Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

@GaryB

Not Russian, and Soviet era stuff should be the first to go.

No, of course not
The resource inherited from the Soviet era must be used to the maximum of its useful life, specially in wartime

In addition to building the Il-76MD-90A and modernizing the remaining Il-76 and An-124, the industry was destroyed in the 90s and cannot be rebuilt in a couple of days, workers and engineers must be retrained

Once this is done, start with new simple models, from the lightest and simplest segments and after 10 or 15 years make larger and more complex aircraft to begin replacing the Soviet ones

We see the same with aircraft, relaunching the construction of the Tu-160, investing in the industry, getting qualified personnel and then moving on to the PAK-DA.
And the same goes for ships, it doesn't start with nuclear cruisers and aircraft carriers, but with corvettes, minelayers, etc., then frigates and LSTs, etc.

Russia does not own the design rights to Antonov designs which means they don't on them and can't sell them and use them without worrying about what Antonov might do around the world... they have seized An-124 transport planes in Canada.

the 3 An-124 in Leipzig and the An-124 in Torono, have been illegally KIDNAPPED

Russia can build whatever it wants, Russia has not recognized Ukraine as a state since February 22, 2022, therefore it applies the law prior to December 1991
All the rules of law have been repeatedly violated by the West since 1945, therefore the only law in force is the internal law of each state that has the power to impose it
The An-124 was built at Aviastar, specifically 36 aircraft, 2/3 of the total and there is no impediment to rebuilding it except for the technicians

@Scorpius
As for the rumors about new medium-sized transporters, there are currently no aircraft factories in Russia that are not loaded with existing production programs.
So either we will hear about the start of construction of a new aircraft manufacturing plant, or the creation of another type of transport aircraft has been postponed beyond 2035.

There are more than enough plants, but there is not enough capacity, mostly due to a lack of personnel. In addition, the Ukrainian issue has set the Russian aircraft industry back 10 years

KNAAPO manufactures the SSJ-100 in addition to the Su-57 and Su-35
In Irkutsk there is the MS-21 in addition to the Su-30SM and the Yak-130
In Kazan they are working on the Tu-214 in addition to the Tu-160M ​​and maintenance of the Tu-22
There are also MiG plants in Nizhny Novgorid (MiG-31 modernization) and Lukhovitsy (MiG-35, MiG-29) with little activity

VASO is working on the Il-96 and the Russian An-148 were made, and they have also been working on the I-112 and will now make the Il-212.
In Samara they made the Russian production of the An-140 as well as parts for the Ukrainian An-140 and An-178, now they only repair Tu-95 and some civil aircraft

Therefore there is a place to make the Il-212, it should be in VASO with the help of Samara

AVIASTAR is going to be very busy. The number of Il-76s needs to be increased to 250 units, which means building about 100 more plus some versions and modernizing several dozen Il-76MD-Ms.
More than a dozen An-124s also need to be repaired to put the entire fleet into operation and continue with the maintenance of the existing ones, both civil and military.

@Rodion_Romanovic
As far as the il-112v, he's dead, Jim

literrally.... kaput

GarryB

They don't see

m to be working the An-124 fleet to death and restoring aircraft in storage and then refurbishing those currently in operation will likely lead to an increase in the fleet size by a significant margin... will they even need new aircraft that soon?

Do they even need the aircraft currently in storage?

The twin engined Slon design will be rather more useful because it will be cheaper and enable payloads rather higher than the Il-476 can carry to be moved without needing to use the much bigger and more expensive An-124 for the job. Even some jobs the Il-476 could handle might be better achieved with the miniSlon because with a 60 ton payload it could probably carry it much further than the smaller aircraft could manage and perhaps take it without needing to stop off anywhere for refuelling.

The reason why they have not put more An-124 into operation is the low rate of engine repair, Shoigu ordered to speed up and modernize the D-18T, in addition the Ukraine problem in 2014 has delayed all Russian military plans both in aviation and naval engines for the frigates.

For "peacetime" it was perhaps enough to have only 8 or 10 An-124s in operation, plus a dozen operated by Volga-Dniepr, which are sure to make trips abroad (China, Iran...) for the benefit of the MoD
Operating the aircraft in stages makes the An-124 fleet last longer


4 An-124 aircraft have been seized by NATO, so two Il-96-400Ts have been put into operation, which often fly to China, probably for the benefit of the MoD

In addition, two other An-124s that previously flew on loan to Polet seem to be being reconditioned by Aviastar, it is not known whether for Volga-Dniepr or for the MoD
In the image you can see the interior of Aviastar, one VKS An-124 in the center, and in front and behind two An-124s with the colors of the Polet company that were stored in Aviastar for more than 10 years.



There will be no new heavy aircraft before 2040, and it must be like the An-124, which has a cargo hold of 36x6.4m
Anything smaller makes no sense. It is not a question of weight, the An-22 was 33x4.4m, which is not very wide
The C-17 is 27x5.5m, which is wide enough to carry two rows of standard pallets in parallel, but it is short.
Manufacturing a new version of the An-124 is not at all unusual, the Boeing 747 is from 1969 and the Wolfswagen Golf is from 1974

Do you think they could replace foreign parts on existing aircraft and those in storage by 2028?

All the VKS An-124 are soviet made (last in 1990) and i beleive all the Volga-Dneper an-124 were made in Aviastar most in early 90´s without foreign parts

The Russian military uses a few different An-12 variants that the Il-276 could replace in service and when production was done the Il-276 production lines could be reverted to making Il-476s which would boost production numbers of that aircraft to allow exports to be considered.

That's not going to happen, all PS-90 engine production will be for the Il-76MD-90A between now and 2040, at least 100 have to be made, probably more with the versions, and many more for export to India, Pakistan, Iran...
The An-12 is only a remnant that is used occasionally to take advantage of the remaining flight resources.
Most of the remaining aircraft came from the last 2 or 3 VTA regiments that in 1990 still had An-12s or from other structures such as the Missile Forces that had their own fleet. When they run out there won't be any more. In fact, in the last 3 or 4 years most of the An-12s have stopped flying and those that remain fly very little times

The Il-212 will be the one to do all the regional transport in the VKS, planes like the An-26 for logistical reasons do not make sense, in the USSR there were hundreds of regiments with several air bases very close to each other in all the provinces.
Nowadays it is better to do a single flight A-B-C-D-A than three flights A-B-A, A-C-A and A-D-A with three different planes smaller airplanes

Maybe there are two Il-212 variants with PD-8 and PD-14 but I don't see why you want to lift more weight if you don't have more space to carry more pallets.
If they make an Il-212 that can carry 4 standard pallets, that is the same as the short C-130, although with a little less weight each pallet

I wrote about the timescales because it seemed to me that some users thought other projects (including the il-276) could be ready within a couple of years.

Nobody knows the work that is or is not being done behind closed doors and the urgency of the work is directly related to the current situation... where civilian airliners are a higher priority as the existing An-12s and An-24s and An-26s and An-72s and Il-76/476s can get the job done even if it is not ideal.

A modified Il-476 is the fastest solution to the replacement of the An-12 in the form of an Il-276.

An Il-212 might reduce the requirement for the Il-276 by replacing the An-12 and An-72 and An-26 in a lot of roles, but in the longer term they might find an aircraft to actually replace the An-12 is needed.

As far as the il-112v, it had a wrongly designed (and manufactured) wing, a wrong weight distribution and probably there were other issues.

But otherwise it was what they wanted.

All new aircraft have issues and changes that need to be made... that is normal.

If the Russian airline industry had supported their domestic designers and producers these things could have been sorted out decades ago... instead they will have to wait.

Buying Chinese or Brazilian aircraft is just continuing their original mistakes...

They were trying to solve them (the prototype who later crashed needed to carry also a lot of "ballast" in the front in order to be airworthy, which limited further its payload), but the only way to fix them, without doing some sort of temporary fix and compromising anyway its performance would have been anyway to go back to the drawing board and recheck also the requirements.

So while they are adapting the design for the PD-8 engines in the Il-212 model they will get some experience and time to do so.

They tried as much as possible to salvage the project, but at the end what they can salvage will be the experience, some lessons learned, some design concepts and some of the subsystem designs

All they needed were more powerful and more reliable engines and from the comments about the Il-114 they have it. The Il-114 is going ahead with unreliable engines you are claiming? The power rating was 4,500hp wasn't it? That is plenty for the Il-112 as it was.

Now they are making the Il-212 with PD-8 engines they don't need the Il-112 to carry more than 5 tons... that was what they wanted it to do. It just needs to take over from the An-26... there was no requirement for the Il-112 to replace the An-72 as well.

As far as the TVRS-44 Ladoga, this "Czech design with Antonov modifications" is a high wing airplane (as the An-24) and has been selected by Russia as the An-24 successor. It will cover a slightly different niche than the 68 passengers il-114 (which is a low wing airplane).

The high wing is mainly for cargo planes. Low wing for passenger planes. Did the Russian military select the Ladoga?

Then why would they waste time with the Il-212 when they have selected the Ladoga... surely PD-8 engines on the Ladoga would make more sense for a cargo plane.... continuing the Il-112 in the form of the Il-212 makes no sense if they are never going to go for the Il-112.

BTW the Ladoga uses the same engines as the Il-112 so how could it be acceptable?

It is not a proposal from just from UZGA, it has been confirmed from russian state officials. The civilian turboprop will be produced in decent numbers.

For civilian use... but what is the military choosing?

The military cargo modification is just a proposal, but it is a easier starting point.

So not actually happening yet if ever.

And since the An-26 was a military cargo derivative of the An-24, I thought that it would not be crazy if the An-26 successor will be a derivative of the An-24 successor.

But if the military transport plane is the Il-114 then surely the military cargo plane would be Il-114 based too.

As far as its engine, 2400 to 2600 hp (for the TV7-117ST-02) are perfectly adequate for an aircraft of that size with about 5 tons payload. If more power is needed they could use the TV7-117ST-01 of the il-114 which can be rated between 2800 and 3100 hp at max takeoff power).

It was reported above that it is running at 4,500hp on the Il-114 which should be plenty for the Il-112 as well... but the Il-212 could replace all of them and the An-72.

It was not enough, however, for the il-112V because of the larger fuselage and wrong aerodynamics.

The larger fuselage was obviously required... everything that is offered to replace the Il-112 will have to have the same fuselage expansion too to also meet the customers requirements.

Anyway, to have a turboprop aircraft with the desired characteristics (increased payload and larger cargo bay than the An-26 / TVRS-44T) they need to wait until the new engine (probably the PDV-4000) will be ready.

They are making an An-72 replacement which has been likely doing the jobs of the An-26 as they retire, why do you think they need the Il-112 now?

In 5 years time is fine.

caused a temporary stop to such project, so I doubt it will be certified before the end of the decade.

So.

It is not a critical priority that will collapse the Russian military if it is not replaced right now.

Just that it has a cargo bay 3.33 m wide and 2.60 m heigh, and has a payload of about 11 tons with two 4600 hp engines.

The AN-22 has a much bigger cargo bay and much better payload and the engines for the Bear have been massively upgraded.... but if they wanted to they could fit the propellers for the AN-70 on the Tu-95 engines to get a monster power plant that is currently in production...

They are working on the designs they need and when they are ready they will start producing them. Why is that so hard to understand?

The il-112v, even with a much narrower cargo bay (than the C-27J) would have needed at least two 4000 hp engines just to hope arriving to 5 tons payload.

Its cargo bay is bigger than the aircraft it is designed to replace. The fact that it is smaller than the C-27Js cargo bay is irrelevant... perhaps an Il-076 with PD8 engines and shrunken fuselage and wings for the An-72 replacement role is the better solution... that way from the An-26 all the way up to the Il-476 it has a bigger cargo bay.


You have been saying you don't like the plane (ie-112) for a while now and you would prefer an 8-10 ton payload aircraft be made instead... what do you think the Il-212 is going to be... and yet you are still complaining.

You don't like the Il-76 either so you reject the Il-276 too.

That is OK, I understand. But moving forward the Il-212 is happening so the Il-112 becomes less urgent and possibly irrelevant... which makes a Ladoga replacement irrelevant too.

The Il-114 is happening too making a Ladoga for the Russian military unnecessary... the Il-114 can easily replace the An-24 and the Il-212 will replace teh An-26 and An-72 in one hit.

Modifications to the Let plane no longer required.

And the cargo bay of the il-112v is just 20 cm wider than the one of the An-26 (2.42 vs 2.2 m) (its only real advantage is the cargo bay height),

The point is that they changed the dimensions. That was not to increase drag or reduce performance... it was clearly intended to effect the type of internal cargo the aircraft could carry based on operational experience.

which with 2 turboprop engines with max takeoff power of 2800 hp had a max payload of 6 tons.

Except they were talking about hp of 3,500 to 4,000, and 6 ton payload to replace an aircraft that could carry 5 is clearly what they required.

You do understand nothing comes for free. The extra power and size needed to carry 10 tons makes the aircraft more expensive and rather inefficient if it only ever takes payloads of 5 tons or less.

No, of course not
The resource inherited from the Soviet era must be used to the maximum of its useful life, specially in wartime

Perhaps you are not understanding what I am saying... making Soviet stuff the first to go does not mean immediately discarding it and having nothing.

It means using it up but not replacing it with more of the same. Replace it with new stuff or Russian stuff your Russian companies own all the IP and rights to that is not contested anywhere these planes might operate now and in the future.

In addition to building the Il-76MD-90A and modernizing the remaining Il-76 and An-124, the industry was destroyed in the 90s and cannot be rebuilt in a couple of days, workers and engineers must be retrained

Understand and agree... but the An-124 factory would be better utilised upgrading and russianising current An-124s and An-124s in storage rather than building brand new An-124s when their new engines wont be produced till 2027....

The An-124 factory would be better used to upgrade and overhaul existing aircraft and also build some prototypes of a two engine and four engined replacement for the An-124 so development can get started sooner rather than later. Production of a dozen pre serial production PD-35 could be tested and used in prototype aircraft to speed development.

They have An-124s in storage so they are clearly not getting overly used and as more Il-476s enter service the demand for heavier aircraft might reduce too.

Once this is done, start with new simple models, from the lightest and simplest segments and after 10 or 15 years make larger and more complex aircraft to begin replacing the Soviet ones

Which is all I am suggesting over a slightly shorter time scale... the work on the PD35 seems to be progressing well with few problems... which is impressive for such a powerful engine...

We see the same with aircraft, relaunching the construction of the Tu-160, investing in the industry, getting qualified personnel and then moving on to the PAK-DA.

The Tu-160 is not obsolete and was needed in greater numbers to become a viable fleet... if it was that serious to have heavy transports they could have put the An-124 into production with the An-22/Tu-95s engines as a stopgap An-22 replacement... why not?

Perhaps even fit 6 engines instead of four?

And the same goes for ships, it doesn't start with nuclear cruisers and aircraft carriers, but with corvettes, minelayers, etc., then frigates and LSTs, etc.

Well that is ironic as you suggest starting An-124 production at a time when the Il-112 and Il-212 are not being produced... so the opposite really.

the 3 An-124 in Leipzig and the An-124 in Torono, have been illegally KIDNAPPED

They have, you are right... and why do you think they would look at a brand new all Russian made An-124 and say... well we can't steal that and give it to Kiev... they will take any Antonov in Russian colours they can get their hands on.

Russia can build whatever it wants, Russia has not recognized Ukraine as a state since February 22, 2022, therefore it applies the law prior to December 1991

They can build what ever they want, but why keep alive a dead Ukrainian company when Russian companies will have designs and projects that Russia can fund and produce.

It might take 10-15 years to get something ready for serial production after the engines are ready but what is the rush?

Restore and Russianise the Soviet planes you have and use them till they become unsafe to use and by then produce the Russian designs you developed in that time.

Those engines seem to be already already high enough to handle landing on dirt

By putting them above the wings the chances of dirt and rubbish being sucked in is massively reduced plus the interaction of the engine exhaust and the wing surfaces allows the thrust to be vectored downwards adding to lift effect and improving STOL performance... as shown on the An-72.

AVIASTAR is going to be very busy. The number of Il-76s needs to be increased to 250 units, which means building about 100 more plus some versions and modernizing several dozen Il-76MD-Ms.

If they decide to make the Il-276 that would justify another factory which could make either type because they are the same aircraft but with bits added or taken out of the fuselage and wing. It would mean if you needed more Il-476s you could temporarily stop Il-276 production and produce extra Il-476s for a couple of years, or vice versa...

Are there any chances they will modify Tu-214 and Il-96 for military use? (AVACS and tankers)

They are straining to make as many as they can for civilian airlines, so military conversions will have to wait... but eventually there are going to be lots of Tu-214s around and a significant spare parts market and some factories that used to make civil airliners who don't have orders that the military could take advantage of to replace some older types in the military like the Il-20 and Il-22 and the Tu-154M and Yak-40 and Il-62 and Il-38. Of course some of those aircraft could be replaced with Il-114s and other types as well.

There will be no new heavy aircraft before 2040, and it must be like the An-124, which has a cargo hold of 36x6.4m
Anything smaller makes no sense. It is not a question of weight, the An-22 was 33x4.4m, which is not very wide

A Slon can be any width and height they want and is not limited to what the An-22 or An-124 was in the twin or four engined model.

Manufacturing a new version of the An-124 is not at all unusual, the Boeing 747 is from 1969 and the Wolfswagen Golf is from 1974

If it needs to happen then it can happen... but when the PD-35 engines are ready it makes no sense to fit them to the An-124 because they are way too powerful to make sense... like putting a V16 engine in a mini cooper.

All the VKS An-124 are soviet made (last in 1990) and i beleive all the Volga-Dneper an-124 were made in Aviastar most in early 90´s without foreign parts

Tell the western pirates who seized them and they might give them back.

That's not going to happen, all PS-90 engine production will be for the Il-76MD-90A between now and 2040, at least 100 have to be made, probably more with the versions, and many more for export to India, Palestine, Iran...

The Il-276 is a modified Il-476 so any factories added to make Il-276s could also make Il-476s if required... they are the same plane with a shorter fuselage and wings and a different number of engines...

Even if the Russian military does not need or want an An-12 replacement there are plenty of customers world wide that would appreciate them... especially with their commonality with the Il-476 which is also likely to sell well when made available.

The Il-212 will be the one to do all the regional transport in the VKS, planes like the An-26 for logistical reasons do not make sense, in the USSR there were hundreds of regiments with several air bases very close to each other in all the provinces.

And yet the An-72 never replaced the An-24/26... because for commercial operators it burns more fuel and costs more to maintain and operate.

The engine for the Il-112 was not chosen by accident... it will be widely used and is simple and cheap to work on. Propeller driven aircraft continue to be used commercially because they are much cheaper to operate and support even if they do fly a bit slower.

Nowadays it is better to do a single flight A-B-C-D-A than three flights A-B-A, A-C-A and A-D-A with three different planes smaller airplanes

Even with the higher flight speed that will take longer for one plane to visit those locations compared with three planes all flying at once. The first delivery will be efficient, but as the loads get lighter it becomes less efficient to use a heavier jet powered aircraft.

Maybe there are two Il-212 variants with PD-8 and PD-14 but I don't see why you want to lift more weight if you don't have more space to carry more pallets.

Scaling up creates problems... like the Ivan Gren river boat trying to be an ocean going landing ship.

The obvious problem is that if they used AN-12s instead of An-26s because of cargo bay volume or even Il-76 instead of An-12 because of cargo volume then designing a plane to replace the An-12 that is only slightly bigger cargo bay wise than an An-26 is the wrong way... it makes more sense taking the bigger cargo hold of the Il-476 and making it shorter with fewer engines and smaller wings but the bigger cargo bay cross section.

You can then use the Il-276 when otherwise you had to get an Il-476 for the height or width.

The Il-212 and Il-276 make sense to replace An-26 and An-72, and An-12 aircraft respectively and if they build a factory to make Il-276s and they only make 50 for domestic use that factory can start making Il-476s when it has finished production of the smaller aircraft, or can make the smaller aircraft for export if there is demand.

Export aircraft are going to make good profits for the factories and help them pay off their debts quicker...and the Russian military does not even have to buy a single Il-276 if they don't want them.

If they make an Il-212 that can carry 4 standard pallets, that is the same as the short C-130, although with a little less weight each pallet

There is no reason why they can't make it longer with all that extra power... an extra 3 tons thrust over the An-72.

Anyway restart production of the D-18T engines will make less sense if they do not restart also aircraft production.

Well it could be similar to the restart of production of the Tu-160. If they have designed the engine production factory to be a modern state of the art factory for making engines of potentially any type they could start by adding up all the An-124s that are in use and storage and make a couple of extra engines for each aircraft and make that number of aircraft engines... and when they have finished that start making PD-35s and other engine types they require in ever increasing numbers then it would make sense.

How many brand new An-124s would they actually make?

A dozen?

They are not going to need hundreds of them, and considering the purpose of the PD 35 engine is for their next generation transport planes making lots of An-124s is a huge step backwards. in money wasting and time wasting.

- The most under-utilized plant is Aviakor in Samara. It produced over 1000 Tu-154 planes in the past. It certainly has lost most its specialists and machinery is mostly old. Needs massive recruiting and investment.

Is it privately owned or is the government neglecting it?

Saratov: Bankrupt

The government could buy it and upgrade it to make Il-276 prototypes... once it has made a half dozen prototypes it could make Il-476s while the Il-276 prototypes are being tested and evaluated and serialised. When the design is ready the Il-476s that have started production get completed and are replaced by serial Il-276s.

The advantage is that Il-476 production will be boosted for a bit and then the smaller lighter cheaper Il-276s can be put in operation taking some of the lighter shorter range work from the Il-476 so they can do work that require their capacity. The Il-276 will be cheaper to operate than the Il-476 for jobs that don't require the Il476s full capacity or range.

Aviakor is also producing some parts for SSJ-100 and MS-21.

Government contracts don't pay well but making parts for commercial airliners should be profitable.

@caveat emptor

Aviakor is also producing some parts for SSJ-100 and MS-21. But, it is in a pretty bad shape. Deripaska didn't invest anything in the plant aside from bare necessities. It was supposed to build An-140, but production of that plane never took off.

Aviakor produced the russian An-140, in total 12 units finished and 3 unfinished. VKS operates 5, Ru Navy operates 4 and the Yakutia company has 3 (decommisioned)
Aviakor also made parts for ucranian An-140 and An-178 (1 prototype finished + 1 unfinished)
Until 2014, despite wikipedia and western media say, Antonov was a mixed russian-ukranian company, in fact Russia made 3/4 of the parts

Production and maintenance of the An-140 was halted by the coup in Ukraine, and Shoigu did not want Antonov aircraft with Ukrainian or Western parts, and the order for 9 An-140s and 15 An-148s was the work of the corrupt previous minister.

I am sure these sorts of discussions are taking place in Russia with each factory owner thinking the aircraft design they currently make is the best design moving forward and all the design bureaus thinking their design is the best solution.

Everything they do requires long term planning and the progress or otherwise of important engines and the levels they can be produced at when required is going to be rather important.

The reality is that they can get by with no new planes, but the movement of goods and products will be much easier to manage if certain planes get replacements and changed designs normally indicate a limitation or restriction the new design is supposed to correct... even if it reduces speed or reduces range for a given power plant, the solution is more power and sometimes that reduces reliability till the engine design can be improved to meet the new power rating... changing engine type is an option if there are other planes that are also more powerful that also need to be replaced... a jet powered Il-212 to replace the An-72 makes sense in the shorter term and in the longer term a cheaper more efficient even if slower Il-112 with a 4,500hp engine is something to work towards as a cheaper option later on.

Volga Dnepr has also 5 il-76 in its fleet but those aircrafts which in February 22nd, 2022 were stationed in Leipzig or rented from Canada were An-124. It has nothing to do with them being Antonov instead of Ilyushin.

It is currently anti Russian because of the Ukraine conflict. When that conflict ends and the"company" runs to the west when Kiev is defeated, who says they will ignore Russia and stop fighting them and admit defeat. They will likely get well supported by western intel and western governments to spend all their time in national court systems around the world fighting to seize Russian assets and Russian illegal copies of their product... and even if they never win a case who is going to use a Russian related transport plane of those types for international trade knowing some court could order the aircraft and its cargo seized?

Dumping the brand completely would enable Russia to get a clean break and start again with new designs. Russian designs... instead of Soviet designs.

In 2009 President medvedev said that they planned to build at least 70 new An-124 in the first phase, i.e. it was probably planned also a second phase with at least as many aircrafts.

Was that when they were planning Slon and Slon jnr? That sounds like a huge number of planes... but then that would have been with cooperation with the Ukraine and before the super sanctions from the west had been applied.

I agree, I only mentioned the Y-8 / Y-9 as possibile desperate move if they were really struggling and wanted to have something soon, not as a desired option.

When lighter aircraft are not available they seem to just use the Il-476 instead... or An-72 or whatever else is available at the time.

Some russian airlines operating in the far east and in remote, poorly assisted airports explicitly asked for a high wing turboprop aircraft.

When they fund the design and development of planes then the decision will fully be theirs... This is a the VTA section for the military.

No, the TV7-117ST-01 of the Il-114 is rated between 2800 and 3100 hp.

There was a recent video I saw that said the engine power had been increased to 4,000-4,500hp. The engine for the Il-112 was already 3,500hp to start with so it wont currently be less powerful or less reliable with the extra work.

At the end of the day it is not important, the Il-112 is the cheap option that can wait... the Il-212 replaces the An-72 and the An-26 like I believe was suggested before as a better solution to all the little planes.

The Il-112 high wing cargo plane that just needs an engine... while they are waiting there are An-26 and An-72 and soon Il-212 solutions to the problem.

Even if the design continued, it needs all development tests.

In all the news reports I have seen the engine is popular and cheap and simple to operate and maintain and they want it out in the sticks as a standard engine for the aircraft they are using. I rather suspect their ability to work with jet engines like the An-72 and Il-212 will be limited... but those are the breaks.

One of the reasons the An-2 continued in use all this time is the engine is cheap and simple and relatively straight forward to repair and keep going in the field.

Most of the aircraft to replace it, including the An-3 failed because the new engines are too expensive or can't be fixed or the new types don't have the same flight performance in certain situations.

The Il-112 is a better matched replacement for the An-26 than the An-72 and Il-212 for civilian use because of cost factors... even though the jets get teh job done and are superior in a few ways... the An-72 is only replacing the An-26 because the An-26 are running out of airframe hours.

A brand new plant will have to be built in the remaining plots of land formerly belonging to SAZ.

If that is the case then it makes more sense to just start again somewhere else and build a new group of factories.

Deripaska is one of the leeches among the russian billionaires (he is at least less treacherous than others, but he is still a leech who acquired all is firms for almost nothing in the 90s).

That is fantastic news... the Russian courts have been investigating such corruption cases and making it right so this should allow them to take the resources and companies and land without having to pay the thief who stole it from the Russian people. I say go after that.

Aviakor produced the russian An-140, in total 12 units finished and 3 unfinished. VKS operates 5, Ru Navy operates 4 and the Yakutia company has 3 (decommisioned)
Aviakor also made parts for ucranian An-140 and An-178 (1 prototype finished + 1 unfinished)

Well sounds like a dead end production tree... perhaps they should be set up to build whatever light plane equivalent the Russian military chooses for their light planes eventually... Il-212 or Il-112 or Let...

@Scorpius
The An-148 program has been closed for more than 5 years. The Voronezh plant is currently unable to produce more than 2 IL-96 aircraft per year. Don't forget that I am a former employee of this plant and I know its condition well. At the time of my work, there were about 14,000 employees there - just then the AN-148 program was launched, and the plant also participated in cooperation under the SSJ-100, IL-476, T-50, IL-114, IL-112B programs and manufactured some composite parts for Airbus.
Currently, the number of employees at VASO does not exceed 5.5 thousand.
There are simply no facilities there to produce the IL-212, and preparations for expanding production will take at least a decade.

The An-148 program was completed because there was a contract signed for 15 aircraft before the coup in Ukraine, otherwise it would have been buried in 2014 like everything related to Ukraine and Antonov

As for VASO, I don't know, the complex seems big and they have been making big planes, the problem seems to be the number of specialized personnel but this is already being fixed in other places

I think that in the next 5 years serial production can be launched and if necessary a new workshop can be built for the Il-212, it's all a matter of investing money. The production line for the Il-76 was launched between 2016 and 2020, the one for the Il-212 could be easier because it is a smaller plane.

There are simply no facilities there to produce the IL-212, and preparations for expanding production will take at least a decade.

If the whole place was supposed to produce antonovs and Il-96s and all it can manage is two Il-96s then it sounds like it is massively under funded and under resourced... or it is broken and needs to be put down.

I would say the current need for aircraft production of all types (which mirrors problems across the board... they need robots and they need ships and they need cars and they need all sorts of things being put into mass serial production) so building more factories and upgrading existing factories and introducing more infrastructure to speed up production like robot fabrication systems and automated production facilities that don't require enormous numbers of workers is something they should be working on.

If they wanted to make An-140s there then they should be able to make Il-212s there eventually too... they just need to invest and deal with the problems stopping things moving faster.

A cargo transport aircraft with 2 engines with 4500 hp should have a higher max takeoff weight, and double the range and payload (while having a wider cabin) than what the il-112 was supposed to have on paper.

And?

It will be a brand new aircraft that should be cheaper to operate than the Il-212 which is being developed... those are the two criteria for the aircraft... because once the Il-212 is in production it can do the job and a few other jobs as well so the only reason for another plane would be that it can do the lighter work cheaper... not faster or with more payload because they are not going to be able to make such a plane that is better than the Il-212.

The il-112v is a dog.

A dog can be the best friend you ever had.

I you expect a purse dog to pull a cart then you will be disappointed.... if you expect a Rottweiler to fit in a purse you are dreaming.

This dog is custom made to carry the cargo they want to carry... they don't need more than 5 ton payload for this aircraft because anything heavier would go in an An-72 or eventually Il-212.

The point is that your Ladoga or even the Il-114 don't have the body shape the Il-112 has so whatever they wanted to move with it is going to have to go by Il-212 anyway... which reduces the value of the lighter aircraft if it can't take what they want it to take.

Since they are not in hurry anymore to put it in service as soon as possible, the only way to get a decent aircraft (if they really need an aircraft powered by two Turboprop with 4500 hp) is to get back to the drawing board and start again from concept design and reviewing all requirements.

It is funny that Russia does not have enough engineers and designers to make Slon or Slon jnr but they have designers and engineers to make AN-26s aircraft three times... Il-112, Il-212, and Ladoga... and now Il-112 again from scratch.

Are you missing something pretty obvious?

The Ladoga... which you think is damn amazing and the solution to everything is NOT a from scratch design.

It is a Let L-610 with some An-140 added to it... surely they should scrap it completely and start again from scratch and design a better aircraft?

If the Il-112 is so terrible why are they using it as the basis for the il-212?

They basically said the only real problem moving forward was that the engine is not reliable enough because they boosted the power, and that a bit more power would probably be needed.

And yes they did have problems with ballast and weight goals, but they had sorted those out when the engine reliability problem caused a crash.

Ballast just suggests shifting things around a little bit... which is not that uncommon on any new design.

Otherwise they can just get a slightly better dog, but still a dog, which will be seriously underperforming for what it is supposed to do.

Why do you hate dogs?

The replacement for the An-26 is not going to perform brain surgery... it is a cheap light simple transport plane. An Alsation with a backpack is an excellent analogy of what they actually need.

Over the next few decades of service they can improve the engine and make other adjustments while other problems get sorted out...

Of course they can do a brand new aircraft in that niche.

But why?

They are only replacing a cheap light transport plane with another cheap light transport plane they can make in series.

They spent money developing the Il-112V and because it lacks a suitable engine you want to completely scrap it and spend more money and another 10 years making another different but similar aircraft to do the same thing?

Is there no other Czech plane they could copy?

Maybe an Austrian plane?

Except when you expand their cargo bays to fit whatever they were planning to fit inside them you get exactly the same problem they are having with the Il-112V... they need a more powerful engine that is reliable... so all that extra money and time is wasted.

Simply put it on hold till the right engine is available and work to get the Il-212 going to replace the An-26 and An-72 and probably in some light roles the An-12 as well.

If all they get out of this is the Il-212 then that is just fine with me, but the reason they kept using the An-26 was because it was cheap to operate.

Ask yourself if the An-72 is so damn superior and can do all those jobs... why do they still have some and it is the An-26s that are running out of airframe life?

It is because the cheaper An-24 and An-26s were used as often as possible because they were cheaper to run and easier to keep running and that is why the Il-112 should be made when a suitable engine is ready.

Whether some foreign type can do better or not is irrelevant because if you take the western parts out of them they are lumps of coal.

They can also call it again il-112,

It is not about the name, it was designed for the job but there was no available engine for it when it was needed... so they switched engines to the PD-8.

Of course with the An-2 they switched the engines to a turboprop and called it An-3 and nobody bought it... because it ran on Kerosene which is expensive and not abundant in the tiny fields they operated from. The An-2 could operate on diesel that generators operate on which is flown in to tiny airfields all the time.

The An-2s engine was easier to fix and maintain too...

But the An-3 had a better payload and better flight speed and longer range and all sorts of indicators that made the An-2 look like the dog... but the An-3 failed because it didn't do the job and was too expensive to operate.

The Il-112 didn't get fat on a whim, they didn't do it for fun... it was clearly a requirement that would have costs in drag and performance.

Any other from scratch design to replace it will also require that volume to work.

Than let's suggest them to dump the il-76 as well since it is a soviet design much older than the An-124 or An-70.

They have already invested money in its upgrade and serial production and it is in serial production.

The factory to make An-124s could be adapted to make any large planes once the existing An-124s are upgraded and put back into service.

If they already had 100 Tu-160s and half of them had different avionics and systems because of when they were built then building a new factory essentially to make the PAK DA but to first overhaul and upgrade all the Tu-160s to the same most recent standard would be a sensible use of time for the factory while they wait for the PAKDA design to be finalised. They could include making a few PAK DA prototypes during the work schedule upgrading the Tu-160s, which could be practise runs at modifying the individual production chains making the aircraft from upgrading the Tu-160 to making PAKDA aircraft, which they could apply when the last White Swan is upgraded and serial production of the PAKDA starts.

Anyway there are almost no new aircraft projects which are completely independent from previous designs.

True, because there are no radical revolutionary designs that require such a departure from what has been made before.

A plane design from the 1970s with brand new engines could be competitive right now with all the old electronics removed and replaced with new stuff.

But this is different because they really want to replace two planes... the An-22 and An-124 with one aircraft shape that differs in the number of engines and the length of the fuselage and the size of the wings.

This single aircraft design has been called Slon and I expect most of the aircraft designers have put their hat in the ring and want the job.... if you look at Soviet times some take a conservative route, while others go for more radical stuff... you could argue the Sukhoi forward swept wing radical design won them the contract for the PAK FA, despite their eventually plane being less radical than the prototype.

Not just aircraft... the competition for the R-27 was called a copy of the Sparrow but it was not. If you look closely at the so called Sparrow copy its rectangular fins were painted to look triangular like the Sparrow fins but it was not the same... but it lost because the butterfly wings of the R-27 allowed turns with less drag... essentially the forward fins acted like forward swept wings and did not lose energy in hard turns like a triangular fin would.

If one design was promising and worth further development, why discard everything?

They are not discarding everything, they are upgrading the An-124s as far as they can including improved engines.

If heavy transport planes were in such great demand why did it take until 2027 to get engine production back up and running?

The highest priority engines seem to be PD-14 and PD-16 and PD-8 sorts of things... the PD-35 is going forward and seems to be doing rather well considering the levels of problems it must be overcoming.

If they were putting An-124 seriously into serial production and making 100 of them... meaning 400+ engines would be essential not including the other engines for the existing types, then wouldn't it make sense for them to have pushed the PD-26 or PD-28 or some such thing?

Of course, many proposed designs reveal themselves to be unsatisfactory, but if this is not the case I do not understand why they should be completely scrapped just before at some point a part of the design has been done in a country which later separated from Russia and became hostile (until its eventual destruction).

So scrap the Il-112 because it just needs a suitable engine, and keep the An-124 forever even though it also just needs an engine.... interesting double standards.

The il-112 is designed to do what it is designed to do... the Il-212 can do that too but the il-112 will be much much cheaper if also much less capable in many areas.

The An-124 is a cold war design they have a chance to replace with new designs that are modular and therefore cheaper or able to carry more further.

Finally Antonov has never really been an Ukrainian firm.

And the engines were never Ukrainian either?

Antonov was a Soviet company that became a Ukrainian company by geography... and the Ukraine destroyed the company with their bigotry and stupid choices... mostly to try to hurt Russia.

and ask them to have a look at the An-70 design and make an updated design for a 25 tons payload military transport aircraft based on it.

Let antonov go... (oops I don't mean Let as in Let 610...)

(your response to Scorpius I agree with...)

@GaryB

The il-112 is designed to do what it is designed to do... the Il-212 can do that too but the il-112 will be much much cheaper if also much less capable in many areas.
The An-124 is a cold war design they have a chance to replace with new designs that are modular and therefore cheaper or able to carry more further.

The second prototype of Il-112 should be finished and taken to a museum at an engineering university, with the label: "how not to design an airplane"

The empty capacity of the aircraft was 14t, while the MTOW was 21t, with a fuel capacity of 7200 liters or 5.5t, so with all the fuel it can only carry 1.5 tons at its maximum capacity. The aircraft is about 2 to 3 tons too heavy when empty.
I said it years ago, this aircraft is very fat for such small wings and for the low engine power, only about 2800hp or 2750 CV

Comparing it with the CASA C-295 or the C-27J is astonishing

Perhaps it would have been more interesting to put the same engines as the An-8/10/12 or the Il-18/20/22/38 family even if they were old, but safe and widely tested. The An-12 engine has about 4000 hp, the Il-38 has 4200 hp and the An-32 has 5000 hp.

It might be interesting to make two versions of the Il-212, one with a propeller engine and another with a jet engine similar to the An-72, which will be needed by the VKS and the Navy, as well as by the Border Guard, the Ministry of Emergencies and the Ministry of the Interior.
It would have the same fuselage, but different engines placed in different parts of the wing.

The second prototype of Il-112 should be finished and taken to a museum at an engineering university, with the label: "how not to design an airplane"

Assuming that is true perhaps the lesson is to not buy foreign shit and let your aircraft designing students get real practise designing real aircraft for your airlines and air force instead of buying foreign designs with promises that turn into sanctions.

I said it years ago, this aircraft is very fat for such small wings and for the low engine power, only about 2800hp or 2750 CV

They were talking about 3,100 to 3,500hp for the versions of the engines they were using.

Comparing it with the CASA C-295 or the C-27J is astonishing

The purpose of the Il-112 was to be a Russian low cost replacement for the An-26. It was not required to beat any foreign alternatives and using much more powerful engines to beat such aircraft in a foot race is the height of ignorance.

The An-26 was fully successfully doing the job and likely the only issue they had with the aircraft was an issue with volume, which they corrected with the Il-112 design.

The choice of the engine was not an accident... this engine is going to be widely used across Russia... the Baikal and Ladoga are going to use this engine, and so is the Il-114 replacement for the An-24, and the Mi-38 helicopter and the Altius drone are all going to use the same or related engines so parts and support will not be a problem even out in the middle of the sticks so to speak. More importantly the engine will run on diesel.

Can you assure me that these super dooper fantastic foreign planes you keep bollocking on about will be as cheap to operate as the Il-112 because that is all they really care about... two things... can it do the job the An-26 did and can it do the job cheaply and affordably?

If those two things get a tick I doubt the give a flying **** what CASA planes can or cannot do... no doubt they will have American and western parts and not be an option anyway.

The An-12 engine has about 4000 hp, the Il-38 has 4200 hp and the An-32 has 5000 hp.

Increasing the engine power by too much and you cost too much... increase payload by too much and the Il-212 is no longer needed.... and for a while that will probably be the best solution. They don't need an Il-112 but they will save a lot of money and free up time on larger heavier aircraft by having them... and they will sell rather well to commercial operators...

It might be interesting to make two versions of the Il-212, one with a propeller engine and another with a jet engine similar to the An-72, which will be needed by the VKS and the Navy, as well as by the Border Guard, the Ministry of Emergencies and the Ministry of the Interior.
It would have the same fuselage, but different engines placed in different parts of the wing.

That would be essentially what they are doing... but they don't need 5,000hp engines.... probably 3,500-4,000hp would probably be enough and they are probably close to already having them.

One is (il-112) an uncertified prototype which was badly designed, overweight, with insufficient range and payload and with wrong wings (and with wrong weight distribution).

It was designed for a purpose, which you are totally ignoring... but that is OK and quite normal.... AN-3, An-28, An-38, all designed to replace the An-2 and all failed because they ignored the fact that in the sticks if you can't get avgas and you can't fix modern sophisticated engines then it just gets rolled to a corner of the airfield and the An-2 gets rolled out and fuelled up and used instead.

The Il-112 is an attempt to slightly expand the transport capacity of the An-26 by enlarging the cargo bay and using engines that will be everywhere in the near future in Russia because most light aircraft will be using them.

The Il-112 might not be a world breaking state of the art super plane, but it is a solution to the problem at hand.

The Il-212 is a fast track solution to lack of a suitable engine now that solves the future problem of what to make to replace the An-72.

At the end the Slon proposals are nothing more than a slightly altered An-124.

You have seen the Slon proposals from all the UAC departments participating... do share...

Which means all detailed design and development tests would need to be redone for little advantages (but some improvements could be already introduced on the modernised An-124.

Improvements in design and materials and even methods of fabrication (3D printing for example) make shapes and structures that would be impossible before, possible now.

They have supercomputers and advanced design tools and materials to test dozens... hundreds of designs a week.

They could even make a wide bodied airliner that uses the same shape and kill three birds with one stone.

And Russia needs An-124, because some "objects" that the Air force and army wants to transport are simply too large for il-76.

They can make the Slon any size they need and with rather more engine power to drive it they can make it quite a bit bigger inside.

They could design a super Slon with 6 engines of PD-50 design eventually to fly around sowing Hazelnut groves around the world...

Yes it would not offer the same internal space as the Il-112V, but at least it is supposed to fly and does not require engines which do not exist now.

So less appealing than the Il-112 and probably wont be ready any sooner than the Il-212.

And no the il-212 will not be a slight modification of the il-112v. Probably they can keep the fuselage shape and the internal cargo area (it is already bulkier than the An-172), but most of the rest will be changed.

New engines and new wing and likely new undercarriage because it will be operating at heavier weights.. so it is a slight modification of the Il-112... probably longer fuselage to allow more load to be carried with the extra engine power.

Which means when the upgraded TV117 engines are powerful enough and reliable enough they could shorten the fuselage and fit the engines under the wings and you have the Il-112 ready to go with a much lighter payload but a fraction of the operational costs.

Anyway even if it was a good dog, a dog cannot fly...

Yet the best fighter planes are called dog fighters...

Note, I am sure that Russia can make a good light/medium aircraft with relatively large cargo bay frontal area (like the one of the il-112v). They just need to go back to the drawing board and to review all requirements and start from there (which is probably what is happening with the il-212).

I think the core problem you two have (Rodion_Romanovic and AMCXXL ) is that this plane was made to strict requirements but the core requirements did not include carrying more payload or being better than foreign equivalents. The job of the Il-112 was to basically replace the An-26 with an engine that in the near future is going to be standard across light aircraft and even drones and medium helicopters, for it to be able to carry some outsized loads the An-26 could not carry and normally require a much more expensive aircraft (An-72 or An-12) to carry instead, and for it to be cheap to operate.

Everything else is bullshit.

There is no value in demanding it carry 7 tons or 9 tons or whatever... if the job requires more than 5 tons capacity then use the Il-212.

The Il-212 will probably have a payload in the region of 12 to 15 tons and might even make the AN-12 unnecessary.

With the Il-112 at 5 tons payload and the Il-212 at 12 tons... perhaps the next size up could be an Il-276 at 30-35 tons payload with PD-16 engines perhaps....