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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow on Sun May 19, 2013 12:42 pm

    Russian air defense system is only strong in the Moscow and Petersburg area.
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    Post  bantugbro on Sun May 19, 2013 3:03 pm

    Arrow wrote:Russian air defense system is only strong in the Moscow and Petersburg area.

    What is your point?
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    Post  Department Of Defense on Sun May 19, 2013 4:56 pm

    Arrow wrote:Russian air defense system is only strong in the Moscow and Petersburg area.

    I assume by the word strong you mean "Potent" . Yes , the air defense system in other parts of Russia is fragile . BUT that can be said about US or Chinese cities as well . With the exception of the major urban conglomerates other cities are prone to an air assault or missile strike .

    The idea is always to safeguard your most valuable assets .

    It's important to understand that S 400 is not designed to intercept US MIRVs because the bus which holds all the warheads has a small rocket engine, which it uses shortly after the booster separates to maneuver. At appropriate points it pickles off individual reentry vehicles (RVs and various decoys) so that they hit their independent targets.This happens soon after the booster separates in order to maximize the possible spread of targets.

    The individual RVs of Trident 5 have maneuvering capability RVs , some of the warheads are released by a small rocket motor to put them on the correct reentry trajectory towards their targets making it impossible for the S 400 to intercept them.
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    Post  UVZ3485 on Mon May 20, 2013 1:13 am

    @DoD

    Sorry,but the S-400 cannot intercept the trident 5 RVs,they´re just to fast as its max. target speed is 4,8 km/s and the trident 5 would be faster than this,assuming the S-400 battery would be connected to the ABM-Radar-Network and especially the Don-2N so it would have a chance to detect the RVs at all,not counting any Penaids it would have to distinguish the real RVs from.
    Any ABM,Russian or American shouldn´t be relied upon vs. modern targets.
    This is IMO a very good article(on a very good site,even though i dont agree with everything they publish):://russianforces.org/blog/2012/10/very_modest_expectations_sovie.shtml

    And of course,the claim about the russian IADS being impotent outside of Moscow and St.Pete......well BS to say the least(no offense),here also an article from a very good site:
    ://geimint.blogspot.de/2012/07/strong-get-stronger.html (add http in front on both links)

    I think the owner is a registered user here Wink and i hope he doesn´t mind me using his work to prove my assumptions pirat ,unfortunately his analysis of the russian IADS isn´t available anymore but this should be enough to illustrate,that the russian IADS is still(by far) the strongest in the world,even if not as strong as the soviet one.
    PS.: this link-rule is strange,but ok....im the newbie
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon May 20, 2013 4:09 am

    Viktor wrote:Thing is that Russians when making stuff always make 100 variation of the same thing (no matter what that is)

    during development and after (while developing modernization) and there you can really see anything.

    This missile looks like 48N6 added with extra pair of fins at the top and with some kind of smaller 9M83 nozzles attached to it.

    It looks very cool though.

    Sharp eye stealthflanker.

    Viktor,

    What you have said in the first sentence of your post is very accurate, but in this case, the gray object is just the second stage (plus the interstage) of a missile from the S-75 family, without its wings.

    Regards,
    Morpheus


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon May 20, 2013 5:12 am; edited 1 time in total
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Mon May 20, 2013 5:07 am

    I had the same thought, probably a target drone.
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    Post  Department Of Defense on Mon May 20, 2013 6:32 pm

    UVZ3485 wrote:@DoD Sorry,but the S-400 cannot intercept the trident 5 RVs

    That's what I said in my previous post as well . The S 400 is not designed to intercept MIRVs .
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    Post  TR1 on Mon May 20, 2013 11:30 pm

    Quick question- let's talk about average/maximum speeds of the S-300V4 and S-400 systems.
    Who has the fastest rounds?
    Antei has faster acceleration due to the huge booster.
    In terms of target speed + range, the latest versions seem to be similar to each other, despite very different missiles.
    No energy advantage for Antei?

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    Post  Viktor on Tue May 21, 2013 12:47 am

    TR1 wrote:Quick question- let's talk about average/maximum speeds of the S-300V4 and S-400 systems.
    Who has the fastest rounds?
    Antei has faster acceleration due to the huge booster.
    In terms of target speed + range, the latest versions seem to be similar to each other, despite very different missiles.
    No energy advantage for Antei?


    S-300V4 has the fastest missiles and the missiles with the furthest range. At the moment S-300V4 is the king.

    Until 40N6 class enters service within S-400 system, Antej rules


    S-400 200km range missiles (48N6)
    S-300V4 350km range missiles (9M82M)


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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 21, 2013 11:16 am

    Until the S-500 with the highest speed, highest altitude and longest range and designed to engage RVs from SLBMs and ICBMs...
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    Post  Viktor on Tue May 21, 2013 2:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:Until the S-500 with the highest speed, highest altitude and longest range and designed to engage RVs from SLBMs and ICBMs...

    true but satellites in LEO, hi flying hypersonic targets and areal targets as well Very Happy

    S-500 will most likely be based on S-300V concept and at the moment its 9M82M missile can reach more than 2600km/h (how much more is not

    specified) with 350km range (and the huge warhead) is the most terrifying missile there is.

    I would say that at the moment S-300V4 is the panache of the Russian air defense. (until S-400 gets its missiles Very Happy )

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    Post  TR1 on Tue May 21, 2013 10:23 pm

    Right everything indicates S-300V has much higher maximum velocity, and as well much higher maximum cruise speed than S-300 complexes. S-300 used to have longer range vs airplane type targets.
    But now the gap seems to be met- in fact more so, overtaken with S-300V4. I am assuming the increased range is for the 9m82 logically.
    How was the massive increased range achieved, do we have any specific info? Are the missile speeds maintained, or would it realistically be traveling @ ~750 m/s @ the far end of the engagement envelope? 48N6 doesn't have such a huge booster, yet less range + speed? Am I understimating its speed?



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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 22, 2013 3:23 am

    Trajectory and flight profile have a lot to do with range... the old S-300 missiles could actually reach much further than they did when they first entered service simply by launching them on a high flight profile... like firing a cannon shell up at 45 degrees rather than more or less directly at the target allowing for shell drop.

    By firing them at 45 degrees they maximise their range (actually for long range missiles the angle is not actually 45 degrees because the faster the missile gets high into the thinner colder air the more it accelerates, but lets just use 45 degrees and keep it simple), as the missile approaches the location of the target it can change its course and dive down on the target with max energy and speed.

    Even long range AAMs benefit from flying very high... the long range model of the R-27, the R-27E models were designed to defeat enemy aircraft armed with the late model Sparrows by adopting a lofted trajectory for maximum speed to try to hit the enemy aircraft first which of course stops that aircraft from illuminating your aircraft with radar so their Sparrow will not hit you. With ARH missiles like AMRAAM however the Alamo might hit the enemy plane first because of its high flight speed, but the friendly aircraft would still need to evade the incoming AMRAAM.

    It should of course be pointed out that speed can be useful in an interception but any baseball player playing a bunt, or cricketer playing and defensive block will tell you that there is no need for the interceptor to be moving at anything like the speed of the object it is intercepting... you just need to detect the target early... determine a precise interception point and get your interceptor to that point in time for both to coincide in time and space. Obviously the Bowler or Pitchers job is to manipulate the target so that it deviates slightly from the intended interception point with swing or spin or other methods to get past the interceptor of the batter.
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    Post  Viktor on Wed May 22, 2013 3:27 am

    TR1 wrote:Right everything indicates S-300V has much higher maximum velocity, and as well much higher maximum cruise speed than S-300 complexes. S-300 used to have longer range vs airplane type targets.
    But now the gap seems to be met- in fact more so, overtaken with S-300V4. I am assuming the increased range is for the 9m82 logically.
    How was the massive increased range achieved, do we have any specific info? Are the missile speeds maintained, or would it realistically be traveling @ ~750 m/s @ the far end of the engagement envelope? 48N6 doesn't have such a huge booster, yet less range + speed? Am I understimating its speed?

    I think the greatest irony that happened after the fall of Soviet Union and the rapid degradation of now Russia armed forces was the

    rapid increase in Russia SAMs capability.

    Air defense of Russia after the fall of Soviet Union shrinked approximately five times but its efficiency increased many more times and

    will continue to rise even more rapidly with the introduction of the new systems like S-500/S-4000/Vityaz/Pancir-S1/Tor-M2/Morfei/Verba/

    and the modernization of the "old" systems like S-300PS/PM brought to Favorit standard and S-300V to S-300V4 standard, BUK-M1 etc

    and thats only half of the story - the real prize where the command centers and radar systems.

    I believe that with the now open borders Russia was flooded with the cheap electronic which Russian air defense companies knew how to use

    to achieve such brutal ranges earlier unthinkable and absolutely terrifying for any foreign military planers.

    Summing up the benefits:

    1. Huge increase in range observed with all Russian SAM

    2. Huge increase in missile guidance channels

    3. Easily and cheaply upgradeable old radar systems with new processing power

    4. Huge increase in command post ability to control more divisions and air detachment/ECM/passive radar etc (previously done by higher
    echelon command posts)

    5. Much much less electric power consumption for any command posts (radar and ASU)

    6. Command post and all accompanied equipment shrinked in size at least a double, increasing mobility and number of operators

    7. Introduction of wireless communication (allowed unbelievable SAM flexibility and positioning )

    8. Ability of command posts to process much more targets at the same time (this was becoming bottle neck in Soviet Union air defense and
    with the introduction of saturation attacks)

    9. Much more compact radar systems with more precise information about the targets, smaller in size for the huge increase in detection
    range and its operational life time and MTBF (which was much worse than with the western ones previously)

    10. New radar command posts, small, able to process huge number of targets, with only few operators and small power consumption

    is I think only some of the things that I could think of right now but certainly not all. Interesting thing is that as far as I know

    most of the modernized systems that received new electronics kept old algorithm of its functioning (because that was masterfully done

    in the first place).

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    Post  Deep Throat on Wed May 22, 2013 4:45 pm

    Russia will have space based assets to destroy incoming MIRVs .
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    Post  gaurav on Sun May 26, 2013 10:12 am


    What you have said in the first sentence of your post is very accurate, but in this case, the gray object is just the second stage (plus the interstage) of a missile from the S-75 family, without its wings.

    Vow vow..info man..
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    Post  gaurav on Sun May 26, 2013 10:20 am

    Russia is not foolish..
    Compare that patriot crap .. with oldest version of s-300.. they dont compare simply..

    It has huge air defense industry that is ground based.. that is almost 80-90 % of all the ongoing programs..
    It huge space based program but for recon, imaging and comm purpose.. not for anything else..

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    Post  Viktor on Mon May 27, 2013 6:11 pm

    This is fricking huge. Very Happy

    C-300 "reflect" a massive air strike on Russia


    During the inspection crews quickly deployed C-300 and will monitor the situation in order to detect and destroy ballistic targets represented a real target.


    MOSCOW, May 27 - RIA Novosti. Four defense regiment during a regular spot checks of readiness of the Armed Forces on Monday be moved to Ashuluk (Astrakhan region) to reflect the massive missile strike.

    "Planes Military transport aircraft crews being transferred to the landfill Ashuluk where in an environment as close to the fighting, will work out a set of practical tasks to repel a massive missile and aviation air strike imaginary enemy" - the Ministry of Defense.


    During the inspection crews quickly deployed C-300 and will monitor the situation in order to detect and destroy ballistic targets represented a real target. "The air situation in the area of ​​the cover will be complicated by massive raids fighters, simulating the action of the imaginary enemy at all altitudes and speeds," - said the agency.


    Meanwhile, electronic warfare equipment will cause harmful interference, which only make the calculation of the S-300.
    The beginning of a new dawn raids readiness of the Russian army on Monday morning announced the chief of the General Staff, Army General Valery Gerasimov. Checking the last three days, in the course of a military campaign, "reflect" aerospace attack. As reported, the alarm raised by 8.7 thousand people, 185 combat aircraft and 240 armored fighting vehicles.

    The last spot check took place in the Russian army in late March - then President Vladimir Putin in the early morning suddenly gave the order to start the exercises in the Black Sea area. They have been involved about 7,000 people, 30 ships, 250 armored vehicles, 50 artillery pieces, 20 combat aircraft and helicopters, rapid deployment forces, airborne troops and special forces. Sudden exercise took place in a region where less than a year, the Olympics will be held in Sochi.

    RIA Novosti commentator Konstantin Bogdanov , "Well, if these teachings would cease to be events which are taking off the front pages of newspapers, and will be included in the routine. This is the kind of reliable indicator: when all skanet bored of what a couple of tens of thousands of people suddenly threw back across half the country and made ​​to solve the problem of not so familiar terrain, then everything in the armed forces is as it should. "

    LINK
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    Post  Firebird on Mon May 27, 2013 11:04 pm

    Viktor wrote:This is fricking huge. Very Happy

    C-300 "reflect" a massive air strike on Russia


    During the inspection crews quickly deployed C-300 and will monitor the situation in order to detect and destroy ballistic targets represented a real target.


    MOSCOW, May 27 - RIA Novosti. Four defense regiment during a regular spot checks of readiness of the Armed Forces on Monday be moved to Ashuluk (Astrakhan region) to reflect the massive missile strike.

    "Planes Military transport aircraft crews being transferred to the landfill Ashuluk where in an environment as close to the fighting, will work out a set of practical tasks to repel a massive missile and aviation air strike imaginary enemy" - the Ministry of Defense.


    During the inspection crews quickly deployed C-300 and will monitor the situation in order to detect and destroy ballistic targets represented a real target. "The air situation in the area of ​​the cover will be complicated by massive raids fighters, simulating the action of the imaginary enemy at all altitudes and speeds," - said the agency.


    Meanwhile, electronic warfare equipment will cause harmful interference, which only make the calculation of the S-300.
    The beginning of a new dawn raids readiness of the Russian army on Monday morning announced the chief of the General Staff, Army General Valery Gerasimov. Checking the last three days, in the course of a military campaign, "reflect" aerospace attack. As reported, the alarm raised by 8.7 thousand people, 185 combat aircraft and 240 armored fighting vehicles.

    The last spot check took place in the Russian army in late March - then President Vladimir Putin in the early morning suddenly gave the order to start the exercises in the Black Sea area. They have been involved about 7,000 people, 30 ships, 250 armored vehicles, 50 artillery pieces, 20 combat aircraft and helicopters, rapid deployment forces, airborne troops and special forces. Sudden exercise took place in a region where less than a year, the Olympics will be held in Sochi.

    RIA Novosti commentator Konstantin Bogdanov , "Well, if these teachings would cease to be events which are taking off the front pages of newspapers, and will be included in the routine. This is the kind of reliable indicator: when all skanet bored of what a couple of tens of thousands of people suddenly threw back across half the country and made ​​to solve the problem of not so familiar terrain, then everything in the armed forces is as it should. "

    LINK

    Yes this is pretty big. As was the last one.

    I wonder what the biggest potential (reasonably possible)problem Russia could experience would be?

    I see a situation with America as extremely unlikely. Georgia chancing their arm is unlikely. So that maybe leaves problems in the Caucuses.

    The other options are Japan (Kurils). Maybe a Baltic state harrassing Russian citizens, and Nato messing around on -the periphery. China would have to be pretty
    -dumb -maybe meddling in a Central Asian state?

    Hmm..
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    Post  Viktor on Tue May 28, 2013 3:26 am

    They fricking airlifted 4 S-300 air defense regiments - incredible, Im stunned Shocked

    - 185 fighters
    - 8700 PVO Troopers
    - march to previously unknown location
    - repelling of mass ballistic, cruise and fighter attacks in heavy ECM environment


    S-300 Air Defense Systems Deployed at Snap Alert Drills



    Four regiments of S-300 air defense systems have been deployed at the Ashuluk firing range in southern Russia as part of another snap combat readiness check of the Russian armed forces, the Defense Ministry said.
    The regiments were airlifted on Thursday by military transport planes to designated drop zones where they will carry out a variety of missions simulating the defense of the Russian airspace from massive attacks by “enemy” missiles and aircraft


    S-300 Air Defense Systems Deployed at Snap Alert Drills

    We are talking about (most likely) two mixed brigades (by old standard) of S-300 with combined ability to guide 288 48N6 class missiles

    at 144 targets at once + many other things. Few countries in the world have air force strong enough to cope with

    this kind of firepower especially if we take in the consideration those 185 fighters deployed. russia thumbsup
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    Post  gaurav on Tue May 28, 2013 6:51 am

    ria novosti in Eng
    3 day exercises ashuluk

    These huge exercises are only of 3 days by tomorrow they will be over.
    All the transport of war equipment was done previous week.

    The regiments were airlifted on Thursday by military transport planes to designated drop zones where they will carry out a variety of missions simulating the defense
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 28, 2013 8:54 am

    I like these "surprise" tests, they will go a long way to identify real problems and to find out what needs attention and what is working.

    I wonder what the biggest potential (reasonably possible)problem Russia could experience would be?

    The advantage of going for this mobility and surprise no warning action exercises it means they don't need to know well in advance where the problem might be... they will be ready for anything...
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 28, 2013 9:11 am

    185 aircraft an over 200 armoured vehicles in an alert for the VKKO... aerospace defence forces... clearly they are more than just radars, satellites and SAMs...
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    Post  Austin on Tue May 28, 2013 1:18 pm

    I dont understand why do Russian fire expensive missile like S-300 in exercise unless these are EOL product that any way needs to be discarded.

    These are very expensive missile and it is better to train Air Defence personal on simulators mostly and may be once fire real missile in exercise.
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    Post  medo on Tue May 28, 2013 5:31 pm

    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201305280924-f47r.htm


    They use S-300 complexes, that are already in Ashuluk and didn't take their own which are on duty. So it is possible, that they use older missiles for those live firings, where crews get practical skills firing on different targets. Such unexpected exercises actually show, what is real combat value of units.

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