after he next 20 years, if things remain the same but I recall seeing big pro-Russian rallies in Kharkov and Odessa before they were put down by the junta. I see that at least the whole eastern part of Ukraine from river Dnepr is worth fighting for. They are after all ethnic Russians who live there and I believe that the most of them could be integrated to the Russian world.

    And for me a fertile agricultural land is the most precious natural resource in the world. Even more so than oil. The wealthiest human populations have always been from these fertile parts of the world (unless you count out the few oil-rich regions in cold/dry climates like Dubai, Qatar or Norway, and their oil will run out in 2-3 generations anyway but the agricultural land remains the same for milleniums). I think Russia should aim higher and not allow the whole Ukraine to slip away from it. And the means for doing this is a military collapse of the Kiev regime and more land grabs for the NAF. Step by step the NAF should absorb more territory with Russian help.


    Last edited by Karl Haushofer on Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:31 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  Flagship Victory Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:25 pm

    No land is ever given away. More than 10,000 Russian soldiers sacrificed their lives to retake Chechnya. It was definitely a mistake to dissolve the USSR in the first place.

    Also, it would be bad for Russia if Maidan rules Ukraine for a long time because Maidan does forced Ukrainization of Odessa, Kharkov, Dniperpetrovsk, Donbas etc. and therefore turn ethnic Russians into ethnic Ukrianians. But, then again, the Ukrainians who hate Russia the most are in fact Russian speakers or even ethnic Russians. Traitors like Turchynov, Klimkin are fine examples.


    Last edited by Flagship Victory on Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Karl Haushofer Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:40 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:No land is ever given away. More than 10,000 Russian soldiers sacrificed their lives to retake Chechnya. It was definitely a mistake to dissolve the USSR in the first place.

    Also, it would be bad for Russia if Maidan rules Ukraine for a long time because Maidan does forced Ukrainization of Odessa, Kharkov, Dniperpetrovsk, Donbas etc. and therefore turn ethnic Russians into ethnic Ukrianians.
    At least it should have been a managed break up.

    If Baltics wanted to go then fine, but force Lithuania to give Russia ("Russia" would also also consisted of Belarus and Ukraine and maybe Kazakhstan too) a slice of territory to connect it with Kaliningrad.

    If Moldova wanted to go then fine, but force Moldova to give Transnistria to Russia.

    If Georgia wanted to go then fine, but force Georgia to give Abkhazia and South Ossetia to Russia.

    And if the western Ukrainians wanted to go then fine, but separate it from the rest of Ukrainian SSR (in 1991 Kiev did not hate Russia and was not flooded by western Ukrainians) and let the Galicians form their own independent state with Lvov was their capital.

    The breakup of the country in 1991 was an uncontrolled chaos and left Russia with unfavorable borders.

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