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    Russia - India Strategic Relationship: News

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    As I've repeated before, Russia's foreign policy toward ungrateful, sell-out countries (especially including ex-Soviet and Eastern European states) should be strictly transactional and commercial. Give up privately on hopes for any of them cherishing fraternity, brotherhood, shared history, culture, language etc., but in public carry on trumpeting such fanciful, rhetorical "values". Sell that bullshit, make money and secure your strategic interests. The US has already provided the blueprints to this facetious playbook, selling their "values" too.

    Russia would not benefit from manipulating trade partners the way the US does today, in fact the US would benefit because then they could truly say the Russians and the Chinese are no better than us so better the devil you know.

    Russia and China are not trying to get into the position the US is in now, they want a unipolar world where they can make their own choices and decisions and don't have to bow down to any other country.

    Russia would be a pole of power, but so would China and even the US, and the EU and other countries... Brazil, India, South Africa, Algeria, Egypt, etc etc a situation where groups of countries don't gang up to bully other countries or regions... that is how WWI started and was what created the necessary conditions for WWII to happen... and almost started WWIII several times.

    Agree, but actually WW1 started from exactly such a multi-polar world

    In practice how multi-polarity went, is that the most powerful nations of the world divided the rest of the world between themselves, and once there was nothing left to take or conquer, they turned on each other big time. Each power allied with the ones it had less conflicts of interests with, and it came down to a war between two alliances.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:37 pm

    But once you get signed agreements and alliances then you create two or more power blocks and while the theory that is supposed to create deterrence to prevent conflict, as we saw it dragged countries that had no reason to fight each other except for a piece of paper they signed to help out another country in need.



    A proper multipolar world does not involve ganging up or military agreements or organisations like HATO.

    Hahaha... just saw this and thought it was relevant with power blocks... WWII... Britain and India etc etc..

    BTW this is eddie izzard... ignore the makeup and he is funny... he was transgender back before it was popular.... if they were all like he was then I would have less problems with them....

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:41 am

    GarryB wrote:But once you get signed agreements and alliances then you create two or more power blocks and while the theory that is supposed to create deterrence to prevent conflict, as we saw it dragged countries that had no reason to fight each other except for a piece of paper they signed to help out another country in need.



    A proper multipolar world does not involve ganging up or military agreements or organisations like HATO.

    A multipolar world implies competition between those poles. That will lead to alliances, and eventually a bipolar confrontation of enemies of enemies as friends, as per usual

    I'm not sure there is a solution. But slowly, humanity is evolving. No-one wants to do multipolarity like last time, and unipolarity and the West and pals now trying to gang up on China to preserve their hegemony have to go too. So what does that leave us with in the end? I'm not as optimistic as you are about the new outlook, but I think it will be better than today regardless.

    Hahaha... just saw this and thought it was relevant with power blocks... WWII... Britain and India etc etc..

    BTW this is eddie izzard... ignore the makeup and he is funny... he was transgender back before it was popular.... if they were all like he was then I would have less problems with them....


    I don't care who does what really, and I have no issues appreciating people for their talent. It's when something is shoved down my throat by a political agenda that I tend to vomit it back out.
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    Post  George1 Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:03 pm

    India to allot second site for NPP construction under Russian design

    https://tass.com/economy/1371597


    India’s Nayara Energy to start polypropylene production jointly with Rosneft


    https://tass.com/economy/1371581


    Putin, Modi consider it necessary to start talks on EAEU-India free trade agreement

    https://tass.com/politics/1371555

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    Russia - India Strategic Relationship: News - Page 11 Empty List of 28 agreements/MoUs between India and Russia that were signed during Putin's visit

    Post  Sujoy Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:45 am

    List of 28 agreements/MoUs between India and Russia that were signed during Putin's visit




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    Post  Sujoy Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:35 am

    Russia, a legacy relationship with limitations


    The Russian President Vladimir Putin’s short visit to New Delhi and the inaugural 2+2 meeting between India and Russia — which is India’s fourth such engagement with another country — will help improve Moscow-New Delhi ties, currently fraying under the pressure of larger global power shifts. Of all the diplomatic balancing acts India has to play in this milieu of geopolitical uncertainty, the one with Russia is the most significant. And yet, let the ongoing flurry of activity between Moscow and New Delhi not blind us to the global forces that will pose formidable challenges for the partnership.
    There are constraints

    Russia, no doubt, is a friend in need to India; but Moscow’s friendship comes with limitations. Not only would the realities of the global balance of power shrink the robustness of the relationship over time, but, more crucially perhaps, a legacy relationship based on limited interaction might eventually lose the warmth given that there is little organic, people-to-people content to the relationship.

    To put it bluntly, unless the bilateral ties can move beyond arms sale/purchase, the phase of stasis will kick in sooner rather than later in India-Russia relations. Consider for instance, the India-Russia bilateral trade is around U.S.$10 billion, far lower than India’s trade with China and the United States, China’s trade with the U.S. and Russia, and even the U.S.’s trade with Russia. The Soviet-era cultural and people-to-people contacts have almost entirely evaporated. Arms sales alone won’t a relationship make.

    Today, the India-Russia relationship stands deeply strained by the larger geopolitical realities which neither of them is completely in control of. The quadrilateral dynamics among India, China, the U.S. and Russia have different implications of varying degrees for all four states in this relationship, in particular for India.
    The dynamics

    Let us use the concept of primary and secondary antagonisms to understand the dynamics of this quad better. To a great extent, if not entirely, the dynamics of this six-way relationship, at the apex, is a function of the U.S.-China rivalry. In this six-way matrix, China-U.S. antagonism is the first order relationship and the U.S.-Russia, China-Russia and Russia-India are the second order relationships. While the second order relationships in this quad are, to a great extent, a product of the primary antagonism, the second tier relationships also have their own unique dynamics and implications.

    For instance, India-China, a second order relationship in this quad, is both a product of the primary antagonism between the U.S. and China as well as a result of the regional geopolitical rivalry between India and China.

    Even though China remains its primary antagonism, Washington has not yet succeeded in divorcing its less challenging second order antagonism (rivalry with Moscow) from it. Washington’s parallel rivalries with China and Russia (albeit to a lesser extent) have complicated matters for New Delhi.

    What appears to be a near certainty in the medium to longer term is that the dynamics of the quadrilateral relationship, in particular India’s tense relations with China, will go on to complicate India’s time-tested partnership with Russia, a process that has already started.

    Even though Beijing has not aggressively attempted to damage India-Russia relations, there is little doubt that China will attempt to drive a wedge between New Delhi and Moscow since isolating India in the larger Asian region suits Beijing’s larger game plan.
    A few scenarios

    It gets more complicated if we were to examine the various potential scenarios in this quadrilateral relationship. For instance, the extent of Chinese aggression towards India will play a role in determining India’s relationship with Russia. Consider this. An aggressive China will push India towards the U.S., and even though Russia would be understanding towards India’s rationale behind such a pro-U.S. tilt in the medium term, India’s relationship with the U.S. will invariably create hurdles in India-Russia relations in the longer term. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s warning to India should be read in that context: “We expressed our serious concern to our Indian friends over the U.S. activity there (Asia-Pacific region) under the slogan of so-called Indo-Pacific strategies and the creation of closed bloc-type structures”.

    Put differently, the more aggressive Beijing gets towards New Delhi, the more India would grow closer to Washington and Moscow. However, while Moscow would appreciate a close partnership with New Delhi, it may not be when it comes to a growing India-U.S. partnership. More so, if Moscow has to choose between Beijing and New Delhi, it would choose Beijing just as New Delhi would choose Washington over Moscow if it comes to that.

    This also implies that an aggressive China may also help increase India-Russia relations in the short to medium term, something we may already be witnessing. Recall Defence Minister Rajnath Singh’s visit to Moscow in June 2020 soon after the stand-off between Indian and Chinese troops on the Line of Actual Control to procure more weapons systems, among other things.

    In the meantime, the seemingly unresolvable first order antagonism (the U.S. versus China) also provides space for geopolitical hedges in the second order partnerships/antagonisms, i.e., India-Russia and even Russia-U.S. For instance, Russia’s dormant concerns about China’s rising influence in its traditional periphery, and Moscow’s relations with India in the broader context of Central and West Asia and the western Indian Ocean could prompt Moscow to maintain a certain degree of, albeit limited, geopolitical hedge vis-à-vis Beijing. India’s desire for a robust relationship with Russia will be more appreciated by the U.S. due to the Chinese aggression against India and the U.S.’s systemic and first order rivalry with Beijing. More so, once the reality of the rise of China becomes a concern for Moscow, it could potentially open conversations with Washington to create a balance vis-à-vis Beijing which suits Indian interests.

    At the same time, however, if there is a rapprochement between the U.S. and Russia or a reduction in the war of words between the U.S. and China, this may or may not have a direct and substantive impact on Sino-Indian relations since the strains in Sino-Indian relations are not just a product of global balance of power but, more fundamentally, a result of India-China dynamics in the Southern Asian region. Put differently, no matter what the state of global geopolitics is, the essential (adversarial) nature of India-China relations is unlikely to undergo a fundamental transformation. For New Delhi, the principal antagonism is China. Therefore, New Delhi must exploit strategies and partnerships that can help address the China challenge more effectively. This means that India has to carefully balance its growing partnership with the U.S. with its somewhat delicate relationship with Russia.
    Potential for cooperation

    Let us return to the India-Russia ties and examine the potential for cooperation between the two sides. In a sense, the U.S. withdrawal from Kabul and India’s relationship with Moscow have helped New Delhi to adopt more flexible strategies vis-à-vis Afghanistan as well as the broader region. Given the close relationship that New Delhi enjoyed with Washington, American presence in Kabul had, in a way, limited India’s options as New Delhi was broadly encouraged to follow U.S. policy in the region. With the Americans gone, India can openly cooperate with Moscow and even Tehran, especially if the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) renegotiations succeed, and engage Afghanistan and the Central Asian region with their help.

    If New Delhi plays its cards well, it can use Moscow to gain more geopolitical heft in the region — while the U.S. provided New Delhi status quo in the region, Moscow could provide India with more direct opportunities. Of course, New Delhi would need to be prepared for adverse reactions from Beijing and Islamabad.

    Yet another area of cooperation between Moscow and New Delhi is the Indian Ocean Region, especially the western Indian Ocean where Russia has been expanding its influence and India has significant interests.

    For New Delhi, located in an unstable and virtually friendless neighbourhood, friendship with Russia is important notwithstanding the structural limits to such a friendship. It will, therefore, take a great deal of diplomatic agility from New Delhi to stay the course and improve the relationship with Moscow amidst high-stakes geopolitical contestations.

    Happymon Jacob teaches at the Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi and is the founder of the Council for Strategic and Defense Research
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:37 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    Happymon Jacob teaches at the Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi and is the founder of the Council for Strategic and Defense Research

    In a multi-polar world, why should either Moscow or New Delhi have to 'choose' when it comes down to it?
    They are both major powers in their own right and can decide on their own positions, or to not take a position at all.

    Russia is not going to choose between China and India, it has nothing to obligate it to.
    Same with India choosing between Russia and America.

    Even in the Cold War, neither India nor China were part of the Western or Eastern blocs. Hell even Yugoslavia and Albania decided not to join either.

    And if Russia and India desire to hedge bets against China, then they can just co-operate with each other to the extent they wish, without needing to involve America in this bilateral relationship.

    This really is just more pro-Atlantic agitation dressed up as a reasoned article
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:54 am

    flamming_python wrote: In a multi-polar world, why should either Moscow or New Delhi have to 'choose' when it comes down to it?
    They are both major powers in their own right and can decide on their own positions, or to not take a position at all.
    Because they are not great, they are too small to hold their own against the U.S and China. India's economy should roughly have been the size of that of China but India refuses to develop.

    Russia by now should have had an economy that's roughly $7-$8 trillion but for reasons unknown to me, it's not.

    So until such time that Russia & India drastically increases the size of their economy they will have to play second fiddle to U.S and China.

    flamming_python wrote:And if Russia and India desire to hedge bets against China, then they can just co-operate with each other to the extent they wish, without needing to involve America in this bilateral relationship.
    Dmitri Trenin from Carnegie Moscow recently analyzed the current state of Russia-India relations. He too suggests that Russian politicians remains Euro centric and people to people relation between Russia & India is missing.

    https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/85903
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:10 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    flamming_python wrote: In a multi-polar world, why should either Moscow or New Delhi have to 'choose' when it comes down to it?
    They are both major powers in their own right and can decide on their own positions, or to not take a position at all.
    Because they are not great, they are too small to hold their own against the U.S and China. India's economy should roughly have been the size of that of China but India refuses to develop.

    Russia by now should have had an economy that's roughly $7-$8 trillion but for reasons unknown to me, it's not.

    So until such time that Russia & India drastically increases the size of their economy they will have to play second fiddle to U.S and China.

    Well that's a bit of a lack of self-confidence there Sujoy

    What if China had that attitude back in the 70s?
    It didn't, it stayed in its own lane and worked on itself. So did India

    And it's not my place to say what India should do, but as for Russia, I see no reason why Russia should tow itself to anyone. We enjoy great relations with China, and a huge volume of trade. However there are many more countries in the world, and Russia is certainly not about to let China say who it can and can't be friends with. What was the point of distancing itself from the US in the first place in that case?

    So, Russia will be friends with China, and it will be friends with India, if India wishes. It will be friends with African states, Middle Eastern states, and Europe as well in the future, if they get off their high-horse. The volume of Russian-EU trade is still greater than the volume of trade Russia has with China.

    Russia also plays second-fiddle to no-one for the time being. All the relations it has cultivated with countries around the world, it did itself, and maintains, expands by itself.

    flamming_python wrote: Dmitri Trenin from Carnegie Moscow recently analyzed the current state of Russia-India relations. He too suggests that Russian politicians remains Euro centric and people to people relation between Russia & India is missing.

    https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/85903

    And I would entirely agree with that. That's something to work on. This talk of US, China is of no bearing to anything between Russia and India and their ties, or lack of them.

    Going forward, Russia needs a strong India as it wants a counter-balance to China as well, or rather a triumvirate in Asia consisting of itself, China and India, per the Primakov doctrine.

    There is no benefit to Russia of getting on whatever China's agenda for India may or may not be.
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:59 pm

    India unfortunately, is reading Russia entirely wrong, either by articles like that, or by news reports like this:



    "Waning regional power"

    Not even Obama described Russia quite like that Wink

    Like it's about to collapse any day to pressure from the West, is desperately reaching to India to get a foot up in the negotiations with Biden, or is now effectively China's bitch

    In reality this is a fantasy scenario. Shoring up ties with China helps Russia in its goal to build a multi-polar world. It was cultivating stronger ties with China and more trade even well before the Crimea crisis in 2014 and fall-out with the West.
    Building ties with India serves the same goal. The strategically timed visit to India was not about the negotiations with Biden, who cares about those, they were of no substance. Rather it was to discuss India's plans to take part in Biden's democracy summit that's happening over the next couple of days, that aims to split the world into blocs.

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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:43 pm

    From actual experience - India can't get itself right. Let alone Russia. Indians been saying "super power by 2010" then moved the goal post after realizing it is far from a super power.

    Indians, like most people, lack basic concept of economics or what actually makes a power. Sujoy is an example of this. That video you posted flaming, is another example. Explain to most what purchasing power parity is and their heads will explode. Indians have it worst due to their education is purely math and science but no actual concept of applying this beyond the basics. So they are very smart people, but lack a drive and direction so they seem rather robotic (lack of a better term).

    It isn't money, it's influence and what you can do with what you got. China has all this money but still plays second fiddle to Russia in terms of real power. India lacks on both fronts though - lack of ability to show off like China, and lacks the ability to press beyond their own borders. Heck, they have trouble trying to keep it together within the borders. It's rather a miracle India is still a state in its current form honestly.

    Another thing Indians have which is a huge detriment to their prospects is their inability to look beyond patriotism. There are so many die hards in India that criticism is a no no. And thus they won't learn. They think everyone wants them but obviously in the world, no one does. They think they can't do no wrong, but they can't see beyond two feet and let issues like Kashmir go on for longer than it should. Or all the issues like love jihad in India, forced conversions, destruction of neighborhoods by Muslim gangs and police do nothing. People lit on fire by same gangs and no one arrested. Protests in a province about India trying to get rid of corruption in the food trade business and Punjabi morons protest against it. Government caves.

    I talked with a few professors while I was in Delhi. One thing I noticed from them is they both felt that India may cease to exist in its current form in a decade or two. Simply because the division is way too big, and people are too worried about things that don't matter- their religious views and foreign prospects. Every third sign in India everywhere is "apply here to get jobs in Canada, US, Australia and UK". It's rather evident that most don't want to stay in India so they seek outside the country to thrive.

    China fixed itself. It fixed its opioid issue, they fixed their economic issue, fixed its internal political issue and managed to solidify itself and develop beyond most others. There are issues, always will be. But they didn't concentrate outside, they didn't concentrate on overtaking anyone at first. No, they concentrated on themselves and their development. They worked with anyone willing to work with them. And it shows for itself.

    Flaming is right - Russia will do and work with anyone who is willing to work with them. They don't take crap from anyone and will continue to do trade and development. Iran is rather a similar case to a degree.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:44 am

    In a multi-polar world, why should either Moscow or New Delhi have to 'choose' when it comes down to it?
    They are both major powers in their own right and can decide on their own positions, or to not take a position at all.

    Russia is not going to choose between China and India, it has nothing to obligate it to.
    Same with India choosing between Russia and America.

    This is American bullshit.... China and India and Russia don't need to be best buddies to trade and they don't need exclusive relationships to cooperate on many levels.

    It is America and the EU that will only trade and cooperate if you cut ties with this or that country, and if you agree to do so that list of countries you can't trade with will only increase till you can only trade with them.

    They are not trading with you to help you out... they are trading because they need what you have or want to sell their shit to you... they are not doing you any favours they are only interested in their own interests.

    Don't let them sucker you into cutting ties with anyone or going to war with anyone.

    Because they are not great, they are too small to hold their own against the U.S and China.

    Who said India are not great? The measure of a country is not its economy. By that metric Russia is weak and pathetic, yet it is balancing its spending, has paid off its debts to manageable levels, and is building a substantial reserve at a time of a global pandemic and open hostility from the rich and powerful west... it has reformed its military... before 2005 even the Russian people had a low opinion of their military, but they have turned that around completely and not through fake news and propaganda with movies showing them winning wars, but through a complete overhaul and upgrade of their training and equipment and weapons and the introduction of upgraded to the max ex Soviet equipment and also designed from scratch state of the art upgraded equipment and weapons that are second to none in the world... not just developed, but put into production and in the process of putting into service across the board.

    Russia didn't do all this because of Western support and investment, in fact they did it in the face of hostile western sanctions designed to damage Russia and bring her in to line so international companies and foreign countries could buy up all their assets and resources and use them up like they have in the Ukraine.

    I can appreciate India thinking the US can save them and invest and build them up and help them... but the only times the US did that was with West Germany and Japan after WWII and it was with the express purpose of facing off against the Soviet Union and Communist China... West Germany became a hub of production and so did Japan but they were also subservient vessels controlled completely by the US... unable to break free even today...

    Russia by now should have had an economy that's roughly $7-$8 trillion but for reasons unknown to me, it's not.

    Because the west has closed shop and the old boys club wont let Russia in because it didn't go to the correct school and does not wear a school tie they recognise.

    So until such time that Russia & India drastically increases the size of their economy they will have to play second fiddle to U.S and China.

    Bullshit... China would never dream of telling Russia what they can or cannot do, just like Russia would not tell China or India what they can or cannot do.

    The US tells everyone what they should do and of course Russia and China ignore them for the yapping dogs they are... India is listening because it is hoping to get some perks from western companies pulling out of China.

    Trump wanted those companies to go back to the US but unless he forces them they will go to Bangledesh or even Afghanistan if there is not conflict there...

    Anything of value you might get from the US you will lose because you have to buy their military stuff which is enormously over priced and often unable to do the job without all the other stuff that goes with it... some of which you might not be allowed.

    Dmitri Trenin from Carnegie Moscow recently analyzed the current state of Russia-India relations. He too suggests that Russian politicians remains Euro centric and people to people relation between Russia & India is missing.

    I could have told you that... Russia looks to Europe as a model to follow, when it reality it is not... Russia and India and China all need to find their own ways forward and not look to the west because the west is screwed. They don't need to find a way together, each could choose a slightly different path, but they need to be still able to work with each other where it makes sense and not actively sabotage each other like spoilt children (the west).

    The success of China or Russia or India does not damage the other two countries and rather than trying to hold each other back you should be working to help other countries develop and improve with you.

    However there are many more countries in the world, and Russia is certainly not about to let China say who it can and can't be friends with.

    And the point is that China does not tell Russia who it can or can't be friends with and Russia does not talk to China in that way either.

    There is a huge world out there of countries that are stuck in limbo because their international trade has mainly been with the west... making the west rich and powerful but not earning very much or developing for themselves. A growing China and growing Russia and a growing India offers alternatives to the west where they can grow and develop without restrictions and demands for laws that limit their growth and hand over ownership of their resources to the west to exploit.

    Africa has noticed that China and Russia don't demand exclusive mineral rights and despite all the shit talk from the west about China locking Africa into debt spirals they can never pay back.... that is what the west did and the Chinese are not doing.... the Chinese are building good roads and schools and hospitals because they want the locals to see the benefit of working with them and also help local workers gain more skills to make them more useful in factories and give them a better future.

    So, Russia will be friends with China, and it will be friends with India, if India wishes. It will be friends with African states, Middle Eastern states, and Europe as well in the future, if they get off their high-horse. The volume of Russian-EU trade is still greater than the volume of trade Russia has with China.

    And the EU is going to have to make the decision going down the track as to whether to stay Americas bitch and do as they are told by Washington, or whether they want to make their own choices and decisions... the silk roads are to improve trade between money centres... Asia and the EU... India can be a part of that which puts them on the trade route between both places so sending stuff to any country along that route becomes cheaper and easier and faster, which improves trade for everyone, or they can side with the US and make the Silk roads go around India and you don't make a rupee... look at Ukraine... has the US and EU showered them in money to compensate them for all the helicopter engines they are not selling to Russia or tank engines or Ship engines or rocket parts or transport planes? Did the US give France lots of money to compensate them over the Mistral deal. Has the US bought all that EU food rotting because of Russian sanctions against the EU for EU sanctions against Russia?

    The US demands but does not pay out compensation.... keep that in mind...

    Going forward, Russia needs a strong India as it wants a counter-balance to China as well, or rather a triumvirate in Asia consisting of itself, China and India, per the Primakov doctrine.

    There is no benefit to Russia of getting on whatever China's agenda for India may or may not be.

    Russia does not want a weak India or a weak China, it benefits Russia for China to be strong and it benefits Russia for India to be strong.... in addition of course it benefits China for China to be strong and it benefits India for India to be strong.

    The US wants India as a battering ram to break China... they might build you up a little but essentially they are not going to waste a lot or resources making you too strong because you are only going to be cannon fodder to weaken China who is their main foe right now.

    It is just the luck of the draw if India had copied exactly what Russia did and had their own Putin and it was India that was strong it would be China that the US is sucking up to to get them to challenge the dangerous India who is trying to build trade routes to Asia and Europe to improve ties.... because those trade routes don't help US trade with either region and step up competition and make American goods more expensive and slower to arrive in comparison...

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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:52 am

    From actual experience - India can't get itself right. Let alone Russia. Indians been saying "super power by 2010" then moved the goal post after realizing it is far from a super power.

    The mid 1990s everyone thought Russia can't get itself right... everyone expected it to be like the Ukraine is now... anything of value stripped out and sold and the money disappearing.... and with good reason because that really did happen... I remember talking to American teenagers in the late 1990s who said by 2010 the Russian AF would be flying second hand F-16s sold to them by HATO because HATO would be flying JSF aircraft of whichever design won the competition because MiG and Sukhoi will be gone... no longer exist.

    There was even a fear that Japan might restore its former glory of fighter aircraft by buying up equipment and expertise from Russia with their business smarts and money and their organisational skills and become an aerospace super power again like they were when they were building Zeros.

    Even at the time I knew that Russia was too big to fail and that the west had worked so hard to keep them down because they feared how far their could rise up without a war or some despot in charge.

    India has every potential of becoming stronger... super power is a meaningless term... the Taliban didn't care about Americas super power status... and super power status does not seem to allow them to win all the medals at the olympic games either, nor to dictate terms in any situation that involves other countries.. I suspect it is overrated because it has no practical value at all....
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:55 am

    You are missing the point Gary.

    Russia and Russians always knew who they are and what they are for most part. A few bad leaders (Gorby and Yeltsin) were only a hurdle in the grand scheme of thing.

    Indians problem goes back even prior to 1947 with partition. Issue stems when the Mugals invaded and forced Islam and other foreign structures on India, is when things changed. Bharat, the former empire dissolved. Hindustan was only a shadow of that, and so is its people. For most part, it's culture and now religion is all but wiped out. Instead, in its place, you got this state consisting of competing and rather non compatible ideas everywhere, with one side being zealots and other side being docile. You got a huge portion of the government being against the state and in favor whatever the British left behind and wanting to be more British than the British (like how Rhodesians felt). Recent military leader in India died in helicopter crash. Many Sikhs (Khalistani's) military men are praising his death. He went against the intelligence agency and their rather piss poor performance and lack of governance and he died.

    Russia is ruled by Russians. India isn't ruled by Indians. Perfect example of this is the "Ghandi Family" which aren't Ghandis. And anyway, Ghandi was a traitor to the state being posed as some great man. There is a reason why a Hindu blew him up. That guy had more balls than any Hindu now. Head honcho of the Congress party is Italian, not Indian (Rahuls mom).

    India can become a great state. But not with the issues of today. And due to lack of willpower to change anything and government looking more towards trying to "join clubs" (superpower and other nonsense) and counter China than fixing the issues at home, it will only make things worst.

    We see USA collapsing with division and hatred among each other. India has it far worst and far more violent.
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    Post  Sujoy Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:03 am

    flamming_python wrote: Well that's a bit of a lack of self-confidence there Sujoy
    I’m just comparing historical data. Unfortunately, India is barely making any economic progress. We were making very little progress before the BJP came to power, and now ever since BJP came into power, growth has nosedived.  Tremendous inequality: India has more billionaires than any country with the exception of China and U.S and yet 25% of the population live below the poverty line and the middle class barely makes ends meet. The hydra of unemployment looms large for demographic bulge of young workforce across India.
    flamming_python wrote: Russia is certainly not about to let China say who it can and can't be friends with
    Russia has leverage over China. Almost all the raw materials that China need to keep its factory open comes from Russia. Russia is also a major exporter of hi-tech stuff to China.
    flamming_python wrote: Going forward, Russia needs a strong India as it wants a counter-balance to China as well
    For that India has to achieve a high rate of growth and sustain it for at least 20 years. Something that China achieved throughout the 80s and 90s. I do not see signs of any such progress in India.
    And Russia realizes this, that India is hardly making any meaningful economic progress. Which is why the Kremlin is concerned that India might drift towards the West.  That being said, even with limited bargaining power India has not come under U.S influence and destroyed its relations with Russia. Despite threats of sanctions, despite U.S decision to shut down U.S manufacturing units like Ford and Harley Davidson in India, Despite bringing India down to its knees by spreading COVID-19, India refused to budge.
    The decision to go ahead with S-400 and similar multi billion $ defence deals and the massive investment being made in Russia’s Oil & Gas sector by India stands testimony to India’s defiance.
    China’s invasion of India last year might well force India to gravitate more towards the U.S. The U.S has a massive economy so there is always something that India can export. With an economy roughly the size of India, Russia cannot provide an alternative to the U.S.
    flamming_python wrote: India unfortunately, is reading Russia entirely wrong, either by articles like that, or by news reports like this
    Not India, rather the paid media. Also, just 5% of Indians consume news in English. They regularly publish, broadcast pro US, pro China stuff. Because they are paid to do so by China and U.S.
    However, as can be seen no matter how anti Chinese the rhetoric may be, business between India & China continues unhindered.
    flamming_python wrote: Building ties with India serves the same goal. The strategically timed visit to India was not about the negotiations with Biden
    Putin visited Delhi for just 5 hours. And frankly that is bad optics. Could have spent at least a day. Creating the impression of being a travelling salesman doesn’t help. Western leaders spend at least 2 days.

    Modi is a creation of the CIA (check this thread) and yet he has been at the beck and call of Putin. Putin called him to St Pete, he went. Putin called him to Sochi at short notice he went. Visited Vladivostok because Putin wanted him to. Visits Moscow twice a year every year.

    https://twitter.com/Aban__Ind/status/1283404931681128449?s=20
    GarryB wrote: Because the west has closed shop and the old boys club won’t let Russia in because it didn't go to the correct school and does not wear a school tie they recognise.
    Exactly the reason why India needs to maintain good terms with the U.S and E.U. Especially when exports from India to the West can easily be substituted by similar exports from other countries. Russian exports are mostly natural resources, they cannot be substituted.
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    Post  jhelb Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:44 am

    miketheterrible wrote:I talked with a few professors while I was in Delhi. One thing I noticed from them is they both felt that India may cease to exist in its current form in a decade or two.  Simply because the division is way too big, and people are too worried about things that don't matter- their religious views and foreign prospects.  
    This is good. I too would hope that India breaks up into a number of smaller nations. Too much diversity and it's not doing them or Russia any good. Plus they have become a US pawn now. But if India breaks up then Russia can create a number of countries that are pro Russia.

    miketheterrible wrote:Every third sign in India everywhere is "apply here to get jobs in Canada, US, Australia and UK".  It's rather evident that most don't want to stay in India so they seek outside the country to thrive
    Much like Muslims and Africans they also enter these Western countries illegally. They were entering Russia illegally as well but now Putin has clamped down on them. Those Indians who enter Russia are now subjected to 2-3 hrs of extensive interrogation at airports/entry points and several are sent back.

    Most Western countries don't like them either. Look at the passport ranking of countries. Despite their envy of Russia and even describing Russia as an adversary far more western countries allow Russians instead of Indians. Russia is at 30, India way below at 70 Razz

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php

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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:18 am

    Russia has leverage over China. Almost all the raw materials that China need to keep its factory open comes from Russia. Russia is also a major exporter of hi-tech stuff to China.

    Have you not been paying attention my friend... look at the leverage the west had with Russia... it has all been blown in the form of sanctions and threats to the point where certainly Putin realises the future of Russia does not lie with the west... how long before the rest of Russia realises that and starts looking to Africa and Asia and central and south america and the Pacific region for trade and ties... ties that are not to restrain and limit movement... ties of cooperation that allow both sides to do more than they could manage on their own.

    If China does not get resources from Russia there are a hundred other countries they could buy most things from... Belarus is already playing that game... cheap stuff at reduced prices from Russia sold on to the EU at a large mark up...

    Using economics as a weapon would turn the relationship between Russia and China into something similar to the relationship between the EU and US with Russia and clearly neither Russia nor China for that matter want that.

    Using resources as a weapon will just create wars, which favours the US with its poodles of cannon fodder called HATO.

    The decision to go ahead with S-400 and similar multi billion $ defence deals and the massive investment being made in Russia’s Oil & Gas sector by India stands testimony to India’s defiance.

    And that is very much to Indias credit... but even people who don't like Russia who make the right choices can still be overthrown in a coup... lets call it Maiden... and the country raped and pillaged by the west... they have a range of tools and are not afraid to use them... they don't care what damage they cause because it is not about India or the Ukraine... it is about what money they can make and how much they can hurt Russia, or China, or Iran, or any other country they happen to be fixated on at the moment.

    China’s invasion of India last year might well force India to gravitate more towards the U.S.

    Why? They were fucking useless against ISIS in Iraq or Syria... they created the problem in fact, and Kiev seems to think they are not much use at the moment despite going in and essentially taking over the place with US CIA personnel in all sorts of government positions... in fact in South Korea and Japan I would say they are more of a problem than their reason for being there.

    The only situation where the US is the situation is if you don't trust your own government and you want some other country to take control and steer the ship, but even then they will run your country aground and rob you of anything left of value before setting fire to the remains to hide their crimes.

    The U.S has a massive economy so there is always something that India can export.

    Which would just give them complete control, because then they can impose real sanctions that will actually hurt... Americans don't pay more for stuff than other people... in fact I rather suspect they pay less.... I think the idea that it is a huge rich market is changing... their enormous middle class with money to spare is shifting down to below the poverty line because housing is becoming unaffordable as the rich just get richer and people buy houses to do up and then resell then prices have to keep going up, and investors use increasing house prices to make money too, meaning the first home buyer is competing with people with more money behind them... pushing the prices up... increasing loans, increasing debt to banks...

    Sounds like the consumerism paradise leads to a dead end...

    With an economy roughly the size of India, Russia cannot provide an alternative to the U.S.

    Actually that is hilarious and totally wrong... a bloated mature economy like the US has lots of sharks that would destroy an Indian company trying to make it big, and when they come over to the Indian market they are likely to do well too because they are ruthless and rich already.

    Indian companies would do best in a growing developing market, there would be more opportunities... the US market would be like the Japanese market...

    Putin visited Delhi for just 5 hours. And frankly that is bad optics. Could have spent at least a day. Creating the impression of being a travelling salesman doesn’t help. Western leaders spend at least 2 days

    He didn't even leave his office to see Creepy Joe... that was a 2 hour video call.

    With Covid I doubt he wants to meet and greet much to be socially responsible.

    Modi is a creation of the CIA (check this thread) and yet he has been at the beck and call of Putin. Putin called him to St Pete, he went. Putin called him to Sochi at short notice he went. Visited Vladivostok because Putin wanted him to. Visits Moscow twice a year every year.

    The Germans enabled Lenin and sent him to Russia in the middle of WWI to try to get Russia out of the war which succeeded, but resulted in a Soviet Union too strong for them to beat in the 1940s so that backfired too.

    Exactly the reason why India needs to maintain good terms with the U.S and E.U. Especially when exports from India to the West can easily be substituted by similar exports from other countries. Russian exports are mostly natural resources, they cannot be substituted.

    As the west diminishes the rest of the world will pick up and demand more goods and resources... India would never run out of countries to trade with and likely on better trade terms for India most of the time.

    The core of the problem for Russia and for India is to think of the west as where all the money is... it is basically based on funny money... US printed dollars... literally monopoly money... it is not backed up by anything at all and could collapse in value at any time... Russia and China are already choosing not to deal in dollars... how long before the rest follow suit?

    Odds are they will want to start conflicts with countries who hold US debt so they don't have to pay that debt back or can write it off... but then everyone else is going to dump US debt... or demand payment...

    Much like Muslims and Africans they also enter these Western countries illegally.

    Much like nurses and doctors and other professionals from Europe come here to New Zealand... it is like England... but about 50 years ago before the knife crime and bullshit... not too hot like Australia... and no snakes or scorpions and only one type of spider that is poisonous, and even then not very and a very shy spider at that.

    Most Western countries don't like them either. Look at the passport ranking of countries. Despite their envy of Russia and even describing Russia as an adversary far more western countries allow Russians instead of Indians. Russia is at 30, India way below at 70

    Western European countries are idiots who take their instructions from Washington... and most of the time it goes against their own interests, so why care about anything they think or do or say... if you want to know what they think ask the US State department...
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    Post  jhelb Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:45 am

    GarryB wrote:Much like nurses and doctors and other professionals from Europe come here to New Zealand
    They don't enter New Zealand illegally. Unlike Africans, Muslims, Indians who are regularly entering Russia, illegally. This is why people with third world passports are interrogated for 3-4 hrs at all the Russian entry points.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:33 pm

    But they do, if they are not eligible for entry in New Zealand.

    Just because you want to live somewhere does not mean you meet their citizenship criteria and can just move and sign a form and you are a citizen.

    When I was at University I tutored several Doctors... Medical doctors... not just psychiatrists whose education and training were not recognised in New Zealand so they were doing a degree in computing because that only took three years instead of the 7 to become a doctor here.
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    Post  Kiko Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:53 pm

    Russia's triumph in India shocks US, by Simon Watkins for Oilprice.com. 14.12.2021.

    Russia last week announced a major new energy cooperation deal with India that threatens the very core of the US’s fightback strategy against Beijing’s and Moscow’s expansionism in the Middle East and beyond.

    The main hydrocarbons deal will be for Russia, via oil giant Rosneft, to supply almost 15 million barrels of crude to Indian Oil, by the end of 2022. Given the massive geopolitical ramifications of any sizeable oil deal, it was entirely legitimate for Igor Sechin, Rosneft chief executive officer to say of the deal that: “The signing of a new oil supply contract confirms the strategic nature of the long-term partnership between Rosneft and Indian Oil.”

    The deal takes on even more significance as it was just one part of 28 investment deals between Russia and India signed during the very recent visit of Putin himself to Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi. These covered a broad range of subjects, including not just oil, gas, and petrochemicals, steel, and shipbuilding, but also military matters. The opportunities for bleed-through military elements to appear in the oil and gas projects agreed between Russia and India are bad enough from the US perspective. Rosneft’s oil deliveries will be shipped through the Russian Black Sea port of Novorossiisk, with off-loading facilities in India to be built out when required.

    Putin highlighted: “Both sides reaffirmed their commitment to increasing Russian crude oil production under long-term contracts at preferential prices and increasing LNG [liquefied natural gas] imports to India with the possible use of the Northern Sea Route for energy supplies.” Specifically, added Modi: “We have set a target of US$30 billion in trade and US$50 billion in investment by 2025.”

    Bad though these deals are from the US’s perspective of seeing Russia being able to leverage them into military opportunities in India, matters became a whole lot worse as the meetings between Putin and Modi went on.

    As it now stands, a joint statement from Russia and India said: “[We have] reiterated their intention to strengthen defence cooperation, including in the joint development of production of military equipment.”

    Specifically, according to further official statements from one or both sides, India will produce at least 600,000 Kalashnikov assault rifles and, even more disturbing for the US, India’s Foreign Secretary, Harsh Vardhan Shringla, said that a 2018 contract for the S-400 air defence missile systems is now being implemented.

    The scope and scale of this coup by Putin in India is as dramatic as it is unexpected, and runs contrary to the US’s expectations of how well its contra-China/Russia strategy in the Middle East had been going. The US fightback against China’s expansion of influence in the Middle East was founded principally upon the ‘relationship normalisation’ deals that have been made with the UAE, Bahrain, and Israel, and on India’s role as a counterbalance to China in Asia and as a major global buyer of oil and gas, as analysed in depth in my new book on the global oil markets.

    The US’s idea of India as a new backstop bid for oil in Asia was bolstered by the release of a report in the first quarter of 2021 from the International Energy Agency that showed that India will make up the biggest share of energy demand growth at 25% over the next two decades, as it overtakes the European Union as the world’s third-biggest energy consumer by 2030.

    The report added that India’s energy consumption is expected to nearly double as the nation’s GDP expands to an estimated $8.6 trillion by 2040 under its current national policy scenario. This is underpinned by a rate of GDP growth that adds the equivalent of another Japan to the world economy by 2040, according to the IEA. The agency added that the country’s growing energy needs will make it more reliant on fossil fuel imports as its domestic oil and gas production has been stagnant for years despite government policies to promote petroleum exploration and production and renewable energy.

    Politically as well, an incident on 15 June 2020 between military units of China and India gave the US the belief that India’s more aggressive stance against its neighbour might be of use to it, not just in its Middle East strategy but also in its efforts to keep a check on China’s increasingly aggressive moves in the Asia-Pacific region. Specifically, the June 2020 clash between China and India that occurred in the disputed territory of the Galwan Valley in the Himalayas reflected a much greater change in the core relationship between the two countries than the relatively small number of casualties might have implied. It marked a new ‘push back’ strategy from India against China’s policy of seeking to increase its economic and military alliances from Asia through the Middle East and into Southern Europe, in line with its multi-layered multi-generational ‘One Belt, One Road’ project.

    Until China dramatically upped the tempo of this OBOR-related policy – at around the same time as the US signalled its lack of interest in continuing its own large-scale activities in the Middle East through its withdrawal from the Iran ‘nuclear deal’ and its withdrawal from much of Syria – India had stuck to a policy of trying to contain China. With the announcement in August 2020 of the US-brokered Israel-UAE ‘normalisation deal’ it appeared that a new corridor of co-operation was being developed from the US (and Israel), through the UAE (and Kuwait, Bahrain and in part Saudi Arabia) through to India. As much of China’s current turbo-driven expansion into the Middle East is predicated in the first instance on the energy sector, the starting point for the build-out of the US-Israel-UAE-India also appeared to be the energy sector. This made perfect sense as the oil industry in particular involves the movement of huge amounts of money, ships, equipment, technology and personnel in often disguised ways – confidential bank accounts, intelligence and military personnel who can pass as high-level oil technicians or security people, ships that can disappear through the flick of an AIS switch and so on – that other industries cannot match for activities that countries wish to conduct quietly. Putin also knows this – better than anyone – and these 28 deals with India are unlikely to be the end of his plans for India.

    https://www.rt.com/business/543145-russia-triumph-india-us/

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    Post  Sujoy Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:14 am

    India is believed to have told the U.S that the alternatives to Russian weapons were too expensive and that Russian firms are willing to set up joint ventures with Indian companies.

    https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/russian-weapons-cheaper-firms-keen-in-joint-ventures-india-told-us-report-101649399711962.html

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