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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #15

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    Post  Ghoster on Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:12 pm

    According to Graham Phillips, who's in Gorlovka right now, today 3 women were killed by Ukrainian shelling, 2 children seriously wounded.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #15 - Page 23 ZM8yhZn

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #15 - Page 23 7MgdTvg

    Ukrop war crimes continue...
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    Post  auslander on Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:37 pm

    My information says the two children have dies. The silence from The West is deafening.
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    Post  Flagship Victory on Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:44 pm

    auslander wrote:My information says the two children have dies. The silence from The West is deafening.

    CIA orchestrated Maidan in the first place. No wonders there.
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    Post  whir on Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:50 pm

    Sputnik wrote:Ukraine's Failure to Make Debt Payment to Russia Means Default – Moscow
    BUSINESS 18:37 11.06.2015

    If Kiev fails to make its next debt payment to Moscow by June 22, Ukraine will enter a state of default, Russian Deputy Finance Minister Sergei Storchak said Thursday.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia bought Ukrainian sovereign bonds worth $3 billion in late 2013. The deadline for the next coupon payment of $75 million is set for June 20.
    “June 20 is a Saturday, so the payment is likely to come on Monday, June 22. Failure to pay would mean default,” Storchak said in an interview with Russia-1 television.

    In light of budget constraints and absence of access to capital markets, Russia “has to insist that the debtor fully complies with its obligations,” he said, noting, however, that failing to make a timely payment is not in the interests of Ukraine as a sovereign debtor.

    “Therefore, I believe that the payment will be made.”

    According to Storchak, Ukrainian borrowers owe Russian banks a total of about $25-26 billion. Continue reading.

    SBS 6 wrote:The Situation in the Ukraine. #15 - Page 23 2gvstbt
    SBS 6 is a Dutch commercial TV channel owned by a subsidiary of Finnish Sanoma Oyj.

    Sputnik wrote:Live and Let Live: Russians Refuse to Nuke United States
    SOCIETY 19:02 11.06.2015(updated 19:18 11.06.2015)

    The Russian newspaper ‘Komsomolskaya Pravda’ decided to conduct an impromptu poll in response to a survey in which Americans signed a petition to nuke Russia.

    Russians residing in the city of Alushta in Crimea refused to sign a petition for a conditional pre-emptive nuclear strike on the United States.



    The Russian newspaper ‘Komsomolskaya Pravda’ decided to conduct an impromptu poll in response to a similar survey conducted by an American blogger in San Diego.

    American journalist Mark Dice decided to conduct a poll asking Americans to sign a petition to preemptively nuke Russia. The journalist, who is the best-selling author of ‘Inside the Illuminati’ and frequent guest on History Channel’s ‘Ancient Aliens’, conducted the poll on the beaches of Southern California. Continue reading.
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    Post  Neutrality on Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:02 pm

    Poroshenko just announced that next week Rada will discuss the plans to include the matter of decentralization into the constitution. Color me surprised. Let's see how that goes.

    In other news: IMF just pulled out of negotiations with Greece. This doesn't directly have anything to do with Ukraine but if you think hard enough you'll see how significant this is. Realization of Turkish Stream being one of them.
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    Post  whir on Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:08 pm

    Reuters wrote:IMF quits Greek talks; EU tells Tsipras: stop gambling
    Markets | Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:59am EDT WASHINGTON/BRUSSELS | BY ANNA YUKHANANOV AND RENEE MALTEZOU

    The International Monetary Fund dramatically raised the stakes in Greece's stalled debt talks on Thursday, announcing that its delegation had broken off negotiations in Brussels and flown home because of major differences with Athens.

    The surprise IMF announcement came as the European Union told leftist Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras bluntly to stop gambling with his cash-strapped country's future and take crucial decisions needed to avert a devastating default.

    A Greek source told Reuters that the entire Greek delegation that had been negotiating a cash-for-reform deal had left Brussels for home on Thursday, citing outstanding disagreements.

    "There are major differences between us in most key areas," IMF spokesman Gerry Rice told reporters in Washington. "There has been no progress in narrowing these differences recently and thus we are well away from an agreement."

    Greece needs a deal to unlock aid before the end of the month when it is otherwise set to default on a 1.6 billion euro ($1.80 billion) repayment to the Washington-based IMF.

    That could trigger capital controls and possibly send Greece hurtling toward an exit from the euro zone, with unpredictable consequences for financial markets and the European economy.

    Rice said the key sticking points remained pensions, taxes and financing. The IMF technical team had returned to the United States but remained "fully engaged" with Athens.

    European stocks fell after the IMF comments. Continue reading.

    UNIAN via Google Translate wrote:У МВФ підтвердили, що виділять Україні другий транш навіть у разі провалу переговорів із кредиторами
    The IMF confirmed that will provide Ukraine the second tranche even if the failure of negotiations with creditors
    11.06.2015 | 19:21

    The Fund has instruments that allow it to continue to lend to countries that can not cope with the obligations to private creditors.

    The Board of Directors of the main creditor Ukraine International Monetary Fund will decide about allocation of Kyiv second credit tranche program EFF $ 1.7 billion. immediately, as soon as the Ukrainian government will fulfill a number of preconditions for the reform program, said during a traditional briefing in Washington Director of IMF external relations Gerry Rice.

    "I have no details of a possible meeting of the Board of Directors. Everything will depend on how soon Ukraine will fulfill a number of preconditions - said Rice. - But I want to note that the Fund's head Christine Lagarde met with Prime Minister of Ukraine Arseniy Yatsenyuk, and they discussed the necessary questions. A compromise was found in almost all items. But discussions are continuing. "

    This Rice recalled that the issue of debt restructuring, which is also celebrated as one of the conditions for granting Ukraine tranche not removed from the agenda. "Yes, indeed. We hope that a compromise with creditors will still be found, it is important for Ukraine. But the deputy director of the IMF David Lipton has voiced the idea that the IMF has the tools that allow the Fund to continue to lend to countries that can not cope with the obligations to private creditors, "- concluded Rice. Continue reading.
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter on Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:19 pm


    News: Press Releases
    Jun 11 2015
    U.S. House Passes 3 Amendments By Rep. Conyers To Defense Spending Bill To Protect Civilians From Dangers Of Arming and Training Foreign Forces

    http://conyers.house.gov/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=0DC46F90-801E-433D-B565-5E8A67C81A83



    WASHINGTON— Late yesterday evening, the U.S. House of Representatives considered H.R. 2685, the “Department of Defense Appropriations Act of 2015.” During consideration of the legislation, Congressman John Conyers, Jr. (D-Mich.) and Congressman Ted Yoho (R-Fla.) offered bipartisan amendments to block the training of the Ukrainian neo-Nazi paramilitary militia “Azov Battalion,” and to prevent the transfer of shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles—otherwise known as Man-Portable Air-Defense Systems (MANPADS)—to Iraq or Ukraine.

    “If there’s one simple lesson we can take away from US involvement in conflicts overseas, it’s this: Beware of unintended consequences. As was made vividly clear with U.S. involvement in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion decades ago, overzealous military assistance or the hyper-weaponization of conflicts can have destabilizing consequences and ultimately undercut our own national interests,” said Rep. John Conyers. “I am grateful that the House of Representatives unanimously passed my amendments last night to ensure that our military does not train members of the repulsive neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, along with my measures to keep the dangerous and easily trafficked MANPADs out of these unstable regions.”

    Ukraine’s Azov Battalion is a 1,000-man volunteer militia of the Ukrainian National Guard that Foreign Policy Magazine has characterized as “openly neo-Nazi,” and “fascist.” Ukraine’s Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, who oversees Ukraine’s armed militias, announced that Azov troops would be among the first units to be trained by the Pentagon in Operation Fearless Guardian, prompting significant international concern.

    Since their initial use on a battlefield in 1978, MANPAD attacks have resulted in nearly 1,000 civilian deaths.

    Added Conyers, “Both U.S. and Israeli officials have feared that these weapons could be used by terrorists to bring down commercial jets. As the boundaries are increasingly blurred between insurgents fighting the Syrian government and those fighting the Iraqi government, providing additional arms could further destabilize the Middle East. The same can be said for Ukraine, where an anti-aircraft missile allegedly downed Flight MH17 last September, killing 298 civilians. The possibility that MANPADS—or any weapon—could fall into the hands of radical groups in Iraq, Syria, or Ukraine, would unquestionably increase the already-devastating human toll in both of these volatile regions.”

    According to Reuters, The Azov battalion originated from a paramilitary national socialist group called "Patriot of Ukraine", which propagated slogans of white supremacy, racial purity, the need for authoritarian power and a centralized national economy. Azov’s controversial founder, Andriy Biletsky, organized the neo-Nazi group the Social-National Assembly (SNA) in 2008.

    “The Azov men use the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel (Wolf’s Hook) symbol on their banner and members of the battalion are openly white supremacists, or anti-Semites,” wrote The Telegraph. Since Azov was enrolled as a regiment of Ukraine's National Guard in September and started receiving increased supplies of heavy arms, however, Biletsky has toned down his rhetoric, Reuters reported. According to the Washington Post, battalion members “could potentially strike pro-Russian targets on their own — or even turn on the [Ukrainian] government” if it pursues a diplomatic resolution to the conflict.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #15 - Page 23 Empty Tank farm in Kiev

    Post  chinggis on Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:20 pm

    Anyone know who is owner of tank farm which is burning near Kiev?
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter on Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:28 pm

    Ukraine's border service confirms foreign military equipment crossing country's border
    World
    June 11, 19:24
    US-Ukraine military drills are currently being conducted in west Ukraine's Lviv region

    http://tass.ru/en/world/800363
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    Post  whir on Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:30 pm

    chinggis wrote:Anyone know who is owner of tank farm which is burning near Kiev?
    The burning one is the main oil deposit for BRSM-nafta and the tank farm nearby is KLO's storage facilities.
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    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:30 pm

    The Strelkov vs Putin report is important . for Putin Bashers to read..

    Strelkov is no question a patriot.. and a great man.. but his logic is purely militaristic..
    He does not knows.. all the things that are happening in Russia and Europe..

    The believe that you can drive tanks to kiev ,and after overthrowing kiev.. maintain
    control of Ukraine with US and Poland and EUrope Financing unrest and arming guerrillas?
    With CIA /Mossad and Mi6 doing sabotage to Russia occupation to Kiev?

    Not even Americans could hold control of bagdad for more than 10 years..the population
    was hostile to americans.. and they were forced to leave. So it will be the same.. IF Russia
    invades Kiev , there will be no less than half the population very hostile to Russia.. and
    I don't think strelkov taught the possibility of Putin having to deal with Euromaidan unrest again
    as Yakunovych had to deal..  i neither think strelkov taught either the possibility of a massive
    retaliation of Euro Ukrainians to all etnic Russians by civilians... Risking the live of more thousands of people..  Russia will be forced to invade all Ukraine cities.. all of them..

    Did Strelkvo measured the cost of such operation on Russian budget?
    I don't think so... Did he ever measure the unrest on Russian cities for Russian soldiers
    being killed every day in a country that majority of its people does not want them and wants to be part of Europe?


    I think Putin strategy is the more logical one.. that is freeze the conflict.. and wait Ukrainians
    wake up. And see that they have no future with American controlling kiev and that Europe does not wants them.  Slowly now that is happening..   once Ukraine economy completely dies
    and IMF giveup loaning money and you see unrest in all Ukraine cities , not only in Donetsk and Lugansk but in all Ukraine people demanding Poroshenko to resign and many asking Russia
    to restore order. only then is when the real revolution will start... weapons will start to flow to
    all ukrainian cities from Russia and the Russian Army will have a clean path to kiev without
    major opposition. Since people will know Russia is their only hope to return Ukraine.

    Timing is the key.. and public opinion needs to change.. and Ukrainians give up their ideas to
    become part of europe. Since they don't want them. Like the Polish politician told..  Russia do have the probability to take all Ukraine back.. not just donetsk and lugansk.. and without people
    resisting much.. the crimean way or at least Georgian way.. they resist a few days and later stop fighting and allow RUssian tanks to drive peacefully.   Then Russia organize new election,
    cancel Ukraine Fascist dictatorship constitution and restore democracy with help of United Nations ,Belarus and friendly European nations. With full representation for Ethnic Russians in Kiev parliament..

    and trust me.. Russia will NOT annexe Donetsk or Lugansk ..even if invade.  Russia will need to stabilize their own economy first ,before paying the pensions of 5 millions more Ukrainians.. and restore Donetsk and Lugansk industry .. and then use Donetsk and lugansk
    to lure other cities into demanding their independence too.. and only when the war is over ,
    and kiev kicked from power by its own people... and public opinion favorable for Russia in most Ukraine , and when Russia economy finally strong ,only then is when Russia can start referendums for reversing Ukraine Independence if they want and turning it into an autonomous
    Republic of Russia..


    But is way too early for Russia annexing Ukraine.  the impact on Russia economy for doing that
    will be TOO BIG for too little reward.. I think Transnistria and Abkhazia and South ossetia have bigger change to become annexed earlier than Donetsk and Lugansk.. since they have been waiting for longer to become part of Russia. But in a decade or bit more.. If Russia economy take off.. you will see Russia again with most of  Ukraine and many other regions annexed into it..  

    Economy is all.. if Americans manage to isolate Russia from Europe and maintain forever a proxy war in Ukraine ,collapsing Russia economy ,not only Russia will be unable to help donetsk and lugansk. But it will also risk losing cities too..  You will see revolutions in Caucausus for independence.. etc.. a reapeat of Soviet Union collapse. This is why Russia need to carefully
    measure all their actions in Ukraine with price and economic cost for Russian budget.

    My prediction is there will be a world wide recession. Russia will be forced into a limited war with Ukraine by US,for small time and The Europeans lack of sovereignty and independence from Americans will force them  to nearly cut all their trade with Russia if not all of it.. including energy.  No only the mentality of Ukrainians needs to change for of the Europeans too.. and pro Independence movements needs to retake Europe away of Americans.

    So this is why in my opinion.. the times that Russia needs to boost its economy as much as possible ,and stabilize it as much as possible to be in a good shape to face the worse case
    scenarios.. but more important than anything .. Russian Government in the next days/weeks and years will need to raise the people support with the government as high as possible.  Because if an economic crisis happens and Russia have the support of its people ,they will handle it very well and people just adapt to the changes.  Ukraine fortunately does not have that support..and this is why they are doomed.. there is no way Americans will hold control of Ukraine for another decade. With a broken economy in kiev and a government pushing for a never ending war.

    SO economy is all ,economy is everything ,is the soul of nations.. without it.. a country cannot exist.. so is does not help if Russia army invade Ukraine to save Donetsk and Lugank and later
    they forced to retreat because no more money to continue finance the military operation.. Russia invading in full scale will also allow Poroshenko to artificially create unity in the nation against Russia.. if Ukrainians still believe the Ukrainian project and their unity with Europe is possible. . Putin needs to defeat Ukrainians mentality ,that they can live without Russia and that Europe will accept them.. or that anything good can come from US controlling their government and pushing them into a war with Russia.
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    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:28 pm

    A new Poll asking people in Crimea if they will sign a petition to
    a pre-emptive nuclear strike on United States..
    And as expected Russians society had more brains than Americans..



    To be honest if Russia had the capabilities and technology to defeat with 100% success any nuclear strike of NATO of thousands of missiles on Russia.. something revolutionary and very futuristic.. like an EMP field that destroy any missile automatically as soon it cross into RUssian airspace ,making it impossible to detonate. I will have signed that petition.. To drop a tactical nuke in the white house and another in Senate and Congress.. when they are in session and Enjoy the revolution for control of power. An american defeat in war will automatically collapse US economy and disband NATO and break the chains that holds the world hostage from US policies.. and end all the revolutions and and fight for imperialism of americans in the world and the financing of terrorism in middle east also will end.
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    Post  Flagship Victory on Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:23 pm

    Vann7 wrote:The Strelkov vs Putin report is important . for Putin Bashers to read..

    Strelkov is no question a patriot.. and a great man.. but his logic is purely militaristic..
    He does not knows.. all the things that are happening in Russia and Europe..

    The believe that you can drive tanks to kiev ,and after overthrowing kiev.. maintain
    control of Ukraine with US and Poland and EUrope Financing unrest and arming guerrillas?
    With CIA /Mossad and Mi6 doing sabotage to Russia occupation to Kiev?

    Not even Americans could hold control of bagdad for more than 10 years..the population
    was hostile to americans.. and they were forced to leave. So it will be the same.. IF Russia
    invades Kiev , there will be no less than half the population very hostile to Russia.. and
    I don't think strelkov taught the possibility of Putin having to deal with Euromaidan unrest again
    as Yakunovych had to deal..  i neither think strelkov taught either the possibility of a massive
    retaliation of Euro Ukrainians to all etnic Russians by civilians... Risking the live of more thousands of people..  Russia will be forced to invade all Ukraine cities.. all of them..

    Did Strelkvo measured the cost of such operation on Russian budget?
    I don't think so... Did he ever measure the unrest on Russian cities for Russian soldiers
    being killed every day in a country that majority of its people does not want them and wants to be part of Europe?


    I think Putin strategy is the more logical one.. that is freeze the conflict.. and wait Ukrainians
    wake up. And see that they have no future with American controlling kiev and that Europe does not wants them.  Slowly now that is happening..   once Ukraine economy completely dies
    and IMF giveup loaning money and you see unrest in all Ukraine cities , not only in Donetsk and Lugansk but in all Ukraine people demanding Poroshenko to resign and many asking Russia
    to restore order. only then is when the real revolution will start... weapons will start to flow to
    all ukrainian cities from Russia and the Russian Army will have a clean path to kiev without
    major opposition. Since people will know Russia is their only hope to return Ukraine.

    Timing is the key.. and public opinion needs to change.. and Ukrainians give up their ideas to
    become part of europe. Since they don't want them. Like the Polish politician told..  Russia do have the probability to take all Ukraine back.. not just donetsk and lugansk.. and without people
    resisting much.. the crimean way or at least Georgian way.. they resist a few days and later stop fighting and allow RUssian tanks to drive peacefully.   Then Russia organize new election,
    cancel Ukraine Fascist dictatorship constitution and restore democracy with help of United Nations ,Belarus and friendly European nations. With full representation for Ethnic Russians in Kiev parliament..

    and trust me.. Russia will NOT annexe Donetsk or Lugansk ..even if invade.  Russia will need to stabilize their own economy first ,before paying the pensions of 5 millions more Ukrainians.. and restore Donetsk and Lugansk industry .. and then use Donetsk and lugansk
    to lure other cities into demanding their independence too.. and only when the war is over ,
    and kiev kicked from power by its own people... and public opinion favorable for Russia in most Ukraine , and when Russia economy finally strong ,only then is when Russia can start referendums for reversing Ukraine Independence if they want and turning it into an autonomous
    Republic of Russia..


    But is way too early for Russia annexing Ukraine.  the impact on Russia economy for doing that
    will be TOO BIG for too little reward.. I think Transnistria and Abkhazia and South ossetia have bigger change to become annexed earlier than Donetsk and Lugansk.. since they have been waiting for longer to become part of Russia. But in a decade or bit more.. If Russia economy take off.. you will see Russia again with most of  Ukraine and many other regions annexed into it..  

    Economy is all.. if Americans manage to isolate Russia from Europe and maintain forever a proxy war in Ukraine ,collapsing Russia economy ,not only Russia will be unable to help donetsk and lugansk. But it will also risk losing cities too..  You will see revolutions in Caucausus for independence.. etc.. a reapeat of Soviet Union collapse. This is why Russia need to carefully
    measure all their actions in Ukraine with price and economic cost for Russian budget.

    My prediction is there will be a world wide recession. Russia will be forced into a limited war with Ukraine by US,for small time and The Europeans lack of sovereignty and independence from Americans will force them  to nearly cut all their trade with Russia if not all of it.. including energy.  No only the mentality of Ukrainians needs to change for of the Europeans too.. and pro Independence movements needs to retake Europe away of Americans.

    So this is why in my opinion.. the times that Russia needs to boost its economy as much as possible ,and stabilize it as much as possible to be in a good shape to face the worse case
    scenarios.. but more important than anything .. Russian Government in the next days/weeks and years will need to raise the people support with the government as high as possible.  Because if an economic crisis happens and Russia have the support of its people ,they will handle it very well and people just adapt to the changes.  Ukraine fortunately does not have that support..and this is why they are doomed.. there is no way Americans will hold control of Ukraine for another decade. With a broken economy in kiev and a government pushing for a never ending war.

    SO economy is all ,economy is everything ,is the soul of nations.. without it.. a country cannot exist.. so is does not help if Russia army invade Ukraine to save Donetsk and Lugank and later
    they forced to retreat because no more money to continue finance the military operation.. Russia invading in full scale will also allow Poroshenko to artificially create unity in the nation against Russia.. if Ukrainians still believe the Ukrainian project and their unity with Europe is possible. . Putin needs to defeat Ukrainians mentality ,that they can live without Russia and that Europe will accept them.. or that anything good can come from US controlling their government and pushing them into a war with Russia.

    Looks what Saudi Arabia does to Yemen. There is more than 1 option than driving tanks. CIA orchestrated Maidan. If I were a Russian, I'd make CIA pay for what they have done on Russia's doorstep.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:27 pm


    Pew Opinion Poll: Unity in Russia, Division in Europe, Collapse in Ukraine

    Pew opinion poll published in Financial Times confirms deep opposition amongst Western publics to a policy of military confrontation with Russia including over Ukraine.


    http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/pew-opinion-poll-unity-russia-division-nato-collapse-ukraine/ri7905

    An opinion poll by Pew published by the Financial Times tells its own story. ( http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b28f38ae-0ec3-11e5-848e-00144feabdc0.html#slide0 )

    In Russia the Ukrainian crisis has caused public opinion to unite behind Putin and the government:

       More than 80 per cent approve of how Mr Putin has handled relations with the US and the EU, while 63 per cent say their government respects their personal freedoms, a rise of 18 per cent since 2008.

    Within NATO public opinion is deeply divided, with opinion in continental Europe especially hostile to the idea of war with Russia and with almost half the public in NATO countries saying they would oppose going to war to defend even another NATO country against “Russian aggression”.

       Fewer than half of respondents in the UK, Poland, Spain, France, Italy and Germany would back using force to help defend a NATO ally that was under military threat from Russia.

    In Germany opinion is especially split, with a clear division on east-west lines, with east Germans significantly more pro-Russian than west Germans, but with Germans as a whole much more hostile to conflict with Russia than Americans or Britons.

       Almost two-thirds of Americans support Ukrainian membership of NATO compared with about a third of Germans. While 46 per cent of Americans back sending arms to Ukraine, just 19 per cent of Germans do.

       Almost as many eastern Germans have a favourable view of Mr Putin (40 per cent) as of the NATO alliance (46 per cent). Some 42 per cent want sanctions against Russia rolled back, compared with 26 per cent in western Germany.


    A finding by Pew that will particularly concern NATO chiefs is the high level of doubt of the US in Poland, with fewer than half of Poles believing the US would go to war to defend a NATO country like Poland in the event of a Russian attack.  Given Poland’s position on NATO’s front-line, NATO is likely to see that lack of confidence as especially worrying.

    All this after more than a year of relentless Western media drum-beating about “Russian aggression” in Ukraine, and following many years before that of media criticism of Russia generally.

    As for Ukraine itself, opinion polls confirm a collapse of confidence in its political leadership even significantly in western Ukraine with more than half respondents there now rating the Maidan government a “bad influence”

       Just a third of Ukrainian respondents think the Kiev government is having a positive influence, a 15 point decline over the past year.

       This shift is particularly marked in western Ukraine, where those seeing the government as a bad influence has increased from 28 to 54 per cent.

       President Petro Poroshenko’s approval ratings are at 22 per cent on the economy, and 28 per cent over the military conflict in eastern Ukraine, according to the Pew report.

    Whether Western leaders want to face the fact or not, their policy of confrontation is uniting Russia and creating divisions in Europe.  If NATO takes steps towards more confrontation with Russia the potential for an explosion of protest in Europe such as happened in the 1980s is there.

    The findings highlight political vulnerabilities that NATO officials fear Russia seeks to exploit, aiming to aggravate divisions on European measures against Russia such as sanctions while instilling doubts about the NATO alliance.
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    Post  chinggis on Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:07 pm

    thank you whir, if I am correctly understand you, BRMS-nafta is state owned company and KLO is privately owned( I can not find who is owner) but if it is correctly, then we can disable oligarch war
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    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:24 pm

    The lord of the Ukrainians.. lol1




    and... Natalia Poklonskaya's ,the Crimea prosecuter hottie got promotion..
    to general.

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150611/1023246201.html

    NOtice which Russian leader is her favorite..  Wink



    Interesting how she said , "There is no sacrifice i will make to save Russia"
    repeating the words of the last Romanov Tzar ,Is that is not patriotic no idea what it is..  Smile
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    Post  whir on Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:30 am

    chinggis wrote:thank you whir, if I am correctly understand you, BRMS-nafta is state owned company and KLO is privately owned( I can not find who is owner) but if it is correctly, then we can disable oligarch war
    Both are private, but oligarch's war can't be discarded since last November BRSM-nafta was acquired by FreezeOil Fund (Netherlands) and while BRSM-Nafta suspects arson was cause of fire at oil depot the rumour is that someone has been stealing shamelessly oil directly from the pipes and the fire is just a creative way to cover it and add to this that Turchynov said that in addition to opening criminal cases related to fire and loss of life, as "a criminal case on illegal arrangement of two tank farms in close proximity to the military unit." "Oilbases illegally built in the time of Yanukovych money when deciding any matter," - he said, adding that in this case already begun seizure of documents..
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    Post  whir on Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:42 am

    Graham Phillips wrote:My Message from Gorlovka

    Grisha - Special Report. (# 3) Gorlovka Today - 3 killed, 2 injured children

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    onwiththewar
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    Post  onwiththewar on Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:24 am

    Vann7 wrote:The Strelkov vs Putin report is important . for Putin Bashers to read..

    Strelkov is no question a patriot.. and a great man.. but his logic is purely militaristic..
    He does not knows.. all the things that are happening in Russia and Europe..

    The believe that you can drive tanks to kiev ,and after overthrowing kiev.. maintain
    control of Ukraine with US and Poland and EUrope Financing unrest and arming guerrillas?
    With CIA /Mossad and Mi6 doing sabotage to Russia occupation to Kiev?

    Not even Americans could hold control of bagdad for more than 10 years..the population
    was hostile to americans.. and they were forced to leave. So it will be the same.. IF Russia
    invades Kiev , there will be no less than half the population very hostile to Russia.. and
    I don't think strelkov taught the possibility of Putin having to deal with Euromaidan unrest again
    as Yakunovych had to deal..  i neither think strelkov taught either the possibility of a massive
    retaliation of Euro Ukrainians to all etnic Russians by civilians... Risking the live of more thousands of people..  Russia will be forced to invade all Ukraine cities.. all of them..

    Did Strelkvo measured the cost of such operation on Russian budget?
    I don't think so... Did he ever measure the unrest on Russian cities for Russian soldiers
    being killed every day in a country that majority of its people does not want them and wants to be part of Europe?


    I think Putin strategy is the more logical one.. that is freeze the conflict.. and wait Ukrainians
    wake up. And see that they have no future with American controlling kiev and that Europe does not wants them.  Slowly now that is happening..   once Ukraine economy completely dies
    and IMF giveup loaning money and you see unrest in all Ukraine cities , not only in Donetsk and Lugansk but in all Ukraine people demanding Poroshenko to resign and many asking Russia
    to restore order. only then is when the real revolution will start... weapons will start to flow to
    all ukrainian cities from Russia and the Russian Army will have a clean path to kiev without
    major opposition. Since people will know Russia is their only hope to return Ukraine.

    Timing is the key.. and public opinion needs to change.. and Ukrainians give up their ideas to
    become part of europe. Since they don't want them. Like the Polish politician told..  Russia do have the probability to take all Ukraine back.. not just donetsk and lugansk.. and without people
    resisting much.. the crimean way or at least Georgian way.. they resist a few days and later stop fighting and allow RUssian tanks to drive peacefully.   Then Russia organize new election,
    cancel Ukraine Fascist dictatorship constitution and restore democracy with help of United Nations ,Belarus and friendly European nations. With full representation for Ethnic Russians in Kiev parliament..

    and trust me.. Russia will NOT annexe Donetsk or Lugansk ..even if invade.  Russia will need to stabilize their own economy first ,before paying the pensions of 5 millions more Ukrainians.. and restore Donetsk and Lugansk industry .. and then use Donetsk and lugansk
    to lure other cities into demanding their independence too.. and only when the war is over ,
    and kiev kicked from power by its own people... and public opinion favorable for Russia in most Ukraine , and when Russia economy finally strong ,only then is when Russia can start referendums for reversing Ukraine Independence if they want and turning it into an autonomous
    Republic of Russia..


    But is way too early for Russia annexing Ukraine.  the impact on Russia economy for doing that
    will be TOO BIG for too little reward.. I think Transnistria and Abkhazia and South ossetia have bigger change to become annexed earlier than Donetsk and Lugansk.. since they have been waiting for longer to become part of Russia. But in a decade or bit more.. If Russia economy take off.. you will see Russia again with most of  Ukraine and many other regions annexed into it..  

    Economy is all.. if Americans manage to isolate Russia from Europe and maintain forever a proxy war in Ukraine ,collapsing Russia economy ,not only Russia will be unable to help donetsk and lugansk. But it will also risk losing cities too..  You will see revolutions in Caucausus for independence.. etc.. a reapeat of Soviet Union collapse. This is why Russia need to carefully
    measure all their actions in Ukraine with price and economic cost for Russian budget.

    My prediction is there will be a world wide recession. Russia will be forced into a limited war with Ukraine by US,for small time and The Europeans lack of sovereignty and independence from Americans will force them  to nearly cut all their trade with Russia if not all of it.. including energy.  No only the mentality of Ukrainians needs to change for of the Europeans too.. and pro Independence movements needs to retake Europe away of Americans.

    So this is why in my opinion.. the times that Russia needs to boost its economy as much as possible ,and stabilize it as much as possible to be in a good shape to face the worse case
    scenarios.. but more important than anything .. Russian Government in the next days/weeks and years will need to raise the people support with the government as high as possible.  Because if an economic crisis happens and Russia have the support of its people ,they will handle it very well and people just adapt to the changes.  Ukraine fortunately does not have that support..and this is why they are doomed.. there is no way Americans will hold control of Ukraine for another decade. With a broken economy in kiev and a government pushing for a never ending war.

    SO economy is all ,economy is everything ,is the soul of nations.. without it.. a country cannot exist.. so is does not help if Russia army invade Ukraine to save Donetsk and Lugank and later
    they forced to retreat because no more money to continue finance the military operation.. Russia invading in full scale will also allow Poroshenko to artificially create unity in the nation against Russia.. if Ukrainians still believe the Ukrainian project and their unity with Europe is possible. . Putin needs to defeat Ukrainians mentality ,that they can live without Russia and that Europe will accept them.. or that anything good can come from US controlling their government and pushing them into a war with Russia.

    Nobody wants war, we all want to live in peace. But if the other side started it first, and we look at "economy" first rather than going into the war and winning it, guess what's going to happen to us? We'll get slaughtered. We'll get annihilated. We will NOT have any peace.

    What's happening at Ukraine is exactly the same as what happened at Korea in 1950. So the entire "western world" plus their ex-colony countries, a whole united nation army vs North Korea + China + limited support from Russia. You think China, came out of the ruins of WWII, didn't want to build their economy? You think China didn't want the "international community" to "recognize" them ?

    Well, if the situation was dire and critical, losing North Korea means "the west" would have military base at China's doorstep, to hell with "economy", "sympathy", or whatever. They were non factors, when survival became a priority, war is the only solution.

    Of course, yes, USA threatened to Nuke China but it didn't happen, why would the "western world" start a nuclear war over a small country as in Korea? So China saw it, toughed out, went to war anyway, they didn't invade South Korea (attempted but didn't achieve much), but stopped the whole idea of western military invasion of China.

    Fact: Koren War bought China peace and economy growth. They didn't wuss out and received the reward. Russia also sacrificed there and Russia should admit officially.

    Fact: Great patriotic war bought Russia peace over other European countries. Russia or USSR didn't wuss out and received the reward.

    Fact: Peace process at Novorossiya, the 2 Minsk agreements, the fear of sanctions and economy downturn bought nothing. Russia wussed out, did NOT avoid sanctions, did NOT avoid European booing Russian singers at Eurovision 2015, did NOT manage to get ANY SYMPATHY from "western people" (I know there are many great souls such as Graham Philips, but every time his video upload only get a few hundred views, his efforts means nothing). Trying to get peace at Novorossiya == Novorossiyan people get slaughtered anyway and nobody cares.

    We don't know if Strelkov's logic holds, but Putin's one has failed. That's a fact. Any if you look at human history, peace loving people, mostly end up being extinct. England and France only became friendly after their Hundred Years' War. US China, although fought at Korea, are dominating world trade now. So you can't say Strelkov's logic is inferior until you actually try it out, again, human history proves his one will work better than Putin's one.

    So Ukraine actually owe Russian banks 25 Billion? And Russia never managed to install any dominate media agency or pro Russian organsistions at Kiev?? It's unbelievable. Putin is so naive or just incompetent. Maiden happened at virtually costs and Russia, owner of 100% Ukraine debt in the amount of 25 billion, didn't manage to stop it. That's very sad. When Strelkov appeared on Russian TV, the TV guy asked him, "If Ukraine is an independent country, why the heck did you bother??" I couldn't believe it.

    Having said all above. I agree Putin and current RF leadership still has reasonable will to fight it out. There are subtle changes at Novorossiya, both leaders have said, at the same time, that they will not remain in Ukraine, either being independent or being part of RF. They even said there will be no minsk 3. So the "defacto independence" is no more, and joining Russia, after nobody talked about it for almost a year, is brought back again.

    Military wise, Givi and moto, are back to the front stage again and Vostoks took some action at Marinka. It seems Russia and Novorossiya finally realised they do need to fight it out to the end. Not just "fight a little bit, cry a little bit, then wait for 'international community' to interfere and help". They should have done so at the start. They captured this Uki guy, having him saying Ukraine started offensive at Marinka, then they let him go. Then 2 days later, this guy re-joined Ukrainian army and said he was forced at gunpoint. On the other hand, our guys were hanged, or having his fingers cut. This stupid "showing of good will" means RF and Novorossiya still have fantasies in "peace", which is ridiculous.

    As we know, the other side, want to "nuke us", want to "kills us all". How could there be peace??




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    Post  Flagship Victory on Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:46 am

    I completely agree with onwiththewar. Did Germans fight in WW2 with economy? No. Do Syrians fight with economy? No. Poroshenko makes poor Ukrainians fight, not with economy but rather with the lie that Russia is invading Ukraine. Unless NAF takes Kiev and arrest Poroshenko, don't expect this war to ever end.

    We westerners are bold. If we have a cause, we do it. If we do something, we don't hide it. I guess it's a cultural thing. What a Face The US bombed the heck out of Serbia to free Kosovo from Serbian troops. If the US sees an injustice, the US will do something about it, and openly at that.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:48 am

    Our pretty girl in Crimea has just been promoted. Her rank now is equal to Major General. Before that, her rank was equal to Colonel.

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150611/1069511962.html (In Russian)

    Поклонская получила генеральский чин

    Президент РФ Владимир Путин присвоил прокурору Крыма Наталье Поклонской чин госсоветника юстиции 3 класса. До этого Поклонская была старшим советником юстиции (соответствует званию полковника).
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    Post  Vann7 on Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:09 am

    Flagship Victory wrote:I completely agree with onwiththewar. Did Germans fight in WW2 with economy? No. Do Syrians fight with economy? No. Poroshenko makes poor Ukrainians fight, not with economy but rather with the lie that Russia is invading Ukraine. Unless NAF takes Kiev and arrest Poroshenko, don't expect this war to ever end.

    We westerners are bold. If we have a cause, we do it. If we do something, we don't hide it. I guess it's a cultural thing. What a Face The US bombed the heck out of Serbia to free Kosovo from Serbian troops. If the US sees an injustice, the US will do something about it, and openly at that.

    But but Russia is not invaded.. wars when they start they need to have an Objective.. and Goal..
    What kind of Goal ,you think Russia can achieve in Ukraine in a full scale invasion .. if NATO supports kiev and give them endless weapons and endless mercenaries?

    Can Russia achieve " Peace" in Ukraine if NATO continues giving weapons forever to kiev?
    CAn RUssia achieve peace if Russia takes kiev by force and half of Ukraine start Euromaidan 3.0 to kick Russia from kiev?
    US and is Rusophobics allies can keep the war in Ukraine for years . If Russia invades. their army will be responsible for providing all the food and basic things to the people in Ukraine.

    You cannot compare a communist nation like CHINA that protest are illegal and most people were farmers .

    WIll the Russian people react in the same way of Communist chinesse in a war and be happy
    with just living very poor . Specially in a war that is not to defend their nation from an invasion?
    instead a preventive war? i don't think so.. What collapsed the soviet union was the economy..
    and any territory Russia capture in Ukraine is territory they will have to finance with their own budget. as already they doing in DOnetsk and Lugansk.

    Just think about it.. could the americans ends the war in vietnam? not they couldn't .. they could start the war but not end it.. If Russia invades Ukraine ,they will for sure control every city
    they enter without problems.. but it will have to face Unrest and civilians protest asking Russia
    to stop and leave.. It will be a field day for western media about Russia agression..

    If far better for me.. that Russia collapse Ukraine economy and disband the entire nation ,that
    way when no longer Ukrainians have any hope and feel hungry ,that they will embrace Russia
    restoring order.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:24 am

    S3xual intercouse btw an Ukie BMP-2 and an Ukie T-64 pwnd pwnd

    Dunno whether pornographic pics of armoured vehicle violated the forum's rules pwnd pwnd

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    Post  Guest on Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:00 am

    higurashihougi wrote:S3xual intercouse btw an Ukie BMP-2 and an Ukie T-64 pwnd pwnd

    Dunno whether pornographic pics of armoured vehicle violated the forum's rules pwnd pwnd

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #15 - Page 23 10433780_1653401868224207_1510318332006750567_n
    Yikes. Ukraine really has gone down the slope. And it is tracked on tracked intercourse! Very kinky indeed...


    Last edited by Ivan the Colorado on Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:02 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spellang iz bed)
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    Post  auslander on Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:35 am

    I get pick of the litter.

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