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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion

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    Cyrus the great

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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 29 Empty Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon May 04, 2020 1:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:I think the Czech Vz 58 or something has a bolt hold open cutout on the magazine but when you pull out the mag the bolt slams forward so I really don't understand how it is useful except to tell you to change mags.

    The SKS had a bolt hold open device but that was mainly to facilitate loading via a stripper clip.

    If you look through the Kalashnikov archives and books there were dozens of different variations they tested before finalising on the rifles they did.

    That includes rifles with the cocking handle on the left side and different sight arrangements.

    Note the FN FAL had a bolt hold open option but it was manual, and the magazines were locked into place by rocking them back too.

    In fact the FN FAL is an excellent example of a rifle that is better implimented than the AR.

    The FN FAL has a front and a rear bit... the rear is the pistol grip and butt stock with recoil spring inside, while the upper is the upper receiver and magazine well and barrel, chamber and front grip.

    This means that if you wanted to develop an new upper for the FN FAL you could make it any calibre and any mechanism you like... you could make it pump action using the recoil spring in the butt, or keep the gas system, but make it any calibre from a .22lr blowback, to any rifle calibre or shotgun calibre because the magazine well is part of the upper a 12 gauge model can use a 12 gauge mag well.

    With the AR-15 the mag well is part of the lower so you can buy an upper for any calibre you want but that calibre has to fit through the well designed for the 5.56mm NATO round. You can't have calibres like .243 winchester or even a 7.62x51mm calibre because they wont fit in the mag well.

    Button releases on the SA80 constantly led to soldiers getting to where they were going and shouldering their rifles and firing their first round only to find their magazine was gone... the chance of an AK mag accidentally dropping were zero.

    Also the lever means you are holding the mag in your hand and operating the mag release with your thumb so if you are going to put the mag away in your belt order because you are on a mission and wont get resupplied for a week so you want to refill your mags later with the boxes of ammo in your backpack then putting the spent mags back in your belt order is important.

    AK mags are much more solid and reliable than M16 mags which were a source of problems for all the rifles that used them.

    Actually I like the look of the ADS... bullpup that can be fired left handed or right handed without adjustment... sounds pretty accurate and able to fire under water...

    There has been a mention regarding Ratnik 3 due about 2025 will include new small arms of new design... presumably a new family of weapons...

    Would like to see a PKP in 6x49mm calibre too.

    The AK was designed very well and it took me a little while to come to this realisation. I regarded all the tacti-cool features in other guns as essential without considering that the Russians looked at it and chose to exclude those very tacti-cool features in favour of reliability and ease of use. I saw how the AR beat the AK in 'speed reloads' and so I thought why don't the Russians just adopt an AR-15 magwell, a mag release button, a bolt catch and a bolt release. The one second speed advantage of the AR-15 is not critical; soldiers reload under cover so I would rather use a gun with a more durable magazine, guaranteed magazine retention and an easier way to fix problems.

    I now prefer the ergonomics of the AK system over the AR due to its ease of use, simplicity and the reliability of the platform.

    I've never really been a fan of bullpups but I do see their value; the length of the barrel can be increased while being smaller overall, so it's much better for CQB operations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just think that guns like the AM-17/AMB-17 can do CQB operations just as well, especially when range is not an issue.

    The French and the Chinese seem to be moving away from bullpups. The Israelis are the only ones that are doing the opposite.

    The 6x49mm would be incredible and I hope Russia puts it into service for the Chukavin and the PK machine gun. The ballistics of that round are off the charts amd it really should replace the 7.62x54mm.
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    Cyrus the great

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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 29 Empty Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon May 04, 2020 1:29 pm


    Why would you want to hold the bolt open? This isn't a breach-loaded rifle, it has a magazine for loading automatically. wrote:

    It was entirely for stupid reasons like speed of reloads. I saw the speed advantage of the AR-15 but paid no attention to the AK's mag retention advantage.
    GarryB
    GarryB

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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion - Page 29 Empty Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 05, 2020 7:21 am

    If rate of fire and number of rounds fired meant you win then the Americans won in Vietnam... I seem to remember a statistic of something like 22,000 rounds fired per kill or something outrageous like that...

    What ever happened to controlled aimed fire?

    With proper training you should be able to change mags without looking so any time spent reloading can be spent observing the battlefield looking for threats to evade and targets to engage.

    Funny thing is that you saw how slow the reload for the Russian rifle was... who was using it... an American trained on the AR?

    I have seen plenty of videos of Russian forces using the AK pretty damn fast too...

    I've never really been a fan of bullpups but I do see their value; the length of the barrel can be increased while being smaller overall, so it's much better for CQB operations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just think that guns like the AM-17/AMB-17 can do CQB operations just as well, especially when range is not an issue.

    Most Russian troops will be fully mechanised so a short compact weapon with a full length barrel and an optical sight would be ideal for sitting in a vehicle or aircraft.

    Folding stocks can make a weapon more compact sometimes but bullpups make it compact all the time, and a rifle like the ADS can be fired left or right handed without modification or adjustment and seems to be rather accurate and useful.

    The French and the Chinese seem to be moving away from bullpups. The Israelis are the only ones that are doing the opposite.

    Yeah, there are always rumours of the British and the Kiwis and Aussies going to the M4 but that ignores all the issues the M4 has with its dramatic reduction in lethality with a variety of ammo types where the velocity of the bullet is not high enough from the short barrel for it to do much more than punch a tiny neat hole in the target.

    The 6x49mm would be incredible and I hope Russia puts it into service for the Chukavin and the PK machine gun. The ballistics of that round are off the charts amd it really should replace the 7.62x54mm.

    It would be a significant step forward for Russian small arms to have a sniper rifle and machine gun with much better reach and performance with a lighter cheaper to make ammunition.

    It will of course be an enormous endeavour... every coaxial rifle calibre machine gun on every armoured vehicle today in service in Russia uses a PKT... in the 1960s when they switched from the SG-43 to the PKT they actually fitted the PKT with a longer barrel so that the ballistics would match the older weapons, so they could continue to use the optics and range scales for the older machine gun... it made the transition faster and easier and much much cheaper.

    With the new vehicles I suspect the aim marks will be computer generated so swapping out a weapon would be as easy as a software update.

    Even their new rifle scopes have digital ballistic computers that generate points of aim for different ammo types from different barrel lengths... so you might have an RPK and an SVD and maybe an RPK-16 that you own and a new scope to use on all three. When you mount it on a weapon you set the scope up with the weapon it is attached to and its calibre (for weapons that come in different calibres like AK-100s) and then you put in the bullet type and weight. So SVD with 174 grain sniper ammo tells the computer the barrel length and bullet weight and muzzle velocity. On the target range you lase the target range and then aim for the centre of the target and fire a shot. You then adjust your aim to put your cross hair on the bullet hole on the target and the scope automatically compensates and zeros itself... the rifle is then ready to shoot... lase the target and the scope will generate an aim point... place that on the part of the target you are aiming for and fire and it should hit close to that every time.

    Take the scope off and put it on the 5.45 x 39mm RPK-16, and change the weapon type to RPK-16 and tell it whether you are using the long barrel or the short barrel and the ammo projectile weight... lase the distance to the first target and fire and then adjust and you are ready to go.

    Would be great for hunting because you just need one shot to zero. Of course with hunting you might need to put in more information if your rifle is not in the database... perhaps have to put in that you are using a 270 from a 560mm length barrel with a 130 grain bullet at 900m/s or whatever so it can do its calculations, but once that is in you can save it and call it up when you use it again...

    Did I mention they used thermal imaging so could be used day or night?

    I would also add that if reloading mags is an issue then with the current AKs you can use a 45 round RPK-74 magazine, or one of the new 96 round drums being developed for the RPK-16...

    You can bet your ass if the AR was more reliable than the AK then that would be the important thing instead of reloading speed... which is interesting because I would think reliability would be the most important thing.

    BTW bullpups are real dogs in terms of reloading because it is rather awkward and slow, but they are talking about brand new weapons with brand new ammo for the Ratnik 3 that is going to be released in 2025... so it will be interesting... most of the tacticool stuff you see soldiers carry to be honest make them look silly and uncomfortable. What is the point of making a rifle 3kgs if you are going to put 10kgs of crap on it?

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