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    Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic 03/01/25, 02:40 am

    AMCXXL wrote:I see several options:

    fill the gap replacing An-12´s for modernized Il-76MD-M as the Il-476s gradually replace the Il-76MD and waiting for better times until the developement of a new russian medium transport

    fill the gap purchasing several dozens of the chinese Y-9, the modern chinese version of An-12

    purchase to Brasil the C-390 and operate a BRICS airplane

    It is true that there is currently a gap in the aircraft produced by Russia concerning the mid size transport, also because they never took a decision between the Il-276 and the Tu-330.

    The last official communication I remember was from December 2019 , 5 years ago,
    https://aviation21.ru/il-276-ili-tu-330-kakoj-svts-vyberet-minoborony/

    "On the issue of creating a medium military transport aircraft, a meeting of the interdepartmental commission was held at the end of November to review the draft design. Now we have been presented with two options for creating a medium military transport aircraft based on the Il-276 aircraft developed by PJSC Il and based on the Tu-330 aircraft developed by PJSC Tupolev," the deputy minister said.

    He explained that the commission would analyze the proposed projects and determine the type of SVTS. Alexander Krivoruchko added that the planned date for creating the aircraft is 2029.

    ...but since then I have not read any official statement on either of them.

    Both iliushin and Tupolev are currently busy with other projects, so it is possible that they just postponed the work until at least il-212, il-114 and the updated Tu-214 are in serial production.

    Maybe they could do the tu-214 in a hybrid transport tanker version to cover a part of the tasks of an An-12, while waiting for the An-12 successor, whichever it will be.

    Furthermore the il-212 could probably be able to carry 10-12 tons payload, so help partially cover this niche as well. Hopefully it will not be long before that airplane will be ready.

    At the moment the only military transport aircraft they can produce is the il-76.

    In theory the improved production line should be able to increase the production to up to 18 il-76 per year, but possibly there is a limit due to other part production, including engines.

    If they were really desperate, they could get a few Y-9 as an emergency stop gap just to replace old An-12 to be decommissioned. That way they would probably not even need to retrain crew and maintenance personnel.

    I doubt it will be an option.
    As far as the C-390 it is even more unlikely.

    While being in Brics, Brazil is still a western subject.
    Most internal parts used in the C-390 are produced in US, England, France or Israel. No way that Russia could buy it even they wanted.

    Import substitution of that plane would cost as least as much money and time than bringing the Tu-330 to serial production.

    Furthermore Russian own industries need work.

    No need to waste money on foreign planes.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 03/01/25, 04:13 am

    @AMCXXL do you have any numbers of the old Il-76M/MDs??
    franco
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    Post  franco 03/01/25, 06:35 am

    They have talked about a production rate of 10 airframes per year. 6 Il-476 + 2 Il-78-90 + 2 A-100 would work nicely.

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    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL 03/01/25, 08:10 am

    @AMCXXL do you have any numbers of the old Il-76M/MDs??

    Yes , the total of soviet Il-76, included Il-76M, Il-76MD and Il-76MD-M is over 130 after the lost of several in accidents or destroyed by Ukrania
    counting 28 Il-476, the total number is about 160

    the An-22 made the last fligth in 2024, so is necesary repair the An-124 in the reserve to increase the number in service



    Furthermore the il-212 could probably be able to carry 10-12 tons payload, so help partially cover this niche as well. Hopefully it will not be long before that airplane will be ready.

    At the moment the only military transport aircraft they can produce is the il-76.

    In theory the improved production line should be able to increase the production to up to 18 IL-76 per year, but possibly there is a limit due to other part production, including engines.

    If they were really desperate, they could get a few Y-9 as an emergency stop gap just to replace old An-12 to be decommissioned. That way they would probably not even need to retrain crew and maintenance personnel.

    In fact, the An-12 segment could not be necessary if the Il-212 can load 12 or more tons

    An-12 is only for internal use, in special in Siberia, Far East and North, in the Moscow area and South is not very necesary, and in the larger areas is better use the Il-76 because the range. The An-12 cannot load more half of payload for big travels

    In war conditions the ammount of load transported has increased dramatically, and this is the job for Il-76, that in fact was the replacement for An-12 in the VTA regiments, the first version had arround 33 tons of payload

    If you look some russian airbases, always there are any Il-76 deployed, usually not An-12
    in the bases aboard: Armenia, Kirguistan, Siria or Libia, always there are Il-76

    Then I think the better is modernize to Il-76MD-M and operate until 2040-2045, to replace the current An-12, that in fact there are only about 3 dozens in service or a little more, waiting for better times for launch a new mediun transport

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E 03/01/25, 09:27 am

    The milatry cargo airplane productuon should be focused in the Il-476 and versions. It is necesary to produce at least 12 per year for the next 10-15 years wrote:
    It would be good if the production could be secured with a contract for another 36 aircraft over 6 years with the option for another 3 per year, i.e. 36+18.

    It is important to keep the 6 in the year. It is also important to take the maintenance for the many PS-90A engines to a new level. After all, this engine is picking up more and more speed and a replacement should include. Air transport and logistics for this will take no more than 2 days.

    If we see a whole 7 new IL-476 in 2025 and then 8 in 2026 and then 9 in 2027, it will be all the more beautiful. But it is important to keep the 6 in the year absolutely.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole 03/01/25, 09:56 am

    IL-78M-90A is mixed transport and tanker
    There were signed a contract for 10, but it is not clear when they will start to produce Il-78M-90A.

    For the moment all the production is for Il-476, the year rate production is not enough

    That´s my point. The Il-78M-90A can be converted from a tanker to a transport and back. Just as the
    original Il-78. In my opinion they should switch production from the "simple" Il-76MD-90A transporter to
    the more flexible Il-78M-90A.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS 03/01/25, 12:01 pm

    AWACS gap is concerning. I admit I don't understand why they are not producing Helios RLD type of UAVs like cakes, they are a must right now.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB 03/01/25, 06:29 pm

    Russian industry dont have enough capacity in the middle of the war to manofacture these new airplanes

    Can't really blame the war for this situation, they have been trying to ramp up production for quite some time now and it does not seem to be working.

    Wasn't there a case where someone involved in the production of the aircraft got arrested for corruption or something?

    Someone needs to look through this situation and work out what the problems are and sort them out properly so production can start properly.

    The idea behind the Il-276 was to enable it to go into production quickly and also to offer commonality with the Il-476s too... much like the Su-75 is to the Su-57...

    The milatry cargo airplane productuon should be focused in the Il-476 and versions. It is necesary to produce at least 12 per year for the next 10-15 years

    They should be building more factories to allow the Il-276 to also be produced as the added production capacity can be used to start with to boost Il-476 production and also build a few Il-276 prototypes... which can of course be tested and improved and then when they are ready for serial production they can build them in the new factories and use the factories that are producing the two types of aircraft to balance the production to meet their needs... Il-476 and Il-276 will be used by civil and military users and should be rather popular...

    fill the gap purchasing several dozens of the chinese Y-9, the modern chinese version of An-12

    They are able to make their own planes... why fund the Chinese aircraft industry... the Chinese don't seem keen to buy Russian aircraft ATM.

    The Il-276 should be a significant improvement on the An-12, and will be something Russia can export too.


    purchase to Brasil the C-390 and operate a BRICS airplane

    Brazil makes all the parts in the C-390 including engines and avionics?

    Why would Russia buy a foreign plane and have to deal with that sanctions bullshit all over again?

    Focusing on building large transports is definitely smart move, large plane can fill in for small one unlike vice versa

    I disagree.... you need both because some loads and some destinations don't require big aircraft or can handle big aircraft...

    Smaller aircraft make good sense depending on the route.

    Furthermore the il-212 could probably be able to carry 10-12 tons payload, so help partially cover this niche as well. Hopefully it will not be long before that airplane will be ready.

    Hopefully the experience with the above wing engine design the Il-276 can also use that engine arrangement for rough field performance and STOL performance...

    If the decision is not being made urgently and the aircraft need to be made in 2029 then they clearly have time to decide... production and investment into the Tu-214 should make the Tu-330 more viable, but I think an aircraft that is a reduced size Il-476 would make sense too... if I was making the decision I would pick both...

    The market for an An-12/C-130 replacement is rather large and I suspect both these options would be rather good aircraft that will be affordable and have good performance. Both are jets so both will be faster and able to fly over weather instead of just through it.

    In fact, the An-12 segment could not be necessary if the Il-212 can load 12 or more tons

    With the PD-8 engines they might even manage 15 tons payload, which makes me think the Il-276 might need more powerful engines to perhaps allow a payload like 30-35 tons like the Tu-330, but I still think there will be benefit in producing both.

    Making Il-276s would mean Il-476s could be made if needed, and of course the Tu-214 is a bit of a stopgap aircraft so having an alternative aircraft that could be made during downtimes and lack of demand for the airliner would make sense.

    I suspect the Russian military could also use a few Tu-214s to replace a lot of obsolete types in need of replacement now.

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    Eugenio Argentina
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    Post  Eugenio Argentina 03/01/25, 11:34 pm

    Despite Russia's advances in weapons in recent years, it still has some problems in manufacturing certain types of large weapons: transport aircraft, helicopter carriers and aircraft carriers.
    Unfortunately, it is not on par with China.
    Even the aircraft carrier Kuznetsov has been under repair for years.
    I imagine that certain weapons are being privileged, such as ICBMs, Su-35, Su-57, tanks and drones. Something similar to what Iran does.
    But Russia will have to implement some program to catch up with heavy weapons.


    Cool

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic 04/01/25, 12:47 am

    They just need to finish the existing projects and concentrate on the others. The only things they have lost is some contracts with foreign nation for transport aircrafts like the  EASA/ Airbus C-295, Airbus A400M and  embraer C390.

    Russia currently can produce Il-76 (PS-90 engine) and has the capacity to increase production rates. Soon it will be able to produce new An-124 (D-18T engine)

    Hopefully before 2029 also the il-212 (PD-8 turbofan) will be ready.

    Furthermore in 2028 the small civilian passenger turboprop TVRS-44 "Ladoga" (Klimov TV7-117-ST-02 turboprop)  should be in service.

    They have the time to prepare a military cargo derivative with rear ramp, which could cover the 5 tons payload niche.

    If in the meanwhile they are developing a new generation turboprop with 5000 hp and probably also a turboprop derivative of the PD-8 with 10-12000 hp (they already announced the turboshaft derivative of the PD-8 for the Mi-26 helicopter... Making a turboprop is not difficult from that point.
    These engines will give also more options.

    About capacity... Not all existing assembly plant are at full capacity.

    Probably they need also additional industry for the various parts produced in the supply chain.
    Possibly they have some limit due to personal availability, but they can train more people. And maybe there are available competent individuals in Novorossia, which could be employed.

    In addition to existing plants, if needed new plants can also be built, i.e. in Saratov or in Novorossia.

    Eventually new regions will rejoin Russia as well.

    Those regions will also need industries and jobs.
    They can start with bringin experienced personnel from other regions and slowly building from there.
    After good screening from FSB they could also get people and train them and employ them.

    They can also rotate people from other plants in other parts of Russia.

    In 3 years you can get a decent aerospace mechanic/fitter starting from a high school graduate with previous no practical experience, as long as they have an average intelligence, and they can already be useful during apprenticeship.

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    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL 04/01/25, 02:11 am

    That´s my point. The Il-78M-90A can be converted from a tanker to a transport and back. Just as the
    original Il-78. In my opinion they should switch production from the "simple" Il-76MD-90A transporter to
    the more flexible Il-78M-90A.

    Yes, I think the VTA regiments could have more flexibility with 2 squadrons of Il-76MD-90A and a third squadron of other type, for example the Il-78M-90A
    Time will tell, for the moment is necesary to increase the total number of Il-76 over 200


    Can't really blame the war for this situation, they have been trying to ramp up production for quite some time now and it does not seem to be working.

    the matter of the lack of workforce is because the low birth rates, specially in the 90´s, Europe is importing millions and millions of africans, that have not necessary skills

    is you are manofacturing tanks, missiles, drones, etc... you cannot manofacture other things with a limited workforce. It is a question of priorities

    I dont think there will be new developementes while there is a war against NATO


    They should be building more factories to allow the Il-276 to also be produced as the added production capacity can be used to start with to boost Il-476 production and also build a few Il-276 prototypes... which can of course be tested and improved and then when they are ready for serial production they can build them in the new factories and use the factories that are producing the two types of aircraft to balance the production to meet their needs... Il-476 and Il-276 will be used by civil and military users and should be rather popular...

    then you open an airplane factory in Omsk for example, and close the tank factory ?
    you cannot get skilled workers from air, this dont work like that, you need years

    is necesary optimize the current factories, and the civil aircraft have priority

    for the moment is good enough if the production of IL-76MD-90A and versions reach 12 per year, and the modernization of Il-76MD-M get 4 or 5 per year
    Also is necesary to return to service all An-124 available in the storage, this is more than a dozen

    With the PD-8 engines they might even manage 15 tons payload, which makes me think the Il-276 might need more powerful engines to perhaps allow a payload like 30-35 tons like the Tu-330, but I still think there will be benefit in producing both.

    Making Il-276s would mean Il-476s could be made if needed, and of course the Tu-214 is a bit of a stopgap aircraft so having an alternative aircraft that could be made during downtimes and lack of demand for the airliner would make sense.

    I suspect the Russian military could also use a few Tu-214s to replace a lot of obsolete types in need of replacement now.

    when the Russian air force cancelled the Il-112 this mean the cancel of any ligth aircaft, this is a segment not necesary

    I dont see Russia to make two aircraft in the segment with two turbofans Il-212 and Il-276
    ,.
    aircgraft with 35 or more tons are not in the segment of C-130 or An-12, is more like C-135 or A-400

    Russia has Il-76 for these task, in fact the first version of IL-76 had 33 tons of payload and replaced An-12 as main VTA cargo airplane

    I see more necesary a cargo airplane of the type of C-27J, with 12 tons payload or more with PD-8 and a wider cargo bay that An-26, An-72 or C-295

    this can replace the most of job of An-12 , the rest can be done with Il-76

    in fact the An-12 has only a marginal use for internal transport of military districts and can be easily replazed

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir 04/01/25, 03:05 am

    I think perhaps it's time for Ilyushin to dust off a not so old project - the Il-88. The Il-88 lost to the AN-70 and the current Il-276 is just a smaller reworked version of the Il-88.
    The Il-88's 30 tons lifting capacity and a 3000 km range would make it a useful replacement for the An-12. The engine configurations was either four D-236 contra-rotating propfans or two NK-56 turbofans.
    I would prefer the turbofans but use the same PS-90A engine as fitted on the Il-76M-90A.

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    Post  PapaDragon 04/01/25, 03:15 am


    Another consequence of Russia compulsively sucking Ukraine off

    Had they told them to fúck off 20 years ago none of these problems would have existed



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    Mir
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    Post  Mir 04/01/25, 03:23 am

    Antonov had a lot going for them but it all went to shite very quickly.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic 04/01/25, 06:18 am

    AMCXXL wrote:when the Russian air force cancelled the Il-112 this mean the cancel of any ligth aircaft, this is a segment not necesary
    They canceled the il-112 because of huge mistake in the project, not because that segment is completely useless.

    The problem was again having courted Ukraine too long and put resources and money on the an-140 instead of the il-112 in the nineties.
    When they restarted the project 20 years later they also did it half assedly with foreseeable consequences.

    Mir wrote:perhaps it's time for Ilyushin to dust off a not so old project - the Il-88. The Il-88 lost to the AN-70 and the current Il-276 is just a smaller reworked version of the Il-88.
    The Il-88's 30 tons lifting capacity and a 3000 km range would make it a useful replacement for the An-12. The engine configurations was either four D-236 contra-rotating propfans or two NK-56 turbofans.
    I would prefer the turbofans but use the same PS-90A engine as fitted on the Il-76M-90A.

    At this point better to do the Tu-330. Similar max payload (30-35 tons), decent cargo bay size (4m width) and several commonalities with tu-204/214, which is back in production.

    It was already conceived to use the PS-90 but could be updated to the PD-16 if needed.


    PapaDragon wrote:Another consequence of Russia compulsively sucking Ukraine off

    Had they told them to fúck off 20 years ago none of these problems would have existed
    As far as Antonov, the mistake was not to dismantle completely the aircraft factories in Kiev and Kharkov after they asked for independence (together with each other strategic industry in 404).they could have rebuild them in Smolensk or Kursk .

    But what was completely absurd was leaving the IP of the soviet projects with the newly independent post soviet nation.  Completely crazy. Russia was the predecessor and the legal successor of soviet union. It should have kept all IP of all industries in soviet union...

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    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL 04/01/25, 07:36 am

    @Rodion_Romanovic

    when the Russian air force cancelled the Il-112 this mean the cancel of any ligth aircaft, this is a segment not necesary
    They canceled the il-112 because of huge mistake in the project, not because that segment is completely useless.

    The problem was again having courted Ukraine too long and put resources and money on the an-140 instead of the il-112 in the nineties.
    When they restarted the project 20 years later they also did it half assedly with foreseeable consequences.

    the Il-112 was an aberration, too fusselage for only 5 t of cargo and a weak engine
    5 tons of payload is ridiculous nowadays for a big power like Russia, must be discarded

    the current tendency is a large payload, the C-27 started with 5,5 tons the C-27J has 11,5 of max payload
    the C-295 has 9,5 but has a narrow cargo bay only good for paratroopers

    Russia need a larger cargoplane, Shoigu ordered enlarge the payload of several An-72 of thr Navy and the lastest versions of An-72/An-74 has 9-10 tons of payload with a MTOW of 36-38t
    The only handicap of An-72 is the cargo bay that is not wide and tall enoung

    I bet for a Il-212 similar to C-27J with PD-8 and a payload 12 to 15 tons, then can replace An-26, An-72 and An-12 , and the rest for Il-76 that is the main cargo plane of VKS




    Last edited by AMCXXL on 07/01/25, 06:25 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir 04/01/25, 08:26 am

    @AMCXXL
    Whilst I agree that the Il-212 should be quite a bit larger in capacity than the Il-112 it is still well outside the specs to replace the An-12.
    Russia is a big country. They should rather look at something with better specs that can fly long distance and that can deliver 30 tons of cargo.
    The Il-212 should just replace the An-26 and the An-72 - if it can somewhat match the latter's range.

    @Rodion_Romanovic
    I have to agree again that the Tu-330 looks great so far, but Tupelov have a heavy workload already. They should concentrate on the PAK-DA and the new Tu-160's.
    There is also the Tu-22M4 that is still a work in progress. Not to mention the other civil projects you pointed out.
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    Post  Robert.V 04/01/25, 09:43 am

    Mir wrote:I think perhaps it's time for Ilyushin to dust off a not so old project - the Il-88. The Il-88 lost to the AN-70 and the current Il-276 is just a smaller reworked version of the Il-88.
    The Il-88's 30 tons lifting capacity and a 3000 km range would make it a useful replacement for the An-12. The engine configurations was either four D-236 contra-rotating propfans or two NK-56 turbofans.
    I would prefer the turbofans but use the same PS-90A engine as fitted on the Il-76M-90A.


    Or you know they could have gone with Tupolev offerings which were like runner up's.

    Tu-330 with max payload of 35 Tons

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    Tu-230 with a max payload  of 18 tons

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    On top of that both had  unification with Tupolev Tu-204/14 and Tupolev Tu-334.


    Then there was also Tu-130  had a max payload of 6,5 Tons

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    For the Il-76 replacement   There was the Myasishchev M-60VT  cargo/transport and or passenger carrier which had a payload of 60 Tons.
    Not to be confused with  M-60 "Kolovrat" and Katun" which had 30 Ton payloads which were derived from M-60 Perun/Peresvet AKA 60GP-s and 60GP-d  passenger variants. (not to be in turn confused with latter M-60GP which was regional passenger and cargo plane derived from M-60RS proposal)

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    And into latter  perhaps heavier class proposal  Myasishchev M-60VTM for 80 Tons payload.


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    Then there is Myasishchev An-124 and An-225 replacement the M60-200TD proposal  Which was aimed for 250 Tons payload.

    .

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    Post  Mir 04/01/25, 09:15 pm

    @Robert.V

    Myasishchev is at the top of my list when it comes to innovative designs. Most of what we know today as the Tu-160 has it's roots in Myasishchev.
    The most favoured Soviet OKB's took the safe and conservative route - which was quite understandable considering the political landscape a the time Laughing
    The more innovative one's often had to hand over their designs to more favoured OKB's - mostly on political grounds.

    Tupelov did great as a commercial airline designer (a number developed from bombers), but they never really got their military transport designs off the ground. The reason being is that they usually took an airliner as the basis to work from.
    This approach proved impractical for military purposes, but having said that the new Tu-330 and the others that you mention do look very suitable for military application. I just think that they are too busy with other projects at the moment.

    A good example of too much workload is the competition between the Yak-152 and the Su-49 basic trainer designs. Sukhoi actually won the design competition back then but they had so much going on that they simply could not fund the project.

    For the reasons above Ilyushin seems to be the logical choice + they have vast experience in military cargo plane designs. The other - no less important fact - is that Ilyushin and Myasishchev merged in 2014.

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    Post  GarryB 04/01/25, 11:16 pm

    Despite Russia's advances in weapons in recent years, it still has some problems in manufacturing certain types of large weapons: transport aircraft, helicopter carriers and aircraft carriers.
    Unfortunately, it is not on par with China.

    Making everything for yourself is not easy... no western country can do it... especially the US.

    You could say Russia is not at Chinas level when it comes to production but you could argue that most of the best stuff Russia has is the best anywhere, and even their standard stuff is very good. China has a lot of new stuff and seems to be taking ideas from somewhere that knows what they are doing... I would not say they might be crap but they are certainly untested so in terms of production they are very good and they seem to be good at design and also happy to buy designs to improve their products, but whether their military can perform on a real battlefield against a real enemy without assistance is another question.

    On paper Saudi Arabia had the best stuff the west could make and they got their arses handed to them by the Houthies.

    But then Britain and France and the US and the Soviets have all felt defeat at the hands of smaller countries willing to fight like Vietnam and Afghanistan and Somalia etc etc.

    Even the aircraft carrier Kuznetsov has been under repair for years.

    That is actually quite normal. Most aircraft carriers spend 1/3rd of their lives in refit and repair, the other 2/3rds is training and operationally ready.

    If you look at those two British aircraft carriers it seems to be the other way around, and even if they were both perfect there is nothing to escort them.

    China is learning to build and gaining experience all at once, and good for them... there is lots to learn.

    But Russia will have to implement some program to catch up with heavy weapons.

    Russias real problem is that for the last 30 years they have been buying western aircraft for all sorts of things Russian aircraft should have been bought for, but they didn't.

    So now the western planes are no longer available they need to completely replace their civilian airline and cargo fleet at a time when their military cargo and airline based aircraft also need replacing so it has created an enormous bottleneck... made worse with the bottleneck of decent useful domestic engines.

    Once they sort the engines out the aircraft can be made and when they start getting foreign customers interested in their aircraft then foreign production can be set up too, which should help things as well moving forward.

    The irony is that before the life cycle of an aircraft meant there were too many designers and not enough designs needed because you don't need a Russian designer for a purchase of Boeing or Airbus or other types.

    Now the design departments are working and it is great.

    Delays are normal and the customer can just realise this was all their own fault for not buying Russian products in the first place.

    Soon it will be able to produce new An-124 (D-18T engine)

    It is not worth the problems flying internationally with such an aircraft. Let them bring the planes they have out of storage and get them flying and fit them with all Russian components and also build a prototype Il-106 or mini twin engined Slon... whichever they are planning to make and make a few prototypes of that amongst the An-124 refurbishments of stored and then in service aircraft... including Russian friendly civilian An-124s and by that time they should be ready to produce some An-22 replacements which would be cheaper and probably more useful than the An-124s themselves for most customers.

    For some customers the An-124 might not even be big enough which means a full sized Slon with four engines could be built with enlarged wing and lengthened fuselage... and then you have the two planes that can replace the An-124... keep the An-124s going but they don't need any new planes.

    An H tail version of the Mini Slon/Il-106 or the Slon would allow a replacement for the An-225 and also the old Myasishchev bomber conversion used to carry large external loads.

    They have the time to prepare a military cargo derivative with rear ramp, which could cover the 5 tons payload niche.

    Except with the Il-114 it seems they have improved power and reliability of the engines so the Il-112V is probably going to go ahead eventually anyway.. if the Il-212 doesn't make both the Il-112V and Ladoga redundant.

    Remember the Il-212 is essentially a rather more powerful An-72, which was actually intended to replace the An-24/5/6 in the first place.

    In addition to existing plants, if needed new plants can also be built, i.e. in Saratov or in Novorossia.

    It would be a bit hypocritical of them to build weapons factories in old Ukraine while demanding new Ukraine be demilitariised.

    Civilian ship building and holiday resorts are going to grow like weeds, and civilian production for aircraft and ships can grow there but I would not like to see military production in that region...

    Not despite the history... because of the history of the region.

    I dont think there will be new developementes while there is a war against NATO

    As long as there is a hostile HATO next door there wont be airbus and boeing purchases, which means Tupolev and Ilyusion and even MiG and Sukhoi can cash in... this is very good for Russia and very stupid and short sighted for the few human settlements locked inside HATO and the EU. Razz


    when the Russian air force cancelled the Il-112 this mean the cancel of any ligth aircaft, this is a segment not necesary

    My understanding was that it was not cancelled, it was frozen until a suitable engine was available... and with the Il-114 development it sounds like they have improved engine power and also reliability so they could continue with the programme if they wanted to.

    Another aircraft using the same engine (Il-112V, Il-114, and Mi-38 as well as several heavy drones like Altius) is good for numbers and availability of parts and experience support staff, but of course if the Il-212 is successful in the 15-18 ton payload class then perhaps the Il-112V becomes less urgent and it can replace the An-24/5/6 and An-72, and perhaps even operate in many roles the An-12 previously performed.

    Experience with the above wing mounted engine for the Il-212 could be used with the Il-276 to allow short rough field operations and perhaps a increased power engine could allow a payload and takeoff weight boost to increase range and payload to 30 tons perhaps.

    They have plenty of options and decisions to make but which engines are ready will influence their options moving forward.


    I dont see Russia to make two aircraft in the segment with two turbofans Il-212 and Il-276

    They are already designed. The Il-212 is an Il-112V with overwing jet engines, and the Il-276 is an Il-476 with smaller wings and shorter fuselage and two engines instead of four.

    Scaling airliners up and down to increase or decrease capacity or extend range is perfectly normal and common and can create rather good variations of existing types to make them even better if the niche for that capability is real.

    I see more necesary a cargo airplane of the type of C-27J, with 12 tons payload or more with PD-8 and a wider cargo bay that An-26, An-72 or C-295

    this can replace the most of job of An-12 , the rest can be done with Il-76

    Which would be the Il-212...

    in fact the An-12 has only a marginal use for internal transport of military districts and can be easily replazed

    The beauty of the current plans is that even if the Il-276 is not that great and they don't want more than 50, they can make 50 and then revert to making more Il-476s in those factories.

    The number of different An-12 variants was enormous from ECM and ESM and even a version with an ejection seat system behind the tail that could be rotated 360 degrees to simulate ejections at different altitudes and speeds safely for different aircraft roll rates. To eject at 100m inverted the An-12 simply flew at 100m and rolled the ejection seat behind the tail 180 degrees so it was ejecting straight down and do the test... no risk to the plane having to fly at 100m inverted to test the ejection seat performance...

    An-12 is also an interesting size for command aircraft and other roles like jammer or inflight refueling or light AEW aircraft or AWACS type.

    The Russian AF probably has a few that are used in all sorts of roles that are not transport roles that an Il-276 could replace and its commonality with the Il-476s already in service means you don't really have an odd plane out with few airframes and nonstandard bits and pieces than if you kept those An-12s in use.

    Worst case scenario is it is crap... it just doesn't work... well you can use the factories that made it to increase production of the Il-476.

    I suspect an above wing jet engine arrangement would allow rough field operations and would make it a more useful aircraft than just making a two engined Il-476.

    I also like the Tu-330 and with the serial production of the Tu-214 I think it is worth making too... for domestic and export use... western planes are just too expensive and too easily subject to sanctions...

    Perhaps in time Brazil might learn that using Russian components and perhaps Indian and Chinese components will make their products a better export prospect for other BRICS countries... or not.

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    Post  GarryB 05/01/25, 01:58 am

    there is no An-25 plane!

    Quite right, I was thinking of the hot and high An-32.

    But the An-225 design could be shortened & widened & with 4 suitable engines it could be as good, if not better, than the Slon.

    New materials and design invented since the 1980s suggests that is not likely.

    I think perhaps it's time for Ilyushin to dust off a not so old project - the Il-88. The Il-88 lost to the AN-70 and the current Il-276 is just a smaller reworked version of the Il-88.

    Commonality with the Il-476 is what made the Il-276 more appealing, it should be a further improved design over the Il-88, but considering they are reworking the Il-112V to the Il-212 with overwing engines like on the An-72 for STOL improvements and also better rough field FOD protection, perhaps applying overwing installations to the Il-276 might be the best solution too.

    It would give a similar aircraft to the Il-88 that has commonality and shared features and performance with the Il-476 with the added bonus of improved STOL performance and FOD protection.

    Being an Il-476 with shorter smaller wings and shorter fuselage and only two engines should allow production to alternate between making the two types depending on which type is more urgent at the time.

    Antonov had a lot going for them but it all went to shite very quickly.

    They believed their own propaganda and thought Russia would not survive without them.

    The EU had similar delusions regarding the huge amount of cheap gas they bought from Russia... if the EU didn't buy it, Russia would be stuck and beg for any terms the EU demands... not.

    The west has been infiltrated with Ukronazis who believe that the Ukraine is the best part of Russia and without it Russia will collapse and can never be great.

    Pretty clear it was holding them back in many ways in every case... (EU and western tentacles in Russia also held them back and sabotaged everything they could).

    They canceled the il-112 because of huge mistake in the project, not because that segment is completely useless.

    They froze the Il-112V because the engine was not powerful or reliable enough to make it work.

    Work on the engine for the Il-114 seems to have improved reliability and power to useful levels, so if they wanted to unfreeze it they could...

    The problem was again having courted Ukraine too long and put resources and money on the an-140 instead of the il-112 in the nineties.
    When they restarted the project 20 years later they also did it half assedly with foreseeable consequences.

    Can't disagree with you there but fundamentally the Il-112 is a good aircraft that is designed to do what they want... replace the An-24/26 with enlarged internal dimensions to allow larger payloads to be carried. This effects various performance indicators that make it seem inferior but if the size increase is necessary then it is what it is.

    It does not need to be world breaking, just to replace obsolete Soviet types no longer available for purchase new.

    At this point better to do the Tu-330. Similar max payload (30-35 tons), decent cargo bay size (4m width) and several commonalities with tu-204/214, which is back in production.

    Agree, but would like to see an Il-276 with above wing engines in a STOL configuration as it might be rather useful.

    The An-72 is a good plane and the Il-212 should be a good replacement for it and the An-24/26/32.

    But what was completely absurd was leaving the IP of the soviet projects with the newly independent post soviet nation. Completely crazy. Russia was the predecessor and the legal successor of soviet union. It should have kept all IP of all industries in soviet union...

    And they continued with that nonsense with the Yak-152 and its "german" engine. If Russia funded the development then they own the engine design... why agree to allow it to be made in Germany when it was to be used by the Russian military.

    But the west are our new friends so it will be OK.... What a Face

    the Il-112 was an aberration, too fusselage for only 5 t of cargo and a weak engine

    The aircraft it was replacing carried 5 tons of cargo, and the engine was a standard type that will be used in Il-114s and Mi-38s and several models of medium drones like Altius, so they are making them and deploying them around the place so using that engine made sense.

    The main problem was the aircraft was ready before the engine was and it was underpowered and unreliable at that time.

    They continued to work on the engine for the Il-114 and presumably also for the Mi-38 and Drone projects and it seems to have gone from 3,500hp to 4,500hp and reliability has improved too so what is not to like.

    Of course they decided to go for the Il-212, which is essentially history repeating because the An-72 was supposed to replace the An-24/26/32 too... if they can get that to work they may decide they don't need an Il-112V, but of course it would be cheaper to operate than an Il-212 and commercial operators will prefer the Il-112V for some roles.

    In five years they will have a much better engine situation with mature engines and as they build more airports and flights expand then they might decide to finish the Il-112V or they might decide not to.

    They have the aircraft design and now they have the engine so it shouldn't be hard to finish that if they want to.

    If they want to.

    If they don't make the Il-112V it is quite likely they will end up with a version of the Ladoga for the transport role which means a cargo version of a Let 410 really.

    Is that better?


    the current tendency is a large payload, the C-27 started with 5,5 tons the C-27J has 11,5 of max payload
    the C-295 has 9,5 but has a narrow cargo bay only good for paratroopers

    The Il-112V has reduced performance because of its wider fuselage for more bulky cargo... more engine power would improve performance in terms of weight, but to add internal capacity would likely not be needed and would be more of a problem making the Il-112 design superior to those other types.

    I bet for a Il-212 similar to C-27J with PD-8 and a payload 12 to 15 tons, then can replace An-26, An-72 and An-12 , and the rest for Il-76 that is the main cargo plane of VKS

    The perfect solution for light transports... the Il-114 is the troop transport equivalent of the An-24 and the Il-112V was supposed to be an enlarged cargo replacement for the An-26.

    The Il-212 could be developed in troop and cargo models to replace them all, but smaller cheaper aircraft like the Il-112V could still be in demand in places where 5 tons is enough and the extra engine power could be used to increase fuel capacity to extend range.

    Whilst I agree that the Il-212 should be quite a bit larger in capacity than the Il-112 it is still well outside the specs to replace the An-12.

    They would have to analyse current and projected use to work out if current aircraft could do the job... therefore new planes with similar payload capacities and perhaps extra fuel to extend range would be a good purchase or if increases in payload might require increases in payload and flight range might be required.

    There is no reason why the Il-276 can use more powerful engines than the Il-476... they don't need to be physically interchangeable... a couple of PD-18s or even PD-20s might give it a 30 to 35 ton payload capacity plus a MTOW increase to allow much greater flight distances... and with inflight refuelling it can be further improved by taking off with reduced fuel and topping up beyond MTOW after getting airborne.

    I also think the Tu-330 makes sense in the heavier payload range no matter what they do with the Il-276... I think over wing STOL engine configuration would be useful for the lighter aircraft.

    The Il-212 should just replace the An-26 and the An-72 - if it can somewhat match the latter's range.

    With PD-8 engines the Il-212 should have quite a bit more force... the An-72s engines are about 6.5 tons force, while the PD-8 are supposed to be 8 tons force.

    That is 13 tons force compared with 16 tons force so the Il-212 will be physically larger and more bulky but will also have 3 tons more thrust, and I would assume in terms of thrust vectoring the new design should be a bit more sophisticated and effective than the older type.

    I have to agree again that the Tu-330 looks great so far, but Tupelov have a heavy workload already. They should concentrate on the PAK-DA and the new Tu-160's.
    There is also the Tu-22M4 that is still a work in progress. Not to mention the other civil projects you pointed out.

    Once they are in serial production the design team are fault finding so whether the Tu-214 is just a stopgap or becomes a popular export item could determine how much sense the Tu-330 makes.

    I would say a transport in that weight class that already has commonality with an airliner that is widely used would be rather attractive for may countries for which western alternatives are just too expensive and relations are too fragile to commit to something that might come under sanctions for anything at all.


    Then there is Myasishchev An-124 and An-225 replacement the M60-200TD proposal Which was aimed for 250 Tons payload.

    So many interesting aircraft killed by Antonov... and or lack of suitable engines...

    Now new engines are being developed and more importantly an engine family that allows new engines in a range of power categories to be made with new technology and design relatively quickly a lot of old designs can be dusted off and reevaluated... some were excellent and just needed the right engine, or were cancelled politically because they made an Antonov product look unnecessary...

    A good example of too much workload is the competition between the Yak-152 and the Su-59 basic trainer designs. Sukhoi actually won the design competition back then but they had so much going on that they simply could not fund the project.

    Careful... an unscrupulous person might misconstrue that as potentially a reason not to load up any one design bureau with too many important projects lest they be overwhelmed and start to fail or under perform.... Twisted Evil
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    Post  George1 05/01/25, 02:16 am

    Il-276 I guess it's a dead project. Maybe that's why they decided to go for il-212 which turbofan engines

    My opinion is that they should proceed with il-112 maybe with an enlarged version with 4 instead of 2 turboprop engines.
    And also continue to produce more il-476s.
    Then they could design a modern strategic airlifter.
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    Post  Fender 05/01/25, 02:59 am

    I wonder why the Russians don't make a stretched version of the An-124 like the program IL-76MF. This will save R&D budget.
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    Post  Mir 05/01/25, 03:32 am

    @George1

    Il-276 I guess it's a dead project. Maybe that's why they decided to go for il-212 which turbofan engines.

    The Il-276 is basically a rebranding of the Il-214 that was a joint project with India. Both have a cargo capacity of around 20 tons and should replace the An-12.
    The Il-212 should be quite a bit smaller than the 276, but slightly larger than the Il-112. The 212 is the actual replacement for the 112 but the props will be replaced by turbofans.
    The 212 plane is supposed to replace the An-26.

    @ Fender

    I could be wrong but I don't think Russia needs a stretched An-124. What they need is more An-124's.

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    Post  mnztr 05/01/25, 07:59 am

    Unfortunately, it is not on par with China. wrote:

    No one is on par with China in the manufacturing arena, and probably in Construction as well. They have taken supply chain management and automation to a whole new level. The Xiaomi SU 7 takes 76 seconds to assemble ....WTF Huawei has 15 people mananging 7 cell phone lines that make 1.7m phones a day. That is ALL The labour. 17 sec of labor per phone. ... it spins your head.

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