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    HAL Tejas point defence fighter

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:37 am

    It's way more than just that. It's the mentality of the slave people. The amount of grovelling that comes from the country is pathetic beyond belief.

    It is also the major reason why India will never become a major power. They overspend on garbage and worry about image more than welfare of a state. They want to be part of all the "clubs" and at same time, they want acceptance from the US. That was Russia for a long time till it took them a while to figure out the US will never accept them. It took 20 years. India? It's been like this since the 40's and they never figured it out yet.

    Just go to India and see all the signs of "study and live in: US, UK, Canada, Australia" in other words, Anglo nations. Their love for their former masters is beyond reason tbh.
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    Austin

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    HAL Tejas point defence fighter  - Page 4 Empty Indian Airforce Tejas Mk1 , Mk1A and Mk2 Fighter Program

    Post  Austin Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:41 am

    An updated and good write up on Tejas Program of Indian Airforce

    Tracking The Tejas: The Design Evolution Of An Indian Fighter Part-I

    Tracking The Tejas: The Tejas Mk2 ‘Grows A Pair’ & Becomes The Medium Weight Fighter
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:44 am

    Austin wrote:An updated and good write up on Tejas Program of Indian Airforce

    Tracking The Tejas: The Design Evolution Of An Indian Fighter Part-I

    Tracking The Tejas: The Tejas Mk2 ‘Grows A Pair’ & Becomes The Medium Weight Fighter

    They should just stop that program. Honestly it looks to be a great airplane to replace the mig-21 but the program itself sucks.
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    Post  Austin Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:01 pm

    Tejas program has built an entire End to End Aerospace Industry in India from Designing to Production ...... Starting from Scratch ..We had zilch before that other than lic production.

    If you read carefully about Tejas Mk2 linked above.

    Its capability is better than Mig-35 and slightly better than Gripen-E , The Design of Mk2 is suppose to be the best in Single Engine Fighter of its class.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:38 am

    Second Domestically-Produced Tejas Fighter Jet Experiences Technical Issues in India

    New Delhi (Sputnik): Last week, a major tragedy was averted by a quick-thinking IAF pilot when an a deep penetration Jaguar strike fighter was hit by a bird. As part of a special operating procedure, the small bombs and fuel tank were dropped by the pilot in a safe area.

    An external tank on one of India's domestically-produced light combat Tejas aircraft fell from the sky on Tuesday morning in farmland at Irugur of Coimbatore in the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu. The incident took place during a training session from Sulur, which is also the Tejas' base station .

    "Today morning around 0840hrs local time one fuel drop tank fell off from a Tejas aircraft on a routine sortie. The aircraft landed safely after the incident. No damage was reported on ground. The cause of the incident is being investigated", the IAF said in a statement.

    ​The squadron of the Tejas aircraft named the Flying Daggers or the No. 45 Squadron of the Indian Air Force. The base of the squadron shifted from Bengaluru to the Sulur Air Force station based in Coimbatore in July 2018. The Flying Daggers became the first fighter squadron of the Southern Air Command of the IAF to be headquartered in Thiruvananthapuram.

    On 27 June, a major tragedy averted after a deep penetration Jaguar strike fighter jet crashed into a number of birds soon after take-off from Ambala base station in Punjab. The hit resulted in the failure of one of its engines. Despite the looming emergencies, the young pilot successfully landed the jet at the base and also saved the lives of many civilians in the area adjoining the airfield.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201907021076121038-fuel-tank-of-indias-home-grown-tejas-fighter-jet-fell-down/
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:39 am

    What a very strange article that is... it talks about a Jaguar that flew into a bird and dropped external stores including a drop tank, then it mentions a Tegas dropped a fuel tank and then it talks about the Jaguar again.

    It doesn't mention why the Tegas dropped a fuel tank... was it an accident, a fault, they don't know?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:20 am

    It also happened with a mig-29k last month. Bad trained maintenance crew.
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    Post  jhelb Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:49 pm

    Austin wrote:Tejas program has built an entire End to End Aerospace Industry in India from Designing to Production ...... Starting from Scratch ..We had zilch before that other than lic production.

    If you read carefully about Tejas Mk2 linked above.

    Its capability is better than Mig-35 and slightly better than Gripen-E , The Design of Mk2 is suppose to be the best in Single Engine Fighter of its class.

    If the Tejas MK2 is indeed so good why has the Indian Government released an RFP to foreign vendors, for procuring 100+ fighters ?

    By the time the 100th foreign fighter arrives in India you can have at least 2 squadrons of Tejas MK2 at less than half the cost.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:21 pm

    Austin wrote:Tejas program has built an entire End to End Aerospace Industry in India from Designing to Production ...... Starting from Scratch ..We had zilch before that other than lic production.

    If you read carefully about Tejas Mk2 linked above.

    Its capability is better than Mig-35 and slightly better than Gripen-E , The Design of Mk2 is suppose to be the best in Single Engine Fighter of its class.

    And you think a country that never made any plane or radar or missiles and had no aerospace industry will make a fighter better than a mig 35, that by the way you know nothing about, or euro canards ?

    Russians have thousands of simulations and hundreds of different design in their data base. Tejas is the most simple delta wing fighter that can be designed. It is small, short legs, small radar and most important of all it is designed by indians. I would more likely take a mirage 3 or mig-21 over a tejas.

    It is the same about your Arjun tank. Very good on paper and on forums but yet indians buy t-90. Guess why... because indians hardware suck.
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    Post  Admin Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:21 pm

    Isos wrote:It also happened with a mig-29k last month. Bad trained maintenance crew.

    More like shoddy work done by HAL.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:28 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:It also happened with a mig-29k last month. Bad trained maintenance crew.

    More like shoddy work done by HAL.

    No way ... they make the super mega Tejas, that would never happen to them Very Happy
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:27 am

    Hey, lets actually be fair and say that Tejas was never intended to actually be a medium fighter, and claims it is better than the MiG-35 are interesting... I would ask which MiG-35... was it the one offered to India or the one being introduced into Russian service.

    There is enormous potential for a cheap light fighter and the Tegas could be a solution to that... the problem is that... as it sounds like it is happening... they try to give it too many capabilities and it ends up being a more expensive medium fighter.

    It happens so often that they start out with a simple design and complicate it and it gets heavier so it needs a bigger engine and a new radar....

    Probably the only fighter that really didn't fall in to that trap was the F-20, but no body bought them because it was not as shiny and flashy.

    The key is to make it cheap to operate and simple to maintain, but with a good enough radar and good enough self defence avionics suite... it does not need enormous range or a very heavy payload... modern weapons are generally not that heavy and inflight refuelling can add range without using up a wing pylon.
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    Post  Sujoy Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:31 pm

    India's defence ministry has approved the procurement of 83 LCA fighter aircraft. A deal worth INR 480 billion (US$ 6.5 billion).

    https://twitter.com/rajnathsingh/status/1349317675671949314?s=20

    Someone on this forum said, India plans to purchase F-18s. Let's see if Indian can afford to spend billions on procuring F-18s after spending US$6.5 billion to purchase LCA-Tejas.

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    medo
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    Post  medo Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:29 pm

    You will pay cca 80 million USD per 1 LCA Tejas. It's more expensive than Su-30MKI.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:40 am

    medo wrote:You will pay cca 80 million USD per 1 LCA Tejas. It's more expensive than Su-30MKI.

    But it's a homemade fighter so they will have total control. For their MKI they need Russian services for every problem.

    It's good for them to have an indian made fighter. But we need to see who profuces what. If it is like the gripen then it sucks

    But I agree the price should be somewhere near 30 million like jf-17.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:57 am

    Co-ordinates in this case refers to what, the location of the S-400 unit?

    Coordinates as in a position on a map.

    Radar triangulation or grid reference from recon might identify a location where an enemy target is located... the specific position might not actually have a radar there, but with an 800Kt nuclear warhead that really does not matter that much... the point is that the incoming hypersonic missile might be headed to a physical location on the ground and not be looking for laser spots or IR or Radar signatures or emissions even... so EW and Jammers etc and even smoke wont do much to stop it.

    IR decoys will take care of IIR homing. Radar guidance will face jamming. So with these accompanying soft kill measures S-400 or any other similar SAM unit will be difficult to target.

    The S-400 will be operated with all sorts of decoys and jammers and systems to make it hard to defeat but it will be the hard kill features that help it best... its ability to move and the fact that TOR and PANTSIR can fire while moving means it can be defended whether it is moving or stationary.

    Someone on this forum said, India plans to purchase F-18s. Let's see if Indian can afford to spend billions on procuring F-18s after spending US$6.5 billion to purchase LCA-Tejas.

    They would be much better off spending money on the Tejas and getting it right than blowing it on super expensive foreign stuff like Rafales and Hornets.

    Important to keep focus and not let requirements grow too much... Tejas needs to be small and light and affordable and capable, but don't expect it to be an Su-30MKI or Mig-29 that is just unreasonable and it will become heavier and much more expensive if you try.

    But it's a homemade fighter so they will have total control. For their MKI they need Russian services for every problem.

    Home made fighter with foreign engine and parts... the Su-30 would be much cheaper if it didn't have expensive foreign parts in it...


    But I agree the price should be somewhere near 30 million like jf-17.

    That should be the goal price they are aiming for...
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:02 am

    medo wrote:You will pay cca 80 million USD per 1 LCA Tejas. It's more expensive than Su-30MKI.
    The brand new 12 Su 30MKI's that India is buying will have a price tag of US$ 122 million per aircraft

    https://www.business-standard.com/article/defence/govt-approves-purchase-of-21-mig-29-and-12-su-30-mki-jets-other-weapons-120070201200_1.html

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    medo
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    Post  medo Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:01 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    medo wrote:You will pay cca 80 million USD per 1 LCA Tejas. It's more expensive than Su-30MKI.
    The brand new 12 Su 30MKI's that India is buying will have a price tag of US$ 122 million per aircraft

    https://www.business-standard.com/article/defence/govt-approves-purchase-of-21-mig-29-and-12-su-30-mki-jets-other-weapons-120070201200_1.html

    You buy Su-30MKI for 70 million USD.


    Isos wrote:But it's a homemade fighter so they will have total control. For their MKI they need Russian services for every problem.

    It's good for them to have an indian made fighter. But we need to see who profuces what. If it is like the gripen then it sucks

    But I agree the price should be somewhere near 30 million like jf-17.

    Only body of Tejas is home made, all the rest inside is imported. When US will impose sanctions for S-400, production of Tejas will stop and those in armament will be grounded. Sanctions mean no engines, no spare parts, no electronics, no catapult seats, no radar, etc.
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:22 pm

    medo wrote:You buy Su-30MKI for 70 million USD.
     That's why I shared the link with you to prove that the cost of one Su 30MKI is US$122 million.

    medo wrote:Only body of Tejas is home made, all the rest inside is imported. When US will impose sanctions for S-400, production of Tejas will stop and those in armament will be grounded. Sanctions mean no engines, no spare parts, no electronics, no catapult seats, no radar, etc.
    Apart from the radar and engines what are the other systems, sub systems that are imported? Almost all these systems were developed ingenuously.

    India has made it abundantly clear that India will import S-400. If the US still goes ahead and imposes sanctions then they will lose billions as India will stop importing US military hardware.

    GarryB wrote:Home made fighter with foreign engine and parts... the Su-30 would be much cheaper if it didn't have expensive foreign parts in it...
    The only foreign parts on board the Su 30MKI are those that cannot be exported by Russia. Several parts have already been indigenized.

    The indigenous material content of Tejas Mk.1A will be 50%, which will be enhanced to 60%

    The significance of this 83 Tejas Mk-1A order also lies in the fact that it will reinvigorate the supply chain for even the existing inducted Mk1s, since a whole range of MSMEs who can supply line replacement units will benefit.

    GarryB wrote:That should be the goal price they are aiming for...
    The actual unit cost of the Tejas Mk-1A is US$ 42 million, if you strip away ancillary allocations related to infrastructure etc.

    China achieved that price of US$ 32 million for one JF-17 because they produced 150 units of that aircraft - economies of scale.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:55 pm

    This clip says that 64% of its parts r Indian:


    Tejas Aircraft Far Better Than China-Pak JF-17 Fighters, Says Air Force Chief


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:11 pm

    The Su-30MKI cost increase is due to new rules regarding purchases from Russia. Apparently due to some countries *cough*India*cough*, they sign new agreements that it isn't just the jet itself but spares and services. I don't think missiles are included though unless in this case it is.

    As for localization of the parts for Tejas... A lot of same is for MKI. While it's assembled in India, a lot of non vital parts are made in India. But like Tejas, specifics like Engines, radar and other such is from outside (engines debatable as Al-31 for MKI are also assembled in India with a lot of parts made in India).

    Also, the claim it's 60% Indian is actually a massive stretch. The vital parts of the jet - engines, radar, computers, semiconductors, etc are foreign. The body is Indian. Maybe if you count every single component down to every single screw, maybe it's 60% but if you don't play with such specifics then no, it's not 60%. Not even 50%. If you remove the foreign parts, that jet won't fly, won't target, won't communicate, won't do anything other than be a shell on the ground.

    While I give props to India for really trying, they are tens of billions wasted on a jet that isn't much better than a Jf-17 while costing a fortune. Could have gone the South African route where they purchased rights to manufacture Mirages but to their own standard (Cheetah), India would have about the same performance, less price and more localization.

    Anyway, I hope the best for them. Maybe learn the Tejas lessons and look for building their own Su-30 variant fully themselves with basic license from Russia.
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    Post  medo Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:08 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Apart from the radar and engines what are the other systems, sub systems that are imported? Almost all these systems were developed ingenuously.

    Engine F404 is US made.
    Radar EL/M 2032 is from Israel.
    Inertial navigation and gyroscope is from France
    Catapult seat Martin Baker is from UK
    Radome is from UK
    ECM pod and targeting pod are from Israel
    DASH helmet is from Israel
    EW suite Elisra is from Israel

    Just to name a few...

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    Post  Isos Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:40 pm

    medo wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:Apart from the radar and engines what are the other systems, sub systems that are imported? Almost all these systems were developed ingenuously.

    Engine F404 is US made.
    Radar EL/M 2032 is from Israel.
    Inertial navigation and gyroscope is from France
    Catapult seat Martin Baker is from UK
    Radome is from UK
    ECM pod and targeting pod are from Israel
    DASH helmet is from Israel
    EW suite Elisra is from Israel

    Just to name a few...

    Their first jet program. Not surprising. However they have programs for radar, ECM, missiles and probably some other stuff.

    Jf-17 is a pakistani concept but produced by chinese. Even gripen is full of external component. SSJ-100 too.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:52 am

    If the US still goes ahead and imposes sanctions then they will lose billions as India will stop importing US military hardware.

    Turkey had orders for 100 F-35s and was producing parts of the wings for all F-35s... kicking them out of the programme probably cost the US 20 billion dollars, because not only did they not sell 100 F-35s, but they also have to scramble to find a company to make the wing parts Turkey used to make....

    They still did it though.

    The only foreign parts on board the Su 30MKI are those that cannot be exported by Russia.

    The Su-30MKI was full of French and Israeli parts that were not banned from Russian export to India... India chose them on purpose.

    Which is why Indian Su-30MKIs cost more than Russian Su-35s... even with the export markup.

    Several parts have already been indigenized.

    Making stuff yourself makes things more expensive, not less expensive.... and demanding local assembly also drives up the price too.

    The indigenous material content of Tejas Mk.1A will be 50%, which will be enhanced to 60%

    Which makes it horribly vulnerable to US sanctions.


    The significance of this 83 Tejas Mk-1A order also lies in the fact that it will reinvigorate the supply chain for even the existing inducted Mk1s, since a whole range of MSMEs who can supply line replacement units will benefit.

    Very true, though smaller and more regular orders are better for the finances...

    The actual unit cost of the Tejas Mk-1A is US$ 42 million, if you strip away ancillary allocations related to infrastructure etc.

    That would be quite reasonable... but the need to make it cheaper if it is going to be a numbers aircraft.

    They should lower the requirement specs and cut off the stuff that does not benefit performance but adds cost.

    China achieved that price of US$ 32 million for one JF-17 because they produced 150 units of that aircraft - economies of scale.

    The Tejas is supposed to be a cheap numbers plane so that is what India should be aiming for too.

    Tejas Aircraft Far Better Than China-Pak JF-17 Fighters, Says Air Force Chief

    What else is the Indian Air Force Chief going to say?

    While I give props to India for really trying, they are tens of billions wasted on a jet that isn't much better than a Jf-17 while costing a fortune. Could have gone the South African route where they purchased rights to manufacture Mirages but to their own standard (Cheetah), India would have about the same performance, less price and more localization.

    They wanted to produce the Mirage 2000, but France refused and demanded they buy Rafales instead...

    The MRCA programme was intended to get the French to drop their prices or perhaps allow them to have local production of the M2K but they wouldn't budge...

    36 Rafales for 8.4 billion and 10 years wasted.

    Their first jet program.

    Like their tank programme they aimed too high... they became focused on it like it was a 5th gen light fighter... which it isn't... cobbling together parts from other countries is no great achievement in terms of personal progress...

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:30 am

    What else is the Indian Air Force Chief going to say?

    Ar least it has more payload & hardpoints:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas#Specifications_(Tejas_Mk_1)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder#Specifications_(JF-17_Block_2)

    After the Tejas Mk2 comes out, it'll have better overall performance & 11 hardpoints with a capacity of around 6.5 tons, leaving the JF-17 Block 2 in the dust.

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