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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    Post  Arrow Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:38 pm

    What was the fastest ballistic missile tested against S-300V, and S-400 ?
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    Post  Viktor Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:50 am

    Arrow wrote:What was the fastest ballistic missile tested against S-300V, and S-400 ?

    I think the only available date about it is recent 2.8km/sec during S-400 testing.

    So basically we have.

    Airdefense forces (mobile)

    S-300PM - upgrade
    S-400 - new system with new big missile and ASAT/ABM/hypersonic cruise missile capabilities
    S-500 - new system with ASAT/ABM hypersonic cruise missile capabilites

    Army (mobile)

    S-400V4 - upgrade

    Airspace defenses

    A-135 - upgrade fix ABM system
    Samolets-M - new fix ABM system

    All along with horde of with other airdefense systems with lesser range.

    Nice.
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    Post  Arrow Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:35 pm

    I think the only available date about it is recent 2.8km/sec during S-400 testing.

    But what kind of target (missile) was use during the S 400 ABM tests?
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:37 am

    I rather suspect the claimed performances of current large SAMs have mostly estimated performances in terms of its reaction time and flight speed and profile and the range and performance of the sensors in terms of discrimination and accuracy as well as manouver capability etc.

    For actual tests they have a range of missiles they can launch in depressed trajectories and different flight speeds to be suitable for different tests.

    The 4.8km/s target speed could be simulated by a range of old ballistic missile targets with specific flight profiles for instance.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:00 am

    Just make a short "essay" of SAGG,TVM and GAI as my Deviant art journal entry Laughing

    http://stealthflanker.deviantart.com/#/d5jni0r

    My credit to SOC for his valuable info to make it happen Very Happy
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:34 pm

    I didn't find a suitable topic and I think this is related to the S-400/500...

    Report on the 'Nebo-M' radar (in Russian) which mentions that the state tests were completed in October 2011. The first unit is scheduled to be inducted by the end of the year. 100 units are planned by 2020.



    Has impressive range:

    According to the data of the developer (JSC "FSPC" NIIRT ") the detection range of aerodynamic and ballistic objects by 55ZH6M complex is 1,800 km, height - 1200 km.


    Arrow http://bmpd.livejournal.com/373597.html
    .
    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1 - Page 20 IqNEE

    More pics here: Arrow http://saidpvo.livejournal.com/86793.html
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    Post  medo Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:22 pm

    Nebo-M will for sure serve in VKO and VVS PVO, so it will be connected with S-400/500. I wonder how development of Mars radar for S-500 is going.
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    Post  TR1 Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:24 am

    http://s47.radikal.ru/i118/1211/09/8465dc79e42f.jpg

    Looks like a new launcher for the S-400, to replace the trailer.
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    Post  medo Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:59 pm

    Maybe trailers are fine around Moscow, but for other VKO units more mobile launchers work better.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:47 am

    I rather suspect that different platforms will be used for different roles.

    For defending something that doesn't move like a communications hub, or a major airfield, or Moscow, then a trailer system is much cheaper to buy and to operate. For defending mobile things like a mobile HQ or to provide temporary air cover during an exercise or operation then a more mobile platform makes more sense even though it will cost more than a trailer base.
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    Post  TheArmenian Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:21 pm

    More photos of the mobile S-400 launcher.

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/24814/
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    Post  Austin Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:35 pm

    So do we have any updated information on the Big Missile of S-400 series 40N6 or still the information is scarce ?
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    Post  Austin Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:11 am

    I was watching at videos of PAC-3 test and I found the missile to be very fast , check the videos

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT6DzaG_658


    Can some one tell me which is the fastest missile ,PAC-3 ,S-300PMU1 or S-300PMU2 ?

    BTW here is a video of Indian BMD test , the missile seen is AAD and has a top speed of Mach 4.5

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAyRhIH-9cE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX7NCLTqQ
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:43 pm

    PAC-3 is a smaller lighter missile than Patriot and uses a hit to kill payload... its initial speed will likely be higher because its overall mass is lower... the penalty of course is that it will lose velocity faster too which will result in a shorter range... especially against lower altitude targets.

    Watch a TOPOL launch and see how slow it is... of course its power to weight ratio at launch is fairly low, but its top speed and range will be much much higher than PAC-3.
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    Post  Mindstorm Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:23 am


    I was watching at videos of PAC-3 test and I found the missile to be very fast , check the videos

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT6DzaG_658


    Austin what you see in this video is ,very likely -and just for its speed-, an ERINT; it is in the same category of 9M96 missile ,also in the speed department (average 900/950 m/s against 900/1000 M/s for the 9M96 ) .
    Try to put it against something in the 48N6 category is obviously an unfair comparison ,the speed of similar missiles is more than double that of theirs lighter counterparts.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwiski_xGaY



    Both PAC-3 and 9M96 were conceived to be efficient also against tactical ballistic missiles while, contemporaneously, reducing mass and volume to achieve the increase to 3-4 times the number of carried missiles for single launcher .

    9M96 in tests ,demonstarted capability to hit directly the warhead of an incoming tactical ballistic missile in 70% of the times ,at any extent an hit-to kill neutralization expanded by warhead detonation (this is an important point because on several secondary sources have wrongly reported that 9M96 had achieved a PK of 70% against tactical ballistic missiles Rolling Eyes ) while in all the remaining instances to pass well within lethal range of its warhead assuring its destruction


    This is the relevant part from an article, "ФАКЕЛ" НА РУБЕЖЕ ВЕКОВ, by V. Svetlov ,Chief designer of "Fakel".


    На фоне впечатляющих достижений, которые получены разработчиками ракет для РАС-3 и "Астер", ракеты "Факела" заметно выделяются своими характеристиками. Крайне незначительно отличаясь друг от друга по размерам и массе (масса 9М96Е и 9М96Е2 соответственно 330 и 420 кг), эти ракеты могут поражать цели на дальностях соответственно от 1 до 40 и 120 км и высотах от 5 м до 20 и 30 км, что превосходит соответствующие показатели у "Астеров" и ракеты для РАС-3. В отличие от своих зарубежных аналогов 9М96Е и 9М96Е2 используют "холодный" вертикальный старт: перед запуском маршевого двигателя они выбрасываются из контейнера на высоту более 30 м. В процессе подъема на эту высоту ракета склоняется в сторону цели с помощью газодинамической системы, что позволяет достичь минимальной границы ближней зоны поражения. После запуска маршевого двигателя на начальном и среднем участках траектории полета используется инерциально-корректируемое наведение, что позволяет добиться максимальной помехозащищенности, а в процессе перехвата цели - самонаведения. Перед точкой встречи с целью ракета способна реализовать режим "сверхманевренности", для чего используется газодинамическая система управления, которая позволяет за 0.025 с увеличить аэродинамическую перегрузку ракеты на двадцать единиц.

    Испытания новых ракет проводятся с использованием самых совершенных программ компьютерного моделирования, в которых используются результаты, получаемые как в ходе наземных, так и летно-стендовых испытаний. Результаты испытаний и исследований показывают, что 9М96Е и 9М96Е2 имеют практически 70-процентную вероятность прямого попадания в боеголовку тактической баллистической ракеты или боевую часть высокоточной ракеты. Во всех остальных случаях промах не превышает нескольких метров. Для того чтобы и в этом случае боевое снаряжение цели было уничтожено, 9М96Е и 9М96Е2 оснащены 24-кг боевой частью с управляемым (за счет применения системы многоточечного инициирования) полем поражения.


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    Post  medo Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:40 am

    Any informations, how Vityaz project is going? It's all quiet.
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    Post  TR1 Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:20 am

    Nice info about 9m96 Mindstorm, thanks.

    So much for Russia not having hit-to-kill capability.
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    Post  Mindstorm Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:53 am


    Nice info about 9m96 Mindstorm, thanks.


    Actually 9M96...E


    So much for Russia not having hit-to-kill capability.

    Yes, several secondary sources -in particular controled ones...- try in an almost systematic way to distort original statements (usually avoiding to cite directly the source to avoid the deception to be easily unveiled) to sell a vastly "downgraded" version of the achievement ; in this way inferior competitor systems can appear in a better light Rolling Eyes

    9M96 missiles have shown in all tests a Pk against tactical ballistic missiles equal to 1 !!! , of which0,7 achieved through direct hit on the balistic missile's warhead
    The fundamental difference is that US competing interceptors to attempt to match the astounding kinematic performances of 9M96 has been forced at reduce at maximum theirs inertial mass renouncing completely to a detonating warhead ,the related accessory elements and some actuators .
    Naturally the effect is that anytime the interceptor come even only at 20 -30 cm from ballistic missile's silhouette , the offensive element remain totally undamaged.

    This has been evident in the last tests of U.S. Missile Defense Agency of the last 24 October, involving PAC-3 and SM3-Block IA against two cruise missiles and three short range ballsitic missiles, when SM3-Block IA has intercepted in the test only 2 on 3 (66%) of the short range ballistic missiles shot.


    http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_11_05_2012_p37-512323.xml

    What is even more surprising than this scarce result is know that this one was the first time that U.S. Missile Defense Agency had conducted a similar multitarget interception test !!!!

    “We worked many years to get to this point,” says Dennis Cavin, vice president of U.S. Army and missile defense programs for Lockheed Martin. “For the first time in a live-fire event, multiple weapon systems engaged a raid of multiple targets simultaneously,”




    Laughing Laughing No surprise that LM expend a so high amonunt of financial resources to put under its payroll a so high number of media operators.

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    Post  TR1 Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:19 am

    One nitpick:

    "Испытания новых ракет проводятся с использованием самых совершенных программ компьютерного моделирования, в которых используются результаты, получаемые как в ходе наземных, так и летно-стендовых испытаний"

    The results used for the computer modeling, are actual 9m69E launches? How many are we talking here?

    Just curious weather the 70% hit to kill ratio was modeled mostly by simulation, or is a ratio derived from repeated tests.
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    Post  Mindstorm Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:39 am

    The results used for the computer modeling, are actual 9m69E launches? How many are we talking here?

    Just curious weather the 70% hit to kill ratio was modeled mostly by simulation, or is a ratio derived from repeated tests.


    Experimental live engagements tests ,conducted at Karpusin Yar against different ballistic target in different conditions ,compose data basis.

    Computer models, using those validated data ,allow the reproduction of even the most complex, rare or odd situation (where actual live tests would become problematic for financial or temporal questions).

    In both experimental tests and simulations the results was virtually identical.


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    Post  Austin Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:52 pm

    Mindstorm as usual excellent post on this topic Smile

    Just some points

    Pk of any missile can never be 1 it will always be 99.9999 etc basically as many 9's after the decimal.

    So if Pk of 9M96 is 70 % against BM it is quite decent though not impressive , you would have to fire 4-5 missile at a target to ensure 99.xxx percentage of hit probability.

    Indian AAD that was tested and i posted video above has a kill probability of 99 % against BM target.

    The advantage of 9M96 missile is that it has a ARH seeker besides HTK very effetive in dealing with low flying cruise missile or target that flies low to be below radar horizon of S-400 radars , they can fly on top and can just dive down at the target using ARH technique.

    TR1 9M96 was always a HTK system surprised you didnt knew it



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    Post  TR1 Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:22 pm

    Austin Mindstorm means the 70% is a Hit-to-Kill percentage, the rest 30% is still a lethal engagement.

    I guess against conventional ballistic tactical missiles 9m96 has near 100% HK (well, in testing environment at least).

    TBH I always re-read the SAM stuff, forget it, re-read it again, kind of a cycle Smile .
    THats the problem with being interested in the whole military-technical spectrum.
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    Post  Mindstorm Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:24 pm

    Pk of any missile can never be 1 it will always be 99.9999 etc basically as many 9's after the decimal.


    Yes Austin , this notation is absolutely correct if we assume a number of attempt toward infinite the Pk will be even substantially inferior to 99,9999 % ,in particular for the effect of instances of mechanical/electronic failures happening ,on average, in the hundreds of launchs.



    So if Pk of 9M96 is 70 % against BM it is quite decent though not impressive , you would have to fire 4-5 missile at a target to ensure 99.xxx percentage of hit probability.


    Just for this reason i have provided the correct information.

    70% was NOT the 9M96 neutralization's percentage of the target tactical ballistic missiles, 70% was the percentage of direct hit ,by part of the 9M96 interceptors on the warhead of the those ballistic missile, in all the remaining 30% of the instances 9M96 has always destroyed its target through the shaped detonation of its warhead both in actual tests and in simulated "electronic" enagagements.

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    Post  Sujoy Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:04 pm

    medo wrote:Any informations, how Vityaz project is going? It's all quiet.

    Right now the emphasis is on the 6 Pantsir units which will be joining shortly . The chances of the ADF receiving Vityaz before 2020 is slim coz the S 300Ps has at least two more years to go before it's service life comes to an end.So,I am assuming that the action will pick up from 2014 onwards . The Vityaz ( Ballpark figs .10 9M96E missiles or two 9M100 short-range missiles replacing one 9M96E missile) will primarily complement the S 400 and S 500 and the Morfey .Development of the new missile was held up as sufficient funding was not made available for the development of a new missile . This issue was supposed to have been solved by the middle of this year .

    Poliment-Redut , which is derived from the land-based Vityaz air defense system and uses the 9M96 medium-range air defense missile will probably be tested by the end of this year ( Almaz Antei's General Director Vladislav Menshikov had said in May this year).
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    Post  Stealthflanker Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:32 am

    Austin wrote:I was watching at videos of PAC-3 test and I found the missile to be very fast , check the videos

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT6DzaG_658


    Can some one tell me which is the fastest missile ,PAC-3 ,S-300PMU1 or S-300PMU2 ?

    BTW here is a video of Indian BMD test , the missile seen is AAD and has a top speed of Mach 4.5

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAyRhIH-9cE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX7NCLTqQ

    You no mention "9M82M" ?

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