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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #18

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:48 am

    Mortar and artillery squads in the Border Service?

    KIEV, July 29. /TASS/. Ukraine's State Border Service has begun to train mortar detachments for protection of the border, the service said in a report on Wednesday. "Training of mortar detachments has begun at the training centers of the State Border Service," it said. "They will be assigned to the border commanders’ offices of rapid reaction."

    The training involves both officers and privates of the border troops and they are organized at the schools of the State Border Service and the Ukrainian Armed Forces. For instance, a center located in the Cherkassy region is training junior personnel for the commandants’ offices located on the border. A total of 40 servicemen have been subscribed to the program. "The current training plan also involved eleven officers of the border forces who are acquire the basics of operating the artillery units and mortar crews," the report said.
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:52 am

    At least Poro is consistent, well after he left Minsk anyway.

    KIEV, July 29. /TASS/. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has ruled out the possibility of Ukraine’s troubled Donbas getting a special status.

    The draft constitution "does not envisage a special status for Donbas," he said during a working trip to the western Ukrainian city of Lviv. "There will be no federalization," he went on. "Ukraine has been and will remain a unitary state," the president said.

    Constitutional reform is one of the basic demands in the Minsk Package of Measures for the settlement in Ukraine, approved by the Normandy Four leaders and signed by the parties in the conflict in Minsk on February 12. In line with the document, Ukraine must before the end of 2015 adopt a new constitution envisaging as a key element decentralization (with due regard for specific features of certain areas of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, coordinated with representatives of these regions). The second important requirement is that the special status of separate districts of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions should be fixed permanently in Ukraine’s new constitution.

    On Monday, July 27, draft amendments went to the Constitutional Court of Ukraine. However, Donbas representatives said that the submitted to the Constitutional Court amendments drafted by the administration of Ukrainian President Pyotr Poroshenko were at variance with the Minsk principles.

    Kiev should include the guarantees of a special status in the main text of the Constitution, not in any transitional provisions, they say. "The political privileges of the Donbas region must be enshrined in the Constitution. This concerns, above all, the relations with Kiev on the basis of mutually-advantageous treaties and agreements. We will never agree to something less," head of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic (LPR) Igor Plotnitsky said.

    Normandy Four leaders have repeatedly emphasized a need to comply with all points in the political section of the Package of Measures. "In particular, it is important to reach progress as to the scheduled for autumn local elections, as well as the status of the separatists-controlled regions," Christiane Wirtz, deputy spokesperson of the German government, said after their telephone conversation last week.

    "The Russian president called on the Ukrainian side to follow the letter and spirit of the Minsk Complex of Measures, in particular, to agree with the self-proclaimed republics of Donetsk and Luhansk and to adopt permanent legislation on the special status of corresponding areas and an amnesty law, as well as to determine modalities and procedures for conducting local elections," the Kremlin press service said then.
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    Post  whir on Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:59 am

    JohninMK wrote:Mortar and artillery squads in the Border Service?
    National Guard is taking over Border Service a border post at a time, and the smuggling business in the process.
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:07 am

    This was written 80 years ago, it could have been last month.

    "There is no human force capable of preventing Ukraine, once it is torn away from Russia and transformed into an independent country, from becoming a destination for con-men from all over the world who are unwelcome in their own countries, capitalists, capital-seekers, business organizers, technicians and merchants, speculators and schemers, thugs and pimps: Germans, French, Belgians, Italians and Americans would find assistance by local or nearby Russians, Poles, Armenians, Greeks, and the most numerous and important of all, the Jews. It would be a veritable League of Nations of sorts. This elemental force, with the participation of the cleverest and most business-savvy Ukrainians, will become the country's leadership elite. It would be a a most remarkable elite, since no other country could boast such a rich collection of international low-life.
    Ukraine would become an abscess on Europe's body; and people who dream of establishing a cultured, healthy, and powerful Ukrainian nation that could mature in its own state would quickly realize that, instead of a state of their own they have gotten an international corporation and instead of healthy development only rapidly progressing rot and decay.

    Those who believe that, given Ukraine's geographic location, its size, and the state of the Ukrainian element, its spiritual and material resources, and the role the Ukrainian question plays in the global economy and politics, it could be otherwise has no imagination whatsoever.


    http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/hands-off-ukraine-warning-from-past.html
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    Post  auslander on Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:09 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Professor PapaDragon could have told them this a year ago... Cool

    ''Ukraine Heading for Yugoslavia Scenario – Polish Media''

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025185527.html

    In a way I feel almost sorry for the 'ordinary workers and peasants' in Ukraine. Almost. Too many of them have jumped throughout the land for me to really feel sorry for them. The steady build to anarchy and chaos has been going on for some years now and as long as this fact did not affect one personally not a one said a single word. Now they are a totally unarmed populace facing what is in effect the brown shirts and black shirts of Germany circa 1935-1938. Still and all, it would take but one veteran with a purloined automat to shoot some of these thugs down in the streets and the fight will be on to rid the country of the oligarchs and the armed thugs. Sadly, this has not happened and will not happen.

    20 years from now Ukraine will again be the farm and back shop of Russia, a sleepy and generally agricultural backwater with some spots of manufacturing and mining. All the young best and brightest, if they survive, will have left long before, most to Russia proper, many to EU if EU will have them. Many will not survive the coming disasters and again the graveyards will be full. How many Pushkins, how many Einsteins, how many Rachmaninoffs, how many Tolstoys will we lose this time? It is a tragedy in the making and there's not a thing we can do about it, we can only observe as this Dance Macabre progresses to it's hideous fruition.
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:34 am

    auslander wrote:20 years from now Ukraine will again be the farm and back shop of Russia, a sleepy and generally agricultural backwater with some spots of manufacturing and mining.

    You mean Europe.
    I don't see Brüssel losing the Ukraine to Russia once the dominant American influence in the Ukraine is removed.
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    Post  auslander on Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:59 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    auslander wrote:20 years from now Ukraine will again be the farm and back shop of Russia, a sleepy and generally agricultural backwater with some spots of manufacturing and mining.

    You mean Europe.
    I don't see Brüssel losing the Ukraine to Russia once the dominant American influence in the Ukraine is removed.

    Brüssel has nothing to do with it, their 'foreign policy' has proven to be inept time and time again and they have no power beyond what is in their minds. How strong is their army?

    Russia will never allow an EU presence in Ukraine, not now, not in the future. Russia is using soft power at the moment but if needs be when Ukraine dissolves in to total anarchy Russia may, operative being 'may', use hard power to restore order on her borders.

    In the end 'Brüssel' may get one or two far west oblasti but they will be no loss to Ukraine and an albatross around the neck of Poland and the remains of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire.
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    Post  Flagship Victory on Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:20 am

    more trouble brewing in Odessa Wink

    https://www.rt.com/news/311099-bessarabia-peoples-governor-saakashvili-ukraine/
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:22 am

    auslander wrote:Brüssel has nothing to do with it, their 'foreign policy' has proven to be inept time and time again and they have no power beyond what is in their minds. How strong is their army?

    Strong enough.

    auslander wrote:Russia will never allow an EU presence in Ukraine, not now, not in the future. Russia is using soft power at the moment but if needs be when Ukraine dissolves in to total anarchy Russia may, operative being 'may', use hard power to restore order on her borders.

    In the end 'Brüssel' may get one or two far west oblasti but they will be no loss to Ukraine and an albatross around the neck of Poland and the remains of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire.

    There is a lot of Ukrainian territory between the "far west" and the Russian border and most of the population there was turned against Russia.
    How is Russia supposed to prevent an EU presence in Ukraine? The Kremlin has even accepted the EEA that ties Kiev to Brüssel.
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    Post  Flagship Victory on Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:37 am

    Ukraine wants 1,240 Javelin anti tank missiles from the US. What do you think? Will Ukraine get?

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/ukraine-wants-just-1240-us-javelin-missiles-to-fight-rebels/526465.html
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    Post  auslander on Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:46 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    auslander wrote:Brüssel has nothing to do with it, their 'foreign policy' has proven to be inept time and time again and they have no power beyond what is in their minds. How strong is their army?

    Strong enough.

    auslander wrote:Russia will never allow an EU presence in Ukraine, not now, not in the future. Russia is using soft power at the moment but if needs be when Ukraine dissolves in to total anarchy Russia may, operative being 'may', use hard power to restore order on her borders.

    In the end 'Brüssel' may get one or two far west oblasti but they will be no loss to Ukraine and an albatross around the neck of Poland and the remains of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire.

    There is a lot of Ukrainian territory between the "far west" and the Russian border and most of the population there was turned against Russia.
    How is Russia supposed to prevent an EU presence in Ukraine? The Kremlin has even accepted the EEA that ties Kiev to Brüssel.

    I have no doubts that if it comes to war your 35,000 soldiers, sailors and air forces will fight bravely as they always have, but in the end numbers will tell if it comes to that and trust me, although we hope and fervently pray it does not come to War, Brüssel and EU will lose. Will the Russian Army occupy Brüssel? No, but you will be visited with destruction,and more is the pity for that. All this could have been solved with open and honest negotiation but for whatever reason this did not happen. As a result many innocent and not so innocent will die and their blood is firmly on the hands of EU and USA.

    When, not if but when, Ukraine dissolves in to total anarchy and civil strife, who is going to come in and put paid to the fighting and killing? EU? Not hardly. The Ukrainians will turn to their fraternal brothers to the north and east and beg them to come in and restore peace and calm. Never forget, most of central and east Ukraine has a long tradition of friendship, brotherhood and intermarriage with Russia, the two countries are virtually as one.

    As I said, and I stand by what I said, in the end Ukraine will be a brother, again, to Russia, and Russia will take care of Ukraine as she always has.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:52 am

    US, EU 'Give Up' Ukraine to Seek Russian Political Support

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    After inciting the Ukrainian conflict that led the country to a civil war and brought it to the verge of economic collapse, the West has now realized that Ukraine isn’t worth much, at least not as much as establishing a working political relationship with Russia, US political journalist Brian Whitmore said.

    The United States and the European Union (EU) are "selling out" Ukraine to Russia to gain the Kremlin's support in dealing with Iran's nuclear program and looking for Moscow's approval of taking out Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad, the Atlantic Magazine reported.

    According to Brian Whitmore, over the past few weeks, the Europeans and Americans have been busy trying to strike a political deal with Vladimir Putin.

    "The United States and Europe might give up Ukraine in exchange for Russia's support of securing a deal to curb Iran's nuclear program. Additionally, Washington has been seeking Moscow's backing in securing a managed, orderly, and negotiated exit for Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad," Whitmore said in the Atlantic.

    Whitmore speculates that the secret deal between the superpowers started when the US government praised Moscow's role in reaching the Iranian nuclear agreement.

    Then, US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland went to Kiev and persuaded Ukrainian lawmakers to make changes in their constitution to recognize the special status of the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics. Something that Kiev has been long opposed to, Whitmore argued.

    The new constitutional proposition, which was forced to Kiev by the US government according to Whitmore, also includes a decentralization reform that will make Ukraine a federal state, changing its administrative and territorial system. After the law is passed, there will be three levels of governance: municipal, district and regional (or provincial). The central (federal) government will always be represented at any local level by officials appointed by Kiev at the discretion of the president.

    The last connecting point for Whitmore was the event that took place a couple of months ago, when US Secretary of State John Kerry traveled to Sochi for talks with Putin about Iran, Syria and Ukraine. It was during the bilateral talks, the two countries allegedly decided to cut the deal.

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    Post  Flagship Victory on Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:56 am

    PapaDragon wrote:US, EU 'Give Up' Ukraine to Seek Russian Political Support

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    The United States and the European Union (EU) are "selling out" Ukraine to Russia to gain the Kremlin's support in dealing with Iran's nuclear program and looking for Moscow's approval of taking out Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad, the Atlantic Magazine reported.

    Dream on, buddy Cool Gorbachev made the mistake of trusting westerners when he dissolved USSR.
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    Post  par far on Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:08 am

    Flagship Victory wrote:Ukraine wants 1,240 Javelin anti tank missiles from the US. What do you think? Will Ukraine get?

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/ukraine-wants-just-1240-us-javelin-missiles-to-fight-rebels/526465.html


    Yes, they will get it, they will get with money that the EU and the dreaded IMF is going to "loan" them.
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    Post  auslander on Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:08 am

    PapaDragon wrote:US, EU 'Give Up' Ukraine to Seek Russian Political Support

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    After inciting the Ukrainian conflict that led the country to a civil war and brought it to the verge of economic collapse, the West has now realized that Ukraine isn’t worth much, at least not as much as establishing a working political relationship with Russia, US political journalist Brian Whitmore said.

    The United States and the European Union (EU) are "selling out" Ukraine to Russia to gain the Kremlin's support in dealing with Iran's nuclear program and looking for Moscow's approval of taking out Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad, the Atlantic Magazine reported.

    According to Brian Whitmore, over the past few weeks, the Europeans and Americans have been busy trying to strike a political deal with Vladimir Putin.

    "The United States and Europe might give up Ukraine in exchange for Russia's support of securing a deal to curb Iran's nuclear program. Additionally, Washington has been seeking Moscow's backing in securing a managed, orderly, and negotiated exit for Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad," Whitmore said in the Atlantic.

    Whitmore speculates that the secret deal between the superpowers started when the US government praised Moscow's role in reaching the Iranian nuclear agreement.

    Then, US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland went to Kiev and persuaded Ukrainian lawmakers to make changes in their constitution to recognize the special status of the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics. Something that Kiev has been long opposed to, Whitmore argued.

    The new constitutional proposition, which was forced to Kiev by the US government according to Whitmore, also includes a decentralization reform that will make Ukraine a federal state, changing its administrative and territorial system. After the law is passed, there will be three levels of governance: municipal, district and regional (or provincial). The central (federal) government will always be represented at any local level by officials appointed by Kiev at the discretion of the president.

    The last connecting point for Whitmore was the event that took place a couple of months ago, when US Secretary of State John Kerry traveled to Sochi for talks with Putin about Iran, Syria and Ukraine. It was during the bilateral talks, the two countries allegedly decided to cut the deal.    


    Wishful thinking. Russia will not abandon President Assad and Kiev will never give even limited autonomy to Donbass, read Mr. Poroshenko's own words on that subject.
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    Post  par far on Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:09 am

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:US, EU 'Give Up' Ukraine to Seek Russian Political Support

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025186549.html

    The United States and the European Union (EU) are "selling out" Ukraine to Russia to gain the Kremlin's support in dealing with Iran's nuclear program and looking for Moscow's approval of taking out Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad, the Atlantic Magazine reported.

    Dream on, buddy Cool Gorbachev made the mistake of trusting westerners when he dissolved USSR.

    Very true, never ever trust the west. 3rd and 4th grade kids should be allowed to punch Gorbachev in the gut.
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    Post  Flagship Victory on Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:14 am

    par far wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:Ukraine wants 1,240 Javelin anti tank missiles from the US. What do you think? Will Ukraine get?

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/ukraine-wants-just-1240-us-javelin-missiles-to-fight-rebels/526465.html


    Yes, they will get it, they will get with money that the EU and the dreaded IMF is going to "loan" them.

    Would the US supply so many high end missiles to Maidan? I think after US supplied counter mortar radar was captured the US is having second thoughts about supplying high end equipment to Maidan. Russia don't even have fire and forget top attack missiles like Javelin so I don't think the US will give Javelins. I think the US will give artillery and shells which don't have to worry about being captured since Maidan only needs to shell Donesk anyway.
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    Post  auslander on Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:19 am

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    par far wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:Ukraine wants 1,240 Javelin anti tank missiles from the US. What do you think? Will Ukraine get?

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/ukraine-wants-just-1240-us-javelin-missiles-to-fight-rebels/526465.html


    Yes, they will get it, they will get with money that the EU and the dreaded IMF is going to "loan" them.

    Would the US supply so many high end missiles to Maidan? I think after US supplied counter mortar radar was captured the US is having second thoughts about supplying high end equipment to Maidan. Russia don't even have fire and forget top attack missiles like Javelin so I don't think the US will give Javelins. I think the US will give artillery and shells which don't have to worry about being captured since Maidan only needs to shell Donesk anyway.

    You and your clones have got to be about a 14 year old child. Big note posted on the screen of my computer: DO NOT OPEN FLAGSHIP DEFEAT POSTS! Back to the ignor list for you, me boy.
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:34 am

    auslander wrote:When, not if but when, Ukraine dissolves in to total anarchy and civil strife, who is going to come in and put paid to the fighting and killing? EU? Not hardly. The Ukrainians will turn to their fraternal brothers to the north and east and beg them to come in and restore peace and calm. Never forget, most of central and east Ukraine has a long tradition of friendship, brotherhood and intermarriage with Russia, the two countries are virtually as one.

    As I said, and I stand by what I said, in the end Ukraine will be a brother, again, to Russia, and Russia will take care of Ukraine as she always has.

    Don't count on that anymore.

    The number of respondents strongly opposing their family members marrying ethnic Ukrainian migrants spiked from 28 to 42 percent between 2013 and 2014—an outlier in the general trend for somewhat greater acceptance of migrant non-Russian ethnics as marriage partners. In this sense, Russian respondents appeared to be “defraternizing” with Ukrainians (Figure 1) but not other groups. The fact that opposition to marrying ethnic non-Russian migrants on average changed little from 2005 to 2013 further suggests this “defraternizing” was an artifact of changing Russia-Ukraine relations since 2013.[2]

    http://www.ponarseurasia.org/memo/new-wave-russian-nationalism
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    Post  auslander on Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:39 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    auslander wrote:When, not if but when, Ukraine dissolves in to total anarchy and civil strife, who is going to come in and put paid to the fighting and killing? EU? Not hardly. The Ukrainians will turn to their fraternal brothers to the north and east and beg them to come in and restore peace and calm. Never forget, most of central and east Ukraine has a long tradition of friendship, brotherhood and intermarriage with Russia, the two countries are virtually as one.

    As I said, and I stand by what I said, in the end Ukraine will be a brother, again, to Russia, and Russia will take care of Ukraine as she always has.

    Don't count on that anymore.

    The number of respondents strongly opposing their family members marrying ethnic Ukrainian migrants spiked from 28 to 42 percent between 2013 and 2014—an outlier in the general trend for somewhat greater acceptance of migrant non-Russian ethnics as marriage partners. In this sense, Russian respondents appeared to be “defraternizing” with Ukrainians (Figure 1) but not other groups. The fact that opposition to marrying ethnic non-Russian migrants on average changed little from 2005 to 2013 further suggests this “defraternizing” was an artifact of changing Russia-Ukraine relations since 2013.[2]

    http://www.ponarseurasia.org/memo/new-wave-russian-nationalism

    I count on nothing. On the other hand we will attend a wedding at St. Nikolas this weekend, a very formal wedding. One wedding does not make a trend, but even an avalanche starts from but one snowflake.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:42 am

    auslander wrote:.........................................


    Wishful thinking. Russia will not abandon President Assad and Kiev will never give even limited autonomy to Donbass, read Mr. Poroshenko's own words on that subject.
    I'm just posting article here, not agreeing with it. No need to preach to the quire. thumbsup
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    Post  auslander on Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:48 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    auslander wrote:.........................................


    Wishful thinking. Russia will not abandon President Assad and Kiev will never give even limited autonomy to Donbass, read Mr. Poroshenko's own words on that subject.
    I'm just posting article here, not agreeing with it. No need to preach to the quire. thumbsup

    Unnerstood. russia thumbsup Reply was to the article, not you, my friend.
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:57 am

    auslander wrote:I count on nothing.

    You count on the inseparability of Russia and Ukraine.
    The leaders of Russia did the same and they were proven wrong.

    auslander wrote:On the other hand we will attend a wedding at St. Nikolas this weekend, a very formal wedding. One wedding does not make a trend, but even an avalanche starts from but one snowflake.

    Good for you.
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    Post  auslander on Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:04 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    auslander wrote:I count on nothing.

    You count on the inseparability of Russia and Ukraine.
    The leaders of Russia did the same and they were proven wrong.

    auslander wrote:On the other hand we will attend a wedding at St. Nikolas this weekend, a very formal wedding. One wedding does not make a trend, but even an avalanche starts from but one snowflake.

    Good for you.

    I thank you for the pleasure of an interesting debate and we will agree to disagree. No harm in that. It's late now, ladies and gentlemen. Until tomorrow.
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    Post  HeNeArKrXeRn_ on Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:23 am

    So I'm back from a 2 weeks vacation in Russia, and I, ironically, couldn't really follow what was happening in Ukrainistan... even when spending time in next door Rostov.

    Can someone give me a quick overview of what's happening, especially on the Right Sector referendum project.

    OT: I recommend to everyone to go visit Sochi, amazing city for beach-oriented vacation.

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