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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    Post  Arrow on Tue May 01, 2012 12:47 pm

    and they've never displayed the 53T6.

    But there are many photos of 53T6 missile during the tests.

    So Russia now product all version of 48N6 missile ? or only 48N6DM version?

    Better version video from Avangard factory.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAmGrSF60z4
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    Post  George1 on Tue May 01, 2012 2:23 pm

    I have also another question for S-400 now. 40N6 missile has ABM capabilities? Or it is intended only for AWACS?
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    Post  Mindstorm on Tue May 01, 2012 4:11 pm


    I have also another question for S-400 now. 40N6 missile has ABM capabilities?

    If it will have ABM capabilities ? ?? Very Happy Very Happy

    The increase in performances offered by "40N6" will be ALMOST COMPLETELY in its ABM capabilities !! The other main target are hypersonic maneuverable offensive means



    Or it is intended only for AWACS?

    This is another of the titanic idiocies often found in open media ( mostly the western ones Rolling Eyes ), ALL missiles operative or to be S-400 have all the capability to destroy very ,very, very easily the most maneuverable aircraft now operative worldwide ,retaining contextually even an huge edge of unused potential !! (aerodynamic targets are considered ,by far, the most easy targets among all those engageable by the system).
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue May 01, 2012 5:28 pm

    Well it's been quite while

    Mindstorm wrote:

    Or it is intended only for AWACS?

    This is another of the titanic idiocies often found in open media ( mostly the western ones Rolling Eyes ), ALL missiles operative or to be S-400 have all the capability to destroy very ,very, very easily the most maneuverable aircraft now operative worldwide ,retaining contextually even an huge edge of unused potential !! (aerodynamic targets are considered ,by far, the most easy targets among all those engageable by the system).


    Aaah.. now i see why an aircraft maker in deviant art was very mad and being so cynical at me when seeing one of SAM i made have range of 400km. Laughing

    err.. a question .. is 70G or above maneuverability achievable for SAM ? and more importantly will such maneuverability required for today's aerodynamic targets ?.. perhaps future UCAV which..since it's unmanned it can turn up to 10-12G or even 20.

    And i ever heard that there's a rule of thumb that for a successful intercept a missile have to be capable to pull at least five times "G's" a target can...thus to intercept 9G maneuvering target the missile have to be capable of pulling at least 45G's.

    The maximum maneuverability of 5V55R and 48N6E family published so far quotes around 20-30G's which.. by above mentioned "rule of thumb" equates that both missile family can only engage targets maneuvering at max 4-6 G's.

    So how to get around that rule of thumb ? can guidance laws reduce the G requirements for successful intercept ?
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    Post  Mindstorm on Tue May 01, 2012 8:11 pm





    err.. a question .. is 70G or above maneuverability achievable for SAM ?


    Actually Surface to Air Missile have huge inherent advantages against interceptor air based in maintaining integer the greater maneuvering potential for end game interception .
    The main reason for that is that some crucial design compromises , among which : structural stress limits, aerodynamics surfaces' s optimization and G-charge threshold and the addition of some other integrated course-correction systems (such as those dynamic gas based), are mostly dictated by the starting aerodynamic conditions at the release and by the expected variety possible trajectories of interception .

    A SAM delivery happen always in an energetic neutral system and its interception trajectory, stage burn time and separation and flight pact course variations are always the most energy efficient, moreover a ground based missile has entire order of magnitude less stringent limits in order at : weight ,volumetric space available and cooling potential,all elements that codify for substantial increases, among others, in structural resilience to G solicitations and far greater warhead's destructive potential.


    Naturally the design of an Air To Air missile follow completely different requirements and imply the acceptance of completely different compromises .
    A similar missile could be delivered at 1000 or, instead, 16000 meters of altitude, by an aircraft cruising at 450 km/h or instead 2700 km/h , while in flat cruising, or while carrying out a 5G or ,instead, an U-turn at 5000 m. (the structural layout opted in theirs design define also the limits conditions of release present for any AAM ), against a target 3500 m higher than the shooting aircraft or one 4000 m lower against ground clutter etc..etc..; moreover the possible trajectories of interception and the linked variables of thermal variation, atmospheric rarefaction factor, compression threshold etc... are simply infinite and totally incomputable from the beginning.



    The maximum maneuverability of 5V55R and 48N6E family published so far quotes around 20-30G's

    No comment.



    So how to get around that rule of thumb ? can guidance laws reduce the G requirements for successful intercept ?

    A maneuverable/very maneuverable aircraft carrying out a successful evasive maneuver in the time window useful for initiate it ,can consistently cause a typical modern medium range air to air missile (coming at Mach 3 ) to miss by 10 - 20 meters , the same maneuver ,even if completed against a 48N6D class missile with much less "compromised" aerodynamic surfaces and coming at more than double this figure (offering therefore less than half the time window useful at complete the entire evasive maneuver ) would leave the aircraft well within the assured neutralization area of its warhead Wink Wink.

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    Post  George1 on Tue May 01, 2012 10:53 pm

    US ABM systems as i have noticed are based only on kinetic projectiles
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    Post  Austin on Fri May 04, 2012 1:45 pm

    Known details on S-500

    http://vpk.name/news/68627_zagadochnyii_s500_izvestnyie_podrobnosti.html
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri May 04, 2012 5:00 pm

    George1 wrote:US ABM systems as i have noticed are based only on kinetic projectiles

    and that's what SM-3 for carrying that kinetic kill projectiles to the target.
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    Post  TR1 on Fri May 04, 2012 9:55 pm

    http://voutsen-cv.livejournal.com/259535.html

    Great pics of an S-300 unit. Some very interesting photos of the large raised positions (the big grey structure) that are often found in these semi-permanent S-300 locations - they can mount either radar or even the launcher unit.
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    Post  SOC on Sat May 05, 2012 3:29 am

    TR1 wrote:Some very interesting photos of the large raised positions (the big grey structure) that are often found in these semi-permanent S-300 locations - they can mount either radar or even the launcher unit.

    Those are used around Moscow to elevate the 64N6 or 36D6 radars, the 64N6 commonly being found atop one of these structures. 40V6 masts are used for the 30N6 radars, and no, they do not elevate the TELs.
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    Post  Arrow on Sat May 05, 2012 1:14 pm

    f some other integrated course-correction systems (such as those dynamic gas based),

    Dynamic gas based control system works only while the rocket motor is still burning ?

    So now in Moscow defense system is 4 S-400 Battalion ? including S-300PM
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    Post  Austin on Sat May 12, 2012 10:52 am

    Thanks to Mr_Blob ( via mp.net )

    Full interview http://www.vedomosti.ru/library/news/1731358/rakety_izgotovleny_zhdem_vyhoda_v_more_vladislav_menschikov?full#cut

    Vladislav Menshchikov: "Missiles are made, waiting for release into the sea"

    In the "Almaz-Antee" know what techniques should be developed to neutralize any threat, said, "Vedomosti" Group CEO Vladislav Menshchikov

    Concern PVO "Almaz-Antei" 10 years ago became the first major vertically integrated structure in the defense industry, bringing together designers and manufacturers of air and missile defense. Group CEO Vladislav Menshchikov in an interview to "Vedomosti" told how the development of new air defense system, the cost of new construction works, and what the potential defense of Iran, as well as whether it makes sense to create weapons based on new physical principles.

    - It has been 10 years since the establishment of Concern PVO "Almaz-Antei." How much over the years managed to maintain and develop scientific and industrial potential concern, what the problem was solved, but it was not possible?

    - At the time of group companies that have entered into it, are in dire financial and economic situation, and to withdraw them from bankruptcy and return the assets that are derived from plants, it took much time and effort, serious and hard work. Concern has been one of the oldest, and largest in the country, integrated structures. We were the first at the corporate level, faced with the need to solve the whole bunch of problems faced by the company 10 years ago, the Russian military-industrial complex. Then our main achievement was the rescue of key industry companies from bankruptcy. If the decision to create a group was taken just a few weeks later, a number of companies, without which the defense industry, defense would be unable to perform its tasks, would have been lost. For example, the plant "Vanguard" or the Obukhov plant.

    Later, thanks to export orders, and in recent years and due to the rapidly growing state defense order has begun development of the sector and its modernization. We are proud that the industry is maintained and developed. Of course, the concern was the formation of certain errors and failures. But given the fact that we were the first, it is inevitable. Those who came after us, might have been using our expertise. As for the unsolved problems, I would point out the need for further rejuvenation of staff, reducing its average age, as well as improving productivity and increasing overall production volume. If you compare our gross and especially the relative performance with the best companies in the world - namely, to such a comparison should be sought - that we still have a lot of work.

    - What kind of air defense and theater missile defense is now creating the concern?

    - We are actively analyzing the foreign work on the creation of an aerospace attack. Concern, the Ministry of Defense and other federal agencies have sufficient information about the foreign samples of weapons that are already in operation or will come into service in the near future. Based on the evaluation of these means of attack formed requirements and the means of defense. We have an understanding of how to neutralize these threats, what equipment we need to develop. A number of research and OKRovskih work has already been opened, a number of plans for the opening. More details to talk about it for obvious reasons is impossible.

    - One of these advanced systems, the C-500, will be entirely new or developing existing systems?

    - In "pyatisotke" will be used principally new elements, though at its creation will be used and existing technical solutions. The system is created on the basis of a certain task, and with this in mind, selected the appropriate solutions. Of course, there will be new missiles and new radars. The system perspective and a good new features.

    - And at what point are working to establish a system of "polyment-redoubt" for the Russian Navy?

    - At the stage of preliminary tests. But to their full completion, we need the support of the complex into the sea. This year, according to all estimates, the test must be completed. The missiles are manufactured, they are there, waiting for release into the sea.

    - How do you evaluate the activities of the group in the area of ​​training? Do we need this kind of government support?

    - No government involvement in efforts to consolidate the personnel in the defense industry fundamentally impossible to solve this problem. Today, when the labor market there are plenty of temptations to involve young people in the industry is very difficult. Tools for this task can be very diverse. One could, for example, to resolve the issue with military duty for people who want to work in the defense industry, inviting them to the appropriate version of the alternative service. Or send the guys in those troops, where they will work with them to the familiar technique of production which they themselves operate, or a college. Of course, need more social support. At the level of concern we have about six years there is a practice that we have every year according to certain criteria, select 150 specialists and issue them special scholarships. A good form of support - it grants the President, we have about 200 young workers group received these scholarships.

    - How to change the basic economic and financial performance of the group?

    - In 2010, the revenue of enterprises belonging to the group was 107.5 billion rubles., On the basis of 2011 - 110.9 billion in profits from sales of the main production grew by 35.8% in the overall profitability of sales in 8.63%. Revenue management company group decreased by 10.7 billion to 16.5 billion rubles. This is due to the fact that the shipment of a large consignment of property to one of the foreign customers has been moved from the end of December 2011 on the I quarter of 2012, but we are very liable to become the current year, during which sales volume can increase three-fold.

    - What kind of investments are planned in the coming years in the modernization and upgrade of production? What is the ratio of equity group, credit and budget in the various programs?

    - We have three major investment projects - the construction of two new plants in Kirov and Nizhny Novgorod, and our regional North-West Center in St. Petersburg on the basis of the Obukhov factory. The total cost for the construction of new factories is estimated at 41 billion rubles., 15 billion of them - cost money. The cost of the project to create the Northwest Regional Center - 15 billion rubles. Center is created entirely by our own funds and borrowed our credit. The basic idea of ​​the project - the concentration of all enterprises in St. Petersburg on the same site Obukhov factory. The project is in an advanced stage of implementation, launched the first phase, relocation is one of the plants. The project is very interesting and promising.

    - Why do we need new capacity, would not have enough current?

    - First, the state armaments program plans exceed existing power group, and secondly, on the old production equipment to produce a new generation of technology is impossible.

    - A number of old samples of air defense equipment, such as S-125, an active modernized enterprises of Belarus and Ukraine. What is the position of concern on this issue, as far as promising the market?

    - Yes, these products, such as "Pechora-2T" Belarusian companies, "Tetrahedron", have their own niche in the market. We are modernizing "Pechora" not actively engaged, in our country at this company works, "Defense Systems". Private enterprise group engaged in this work as subcontractors. We had a version of - "Pechora-2A" - and even had a contract with a foreign customer. But our experts did not have much enthusiasm for the modernization of "Pechora" and eventually we went to this segment. We are more interested in working on radar systems or the modernization of "Wasps", "Square", "Thor" and several other public facilities. In general, the situation is so that Belarusians and Ukrainians offer a solution, at a cost of less expensive, and we - a cardinal from the technical side. In terms of quality and performance of our received proposals for modernization are more effective.

    - One gets the feeling that the group remains in the nomenclature of the parallel development of similar systems, inherited from the Soviet practice: the S-400 and C-300V4, "Buk-M3" and "Hero," "Tor-M2" and "Morpheus."

    - I would not say that this parallelism. Each set designed for specific tasks and has a particular consumer. They are not perfect analogues, and they have a different purpose, so that the MoD and ordered all of these systems. It is only from the standpoint of the layman the impression that there is duplication.

    - How do you assess the state of the plant "Avangard" and brain CB industries - GSKB (Head System Design Bureau)? The media had a number of publications, referred to the complete collapse of these enterprises.

    - "Vanguard" - one of the plants on which at the time the group has initiated bankruptcy proceedings. The workshops ran down the roof, there were puddles on the floor, machines were dismantled. In the early 2000s. the company produced five or six rockets per year. But the export contracts have helped to save the plant, now the company is not just active, and reaches the level of maximum load. This plant will be maintained even after the launch of the company in Kirov. The situation in GSKB stable, there is the main goal - integration and synthesis of various schools, it is very trivial, very painful process, but the only way you can stimulate the development of technical solutions to unify and optimize the loading of all developers.

    - Is there any concern for the positive effect of creating Command Aerospace Defense?

    - The final assessment is too early to give. We believe that the creation of such a unified command is justified and appropriate, but it happened recently, so you have to wait a bit.

    - Whether the promising development of air defense systems based on new physical principles? U.S., for example, recently closed its program to create a missile defense systems with the use of air-based laser.


    - Fully these works are not covered. The Americans did not achieve the expected results, but the technological groundwork and received technical solutions used in other studies. We have also conducted similar studies, and we believe this work quite promising.
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    Post  medo on Sat May 12, 2012 12:13 pm

    I think tests of Polyment-Redut is connected with finishing and testing of Admiral Gorshkov frigate. I hope it will be soon finished. Any one knows how work Redut in Steregushy class corvettes (different and smaller radar)? Soobrazatelny is now operational, so it was for sure tested.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon May 14, 2012 9:52 am

    I think tests of Polyment-Redut is connected with finishing and testing of Admiral Gorshkov frigate. I hope it will be soon finished. Any one knows how work Redut in Steregushy class corvettes (different and smaller radar)? Soobrazatelny is now operational, so it was for sure tested.

    I can see no logic in waiting for Redut/Poliment tests before testing Redut in the Steregushy... I would assume they are testing them now.

    The news about testing Redut and Poliment this year suggests the Gorshkov Frigate will hit the water soon and go straight to testing... which is very good news.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu May 17, 2012 2:19 am

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/228416.html

    Antei-2500 testing @ Kapustin Yar. Brand new system, very likely for Venezuela.
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    Post  medo on Thu May 17, 2012 3:35 pm

    TR1 wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/228416.html

    Antei-2500 testing @ Kapustin Yar. Brand new system, very likely for Venezuela.

    Maybe S-300V4? Russian army ordered them.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu May 17, 2012 7:22 pm

    Nah, Almaz-Antei itself identified them as the Antei-2500.
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    Post  SOC on Sat May 19, 2012 2:13 am

    Pretty sure I've located the third Moscow S-400 battery in the northwest of the city.
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    Post  Austin on Mon May 21, 2012 5:49 am

    Interview with Deputy Director General Vitaly Knyazev Almaz Antei
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    Post  Austin on Fri May 25, 2012 8:20 pm

    Not Russian but some nice video of recent SM-3/Aegis test

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEGwKkM-zc4


    I always wonder why russians do not release video of their ABM test or IR/Thermal image of these test like US does , Even India releases video of such ABM test.
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    Post  SOC on Fri May 25, 2012 10:20 pm

    Austin wrote:I always wonder why russians do not release video of their ABM test or IR/Thermal image of these test like US does , Even India releases video of such ABM test.

    But there are videos available of 53T6 firings.

    Maybe:

    Their tests are really just proving flights to prove the system still works, whereas the US/Indian events are actually trials or new systems?

    There's other stuff going on at Sary Shagan they don't want to risk showing?

    There's simply nothing to gain from showing their tests in greater detail?

    They aren't using thermal/IR imaging to track things?

    They want to avoid the asinine armchair analysis?
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    Post  Austin on Sat May 26, 2012 6:46 am

    SOC , I agree there could be lot of may be's

    But they have done a huge number of test i read that even S-300P/V was tested against 60 odd BM targets , we know from Almaz-Antey report that the 40N6 has been tested atleast 15 times against targets.

    Its unsual to have no videos of these test other that the missile just lifting off .......even India is very liberal when it comes to ABM test.

    The only valid conclusion to draw here is they are every paranoid.
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    Post  SOC on Sun May 27, 2012 6:10 am

    Austin wrote:The only valid conclusion to draw here is they are every paranoid.

    1. They also like to keep details of operational systems that aren't being exported under wraps. Hence why the R-33S didn't get publicly displayed until just recently.

    2. If they show detailed footage, you can calculate the impulse of the rocket motor, the acceleration, the size of the weapon, and use that to work out performance characteristics. You could model the entire envelope of the weapon with a pretty limited set of data, and if you have the envelope you can model performance and start to develop countertactics (or discover that countertactics would be pointless, and start working on other ways to defeat the system).

    Since there's no requirement for loads of footage to be released, those two reasons are very good ones to keep it hidden. It's not so much paranoia as it is information denial. Why does the US release stuff? Probably two drivers behind that: 1) we all know they aren't keeping anything secret for a damn to begin with, and by government I mean the actual political structures like Congress (and by we I mean people actually living here, the rest of the world has a hilariously perverse and often mind-blowingly idiotic idea of what our government does in secret), and 2) it's basically the opposite of reason 2 above, they like to show off capabilities. Helps to get more money that way when you have these really neat videos to show, especially if something is getting exploded.
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    Post  Austin on Sun May 27, 2012 7:08 am

    Perhaps you are right.

    Even US manages to keep some things secret exactly for the same reason or even cover an entire project , i think its called black project in US whose existence is also denied and very little if anything is known about it , if i am not wrong US has about 30 % of its project classified as black project.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 27, 2012 7:19 am

    Why would the Russians be paranoid?

    The west is their friend, and since the fall of communism in their country they have been welcomed with open arms by the international community... not.

    Just because they are paranoid it doesn't mean the whole world isn't out to get them.

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